Just say no... human VNO

[jvkohl]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=16733333&dopt=Abstract


n
" In humans, the VNO does not exist, at least not in its complexity."

What do you think this means to

people who market pheromones based on human VNO research/reactions?

JVK

[Friendly1]

According to the abstract:




...Histochemically, [the nasal passage] is lined with a remarkable pseudostratified epithelium, the nature

and significance of which are still unclear. Recent studies indicate that pheromone-like compounds are most likely

registered at the level of olfactory receptor cells, rendering the chemical information system more independent of

specific organ structures.

Do you think this means that people who have their VNOs surgically removed

are still capable of responding to enhanced pheromone signatures?

Have any studies been done on pheromone

receptivity in people with modified or removed VNO versus people with unaltered VNOs?

I ask because I may end up

having some sinus surgery and I have been wondering what sort of impact that might have on me.

Just curious, at

this stage.

[slickracer]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............

intresting.

there has to be something thats picking up these pheromones tho, VNO or not.

[jvkohl]

Have any

studies been done on pheromone receptivity in people with modified or removed VNO versus people with unaltered

VNOs?


None that I know about, and not likely to be done since the focus of human pheromone

research is moving rapidly away from the issue of the human VNO. However, this could easily end up being decided by

judge or jury in cases that seek financial "damages" from plastic surgeons who are not familiar with the concept of

human pheromones.

JVK

[jvkohl]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............ intresting.

there has to be something thats picking up these

pheromones tho, VNO or not.

Yes, otherwise women would not respond with the typical mammalian

luteinizing hormone response to axillary secretions from men, and men would not respond to copulins with the typical

mammalian testosterone increase. I've been saying this for several

years.

JVK

[Lor]

everything contributes

to why we might eat something...
sight,smell,what we have heard about its properties,memories, not just what it

tastes like. maybe we are picking up 'mones on several subtle layers...those aware of their sensitivity to the

difference of each person's signiture probably see it like a 6th sense...

[Lor]

Yes, otherwise

women would not respond with the typical mammalian luteinizing hormone response to axillary secretions from men, and

men would not respond to copulins with the typical mammalian testosterone increase. I've been saying this for

several years.

JVK
(http://)
JVK, in your experience

is it possible to control the amount of testosterone increase, or is it individual no matter how much

pheromone you use to increase it? same with leutinizing hormone......

[maxo-texas]

Any increase will be affected

by natural feedback loops.

For example.

Increase testosterone -> increases estrogen -> turns down

testosterone production.

LEF sells some products that can block the conversion but some other feedback loop seems

to kick in after several months and they stop working.

Clearly females periods falling into sync indicates some

airborne chemical having a major physiological effect.

Pheremones may not work.
Or they may not work on some and

work well on others.
Or the products that claim to have pheremones may really be water.

---
However... you can

TEST your testosterone and free testosterone levels with blood tests.

1) Go to LEF and buy the appropriate test.

Take the form they send you to a local blood draw site which will send it to QUEST diagnostics. There is your base

level.

2) Buy another test. Apply copulins. Get the test done again (at the same time of day). Are your

testosterone levels different?

I recommend LEF since it is an inexpensive way to get blood tests and you won't

have to argue with your doctor or insurance company about them.

(LEF = life extension foundation--

www.lef.org)

You will have some tricky bits.

1) exercize effects testosterone.
2) If you are

around sexy women flirting with you, that is going to raise your testosterone level.

So make sure that those

conditions are the same for both tests.

Love to hear your results.

[jvkohl]

JVK, in your experience

is it possible to control the amount of testosterone increase, or is it individual no matter how much

pheromone you use to increase it? same with leutinizing hormone......

The hormonal changes are

referred to as unconscious effects, as in a cause and effect relationship. Pheromones "effect" hormones, and this is

not something that it consciously controlled. Pheromones also have an unconscious affect on behavior that is

associated with their effect on hormones. This "affect" is unlike the cause and effect relationship between

pheromones and hormones. Their "affect on behavior" can be consciously controlled.

All this is detailed

further in a review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this

year.
I'm fairly certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very

technical.

JVK

[jvkohl]

You will have

some tricky bits.

1) exercize effects testosterone.
2) If you are around sexy women flirting with you,

that is going to raise your testosterone level.

So make sure that those conditions are the same for both

tests.


Testosterone levels peak at approximately 0730 and hit their low point at approximately

1930. So, if the time of sample collection varies (as it usually does) your results may mean nothing, despite

attempts to control for other variables--like stress, food ingestion, psychotherapeutic drug use, etc. To attempt to

show individually significant changes would be very difficult. That's why researchers try to involve as many study

participants as they can find/fund, and also attempt to control the variables. Simply put, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

Or, if you do, realize that you might need to read a few books on the topic before you can interpret the results,

which are virtually meaningless at the individual level. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea for men over 50 to

have their testosterone level checked if they're having specific symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, etc. Studies

are now finding many more instances of low testosterone levels than were predicted only a few years

ago.

JVK

[luxveritas]

Pheromones

"effect" hormones, and this is not something that it consciously controlled. Pheromones also have an unconscious

affect on behavior that is associated with their effect on hormones. This "affect" is unlike the cause and effect

relationship between pheromones and hormones. Their "affect on behavior" can be consciously controlled.


This is what I just realized through testing of EW. You have said it in a much more eloquent manner. The complex

psychological evaluations people have made about different pheromones seem to be an over kill. Pheromones cause

hormone changes. Hormone changes affect behavior but are only one component in the grand scheme of things.

[Lor]

You will

have some tricky bits.

1) exercize effects testosterone.
2) If you are around sexy women flirting with you,

that is going to raise your testosterone level.

So make sure that those conditions are the same for both

tests.

Love to hear your results.
maxotexas,
i wonder if a sexy woman flirts with me, and i am a

girl, will it still raise my testosterone level :think: .....

All this is detailed further in a

review article that will be published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality later this year.
I'm fairly

certain that the review will help clarify issues like this, though it is very technical.

JVK

thanks

jvk,looking forward to it (and hoping i can wrap my head around the technicalities)

[maxo-texas]

That would be an interesting

study to observe, Lor.

Jvk,
Yes- I'm well aware of the daily cycle. I'm a teste cancer survivor and the one

cowboy finally got tired last year so I'm using androgel for supplementation.
It worked *fabulously* (anxiety was

gone, night sweats gone, fuzzy thinking gone, and felt like a unicorn again). Then my doctor lowered the

prescription when I went on Medco. So I argued it with him and went in *late* in the day for that particular blood

test.

And as I said above in my parent post "Get the test done again (at the same time of day)."

My point is

this. If copulins raise levels by 50% very quickly- then you should be able to see a very noticable affect if you

control for the other variables (hell- get two tests on the same day with copulins between them).

However, all

your points are valid-- there are many factors involved and a given person's sample size == 1 person as opposed to

a formal study with 100 people that controls for a lot of variables.

For now.. I was willing to drop 160 on

products here and I'm testing them out. I think I've seen some results. I'm a bit interested in adding NPA and

a copulin next (the thought being to use the copulin once things are fairly well underway to intensify things).

[jvkohl]

maxotexas,
i wonder

if a sexy woman flirts with me, and i am a girl, will it still raise my testosterone level :think:

.....

Theoretically, in women, the effect of pheromones from the opposite sex on hormones is on

luteinizing hormone/follicle stimulating hormone ratios that favor increased estradiol levels that prompt a

luteinizing hormone surge accompanied by an increase in testosterone -- all of which depend somewhat on menstrual

cycle phase in the absence of oral contraceptive or hormone replacement use.

All of the above contribute to

men's overall lack of knowledge about the complex behaviors of typical or atypical women. By the middle of next

week I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and

through three marriages.

JVK

[luxveritas]

so testosterone based

pheromones indirectly increase testosterone in women?

[jvkohl]

so testosterone

based pheromones indirectly increase testosterone in women?

I wouldn't say that, but it's okay if

you do. The complexity of the issues involved allow for no direct conclusion without further study. For example,

which testosterone-based pheromones and which women, under what conditions?



JVK

[xvs]

I don't have the references handy,

but recent studies have found that in humans the pheromone receptors have migrated to the olfactory epithelium.



This was demonstrated through several methods:

- pheromone receptor RNA was found in olfactory cells

there, showing that the receptors are being produced in that area

- studies were done with people who had

naturally blocked (with polyps) or artificially blocked olfactory centers, and it was verified that they did not

exhibit the hypothalamus pheromone response as shown via PET scans

- this test was repeated on people whose

VNO was naturally or artificially blocked, but whose olfactory epithelium was not blocked, and it was verified that

they did still exhibit the same hypothalamus pheromone response as people with no blockages.

Those seem like

rather conclusive results. Forget the VNO (at least in humans)!

[tim929]

By the middle of next week

I will have figured out all of women's behavior, I think. But I've been thinking like that for many years and

through three marriages.


If you manage to pull this off and figure out a way to control the urge to

shop,men all over the world will worship the ground you walk on.

[tounge]

Time for a bump.

[maxo-texas]

Since june,
I've

experimented with a314 (nothing super obvious).
I've become absolutely convinced SOE is the real deal.
Same for

A4.2 or NPA (i.e. -none).
Same for copulins (EW) on me.

I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good

results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me).

[jvkohl]

Time for a

bump.

Also time for some others to do google searches and find:

"Pursuant to a joint venture

between Demeter Fragrance Library, Inc. and Human Pheromone Science, Inc., we present the Natural Attraction

Collection by Demeter Fragrance Library, demonstrating the powerful combination of aromachology and synthetic human

pheromones."

--------------------------------------------------------------
If the joint venture led to a

product "spinoff" why is there no mention of the human VNO in how "Natural Attraction" products

work?
--------------------------------------------------------------

If a new marketing ploy drops the old

VNO marketing ploy, doesn't this say something about marketing ploys in general? Or maybe I'm just biased by

"real" science.

JVK

[bronzie]

i think both approaches could be

interpreted as marketing ploys, those that believe it to exist and include it in thier marketing and those that

advocate that it doesnt and include it in thier marketing

[Gegogi]

The odd thing is, most consumers

don't give rat's tail about the how and why of human pheromone receptors. I don't! Okay, maybe a little. They

only care if the product works for them, i.e., enhances their social and sexual status. So weren't not talking

about any real market advantage for the lack or presense of a VNO.

Most marketing is a massive waste of

resourses. I TiVo out every TV ad and automatically ignore magazine, web and roadside ads. I bet most new pheromone

users rarely get further than "gets you laid 'n respected at work" in product ad copy. Further info about the VNO

or receptors in our main olfactory organs will only be read by a few rather geeky consumers.

[bronzie]

Most marketing

is a massive waste of resourses. I TiVo out every TV ad and automatically ignore magazine, web and roadside ads. I

bet most new pheromone users rarely get further than "gets you laid 'n respected at work" in product ad copy.

Further info about the VNO or receptors in our main olfactory organs will only be read by a few rather geeky

consumers.

what is tivo?

i hate tv ads, web ads are just as annoying, magazine ads...well

depends on the ad, i like photography and style, so a nice chick in a nice dress is eye candy in a glossy mag is ok,

and a magazine is not as intrusive as audio or visual marketing. the amount of garbage that gets thrown at us via tv

and radio etc makes me sick!

i havnt turned on my tv in years, all these people buying these fancy tv sets,

giant plasma etc etc, for what??? to watch rubbish tv ads....and game shows...

i think im going to become a

hermit and leave society...

[bronzie]

the vno is as defunt as tits on

a male, even if it exists, big deal!!!!! it doesnt tickle my fancy.

[tenaciousBLADE]

This is a long post, so if you're not interested in the order offered at the

title, just skip to the part saying "Anyway, I DO have my own question".
maxo-texas, please do not skip

:box:


Originally posted by maxo-texas:

I'm experimenting currently with Beta-Est with good

results during gf's period (she reports her discomfort goes away when she's around me). Didn't I see you

post on some other thread (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16955), that you discovered

it was androstAnone you've been testing? :think:


Originally posted by

maxo-texas:

Sigh.

I've been testing this too and thought it was beta-est.

The results have been

very good- especially around her period. From her feedback, her discomfort goes away very quickly after she gets

together with me since i've started wearing this around her. I'm just asking for other reader's sake...

no harm ment:o



Some order for the VNO curious:
Now, I've seen three different

threads discussing if the VNO is a functional or non-functional organ. I may be wrong, but IMHO, some people might

need some order here, and I find no better time than the now, to organize, so...

ecxept for this current thread,

I've seen one specific post, that is (currently) the last one on the second thread talking about this, AND at the

same post there's a link to

the third thread (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16827&highlight=androstanone) talking

about this topic. Here's that post:

Originally posted by jvkohl, on a thread named

Hot Damn, Androstanone! (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16955):

Research

results have repeatedly shown that what has been repeatedly referred to as the human VNO is merely some vestigial

pit(s) that are not connected to anything and not necessary for induction of pheromonal effects in humans. Non-human

animal studies also show that the mammalian VNO is not necessary. I've cited several studies (recent) in postings

to "Pheromone Research." If you want to debate the issue, its time to cite any recent study for support of this

long-outdated conceptualization of how pheromones work. And perhaps you will

declare any marketing interests you might have that focus attention on the VNO.



JVK
(http:///)




Originally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)
JVK, check out my responses to

the initial posting on androstanone. It is proven to act at the VNO. (although I know you dispute the relevance of

the VNO, I strongly beg the differ)



http://www.love-scent.com/for

um/sh...t=androstanone (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16827&highlight=androstanone)

Don't be mad people... I was simply reading all these and

thought it might help other readers a great deal, if they get some order :o



Anyway, I do have my

own question.

JVK... I personally, have not the slightest background about the VNO. Before reading in

the L-S forums, I had no idea the VNO is even a word, or it even existed. Back then I couldn't care less.
But now

that I've read all three of the mentioned threads, I'm very curious about it. It does seem to mean something

whether it's functional or not.

So I ask you this:
Assuming that indeed, the VNO is a NON-functional organ

(btw, in that case, I recon that it's a physical remnant of a time when it did work:think:?)...

How

DO pheromones work, if not through the VNO?
And I'll be more specific, just to prevent a missunderstanding

of the question, or an answer which concerns only a variation of the question (as this question can be interpreted

in many ways):
How does our sense of smell, input into our brain, the pheromonal signature of another? (be

that signature as it may)
Is it our brain that separates the signature into different type of pheromones, and

tells us what they are? Or is it rather that the different pheromones are percieved (i.e. inputed) separatly; and if

so: How?
You mentioned before, if I'm not mistaken, that the pheromones work (in some levels at least), without

a thing to do with their smell (nor the percievers' sense of smell).
If so, am I to understand that the nose, and

any type of smell-sensatory we might have & I might not be aware of), can sense not only smell, but other types of

chimical compounds & their construction (such as pheromones & others)?
[I SO want the answer for this to be a "Yes"

:D].
Feel more than free to add any other informarion you might feel to be relevant to the question. But

please do try and answer the sub-questions mentioned.JVK, I want to thank you for keeping this debate alive,

and trying to answer with sciense & reason :)
I really appritiate you reading this far (that goes out to anybody

still reading this lol). And anybody who can give me some sensable, understandable, and reasonable answers...

PLEASE... do :cool:

This topic is way interesting. I, personaly, thank averybody here that gives (or has given)

some answers\questions\views on the matter :thumbsup:

[tenaciousBLADE]

Didn't see it before, but here it

is:
http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=

1695 (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16959):run:


And guys, about ads... I agree with bonzies' approch... I don't even own a tv. I just see

whatever cultural candy I want on my comp. Like Samurai Champloo for example :D
I do wish I'd have a plasma

for my comp. though lol.

And gegogi, I don't really care about the VNO much either... as for the `mone ptoducts

out there.
But I AM interested in it scientificaly. Aren't you? ;)

[Gegogi]

But I AM interested in it

scientificaly. Aren't you?

Nope. Well maybe mildly curious. I try to spend my main energy making music,

images and love...

[Watcher]

my head hurts after reading thro

some of those articles but my understanding is much higher now then when i started using pheromones so good work

jvkohl

[tenaciousBLADE]

Nope. Well

maybe mildly curious. I try to spend my main energy making music, images and love...
LOL... Nice one...
I

might start doing the same ;)

[jvkohl]

How

DO pheromones work, if not through the VNO?


Any questions that are not answered, or issues

that are not clarified in my last review--full text available

at:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_.pdf

should be answered/clarified in my next

review, which will be available in the forthcoming issue

at:

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/Toc_views.asp?sid=BHPDKF23AUXU8G4E0XCM5PH7V06J8NPF&TOCName=J056v18

n04_TOC&desc=Volume%3A%2018%20Issue%3A%204

I spend more time on research and writing reviews than

commenting to the Forum in hopes that peer-reviewed publication might be considered a better source of

information.

Wish I had more time to do both.

JVK

[jvkohl]

i think both

approaches could be interpreted as marketing ploys, those that believe it to exist and include it in thier marketing

and those that advocate that it doesnt and include it in thier marketing

I'm not advocating that the

human VNO doesn't exist; I've repeatedly cited research (biological fact) that clearly states it doesn't exist.



I looked up the definition of "ploy" to be sure I could compare strategies designed to disorient, to

facts--like biological facts, for example. I don't see how biological facts could be interpreted as a marketing

"ploy". Perhaps you will elaborate.

JVK

[bronzie]

I'm not

advocating that the human VNO doesn't exist; I've repeatedly cited research (biological fact) that clearly states

it doesn't exist.

Therefore, your Advocating it doesn't exist. By definition, it means your

supporting others research.




I looked up the definition of "ploy" to be sure I could

compare strategies designed to disorient, to facts--like biological facts, for example. I don't see how biological

facts could be interpreted as a marketing "ploy". Perhaps you will elaborate.

Within the context of

marketing a product, the word ploy can be used even when the ploy is based on hard scientific facts.

Things

do not sell themselves as some people would like us to believe. We do it through ploys, tactics,

stratagies.

Think of Asprin, great product, hard science behind it, the PLOY a few years ago was that it was

good for you for circulation and your heart, well that was the PLOY back then by manufacturers, drug stores, etc, we

now know this is not the case.


JV, im with you on this one, personally I don't give a rats a** if it

does exist or doesnt, and since I have used pheromones with great success on women who have had major nose

reconstruction I believe the VNO probably plays little or no part in the equation.

In the end I just want to

get laid.

[bronzie]

and just to clear something up,

I never said your ploy was to market SOE by your "advocating" or citing researches that the VNO does not exist,

however, others might interpret that this may be a market strategy of yours, because you stand out from the crowd

(other pheromone manufacturers) who constantly include the VNO as the prime pheromone receptor in humans, in thier

marketing.

that concept guy is hopping on one foot with claims that the VNO exists and is functioning in

humans, im waiting to hear at what he has to say...

anyway, to be honest, im more concerned about nasal hair

then about the VNO

[tenaciousBLADE]

Any questions that are not answered, or issues that are not

clarified in my last review--full text available

at:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_.pdf

should be

answered/clarified in my next review, which will be available in the forthcoming issue

at:

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/Toc_views.asp?sid=BHPDKF23AUXU8G4E0XCM5PH

7V06J8NPF&TOCName=J056v18n04_TOC&desc=Volume%3A%2018%20Issue%3A%204 (http://www.haworthpress.com/store/Toc_views.asp?sid=BHPDKF23AUXU8G4E0XCM5PH7V06J8NPF&TOCName=J056v18n04

_TOC&desc=Volume%3A%2018%20Issue%3A%204)

I spend more time on research and

writing reviews than commenting to the Forum in hopes that peer-reviewed publication might be considered a better

source of information.

Wish I had more time to do

both.

JVK
(http://)

OK, Ive read a part of that

review. I intent on reading the rest in the future, but it'll take some time, and it's not my top priority (even

in my free time).

I got to admit that it wasn't easy reading this :frustrate. I have no scientific background;

besides being a leading student in my class, which was named "the science class" of my school.

Indeed, as a

student in that class I was exposed to a relatively-high level of science in an early age (for the most, I got to

visit & get lectured frequently at one of the best science institutions in my country - which is very well respected

in that arena).
BUT - it was only highschool after all :run:


So about half of the words in that review were

quite hard to understand.
Still, I did get a lot of info from that review (what I read of it). And from what I've

seen, I'm not convienced that the VNO is "not existant" per se.
Maybe non-functional... but even that is not

prooven, or doesn't seem to be :think:
Yet, I am convienced that the chance of it being a

non-functional organ is greater than the chance of it being a functional one.

If I may (if not, then feel free to

request an edit here... either from me or a moderator - I'll understand & won't argue :o), I want to quote a part

of that review, stated under the VNO title.

However, recent data have shown that the VNO also exists in

adult humans [28]. Monti-Bloch and Grosser [29] found the adult human VNO responds to picogram amounts of human skin

pheromones with depolarization. These findings suggest, that the human VNO may function as a pheromone

detector as it does in other mammals. However, so far there is

no evidence that the human VNO is connected to a functional accessory olfactory

system.
That part just quoted, from the review you refered me to none-the-less, led me to

believe that the VNO is indeed existant. I agree, the last phrase in that quote, shows that it probably is

non-functional, as do some of the following parts in the review; but to say it is non-existant? [Maybe you simply

ment non-functional? or... non-exsistant in the complexity found in other mammals? :think::o]

But although it's

greatly unlikely to happen... Who's to say that evidence of the VNO being connected to a fanctional accessory

olfactory system, are not to be discovered in the future? :blink:

In conclusion:
I personaly, with the little

bit of care (or rather curiosity) I have for the subject, conclude the VNOs' non-functionality in humans - an

axiom.

JVK, I appreciate the reference, and hereby thank you very much for it :D
It fed my curiosity

well:thumbsup:. I hope others (in the lack of the scientific background to make it a more readable review) feel the

same way :)


P.S.
At least you bring some background to your opinions :thumbsup:

[jvkohl]

Think of Asprin,

great product, hard science behind it, the PLOY a few years ago was that it was good for you for circulation and

your heart, well that was the PLOY back then by manufacturers, drug stores, etc, we now know this is not the

case.


Thanks for elaborating and clarifying in your last two posts. The statement above caught my

eye because I bought into what you say was a PLOY. I'm still taking one "baby" aspirin every day, since I never

read any follow-up to what was presented as medical wisdom--and, as some people know, I work in the medical

profession. What did you read that led you to believe the effect of aspirin on circulation was a ploy? I've read

that even if you merely think you are having symptoms of a heart attack or stroke, you should take an aspirin--just

in case.

JVK

[jvkohl]

OK, Ive read

a part of that review...
...[AND] I am convienced that the chance of it being a non-functional organ is greater

than the chance of it being a functional one.

Thanks for taking a look and letting others know.

Pertinent studies since the 2001 paper was submitted further attest to the lack of any functional human VNO--and, so

far as I know, there have been no studies since 2001 that say either that humans have one, or that it is functional.

I've cited some of the studies in my forthcoming review that say we don't have one.

What I would expect to

see from marketers who say their products work via the human VNO, is at least one recent reference to research that

has been replicated--anything that even vaguely suggests that human pheromones work via the human VNO.

So

far as I know, everything published on the human VNO tracks back to what now appear to be a couple of vestigial

"pits." I'm not saying that these "pits" don't exist, since they've been observed by many researchers. What I'm

saying is that "vestigial pits" do not support the presence of a human VNO, and there is even less support for a

"functional" human VNO.

What marketers are saying is that these vestigial pits are proof that humans have a

functional VNO that somehow processes their products' ingredients and somehow elicit behavioral change.



Here's what will happen next to marketers whose claims are based on activation of a functional human VNO.

They will find out (from me and others) that there is no functional VNO, and then change their claims merely by

eliminating mention of the VNO. The "Natural Attraction" product line, which is a spin off of the "Realm" product

line has already done this. And, regardless of what research on human pheromones really shows, marketers will pick

and choose whatever they wish to support their ridiculous claims.

People who come to the Pheromone Forum

should expect more than just marketing claims.


Who's to say that evidence of the VNO

being connected to a fanctional accessory olfactory system, are not to be discovered in the future?

:blink:

So far as I know, no one is researching anything related to the human VNO, so future

discoveries are highly unlikely.



P.S.
At least you bring some background

to your opinions :thumbsup:

Thanks for noticing.

JVK

[bronzie]

We are obviously lost in

translation...

Im using the word ploy within the context of marketing, the word ploy originates from the word

employ, and it has different meanings depending in what context it's used in.

Anyway, Aspirin is great, I

use it for headaches all the time and a few of my older friends use it as a preventative drug for the problems you

mentioned (stroke, heart attack) however, I did read that it may have negative effects on the arteries, by weakening

them, it also has adverse effects on the stomach walls over prolonged use over many years which could cause ulcers

and Chiropractors say to avoid its use altogether over a prolonged period of time (but who listens to chiropractors

anyway) because it weakens bones and joints, apparently it has a dissolving type effect on calcium.

Have you

heard of this? Pycnogenol, apparently it has similar therapeutic qualities to Aspirin without some of the side

effects. In Europe, Doctors prescribe this to patients with heart problems, although it’s available over the counter

as a non prescription drug. It’s supposed to strengthen artery

walls.http://www.pycnogenol.com

[jvkohl]

We are obviously

lost in translation...

No problem at this point, thanks.



Have you heard of

this? Pycnogenol, apparently it has similar therapeutic qualities to Aspirin without some of the side effects. In

Europe, Doctors prescribe this to patients with heart problems, although it’s available over the counter as a non

prescription drug. It’s supposed to strengthen artery

walls.http://www.pycnogenol.com

When I get more free time,

I'll look into this further. I particularly like the fact that they have the links to research citations, and that

these are formatted well.

JVK

[tenaciousBLADE]

I don't usually use (or

need, for that matter) any medication. But there's a product I prefer over Aspirin, and it's called Advil.
Then

again, it doesn't seem to me that using Aspirin (or alikes) in a regular basis is such a great idea.
I say: Just

let your body figure it's own way (take into acount that I say this when I'm just 22yrs young ;)).
It reamins of

course your choice to make :)


Anyhow JVK... About the usual marketers out there...
I agree that a marketer who

shows me reaserch is defenetly preferable. With that said, I don't mind (I even prefer it) when a marketer who had

a fictional explanation of his products work, realizes his mistake and changes the explanation to the more

newly-recognized one. It does however, make him loose some credability; specially if he's done this kind of

thing more than once.
Still, what really matters is that it works... and not so much how. It helps to know

how, but it's not `a must`:run:

[Gegogi]

My American Heritage Dictionary

states that ploy means:


ploy * An action calculated to frustrate an opponent or gain an advantage

indirectly or deviously; a maneuver: [Perhaps from employ, employment (obsolete).].

I'm guessing the

"obsolete" meaning derirved from employment errorded long ago in American usage. Perhaps it's retained it original

meaning in British usage?

As for marketers showing research, I believe for the masses it only serves to confuse.

Facts and features must be simplified and presented in a few words and phrases, e.g., "get laid and be the man." For

a few geeks they can always bury a white paper in their site or provide links to scholarly research that supports

their product.

[bronzie]

I use Australian English,

although my guess is it’s not much different from British English or American English, with regards to the word

ploy, the American meaning of this word changes depending in what context it’s used, as I have discovered searching

around the net.

Interesting word...

[Mungojerry]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

JVK is merely

citing the work of scientists in the field which believe the VNO is non-functional.

As far as

"Archetypical Hybrid, why is so certain the VNO is functional! " - this is due to

privileged literature in my possession.

Re JVK's comment:


Your attempt to compare -- "extensive" and "more current" "literature" -- to published/cited

research findings is what's wrong. It's precisely the problem with the entire human VNO approach, which can be

summed up as "We have information that you don't have and we're not going to give it to you, so you can't

possibly replicate our findings, but we're right and you're

wrong."

Unfortunately that is precisely how it stands at the moment, as well as

is this how it is in the corporate world. I cannot violate an iron-clad contract (the NDA) and thus cannot reveal

the "privileged information" which supports my claims.

The NDA will not be in effect forever,

and when it is no longer applicable I promise to disclose information to which I am permitted.



Mungojerry, that abstract was a component in the project - I did not realize this initially.

The article referenced
"mammalian bipeds," specifically relating to primates and humanoids.

[bronzie]

As far as "Archetypical Hybrid, why is so certain the VNO is functional! " - this is due to

privileged literature in my possession.

People who have seen Aliens and UFO's

believe they have 'privileged information' that they cannot share with others.

Your marketing is going

well...:rofl:

[belgareth]

People who have

seen Aliens and UFO's believe they have 'privileged information' that they cannot share with others.

Your

marketing is going well...:rofl:
Perhaps you aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of

NDAs myself and understand his position completely. Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off

the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later, it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to

look pretty silly, to say the least.

[Mungojerry]

444444444444444444444444

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Perhaps

you aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of NDAs myself and understand his position completely.

Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later,

it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to look pretty silly, to say the least.

Thank

you very much for the support - I am pleased that at least someone understands my disposition.

Also,

neanderthal men tend to look rather silly without even having to speak.. However I especially agree, and dislike

when people speak of nonsensical bullshit, just to have something to say.

Lastly, you will all have access to

the information when I am able to produce it - The NDA expires in two years from six-weeks ago, relative to much of

the information requested herein. However it may become null-and-void before this time.


"If there are no

stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask

questions?"
-Scott Adams

That's a damn good point! I'll have to remember this one...




Firstly, I have to take your word and you could be anybody!

Bruce will soon verify my

status, I expect. However, don't just "take someone's word," but rather think for yourself and make an educated

decision.

I'm going into a grey area here by answering your inquiry, but your intelligent questions deserve

some entertainment.


1a) In that last study were links between the VNO and the hypothalamus found in

specifically human subjects [not just primates or "humanoid" creatures!].

There were never any studies

performed directly which conclusively confirmed the neural route by which the VNO is connected to the brain in

humans, however this neural network does certainly exist, based upon logical deduction from results which have been

demonstrated. The known literature which is public domain, of or relating to neural pathways from VNO sensory axons

to the hypothalamus, or hippocampus refers merely to "humanoids," and not homo sapiens directly.


2) How

do you respond to the study involving the VNO blockage? Are, as I hypothesised, different pheromones involved, or do

you have some other explanation.

This may be a sensitive question, as this was a direct component in the

project, relating directly to the new pheromones. Please allow me to confirm with those higher up the hierarchy than

myself, of my permittance to address this question.

[Gegogi]

The article referenced


"mammalian bipeds,"

Sheesh, ust don't utter such words in a bar while attempting to charm the opposite

sex. I'm sure your HEC will be slapped silly.

[jvkohl]

I

cannot violate an iron-clad contract (the NDA) and thus cannot reveal the "privileged information" which supports my

claims. [/FONT]

My review will be published within the next few months in the Journal of Psychology

and Human Sexuality. In this peer-reviewed journal, I detail every developmental step of the pathway involved in sex

differences in the processing of pheromones, and the sex differences in response to human pheromones (including

hormonal effects and behavioral affects.)

In retrospect, perhaps I should have claimed to have privileged

information for a few years before submitting the paper for publication. After all, I'm not making any money on the

publication--even though the review will be concurrently published in a book. Since I have colleagues that I can

name in many different parts of the world, I could even have claimed to have an international team of experts

involved.

Obviously, I have no marketing sense. All these posts with no anonymity. Anyone could check whether

I'm being truthful, or not--simply by checking my domain.

JVK

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Sheesh,

ust don't utter such words in a bar while attempting to charm the opposite sex. I'm sure your HEC will be slapped

silly.

LOL.. point taken :thumbsup:

[belgareth]

Once more, debate is fine. Lets

cut the personal attacks now. You are welcome to argue but I am not going to allow any further personal attacks.

Please keep it civil.

[Mohammad Shah]

Testosterone

levels peak at approximately 0730 and hit their low point at approximately 1930. So, if the time of sample

collection varies (as it usually does) your results may mean nothing, despite attempts to control for other

variables--like stress, food ingestion, psychotherapeutic drug use, etc. To attempt to show individually significant

changes would be very difficult. That's why researchers try to involve as many study participants as they can

find/fund, and also attempt to control the variables. Simply put, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! Or, if you do, realize

that you might need to read a few books on the topic before you can interpret the results, which are virtually

meaningless at the individual level. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea for men over 50 to have their

testosterone level checked if they're having specific symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, etc. Studies are now

finding many more instances of low testosterone levels than were predicted only a few years ago.



JVK
(http://)

So, Mr.James, If older men would like

to increase their natural pheromone levels, what do you recommend...I read that Zinc helps...any comment on this,

Sir?

[Mungojerry]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[Mungojerry]

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[tenaciousBLADE]

I've been out of the forums for merely a few days (and I'm probably ganna be out all this

coming week too); and I see a lot has been added to the discussion since I last saw it.

I don't have a lot to

say, my opinion remains the same: I have no idea if the VNO is functional or not, but for now, untill further

study is presented to the public, the chance of it being functional seems to be bigger than the

other.

Still, this discussion is very very interesting to me. And for now, all I have left to say are a few

thanks:
1) To Mungojerry: You seem to have found the right questions and wording to lead this discussion to be more

specific.
Not that I count that much, but you've gained a lot of respect in my book for these last few posts:) So

thanks for your input.
2) To HEC: for finally giving some details, and stopping the generalization.
It's

perfectly ok if you have details you can't reveal; still, giving some details made your credability go up a knothch

:o
I want to clarify something here, in case it matters... I never saw your words as a lie or a marketing ploy (I

saw the marketing as an option, but never claimed it to be the true option). But now that you've explained yourself

a little further and gave us some details, reading your posts seems much more interesting. Please keep being as

specific as possible:) It's always good to have both sides of the topic, when having a non-finished discussion.
3)

Well, JVK... don't worry, marketing is not everything in life & you already at least have one great product with

good marketing... I've tried it yesterday for the 1st time... it's very good as a standalone indeed :thumbsup::D

[jvkohl]

So, Mr.James,

If older men would like to increase their natural pheromone levels, what do you recommend...I read that Zinc

helps...any comment on this, Sir?

I'm sure that I've commented on this before, exercise increases

testosterone and there are reports that sun exposure also increases testosterone via effects on vitamin D. I'm not

familiar with zinc.

JVK

[jvkohl]

... after a

long period of studying psychology & neuroscience, I have developed a deep distrust of any strong claims made by

scientists [even in published material in reputable journals] working in either of those fields! Most

psychologists, in my experience, are still too quick to jump to conclusions.

Many of my colleagues

agree with you. Any commercial interest tends to make them much more skeptical of what you publish. In this regard,

I will note that Richard Axel shared the Nobel Prize in Physiology and/or Medicine with Linda Buck, who I've

mentioned before. Dr. Axel has a link from his lab's site to . Furthermore the link is

under the heading "retail aroma" with the URL linked from "Scent of Eros".



http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/neurobeh/axel/links.html

This does not mean that Dr. Axel

endorses my product, but it is evident that he is at least somewhat familiar with me and with my work--as well as my

commercial interest.

Despite my commercial interests, I am also still well-received at the conferences I

attend--especially Association for Chemoreception Sciences, where the absence of anyone associated with research

either promoting the human VNO approach, or their "discovery" of human pheromones has been noted.



JVK

[jvkohl]

Do you findings

definitively preclude the existence of other potential pathways involved in pheromone processing?

No,

my focus is on detailing the known pathway from human pheromones to gene activation in gonadotropin releasing

hormone nerve cells in the medial preoptic area of the anterior hypothalamus (i.e., gene-cell-tissue) and thus to

activation of an organ (i.e., the brain) which is part of any organ system involved in behavior. I use the

luteinizing hormone response as an example of the gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway linking the social

environment to genetically predisposed behavior.


If so could you elaborate on what

particular evidence suggests that the pathway you have identified is the only one in

existence?

There may be another pathway--but it certainly lacks detail. The

gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway is a basic tenet of social neuroscience, which is why there was so much

initial interest in identifying human genes that might code for human pheromone receptors in the VNO. If researchers

don't believe there is a human VNO, they will not continue to look for pheromone receptors there, and I don't know

anyone who's still looking.


I can't find a link to the full text/abstract of the VNO

blockage study, so I’m afraid I can't check this myself right now; however, what I would like to know is what

pheromones were used in this experiment and whether or not you believe the results can generalise beyond those

particular pheromones.

The abstract is published with the 2006 AChemS meeting abstracts; it is poster

abstract #329 on page 83--by Wyart, Webster, McClary and Sobel. Androstadienone was used; I don't want to fuel any

fires by commenting on the results.


Is there any evidence you are aware of which shows a

human VNO reaction to certain stimuli? [Even if this is not correlated with any other response in the

brain]

See the "Scientific Evidence" page of my domain for

this.

JVK

[jvkohl]

3) Well,

JVK... don't worry, marketing is not everything in life & you already at least have one great product with good

marketing... I've tried it yesterday for the 1st time... it's very good as a standalone indeed

:thumbsup::D

Thanks, as you can see from reading my posts, I agree that marketing is not everything

in life; neither is integrative research. But it would be great if I could spend more time on integrative research

than I have been spending responding to what I perceive as marketing claims. As I recall, this thread started in the

"Pheromone Research" section (where there is less room for opinions).

JVK

[jvkohl]

I assume

these studies in that post were done on animals so i'm sceptical of their worth proving VNO functionality in

humans

I vaguely recall the phrasing from a patent that I think was issued to David Berliner's group

(Erox/Pherin) several years ago. If so, no non-disclosure-agreement (NDA) would be likely to apply. In any case, the

information is quite dated, and also relies on data from non-human animal studies that were done before anyone knew

that even in non-human animals the VNO is not always required for a pheromone

response.

JVK

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

If so,

no non-disclosure-agreement (NDA) would be likely to apply

So I'm lying then, right? - I think not.

Your intuition is wrong, for the NDA does exist and does apply as a secondary protection protocol to the patent

which also exists.

[bronzie]

Perhaps you

aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of NDAs myself and understand his position completely.

Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later,

it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to look pretty silly, to say the

least.

I’m familiar with confidentiality agreement's, I have drafted dozens of them in the past, and

in the process of producing such a contract at the moment for a client. I know exactly what they involve.

HEC

makes very clear assertions in support of the new product that he/she is promoting, however he/she cannot support

with evidence, furthermore he attests this is due to a Confidentiality agreement that apparently may or may not

expire in two years from now, that is fair enough.

however...

To someone with a legal background,

this is called HEARSAY. Basically there is no proof for his assertions, leaving the consumer (in this case me) with

allot of doubt to the credibility of the product he is marketing. This is not a personal attack on HEC, nor is it

innuendo, but a very simple observation.

Anyway, im not a scientist, and have not researched the VNO and I

rely on the research of people like Jvkhol who provide the forum with citations and evidence.

Anyhow im going

to jump off this bandwagon and debate altogether because I believe it’s a waste of my time, but I can clearly say

this from a legal perspective and a common sense perspective, a consumer should be wary of a products supposed

effectiveness when the effect is largely attributed from some unknown stimuli or based on evidence that only the

manufacturer has access too and will not provide or disclose the evidence to support their claim.

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

doubt

to the credibility of the product he is marketing

For the fifth and final time, I am not marketing

anything nor am I in the position to.. My personal comments are just that - relative to my personal real-world

observations.

It also seems, from my observations, that you tend to doubt the merit of all new products and

attempt to degrade them.. Most often you are proved incorrect, so why continue the same pattern over and over and

over? - This is not a personal attack on Bronzie, nor is it innuendo, but a very simple question.

[jvkohl]

So

I'm lying then, right? - I think not. Your intuition is wrong, for the NDA does exist and does apply as a secondary

protection protocol to the patent which also exists.

I didn't mean to imply that you're lying about

the NDA, and don't think I did so. On the other hand, rather than merely spew some jargon, you had an opportunity

to cite the patent for scientific support of your position. When the scientific support is readily available, why

not cite it? There may only be a few people interested in looking at the full text of the patent, but it could lead

to more discussion.

I have also worked with NDA's, which can be broadly applied, but not--to my

knowledge--as "secondary protection" against the release of (or citation to) public information (e.g., the patent).

And, though there may be other reasons for the NDA, in my case, the NDA's, like patents, have been used to protect

marketing interests.

In any case, I'm not relying on intuition; unsupported opinions; unpublished research;

or the presence/absence of a human VNO.

JVK

[Gegogi]

Mr. H writes, "...that you

tend to doubt the merit of all new products..."

Bronize is exercising a prudent approach as many

products--electronics, health related, optics, whatever--are not what the makers claim them to be. In the case of

pheromone products, the track record of success isn't exactly overwhelming. In some instances it is a clear case of

deceptive marketing. For others, the product simply doesn't work for everybody. The designer may not be aware of

the mixed results until after it goes to market. They simply lacked the resources to test the product across a board

enough sample to know what the hell it does.

[tounge]

Bronize is exercising

a prudent approach as many products--electronics, health related, optics, whatever--are not what the makers claim

them to be. In the case of pheromone products, the track record of success isn't exactly overwhelming. In some

instances it is a clear case of deceptive marketing. For others, the product simply doesn't work for everybody. The

designer may not be aware of the mixed results until after it goes to market. They simply lacked the resources to

test the product across a board enough sample to know what the hell it does.





Well

said and very fair. Many people here remember BDC concepts and the BS they pitched in promoting a product, and of

course since then, seemingly departed the sight. Then another person who was banned from here who had a product

(which I happen to like) from a competeing pheromone company. And this company seems to have an instant pheromone

for every situation.

It is a buyer beware situation. I have over the last few years come to know people who

have a great deal of credability with regards to pheromone science, and other aspects of biochemistry. And the

bottom line is that, the marketing of Pheromones is often times a seedy business.

[tounge]

For the fifth and final time, I am not marketing anything nor am I in the position to.. My personal comments

are just that - relative to my personal real-world observations.

It also seems, from my observations, that

you tend to doubt the merit of all new products and attempt to degrade them.. Most often you are proved incorrect,

so why continue the same pattern over and over and over?






Who has proven him

incorrect? And what products besides A314 has he doubted the merits of?

[Mungojerry]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[tenaciousBLADE]

Bronzie, I'm not in

favor nor against the product.
But isn't it to early to speculate if it works or not?
I say, you doubt it? then

don't try it.
Some people have already purchesed it, and if we wait a month or two we'll probably get some

reports:type:
I myself don't doubt the product, yet I'm not gonna base my opinion on just HEC's posts... nor do

I think that's what he even wants. Let us base our opinions on the following reports, shall we? :)
I suggest we

simply wait some time and see what happens:trout:

[jvkohl]

To

reiterate:


In any case, I'm not relying on intuition; unsupported opinions; unpublished

research; or the presence/absence of a human VNO.


From:
Individual and gender fingerprints

in human body odour. Dustin J. Penn, Elisabeth Oberzaucher, Karl Grammer, et al. (2006) J. R. Soc.

Interface

"We found that although the axillary sweat of men and women had remarkably similar GC–MS profiles,

we could statistically discriminate the sexes, and we identified the chemical structures of 12 of these marker

compounds characteristic of gender (table 3)."

Simply put, they found 12 putative human pheromones with

sufficient variability in the sweat of men and women to determine whether the sweat was more likely to be from a man

or from a woman. There is no mention of the human VNO, and thus it appears to be of no concern to these researchers,

who are examining sex differences in human body odor.

JVK

[belgareth]

Bronzie,

I'm not in favor nor against the product.
But isn't it to early to speculate if it works or not?
I say, you

doubt it? then don't try it.
Some people have already purchesed it, and if we wait a month or two we'll probably

get some reports:type:
I myself don't doubt the product, yet I'm not gonna base my opinion on just HEC's

posts... nor do I think that's what he even wants. Let us base our opinions on the following reports, shall we?

:)
I suggest we simply wait some time and see what happens:trout:

Sounds both fair and reasonable to

me.

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Sounds

both fair and reasonable to me.

I second that notion.