OT: nootropics ('smart' drugs)

[Nutt]

Or, I’m thinking of acquiring a drug habit... images/icons/wink.gif

Well, in keeping with my current better living through chemistry (pheros) mentality, I\'m a little tempted to experiment with these. I’m not normally the sort of person who uses (prescription or non prescription) drugs, but this stuff looks like it might be worth a quick try, if only out of interest. The theory is (and this is only form information on web searches, tomorrow I should be able to access some research papers on the subjects) they aid the memory and especially learning process by increasing the number of cholinergic receptors in the brain. Its usually taken in combination with choline.

Personally I’m most interested in Piracetam (commercial name Nootropil by UCB ) and Lucidrill (centrophenoxine). Ill probably also take some extra Choline If I try it.

cost wise that would work out as about $45 a month, which means Id have to be fairly impressed with the results to keep doing it, but is low enough that I am curious to try it.

It’s not FDA approved, but (as far as I can make out) is an over the counter med here in europe.
The supplier I may use is QHI (\"http://www.qhi.co.uk/home.asp\")

if your intrested check out ceri (\"http://www.ceri.com/noot.htm\")

Life extention foundation (\"http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/piracetam.html\")

and Im currently about to trawl through this collection of articles. (\"http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/piracetam.html\")


And please bare in mind that I’m not normally the sort of person to go for hype, but a lot of the testimonies etc: do seem like that. the way I see it, if its got no proven major side effects Ill give it a shot.

So anybody used or done any research on these? I figure Phero users are the type who would go for these things. images/icons/tongue.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Im looking to try Phosphatidylserine which natural oil that makes up most of the brain mass and it has been shown to stop, slow and even reverse brain aging in some cases. Check it out in vitacost.com . tell me how everything goes.

[Bruce]

I\'ve been ordering from QHI since they opened a few years back. They are a great company; never had a problem. I\'ve been using Nootropil, Lucidril, and Hydergine steadily for more than five years now, and more recently Idebenone. Very happy with the results, worth every penny, and not really all that expensive. Two things my wife never begrudges me spending money on are my gym dues and smart drugs.
Cheers,
Bruce

[Whitehall]

Like Bruce, I\'m a fan of smart drugs also. The PS (phosphatidylserine) is a definite thumbs up - no noticable side effects, over the counter (a least in USA) and a good sense of better mental functioning. It does take a while to work so give it a couple of weeks.

Piracetum is a wash for me - little noticable effects unless one is at high altitudes. The various compounds that contain or breakdown into DMAE are not too satisfactory - too nervous or agitating or something. Not a net positive for me cosidering the cost.

Hydragene is a definite positive and the foundation in my mind (pun intended!) Mental clarity and mental stamina improve noticably.

One of my favorites is vinpocitine - works quickly too.

However, for all smart drugs, I won\'t recommend them to younger people - barring specific shortcomings.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Choline and Phosphotidyl serine are either part of or all of phospholipids (PL\'s for short.) PC (phosphotidyl choline) is widely abundant in eggs, or soy. PS, I dunno a good food source, but I could find one for everyone in a day or two. Serine is of course an amino acid. Things to also look for are sphingomyelin (Big PL in the noggin) also implicated in raft formation, or energentically favorable membrane organization. I can\'t comment on increased mental capacity, but I do know about the cmpds that are being talked about.

[Nutt]

Yeah, I noticed that in an one of the articles I read, A large egg contains about 200 - 250mg choline, a tablet contains 250mg, suggest average intake ( through an average persons diet) is about 800mg and \'they\' suggest bumping that up by 250mg - 1000mg.

So for choline (and some extra protein) you could just add 2 eggs to your daily diet. The tablets are pretty cheap though ($6.68 for 100 * 250mg) So Ill probably shove a pack in with the order images/icons/smile.gif

Here’s a routine I may try ( again, I’m going to double check some more reliable source’s on (side) effects today If I have time)
Compiled by the web research I did. I’m pretty young so its probably overkill. Ill probably phase in the supplements to see which are having effects ( if any! images/icons/smile.gif ) I’m mildly dyslexic, which one of them has been used to treat in (AFAIK inconclusive, haven’t found the paper) trials, so maybe they will be effective for me.

I’m still not entirely sure if theses are prescription or not here in the UK, but im fairly sure there not ( although melatonin being a hormone, I’m surprised, even if it is synthetic)


Lucidril (DAME)
1-4 caps (@250mg)

Piracetam 1600 - 2400 per day. initial loading dose may require >4000mg
2- 3 caps

Vinpocetine
2 - 4 caps (@5mg

choline suggested 550 Mg max, 300 in egg. absolute max 4000mg
1-2 per day

Melatonin
1 per day before bed. cycle use occasionaly. Should cause deep sleep


If you do come across any of the more interesting products at QHI (\"http://QHI.co.uk\") in foodstuffs, I’m sure a few of us would be interested. I guess eat a healthy diet is simple advice that would achieve it, but I never have time to cook fresh veg etc: and my breakfast and lunch (if I don’t skip them!) consists of cereal images/icons/smile.gif plus I hate nuts, a valuble source of many of theses.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nutz ]

[Bruce]

I forgot about Vinpocetine. Very cheap and I think you can get it over the counter in the US now; bought some at Target or somewhere on a recent trip. As recommended I take choline every day too. Gotta run... I\'m in charge of the kids tonight. More later.
B

[oscar]

Smart (Drug) Guys,

Having very little knowledge on the subject, I\'ll not be judgemental nor attempt to draw parallels.
Wasn\'t it an attempt to synthesize seratonin that led to the birth of LSD?

I guess what I\'m really asking is how sure you are that this stuff is safe in the long term.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[Bruce]

Wild,

I am probably one of the most cautious people in the world when it comes to health. I don\'t smoke, eat meat or junk food; rarely drink etc. If you want to ruin a party, just invite me, but I am convinced that smart drugs have not only NOT had any bad effect on my health but are actually \"good for me\" healthwise as well as smartswise. I think it was about 5 years ago a couple of my friends over here where telling me about the smart drugs they were taking. I still remember exchanging e-mail on the subject. My position was: if they are not herbs or vitamins of some kind I am not taking them. Then I scored a copy of the book Smart Drugs and Nutrients by Dean and Morgenthaler, read it cover to cover, and have been taking them ever since. I am still VERY skeptical about the \"contributions\" of modern medicine and avoid taking \"pills\" at all costs, but I now believe there is a new and budding science of longevity medicine that has distanced itself from mainstream deadend alopathic medicine and deserves a place alongside its partner herbal/nutritional medicine. Keep in mind I was in my mid 40s when I started. I\'m all for caution, but at 45 you don\'t really have the luxury of waiting 50 years to find out where this technology is headed.

Oscar, jog (don\'t drive) down to your local bookstore and get a copy of Ward Dean\'s book, Smart Drugs. There is a Part 2 out now and a part 3 on the way I have heard, but you want the original book to get the basics on the items that have been discussed here.

Cheers,
Bruce

[Whitehall]

I believe serotoin was known well before LSD was invented. Its one of the earliest identified neurotransmitters.

The chemist who invented LSD was the same man who invented hydergine - Dr. Albert Hoffman. He has been quoted as saying that hydergine is about equivalent to 25 mics of acid a day.

That said, most (but not all) of these have very impressive safety records from long use. Hydergine is almost 50 years old and has been very heavily prescribed, for example. The nootropics like piracetum are really analogues of natural metabolic mitachondrial energy sources only a little stronger than might exist in nature - \"supercharged brain food\" is a good analogy.

There are some that I\'m leary of - for example, vasopressin.

I\'ve been buying from International Anti-Aging Systems on the Isle of Man. However, they cannot supply customers in the UK or the EU but here in the US of A, they\'ve been quite efficient and reasonable.
www.antiaging-systems.com (\"http://www.antiaging-systems.com\")

[Nutt]

Looking through some papers, even with high doses of (mostly nootropil) there are few immediate side effects, some people have mild headaches or stomach upsets, pretty much typical of any drug. There are no studies of long term affects, but that’s quite common for things like this, and not necessarily worrying. most reports suggest a a increase in memory and learning efficiency or left / right brain connectivity. As a cure for Alzheimer’s it doesn’t look too promising, but that has little bearing on effects on healthy subjects.


It seems that, as mentioned, although many suppliers are UK based, due to many of these drugs being prescription only or simply no licensed in the UK I may be out of luck, although I do have a couple of leads that may allow me to discover a supplier. technicaly these are mostly illegal perscription drugs here in the UK(many are easier to come by in mainland europe though).

oh, and QHI seem to have the best prices I can find although http://nubrain-store.com/ (\"http://nubrain-store.com/\") have excellent Vinpocetine 10mg (\"http://store.yahoo.com/nubrain-store/vin10.html\") prices.

I would say if your interested you have nothing to lose from trying. be sensible, and see if they work for you. they don’t seem to work in all people ( from testimonies) but that may be as some of the web reports have less reliable sources (i.e. the street or friends) than most ofus would.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Serotonin is derived from tryptophan. There are two enzymatic steps. The first adds a hydroxy group to the 5 carbon, and the second removes a CO2. From serotonin there is a crap load of things that are made. My 2 cents.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Just to clarify, the body doesn\'t want these things around forever. So it has ways of getting rid of them, commonly know as metabolism. Serotonin is either processed and excreted, or made into melatonin, the cmpd that makes us tan. I figured that someone might be interested. Could be wrong.

[Chemist]

It\'s funny that this topic should come up. This was a hobby of mine about 11 years ago. DMAE, PhoshaditylCholine, DLPA, Omega3, all that good stuff.

Before I got into all that, I wasn\'t a chemist - 10 years later, I got the degrees and here I am.