How much SOE to use

[jvkohl]

As some of you know, SOE comes in a 10 milliliter role-on applicator, which allows you to better control how much you use. I\'m sure that dosage will vary with circumstances. During the course of 4 hours spent dancing/socializing in the bar last night, I used approximately 1 milliliter, and strictly on my neck. When I wanted to get a lady\'s attention at the bar, I rolled a little on, and casually walked by. From that point on she kept glancing my way. I put a little more on just before I went and stood next to her at the bar, while ordering a beer. First she had her back turned to me, but almost immediately she turned; looked me straight in the eye, and smiled. I introduced myself. Not much more happened with her, for whatever reason, but I later found out from others that she was only 23 years old. Since I\'m 50, it would be a long shot to end up with a 23 year-old just due to SOE. But, the SOE definitely got her attention. It\'s just that there is only so much pheromones can do--and this girl was the prettiest in the place, and got lots of attention. I\'m not into pursuit, so I just continued experimenting.

When dancing, I made it a point not to put any more SOE on, since body heat would activate its dispersal--better to have not enough than too much. Especially since slow dancing tends to follow fast dancing. Use caution here, the closer you get to her, the less potent you want the fragrance to be.

On the other hand, when I went \"crusing\" through the bar, I would first role on a little more, so that, in passing, I was relatively sure that women would pick up on the scent. They did, I got lots of smiles from different ladies, and several touches. Don\'t know if others have noticed, but if a woman is at all interested in you she will manage to touch your arm or side as she passes by--ever so casually, but all the same--they want to get a \"feel\" for you. For me, this is great. If you can possibly do it, tone your upper arms. Just do a few push ups each day, or lift some dumbells; 15 lbs X 20-30 reps keeps me very solid, and helps to leave a good impression when the women \"cop a feel.\" You don\'t need to have bulging biceps, but the muscle tone really helps; enough to get me to further develop my biceps through regular weight lifting.

Back to dosage. What you want is for SOE to give you a competitive boost; it will but only if you don\'t use too much. You\'re looking for a somewhat subtle effect, a smile as you go by; glances afterwards, something like that. On the odd occassion someone might comment on your scent; just thank them--don\'t pull out the bottle to show them, or discuss your use of pheromones--that can wait for much later. You\'ll know if and when to bring up the topic, depending on how much interest she shows.

At least with SOE you don\'t need to wonder how much \"overspray\" gets on your clothing to put your scent into overdrive when you warm up. The role-on applicator is definitely the way to go so far as I am concerned. Besides you can monitor how much of it you use as the level declines in the bottle--and potentially use every last drop without struggling with a spray applicator.

Hope you all will add your experiences with dosage to this thread.

Good luck finding what you\'re looking for, or getting her to find you.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James, I just read in your article that NONE produced negative effects on the women tested, while NOL produced the desired one. Your article also states thet NOL oxidizes into NONE within 20 mins. If so wouldn\'t application to the shirt be more suitable? Especially if I tend to sweat heavily? The total amount you used seems to be quite a bit. From what I\'ve read here, most would consider that an OD.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That\'s right. Also I would worry that contact with the skin could cause the roll-on to pick up bacteria and oxygen and deposit them inside the applicator. It would be a small amount, to be sure, but over time could cause a slow, steady degradation of the product -- including conversion of NOL to NONE.

I think it might be wise to at least keep the product in the refrigerator when not using it. That should help slow the process.

One idea for application would be to mix a small amount at a time in a spray bottle with alcohol -- can be bought at liquor stores as 190-proof grain alcohol (=95% ethyl) or 100-proof vodaka (=50% ethyl). Sprayed on, would deposit a more even and diffuse amount over a large area of clothing. THe alcohol would quickly evaporate leaving the rest behind.

[jvkohl]

I\'m not sure whether the conversion of OL to NONE always occurs in 20 minutes; seems more likely that this conversion depends on the presence of particular bacteria: Diptheroids or Cornybacterium. The amount of bacteria vaies by sex, and obviously with hygeine. Personally, I wouldn\'t worry about conversion. Just because it can happen, doesn\'t mean it always does. Besides, many people have reported positive results with NONE heavy products.

1 ml during the course of an evening doesn\'t seem like that much to me--as I said, SOE is subtle, and I was deliberately trying to see if it had good effects. On the other hand, if you used 1 ml of a spray product, it would definitely be too much--so I can understand why you think application to clothing is an option. Of course it is, but I wouldn\'t recommend it. The whole concept of human pheromones is based upon their secretion as odorless compounds that become odorous with metabolism. SOE has an odor, but any odor attributed to the pheromones it contains is minimal compared to the overriding musky carrier fragrance.

Also, I wouldn\'t worry about bacteria contaminating SOE due to the role-on applicator. The alcohol content of SOE should be sufficient to limit bacterial growth. I\'ve maintained bottles of androsterone mixed in mineral oil for several years without seeing or smelling any degradation. Maybe that\'s because I can\'t smell the RONE, but no one who has smelled it noticed any change with time. The mix was not prepared under sterile conditions, and there is no alcohol to inhibit bacterial growth. BTW, in theory about 30% of you would not be able to smell the RONE--just like 30% of you are unlikely to smell NONE, unless repeated exposure occurs over several weeks.

So, try not to get too technical about the application; most of you will know whether or not you\'re wearing the right amount on the skin. If you\'re not sure--ask a female friend.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just ordered some attraction and should be getting it in soon. It has mostly -nol in it, but you say that -nol is converted into -none? So do you recommend applying -nol products to clothes rather than skin?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, SOE, at 5 mg pheromones in 10 ml of solution is a concentrated product. It\'s the equivalent of NPA and PI! You certainly wouldn\'t use 1 ml of either of these products. The 0.50 mg of pheromones in 1 ml of SOE is about 25 times the amount (0.02 mg) recommended by Scientist. Of course, it\'s harder to OD with -nol.

[a.k.a.]

Not to mention that your stash would be gone after ten uses.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If people have success with Scent of Eros, maybe some of us can make the identical mix with the phero kit and spray it through a bottle, so we can get a better estimate of dosage.

James, was this 1 ml all on yourself?! I remember you said that you let others try your bottle.

[Nutt]

wow, I understand you were going for OD, but 1/10th of a bottle seems a little over the top .

Would putting the stuff into a atomizer waste less? Im assuming that rolling it on is going to leave more of a pool of liquid than a fine mist would, Guess the mist wouldent last on the area it was applied to for long though.

I guess you being an older guy the lack of none wasen\'t helping, probably used as a combination or by a younger guy the results would require a lower dose.

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nutz ]

[jvkohl]

I wouldn\'t apply any of the pheromone products to clothing; they are designed to work _with_ your natural body chemistry. That won\'t happen if the product is on your clothes.

Also, I\'m not concerned about conversion of OL or RONE to NONE. Even if this conversion occurs (I\'ll need to review the literature), I doubt that the conversion makes much difference to the overall effect.

Product concentrations are misleading. Sensitivity to RONE could be different than to NONE or OL. I found that typically 1mg/ml of RONE in mineral oil was perceived to be pleasant by most women. But some found this concentration to be too much.

I should have tempered my comments on my use of 1 ml of SOE over 4 hours with the explanation that several other people applied it, either to themselves or to their lover. I have no way of knowing how much others used, but, thinking back, it must have been fairly significant--perhaps even half the one milliliter total.

If so, 10ml of SOE would give 20 uses, but then again, I don\'t think most of you would be inclined to use as much as I did. My sense of smell isn\'t too keen for one thing--and I cannot smell the RONE unless concentration is more than 2mg/ml. Who knows, the 2mg/ml dosage might be what\'s required for most men to smell it, compared to 1mg/ml for most women. That\'s because estrogen increases women\'s sensitivity to male pheromones. Since women have more estrogen, they pick up on the pheromones readily.

In any case, it should be much harder to OD with RONE and OL than with NONE. The very worst that could happen is that you might smell too musky with RONE and OL, but with NONE, an OD would make you smell like urine.

I\'ll put together the info I have on RONE during the next few days, and provide a synopsis--either in a post to this forum or to my website. I just started as manager of a different lab on New Year\'s eve, so getting things organized is taking lots of my time.

But, no matter how much info I provide, it\'s still going to be the reaction by the ladies you expose to SOE that counts.

[travis]

I agree with you James, I believe that Rone places an important role. The reason why I said this is because when I take DHEA orally (which we know that there is a Rone ingredient in it)and Synthetic Pheromone \"None\" (I don\'t take None orally)and go out, after couple of hour women are just looking at me straight to the eyes. I don\'t get smiles but DARN eye contact is pretty obvious. Maybe the reason why I dont get smiles is because my girlfriend is with me.Or maybe I am too intimidating when I with Rone and None. Maybe with the Nol I am more approchable but definetely Rone has to be present because of the musculin scent.

I have a question for you James. I do not what to be depended to much to DHEA just to get attentions from girls, do you think SOE will deliver the same results as to DHEA in terms of musk scent?

travis images/icons/smile.gif

[travis]

CORRECTION : NOT \"PLACES\" IT SHOULD \"PLAYS\"

Another question for James:

I tried to delute \"DHEA\" in oil base and wore it, it did not work, why? excuse my english, second language.

travis

[travis]

BTW, THE DHEA THAT I AM TAKING IS \"7 KETO DHEA\" NOT THE \"DHEA\" ITSELF.

travis

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think it is interesting that James says that the pheroes should NOT be applied to your clothing because Stone Labs says the exact opposite. Here\'s some text from their website:
\"Try applying the preparation to your clothing instead of your skin. It won\'t stain, and just a drop on the inside of a shirt cuff should be enough to get results. Some individuals have very active bacteria on their skin which attracts and renders useless the pheromones. Depending on the biochemical make-up of your skin, this could be affecting your success and application to clothing could make a big difference.\"

So James, what do you make of this statement?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Seems like James has a lot of theories contradictory to what many people are accustomed to in this forum (i.e., -none may give negative results, apply pheromones only to skin). If he\'s right, we\'ll all be the happier. If he\'s wrong, it shows that real world experience is more important once again.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually, there\'s a few studies that point at NONE being a negative to women -- and that the negative impact goes away when women are ovulating. It\'s an interesting mode for mate selection -- repel women who won\'t get pregnant, while the ones who could get pregnant stay.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Experience shows well from my point of view real life etc that application to clothes is a good thing but not applying to clothes also works the alcohol based spray products work better on clothing actually they last longer just a matter of choice i guess weve proved both work. So its really just a matter of personal choice. Up to the individual.

[jvkohl]

Nutz: I think the role on is the best way to go; it definitely allows more control over what you use. Any \"mist\" application means more alcohol, which is good for carrying the fragrance but not really necessary for carrying the pheromonal message.
You said: \"I guess you being an older guy the lack of none wasen\'t helping, probably used as a combination or by a younger guy the results would require a lower dose.\" I disagree with the need for -None at any age. However, I\'m willing to wait for more data before I cement my position.

Travis: Yes, I think that SOE could be as effective as supplementing with DHEA with regard to scent output, which in both cases should increase levels of androsterone. Another factor is that DHEA counteracts stress related increases in cortisol. So, I can speculate that androsterone (as the masculine component of DHEA metabolism) is a scent signal that reflects confidence--lack of stress--dominant male status, whatever.
Diluting DHEA however could not be expected to work, pheromonally. Its the metabolism of DHEA into androsterone and etiocholanolone that appears to make the difference (as in sex difference). Higher ratios of androsterone to etiocholanolone characterize men, and lower A/E ratios characterize women (and homosexual men).

EazyE: I\'m concerned about application to clothing of SOE, but not so concerned about such applications with sprays. SOE is designed to work with natural \"chemistry,\" rather than primarily as a fragrance. This is why the role-on applicator makes sense. It may make sense to spray other products on clothing, nonetheless. I just don\'t see the logic in doing so from a pheromonal perspective. Perhaps Stone Labs intends for the fragrance to draw the ladies closer, allowing the pheromones to do their work. That would be logical, but I can\'t speak for them.

Truth: Whether I\'m right or wrong, real world experience always is more telling than theory. But I can truthfully say that I have also had a lot of real world experience with pheromones. I\'ve been experimenting in real world settings with androsterone since 1993. I\'m not a slow learner, just wanted to be sure that if I \"went commercial\" the research was there to support any marketing. Using androsterone with a fragrance is somewhat foreign to me, but I am very pleased to find that androsterone does blend/work extremely well with the fragrance in SOE.

Scientist: The NONE issue is somewhat misrepresented--not sure who your reading. The negative impact of NONE does not go away when women are ovulating; NONE simply becomes less aversive. Still negative, but not as negative, which does not mean it ever has a positive influence. However, I\'m willing to concede the possibility that NONE is more related to dominance (the alpha male) than to confidence and masculinity (like androsterone). If NONE is a dominance factor, it would help its wearers by boosting their inner status, and could make them feel better as competitors (to themselves they smell like the dominant male). Women might also be less averse to NONE when ovulating, so that they might have a better chance to conceive with a dominant male. However, the chances of an OD with NONE (urinous) are greater than with a musky scent like OL or RONE. Too dominant can mean abusive. Some women may go for these \"bad boy\" types, but others will show more interest in confidence and masculinity rather than in dominance.

Unfortunately, most of the above is theory--and I am reluctant to even put it out there. I\'d prefer to stick with biological facts and focus on the fact that--at least so far--NONE has not been shown to alter LH levels, but OL has. RONE probably will be shown to influence LH levels, which is why I think it deserves at least equal billing with OL.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James, so have you personally tried -none?

I know there seems to be a lot of research that found negative reactions to -none. However, if people on the forum are getting good results from -none, there could be explanations for the discrepancy.

1. The scientific studies may have used too high of a concentration of -none, and we know it\'s easy to OD with it.

2. The studies generally report whether the woman liked the smell, how they perceived photos of men in the presence of -none, etc. and not subconscious mate selection, which is what\'s important.

[jvkohl]

Truth,

Good point! No, I haven\'t tried NONE, since I never considered it would have positive effects. Also, as you indicate, studies of NONE focus more on conscious perception, so we\'re comparing apples to oranges, since OL and RONE most likely operate in the unconscious realm. Overall, I agree that user\'s experience offers the best guide, but temper my approach with biology. For example, a progesteronic pheromone causes decreases in men\'s LH and testosterone level, which makes sense since progesterone is a negative when it comes to getting a woman pregnant. NONE may be the androgenic counterpart to progesterone and have a somewhat negative influence. Big BUT: positive associations could possibly made both with progesterone and with NONE. With progesterone--think about the male dogs that will hump a woman\'s leg because they get aroused when she\'s having her period. It\'s most likely due to a cross-species reaction. And cross-species reactions tend to support the likelihood that imprinting on any pheromone is possible.

[Nutt]

Humm, So your thinking is -NONE acts primeraly on the male, meaning that the pratical results would probably be just as effective by using a very small ammount on the males face, more as a confidence booster than a pheremone signal to females?

(although I belive you may think its a placebo? of course by definition that might not be a bad thing. )

[**DONOTDELETE**]

JAMES!!

You mention that the phero NONE may have negative effects on women. Could this be because they made the women smell the pheromone without a cover fragrance? Since is smells so bad on its own anyone would not like it. Also it is very easy to OD on it.
how were the tests conducted?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

aLTHOUGH myself using none (andro 4.2) gets good results as well. But it could just be those women who are in the fertile faze. So i dont know personal experience indicates thought that it does have both positive and negative effects.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I myself cannot agree with the statement that -NONE only signals dominance. One time when I was wearing a -NONE only pheromone cologne when I was out at a bar in downtown Chicago, I had a waitress come up to me and ask me, \"Are you a model?\"
Having a girl think that you might be a model seems to have nothing to do with dominance. It has to do with her perceiving you as physically attractive.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

True but also remember that when we apply pheromones our natural production increases also at the same time if weve applied to skin and even clothing after a short while the body breaks it down into other pheromone compounds. So obviously it isnt cut and dried but youre right none also signals attraction like all the types are meant to. So its a more of a grey area.

[jvkohl]

EasyE: I didn\'t say that NONE only signals dominance--besides all that was theory. I\'ve admitted that I don\'t know that much about NONE because it never appeared to me to be worth much study. Even when people report positive effects from NONE, I must take them with a grain of salt, since to me positive effects don\'t seem likely. But, I don\'t know it all, and do not claim to.

All studies, whether on NONE, OL, or RONE can be critisized for problems in design (no cover fragrance) or in the number of study participants, or in the statistical analyses. Individual results are hard to ignore; studies are simply guidelines--usually for future studies. And, I don\'t know how all the different studies were done where NONE is concerned; there have been several different approaches. One that comes to mind had nothing to do with attraction. Chuck Wysocki at Monell Chemical Senses noticed that after working with NONE for several weeks, he developed the ability to smell it. That means that, apparently, even those who cannot smell it can develop the ability to smell it by developing receptors for NONE with ongoing exposure--it\'s a function of genes being activated that code for the development of receptors.

This opens things up even more for speculation, since we also know that people habituate to odors and in doing so can no longer smell them. Perhaps we all have the ability to develop receptors for NONE and form them with exposure, then habituate to the NONE odor and no longer react to it. Confusing, yes? Speculation always is. Again, that\'s why I prefer to stick with the biology of how pheromones affect hormones and how hormones change behavior.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I wouldn\'t be surprised if -none and all androgen-associated pheromones cause testosterone levels to fall in men. Isn\'t this typical of feedback loops? If the body detects an excess of androgen-associated pheromones on its own skin, the body could decrease testosterone levels thinking it has too much. Anybody experience decreases in strength in the weight room with pheromone use?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, is SOE oil-based? How long should a skin application last?

[travis]

Truth,

Yes, the SOE is oil base. \"How long it last to your skin\" for the cologne itself, it fades away about 1/2 hour but for the rone and nol I think it goes to your blood stream and mixes to your sweat glands and as you sweat and it gives out musky order (maybe). What is really wiered is women reacts right away. What James Kolh was talking about is not BS you\'ve got to try dude.

Travis images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

1/2 hour! So, do you use any cover fragrance?

[jvkohl]

Truth is right only slightly off track with the NONE testosterone connection. More likely it is NONE produced by other males that drops your testosterone, since this is what appears to happen in other mammals. The dominant male chemically castrates his subordinates, and the only way this is possible is by pheromonal communication. A similar effect most likely occurs when women have their period, since Berliner\'s group has shown that a progesteronic pheromone decreases testosterone in males. Basically the signal should work like this: she pheromonally communicates that she is not able to get pregnant (because she\'s having her period). Since other mammals might be too stupid to get the message, she drops their testosterone level so they are less motivated to have sex with her--and more likely to find a sweet smelling fertile female. That\'s why Dev Singh (and Matt Bronstad)\'s report that men find the scent of women who are ovulating to be most pleasant was so important to pheromone research. Simply put, they showed that the same effect of pheromones on other mammals probably occurs in humans.

So, I\'ve caught myself holding my breath as anyone who\'s much larger than I am passes me by at the gym. Don\'t want to run the risk of their pheromones dropping my testosterone. On the other hand, I\'ll take in a deep breath as an attractive woman walks by--since ovulatory female pheromones have been shown to increase men\'s testosterone levels.

Just speculation, but I\'m fairly sure that when you wear NONE;OL;or RONE, you will be the one sending the dominant signal to subordinate other males. It should be as if you gained about 15lbs of muscle and had a nice tan--since both are associated with increased testosterone. The ladies are programmed by olfaction to respond to visual signals of high testosterone; you can get a response merely by sending the right chemical signals.

Travis: I don\'t think that the RONE or OL from SOE enters the bloodstream, and if it did there would be a minimal effect--if any. What we\'re really looking at here is an application that acts topically to impress upon the mind of a woman that you are more reproductively fit than you might appear. RONE and OL (and NONE) are all end products of androgen (like testosterone) metabolism. They are byproducts with no particular purpose so far as the majority of scientist say. But that\'s foolish. The same byproducts are pheromones in other mammals, and we have the same hormone responses that other mammals have when we are exposed to the pheromones of others. Besides, even biologically uninformed evolutionary psychologists would tell you that even byproducts of metabolism have their purpose--whether or not we know what that purpose is.

I\'ve already recommended against a cover fragrance--at least when you first try SOE. Let it do its work; if it doesn\'t, then try a cover fragrance. I certainly didn\'t use one, and think that you\'ll find you don\'t want to cover SOE with anything else. Even if you can\'t smell it on you, others can--so be careful about using too much. But don\'t cover it up--it could be quite confusing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James Kohl wrote:

I wouldn\'t apply any of the pheromone products to clothing; they are designed to work_with_ your natural body chemistry. That won\'t happen if the product is on your clothes. Also, I\'m not concerned about conversion of OL or RONE to NONE. Even if this conversion occurs (I\'ll need to review the literature), I doubt that the conversion makes much to the overall effect.

James, so what do you exactly mean that pheromones are designed to work with your natural body chemistry if you don\'t think any conversions are important?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James Kohl wrote: <Just speculation, but I\'m fairly sure that when you wear NONE;OL;or RONE, you will be the one sending the dominant signal to subordinate other males. It should be as if you gained about 15lbs of muscle and had a nice tan--since both are associated with increased testosterone. The ladies are programmed by olfaction to respond to visual signals of high testosterone; you can get a response merely by sending the right chemical signals.>

But how would your your body \"know\" that the pheros you are sensing are your own? One possibility:

Your pheros should be sensed continuously since you\'re around yourself all the time.
But other people\'s pheros should be sensed as pulses since other people will come and go.

If this is true, than artificial pheros should lower your own pheros. Since you would generally wear pheros only on social occasions, your body would interpret them as coming from others rather than from yourself.

Say it ain\'t so!!!