So where's SOE for Women?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I really think a woman could get away with wearing SOE as it is -- especially as an evening scent.

No copulins, but my guess is that the pheromones in the formula wouldn\'t be that off base for a woman to wear, either.

[jvkohl]

I\'ve found that only about 1 in 100 women have the combination of pheromones that most excites me, and it is a very definite mix that correlates well with all the aspects of \"body type\" that I would anticipate: for example waist to hip ratio; and breast size (not too large BTW).

Since it took so long to get comfortable with a commercial \"male\" approach, I don\'t anticipate immediate success in developing a copulin mix that will be effective. Unless, that is, you can help me find enough 17-24 year old women who are not taking oral contraceptives and who are willing to wear a T-shirt for a few days and then send it to me for analysis. By enough, I mean 100 or so to reach statistical significance.

But, I suspect that some colleagues might beat me to such an analysis anyway. Truthfully, I don\'t care who does the work, I just want to see if the results match up with Astrid Jutte\'s from Vienna. Dev Singh has made preliminary headway with his report that fertile women smell best to men--which is exactly what could be expected and the reason he did the study--based on other mammalian studies.

I reckon Scientist is right, however. As I recall, about 80% of fragrances incorporate musk (both women\'s and men\'s fragrances). That\'s why earlier reports suggest that SOE may be effective as a unisex product. Won\'t know until some women try it, however, and give us a verdict.

Still, based upon Dev Singh\'s report and others (especially Harold Persky, circa 1977) I can predict that the ovulatory testosterone increase in women is what gives their pheromones a more musky appeal, and this also helps to explain the commonality of musk in fragrances--from a biochemical perspective.

Besides, the design for women wouldn\'t be much different. Maybe adding a little acetic acid would be all it would take. Too soon to tell.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

SOE sounds like great stuff for men to wear. Is there any plan to make SOE(w)? I\'d so love to see a concentrated product that\'s REALLY designed for women.

Laney

[Bruce]

There was a very interesting study done in Switzerland (I believe it was) using T-shirts. I wrote a brief review on it in a back issue of the Pheromone News. I thought it came off amazingly well (the research). On a similar note, I was lucky enough to have the opportunity (honor) of sniffing one of James Kohl\'s perfect 10 lady\'s research T-shirts last summer, and honestly the results were striking. I remember him handing me the plastic bag with the T-shirt in it and feeling like I should say something encouraging just to be a polite guest, but after taking a whiff, all such thoughts were driven from my mind; amazing effect. There is no doubt in my mind that a controled study with T-shirts will yield great results. Now, getting that into a bottle is going to be the hard part.
Go for it,
Bruce

[jvkohl]

Yes, females do produce OL; NONE; and RONE, but quantities are reduced compared to men Still, we can expect that when androgens (like testosterone) increase, so does a woman\'s androgenic pheromone content. Since testosterone peaks with ovulation (most fertile point in the menstrual cycle) androgenic pheromone output also would peak. It\'s a little more complicated than that, nonetheless. In order to get the testosterone peak, first estrogen levels must rise and remain high for 48-72 hours, which causes positive estrogen feedback on luteinizing hormone, which increases and causes the testosterone peak. So, this means that estrogenic pheromone content also increases at about the time of ovulation (peak fertility). If you understand what I\'ve said so far, you can also understand why an evaluation of female pheromones is difficult, and why it is unlikely that anyone will find the perfect combination of compounds to mimic the best natural female odor. Astrid Jutte probably got as close as anyone will during the next few years--but she\'s been so busy with other efforts that she hasn\'t spent any more time on pheromone research.

Sorry ladies, that leaves you somewhat pheromonally challenged compared to the guys--especially now that they have SOE :-)
But there is still hope. Honestly, I\'d forgotten that Bruce had sampled the shirt worn by a 17 y/o ovulatory female during 3 days of her peak fertility--but as he said the result was quite striking. As I said, however, it\'s hard to get enough 17-24 y/o\'s who aren\'t taking oral contraceptives (which flatten out the estrogen levels and prevent the estrogen induced LH and testosterone surge) and who are willing to participate in such a study. But if Laney can do it, we might collaborate. The funding is the primary issue. I\'ve never written a grant proposal, have you? On the other hand, if I had someone who could help supply enough subjects, I might get one of my colleagues to attempt grant funding--or possibly even to attach the project to a current research endeavor.

Laney, let me know more about the possibilities. You might even have another grad student or two--or even some undergrads who are looking for a project or better yet for thesis material. Bruce (please give her my contact info) will let you know how best to contact me, or I\'ll watch for your subsequent posts.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m confused. I looked at the pherox patents, and it looks like estrogen-based pheromones cause electrophysiologic responses in males, not androgenic pheromones. Do females even actually produce significant amounts of androstenol and androsterone?

By the way, I\'m in graduate school at UCSD. If the work is funded well enough to pay the students and buy shirts, I might be able to get you the T-shirts and help with the statistical data analysis. Would asking 17-24 year old women to sleep in them for a few nights work?

Laney

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James,
I\'m not up on any of the pheromone literature. Are there any faculty at UCSD (Uiversity of California, San Diego) who are intereted in the field?

Laney

[oscar]

J.V.K.,

I don\'t think you need to reinvent the wheel here. Sounds to me that the ladies would be happy to buy a version of SOE with the CURRENT phero components, but with a more distinctly feminine scent. (SOE/2?).

Then, maybe work some copulins in down the road, if practical, following the research you spoke of. (SOE/3?).

Ladies, do you agree?

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sounds like a good product idea once the sales start to take off and the product proves itself to be amoung the best. Im waiting for a little more feedback before i order it but will eventually give it a go just for the experince and feedback to the forum etc. Me the human guinea pig.

[Whitehall]

Let\'s talk about the target market for SOE/w.

Do 17 to 24 y/o fertile females really need more pheromones? Most don\'t need too much help in finding a mate but might seek \"competitive edge\" as men do. They certainly are a big part of the market for current fragrances.

I think that women in their 40s + could really use the product. Many women of that age would love to smell like an 18 y/o again. It would also have the most leverage on their sex lives. Their husbands would probably be eager to buy it! If it wold put some spark in mature relationships (like viagra did) it would really sell.

[oscar]

Whitehall,

I totally agree. Older phero-wise guys like us would probably jump at the chance to get some for our SO(s), with (preferably) or even without Copulins.

I\'ve even got a great fragrance suggestion. Pikaki with a hint of Ginger. I find the scent of Pikaki to be intoxicating, but as hard as I tried, I could not blend it into a fragrance that was even marginally masculine without burying it, nearly to the point of losing it altogether.
With a little Ginger, at a ratio of 5 to 1, Pikaki to Ginger, this is a wonderfully delicious feminine scent that would appeal to all ages of users and targets alike. images/icons/wink.gif

In fact I think it\'s time to pull out the E-Oils and Chem-Set and get to work on it!
If the results and reviews are favorable, maybe I\'ll make enough to spread a few tiny samples around to anyone willing to PM me a mailing address.

Oscar images/icons/laugh.gif

[jvkohl]

Laney,
Yes, I\'m sure there are faculty at UCSD, but I need to access a site that\'s currently down to get the info. If I don\'t get it to you in the next week, please remind me.

I\'ve now heard from several ladies who say they want to wear SOE; it has unisex appeal as Bruce first learned. The affect on women who wear it will be similar to when a man wears it to attract a woman, namely she will feel more comfortable, and perhaps even slightly more aroused just during a normal day. Cutler, my nemesis, has written about this in a book called \"Love Cycles.\" This was before the recent report that the axillary secretions (i.e., pheromones) of men change LH levels and mood in women. So, even though I don\'t think much of her marketing and wild claims, at least Cutler has some valid information to share in one of her books.

17 to 24 year old fertile females produce plenty of attractive pheromones. But, just like the tall, dark, and handsome males--females, whatever their body type, might be interested in a little enhancement of their mood. Still, women in their 40\'s to 50\'s stand to benefit most from adding SOE to their environment. The components are extremely likely to help regulate their menstrual cycles, lessen symptoms of PMS, and even ease women through menopause. The 17 to 24 y/olds who are on oral contraceptives really miss out on the pheromone experience. Their estrogen levels are high throughout the cycle (unless a triphasic pill is used). By removing the cyclic high and low of estrogen levels, the pheromone experience is decreased. Wedekind\'s study said it best: when women go off the pill, they\'re liable to find themselves with a real \"stinker,\" which in this case means a guy whose genetic profile is too similar to the woman\'s, and whose pheromones are more like those of close kin than of a genetically diverse lover.

[Whitehall]

Then again, women don\'t smell the same all over. Head hair, neck, breasts, underarms, and of course, genitals all have something different and distinct, breasts especially. That\'s another reason to be skeptical of copulins as THE female pheromone. But the memories of those scents makes me want to fall in love again.

To compound the complexity, a woman will change their smells over the course of a love affair. From early courting and sparking to the peak of sexual intoxication - the \"tizzies\" - and back down through the stress of breakup - the signals just keep coming and adapting.

Hair color is also a well known predictor of aromas. One Roman writer (?) attributed a special \"scent magic\" to the the Teutonic women (blondes?) that caused their men to be so loyal and faithful - but maybe that was just sour grapes for some unlucky Legonnaires.

I think what I\'ll do is pick up a bottle of a \"pure\" copulin scent and have some friends try it out.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

hey Whitehall
where are you going to find a whole bottle of copulins? I\'d sure be interested too.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dalesalsa,

PCC (Passion Copulin Concentrate) from Stone Labs. is copulins and nothing else.
Of course, it\'s scented and diluted, but I think if you REALLY want to try it, I heard some women are finding PCC quite effective on them.

I\'ve never personally heard anything about guys trying on copulins. But I did hear that cops are supposed to raise your testosterone level.
However, I don\'t know if it\'s even necessary for younger guys who naturally produces tons of testosterones.

[Bruce]

I\'d really like to know where you can get some strong copulins samples too. I have yet to smell a copulins product that smells like what Astrid J. and James K. say it is supposed to smell like. It is supposed to be pretty nasty stuff in strong enough form to get the job done. I really think it is a science that hasn\'t panned out in the commercial realm yet.
Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Its all interesting direction and im sure it will all work in the long run its just a matter of us finding out where everything fits in the scheme of things and gettting more people involved in this thing, ive got a feelig itts all about to take off massivley and over the top of anyones expectations.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Quite honestly, if the copulins are based on short fatty acids, it will smell really bad. Think of goats and rotten eggs. I don\'t want to say that is what they will smell like, but short chain fatty acids do smell like that. Uggg. Sorry, worked in a GC lab as an undergrad. These things were used as standards, and quite frankly, they don\'t smell good. But, I could be blowin\' in the wind, I do not know what copulins are made of.