Individual body types and phermone effectiveness

[chromeboy]

Hello people,

This is my first post here after going through the archives.

I have learned from

the forum, that people who report "pheros dont work", do so for three reasons:

1- They do not do their part of

the social exchange (talk, be nice etc.)

2- They do not try long enough to find the combination that works with

their body chemistry.

3- Phermones really "dont work" because of some special condition about individual body

types/chemistries.

I would like to know more about this 3rd reason. Is it some sort of bacteria that makes

phermones ineffective for some people? Can someone elaborate on the reasons that cause phermones not to work, other

than the first two causes?

Thanks

[WhoIsGC]

Cheers

to a fellow newb. This is also my first post.

I'd agree with your list based on my devouring the archives for

the past couple weeks. I'm ashamed to admit I got suckered into Pherlure scam because of a posting on fark.com and

the fake "science" articles about it they've littered the net with. The good news is that it lead me here!

I'd

clarify that it sounds like figuring out ones pheromone signatures is an extremely complex and personal process.

I'd hazard a guess that the exact same signature (natural + synthetic) on two different men will not produce the

same effect largely because women factor in your physical and emotional signatures into the mix as well.

A

dominating alpha with classic high testosterone features (square jawline, muscles, etc) will definitely need more

-nol in the mix to take help them be more comfortable around you. More soft-featured men will likely need more -none

to add a bit of a harder edge. That what any one particular woman looks for overall varies not just with the

individual but also apparantly is correlated with their menstrual cycle (and probably varies even day-to-day) means

even the most experience here are still tweaking.

I think the body chemistry/bacterial colony thing is also quite

important. I think we waay overexposed to toxins in our diet/environment and kill off the good bacteria we need with

our obsessive bathing habits. It sounds like having bad bacterial mixes will negate the addition of synthetic

pheromones. I overcame my personal taboos regarding my bathing habits after reading DrSmellThis and I think I've

had some success with that.

I'm rambling on a bit I guess. I blame First-postitus.

[Cullmanz Own]

Ok, heres my take on the

situation. I think pheromones work for everybody but people are expecting what I like to call "the cave man effect"

whereas the man puts on pheromones and expects women to flock to him and grab on his ball sack. People, the Axe

Effects is not REAL! Back when cave men were around, I bet pheromones worked like they do in animals, serving only

for communication and sex. Today, we're so intelligent and conscious, this doesn't apply anymore. In my case, I

don't even get a placebo effect because I know they're only 1/16 of my game. All they do is make a good first

impression and the rest is up to you. People who say nothing works for them need to experiment and find out what

they're mone signature is. Also, this bacteria theory can be overcome back taking a good multivitamin and getting

exercise. Many people want do to well with women but aren't willing to go that extra step to accomplish there goal.

I take Its Vital from <link deleted> It detoxes the body and has a great balance of vitamins and minerals. Not to

mention, I feel great when I take them. Also, I'm a cross country runner and boxer so I get regular exercise to

keep my body clean. Pheromones work very well for me. I think that if everyone would just take some time out to

experiment, we'd get less and less of these "pheromones don't work for me" posts. EXPERIMENT PEOPLE Peace out good

luck.

[WhoIsGC]

Ok,

heres my take on the situation. I think pheromones work for everybody but people are expecting what I like to call

"the cave man effect" whereas the man puts on pheromones and expects women to flock to him and grab on his ball

sack. People, the Axe Effects is not REAL! Back when cave men were around, I bet pheromones worked like they do in

animals, serving only for communication and sex. Today, we're so intelligent and conscious, this doesn't apply

anymore. In my case, I don't even get a placebo effect because I know they're only 1/16 of my game. All they do is

make a good first impression and the rest is up to you. People who say nothing works for them need to experiment and

find out what they're mone signature is. Also, this bacteria theory can be overcome back taking a good multivitamin

and getting exercise. Many people want do to well with women but aren't willing to go that extra step to accomplish

there goal. I take Its Vital from <link deleted> It detoxes the body and has a great balance of vitamins and

minerals. Not to mention, I feel great when I take them. Also, I'm a cross country runner and boxer so I get

regular exercise to keep my body clean. Pheromones work very well for me. I think that if everyone would just take

some time out to experiment, we'd get less and less of these "pheromones don't work for me" posts. EXPERIMENT

PEOPLE Peace out good luck.

DrSmellThis also extolls the importance of sweating and exercise and how it

helps the body get rid of the gunk. I was obese and radically changed my diet and added a strenuous exercise

regimine (1 hr a day) and the effects not only on the body (now I'm just mildly overweight), but also the mind are

fantastic and do much more for you than mones do. The mones are complimentary and do work, but you need to work the

whole person (the other 15/16 of the game as it were).

I'm only about 2 weeks into experimenting, but I do want

to report a SOE + NP is everything that was claimed it was. In my exercise group there are a number of women and

they were almost giddy the day I tried that mix (2' SOE, 1 dab NP). A couple of the cute ones ended up inviting me

to hang out with them at lunch. All of the women were gabbing like crazy to me and cheering me on (I'm still the

slow poke in the group). Even the quietest shy one who never EVER talks started talking to me. She seemed surprised

at herself as well.

So another positive anecdote, FWIW.

[chromeboy]

So, theoretically there is no

such thing as "phermones do not work for me", it is only a matter of experience and experiment? :think:

[belgareth]

So,

theoretically there is no such thing as "phermones do not work for me", it is only a matter of experience and

experiment? :think:

That's pretty much correct. It isn't you in the first place, pheromones affect

others around you, as does your personality, your body language and your hygene. Saying that pheromones don't work

for you is saying that they don't affect any of the people around you and that doesn't make any sense at all. If

you believe they are not working for you, you need to find out what you are doing wrong. It could be personalilty,

body language or the wrong mones/doses.

[chromeboy]

That's

pretty much correct. It isn't you in the first place, pheromones affect others around you, as does your

personality, your body language and your hygene. Saying that pheromones don't work for you is saying that they

don't affect any of the people around you and that doesn't make any sense at all. If you believe they are not

working for you, you need to find out what you are doing wrong. It could be personalilty, body language or the wrong

mones/doses.

That I understand. Thank you.

What I am asking is that is there any scientific study or

even non-scientific rumour that states that "phermones do not work with certain types/kinds of body chemistries".



For example some people just sweat too much; some people naturally smell funny; or some people have naturally

unique body characteristics (being hairy etc)...

I am concerned more about that. Holding physical appearance,

character, age and social behaviour constant, can body chemistry "only" cause phermones NOT to work? :blink:

[jvkohl]

What I am

asking is that is there any scientific study or even non-scientific rumour that states that "phermones do not work

with certain types/kinds of body chemistries".

For example some people just sweat too much; some people

naturally smell funny; or some people have naturally unique body characteristics (being hairy etc)...

I am

concerned more about that. Holding physical appearance, character, age and social behaviour constant, can body

chemistry "only" cause phermones NOT to work? :blink:

Fish Odor Syndrome = natural body odor that is

"fishy"

smelling.
http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_fish_odor_syndrome.html
That's

the only one I know about that might cause pheromones not to work. Of course, diabetic ketoacidosis results in a

characteristic odor, also. There are probably other odor-associated disease states and syndromes--but don't panic.

Unless someone has told you that you smell funny.

JVK

[chromeboy]

Fish Odor

Syndrome = natural body odor that is "fishy"

smelling.
http://www.medica

l-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_fish_odor_syndrome.html (http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_fish_odor_syndrome.html)
That's the only one I know about that might

cause pheromones not to work. Of course, diabetic ketoacidosis results in a characteristic odor, also. There are

probably other odor-associated disease states and syndromes--but don't panic. Unless someone has told you that you

smell funny.

JVK
(http://)

:D No, nobody told me

that. Thanks Dr.Kohl.

I wish to approach this as methodological as possible. Is there any way to measure the

amount and type(s) of phermone(s) that my body emits?

I understand that the orthodox method of experimenting is

to test standalone phermones in different quantities, but since the social environment we are exposed to each time

is different, accurately testing phermone effectiveness is quite difficult.

At least I would like to know the

amount of phermones I naturally "have". Is there such a method of measurement for phermone levels? Blood testing?

Urine testing? (eww)

:think:

[Cullmanz Own]

Not really my friend. If

that were possible I would have already done it. The fact is, pheromones are still new territory for many scientists

and they still haven't developed a method of testing. I hate to say it, but the only way to figure it out is

experimentation. You can however, distill pheromones from your urine but it's a complicated process and I don't

know all the details. If you could figure out the process you could distill and get a rough number of the amount of

pheromones your body gives out. I've searched for info. on how to do this but I haven't been successful.

[chromeboy]

Not really

my friend. If that were possible I would have already done it. The fact is, pheromones are still new territory for

many scientists and they still haven't developed a method of testing. I hate to say it, but the only way to figure

it out is experimentation. You can however, distill pheromones from your urine but it's a complicated process and I

don't know all the details. If you could figure out the process you could distill and get a rough number of the

amount of pheromones your body gives out. I've searched for info. on how to do this but I haven't been

successful.

Whoa. I cant do that, I was referring to an expert test. A doctor's or pharmacist's look

at it. But telling from your post, I guess it will be too expensive.

[jvkohl]

Whoa. I cant do

that, I was referring to an expert test. A doctor's or pharmacist's look at it. But telling from your post, I

guess it will be too expensive.

Levels of testosterone (think: androstenol) and of

dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) (think: androstadienone and androsterone) are the best indicators of

characteristically male pheromone production. You could check to see if your levels are in the "normal" range, and

have a good indicator of male pheromone production.

But a visual assessment would also be a good indicator. A

tall, dark-complected, male with symmetrical/masculine facial and body features could be expected to have higher

levels of testosterone than a lesser counterpart. DHEA levels decline lineraly with age after 25 y/o, so youth is

also a correlate.

Caveat: Despite all visual appearances, metabolism of these hormones varies with

characteristic enzyme production that may be genetically determined (e.g., aromatase). This explains why gay males

produce natural body odor that is different than heterosexual males despite apparent masculine features (or lack of

them). As I indicated in an earlier post, disease states may also influence odor production.

And, even if

you could get an accurate measurement of specific putative human male pheromones, it would do no good unless there

were comparative results from a large number of subjects.
If you're willing to wait 10 years, there may be hope

in this regard. Meanwhile, anything you do to increase your masculine facial/body features: lift weights, grow

facial hair, get a good tan, will increase masculine pheromone production. Just don't overdo it for fear of

developing a testosterone charged natural odor that becomes aversive, think: steroid-hormone abusing body builders.

Sure, some women think the over-development is great, but most find it unnatural and aversive, and this is most

likely due to unconscious association with natural body odor that is too

strong.

JVK

[chromeboy]

And, even if you

could get an accurate measurement of specific putative human male pheromones, it would do no good unless there were

comparative results from a large number of subjects.

Thats makes tons of sense.


Meanwhile,

anything you do to increase your masculine facial/body features: lift weights, grow facial hair, get a good tan,

will increase masculine pheromone production. Just don't overdo it for fear of developing a testosterone charged

natural odor that becomes aversive,

JVK
(http://)



As far as I have read in the old posts, lifting weights is supposed to increase androstenone, but not -nol and

-rone, am I correct? Or does it have impact on all three?

[jvkohl]

As far as I

have read in the old posts, lifting weights is supposed to increase androstenone, but not -nol and -rone, am I

correct? Or does it have impact on all three?

Exercise increased testosterone increases -nol and

-none. Fresh sweat has more -nol, which converts to -none. So, a woman who is initially attracted to you at the gym

may lose interest after a few hours if you don't shower. The effect of exercise on alpha male status and overall

effect on your general feeling of well being is most likely due to DHEA suppression of anxiety increased cortisol.

When DHEA suppresses cortisol, you can expect higher levels of -rone.

JVK

[Friendly1]

I understand

that the orthodox method of experimenting is to test standalone phermones in different quantities, but since the

social environment we are exposed to each time is different, accurately testing phermone effectiveness is quite

difficult.

Unless you are under some sort of supervision, you always have control over where you will be

and with whom you interact.

You can easily set up an experimental schedule where you have control over the

social environments.

You'll see more immediate effects around people who don't know you. People who have known

you for a while are conditioned to react to your previous pheromone signature. Unless you wear extremely powerful

doses, they won't usually make noticeable changes in behavior right away.

The chief reason why people conclude

that pheromones don't work, in my opinion, is that they don't know what to look for.

You can easily conclude,

when you read all the superhit stories, that pheromones are supposed to produce intense sexual reactions or

aggressive same-sex behavior.

Most of the time, the pheromone-enhanced interactions are much more restrained.

You get a few more quick glances in your direction, maybe, but it's usually just easier to talk to girls and guys

treat you with a little more respect. It's subtle.

You notice the difference as time goes by because the

changes in behavior from strangers become consistent.

Guys who are true alpha male types (and they are not as

common as many guys think they are) probably won't notice much from pheromones because they already get those

sideways glances and preferential respect. They have to put themselves into situations where they would not normally

stand out to see the pheromne effect more easily.

[WhoIsGC]

...
You can

easily set up an experimental schedule where you have control over the social environments.
I was

thinking about setting up social experiments at open beginners dance classes like salsa or tango that are held

several days a week.

There are always more women there (with no history with you), you get into close contact

(exposure) and you rotate through most of them (sample size).

I could even get hard-core and set up a double

blind experiment on myself to make sure I'm not just behaving differently because I know I'm wearing mones to

verify the effect is real.
Make about 2 - 4 mixes of NPA + (some -nol?) + cologne (low to high strength)

and one mix being just cologne
Put in identical spray bottles and put a label inside each (suggestions?) as I do

it. Write down the label and what the mix concentration was. Seal the spray bottles (so I can't see the inside

label anymore).
Put the bottles in a bag and mix them up. Pull them out and label the outside 1, 2, 3,

etc...
Every time I go to a dance class I keep rolling a dice until I get a number on one of the bottles. I use

one spray from that bottle on my shirt (to prevent mone buildup).
Record my experiences for that

session.
Repeat this for a few weeks.
Try to predict which bottle had no mones and what the other mixes

might have been. (3 had no mones, 2 was OD strength NPA, ...)
Open the bottles and make a not of what number

corresponded to what mix (1 was mix B, 2 was mix D, ...).
See how accurate my guesses were.Probably need

to do this experiment a few times, but it would certainly be really interesting data.

The only thing I worry

about is my ability to smell -none under the cologne. Is there any cologne that can really cover NPA so well you

can't smell it at all? (even at near OD strengths?)

Otherwise maybe I'll have to add a drop or two of cat-piss

to the control bottle. :blink:

Any suggestions on how to improve this experiment? (the next cycle of classes

starts in 2 weeks).

[Cullmanz Own]

I have a suggestion.

Applying mones to your clothing is risky business. I go with skin pulse points. You're going to get buildup no

matter what but it's worse on clothing. Washing a shirt once won't get all the mones off it. Buildup is worse when

you apply it to clothing. I suggest trying both though. Some people get better effects from applying to clothing

then they do skin and vise versa.

I think Geogoi is one that applys to clothing. You should try and talk to him

about it and see what he does. I'm not sure if he does or not but I thought I remember him saying that.

But

overall, your experimentaion plan sounds good. That's how I did it but without the guessing and all that. Once you

use them for a while you'll be able to recognize changes in attitudes tward you. -nol is the mone that I can notice

the most. People just don't ever shut up when I wear it. Good luck man.

[chromeboy]

Some really useful information

here. Thanks a lot to everybody.

I have noticed that there are "secret ingredients" and "other mones" that are

mentioned in some of the newer products. Traditionally, from what I have read, I see that people experiment on the

combination of three mones; -none, -nol and -rone.

I would like to know if we have any information regarding how

these "secret ingredients" affect the way three best known phermone types work.

[Friendly1]

Why not just rotate the

bottles, rather than rolling dice?

I think your proposal is a bit overkill, but some guys kept spreadsheets for

a while, so whatever works for you is best.

The dance class should be cool. I use pheromones in dance classes

all the time. I also wear them I go get gas, go to the store, at the office, etc.

[belgareth]

Keeping some sort of a record

helps. I was honestly sceptical of mones and it took a long while to convince myself they really did as advertised.

I have to agree with Friendly that your method sounds a little extreme but some form of consistant testing will

yield solid data you can use later as you become more profficient using pheromones.

Wear mones, like Friendly

says, to do just about anything. You'll get a better cross section of your environment and your results will be

more representative of reality that way. By wearing a single mone or product at a given dose for a longer period of

time you'll reduce the effect of random chance.

[jvkohl]

I would like

to know if we have any information regarding how these "secret ingredients" affect the way three best known phermone

types work.

Without knowing what the secret ingredients" are, there can be no information regarding

how, or if, they work either alone, or with other compounds. Think: marketing strategy, although concerns about

patent violations may also be an issue (e.g., with androstadienone).

I continue to focus on Athena products

by Winnifred Cutler as the most ridiculous example. First she said they contain DHEA (early 90's). Soon thereafter

she claimed secret ingredients and refused to divulge any info while also claiming that she was waiting for patent

protection. Two studies using her products were published. Both were widely criticized by olfactory researchers but

accepted as factual by the media. Neither study divulged the compound that was used. This means that no other

researcher could replicate/validate or even comment on whether or not she was using a candidate pheromone. Wysocki

and Preti from Monel Chemical Senses did comment on her seriously flawed statistical analysis.

If you want

facts, see the Scientific Evidence page of my website.

JVK

[belgareth]

Both were widely

criticized by (olfactory) researchers but accepted as factual by the media.

That is so common in every

facet of science. The media makes the facts and makes public policy by what they decide is right. And the gullible

public continues to swallow the media's tripe.

[chromeboy]

If you want

facts, see the Scientific Evidence page of my website.

JVK


(http://)

Wow, my MSc literature survey bibliography was shorter :run:

[jvkohl]

Wow, my MSc

literature survey bibliography was shorter :run:

I've been researching the topic since the mid

80's. It is interesting, however, to compare citation dates. Most of the work has been done in the past few

years.

JVK

[bronzie]

as someone put it, jvkohl is

science within science!

[Whitehall]

You also have to consider your

exposed cohort, your "olfactidence."

Lot's of none at an old folks home or a nunnery won't cut it.

Likewise, being around Asians will give you a different sense of responses than around some drunk NASCAR bunnies or

clubbing in the black district.

[The Real FTR]

Friendly1 speaks truth.




The chief reason why people conclude that pheromones don't work, in my opinion, is that they don't

know what to look for.

It's kind of a Catch-22 -- to realize whether your pheromones are having an

effect, you have to be able to register subtle changes in behavior. If you're able to register subtle changes in

behavior, you've probably already got good social skills -- and if not, maybe you're not picking up cues as well

as you might. Pheromones won't help your social skills. They will increase your opportunities to practice them,

though.

I've worked with the same people for the past 7 years. I don't use -nol unless I want them hanging

around my desk. If you have a desk job and you're moderately well-liked, it's very easy to tell whether your

mones are working. Count how many times people come up to you to talk and how long they hang around. I have seen

PI/w override my facial expressions and nonverbal behavior - even when I really didn't want people around, and made

"go away" motions like stacking papers and glancing at the clock, giving monosyllabic responses -- they'll come

anyway if I wear -nol.

[gabe1970]

Very cool, interesting thread.

I'd like to know more about 3- Phermones really "dont work" because of some special condition about individual

body types/chemistries. Here's something more to consider... there have been studies which show that "attractive"

people are more likely to be successful (in a variety of ways) than less attractive people. Is their success a

reflection of their appearance or their biochemistry & pheromones? I'm leaning towards "both" as my answer, since

I think they're indicative of each other. And yes, i'm new, too. See my post under "The short fat guy

experiment".