Scent of Eros: My first test

[jvkohl]

It\'s early Saturday morning, and I\'ve decided to relay my experience from earlier this evening, when I went out wearing SOE for the first time. (I\'ve experimented many times with androsterone alone, but this was the first time I was able to test the SOE product). Granted, everyone who reads this should know that I am very biased about my own product, so I will try to get one of the ladies I met for the first time tonight to post to this forum, once she contacts me tomorrow. For now, I can only say that I had more intimate contact with women (not sexual) than I have ever had before in a similar setting. I was asked to dance by 5 different women, in a bar where only about 3 of the 15 women were single. A few husbands got mildly jealous, but I explained a little about pheromones to them--and allowed them to use my bottle to add to their own natural scent. The men, as well as their wives and girlfriends were impressed with the effect attributed to SOE. Since I\'ve been actively involved in research, I can get away with much more than most men can in a barroom/dance hall situation without getting into a fight over improper behavior (a woman\'s or my own). I am also comfortable about asking either women or men what they thing of SOE. All the women loved it, though, initially it was too strong a scent for two of the women. These two were convinced by a very agressive young lady to again sample the scent after their respective lovers had worn it for a few minutes, and then found it was not too strong--rather, it was just right.
I observed more overt displays of sexual behavior between men and women in this bar than I\'ve ever seen before. If this had been a clothing optional event, it could well have turned into an orgy.
One woman kept insisting that she was going home with me; her daughter asked me if I wanted to have her instead. Another woman said she would definitely be having a good time with her husband later, because the SOE he tried made him even more arousing to her. The most interesting comment, however, came from a woman who was passing by while someone else was trying SOE. She said the scent was very relaxing in a come \"f_ _k\" me way, and commented that she always has been known to be blunt.
Of course I am pleased with this first outing, and will have a few more chances to experiment in different settings during the next few weeks. But, unless I get something really unusal to happen by wearing SOE, I\'ll leave it to others to report their own experiences in this forum.
So, some of you may ask, if you got all this attention, why are you on the computer now, rather than in bed with a newly acquired lover? Simple, I\'m new in town and don\'t know who the \"players\" are. Since I\'m not desparate for sex, I\'ll be content to wait and meet someone who\'s interested in more than just immediate sexual gratification. Besides, I find it hard to relate to most women when they (or I) have been drinking alcohol. I never have more than a couple beers, at most. But the barroom women often seem to have a problem knowing when to quit. Drunken women are not appealing to me, even though the SOE mix seemed to maintain its effect on making me more appealing to them.
Truthfully, I was embarrassed by one woman who insisted that she was going home with me, even after \"last call\" and despite my protests that I was going home to sleep. The woman who owned the bar, managed to convince her that she had to take a ride home from her--and several other people escorted her to waiting car. If this woman remembers anything tomorrow, she will probably be totally humiliated by her behavior, much of wish I must conclude was due to the pheromones, since I\'ve talked with her several times before in different settings.
I hope that all your experiences with SOE are rewarding. One final comment: several women said that they wanted SOE to wear themselves--they liked it so much, and could care less that it was designed to attract women.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, James, this was an incredible experience for you, but how much of this treatment do you think arose because you told them that you do research in sexual behavior and have created a love potion called Scent of Eros?!

[jvkohl]

It\'s hard to estimate what percentage of the behavior exhibited towards me was simply due to my general mannerisms and talk about my research. Typically, I don\'t do too badly picking up single women. But the behavior in the bar last night was not directed only to me, and not only by single women. Besides, the music was loud, so I didn\'t talk much. On the other hand, the most agressive women from last night had been somewhat agressive before--so her interest in me might well have been with or without SOE. Last night, though, she was too agressive--really driven to get me to take her home with me.
When other men tried SOE their wives/girlfriends/women they were trying to pick up --all seemed to express much more interest. Granted, the SOE fragrance is great, but I think the pheromones also were at work. I\'ve never seen anything like this before, in any situation, and I have been to this bar about 5 or 6 times before--including for a New Year\'s party.
The bottom line is that anecdotal evidence, like from last night, usually doesn\'t mean much on its own. But, if enough people have similar experiences, even such anecdotal evidence is worth looking at more closely to try and determine whether it\'s the pheromones or merely phenomenon.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How much of SOE did you wear?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yea I\'d like to know how much of it did you wear and where did you apply it? Oh and is it a spray bottle or open mouth bottle?

[a.k.a.]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by James V. Kohl:
The bottom line is that anecdotal evidence, like from last night, usually doesn\'t mean much on its own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! images/icons/shocked.gif

Actually anecdotal evidence means more to me than talk of lipids, androgens, and scent preferences. So would you say the effects were subtle or dramatic? Did women respond immediately, or did the effects seem to accumulate the more time you spent with a woman?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James Kohl wrote:

When other men tried SOE their wives/girlfriends/women they were trying to pick up --all seemed to express much more interest... I\'ve never seen anything like this before, in any situation, and I have been to this bar about 5 or 6 times before--including for a New Year\'s party.

Question:

Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I thought most, if not all, of these men and women were aware of the pheromones (?). I wouldn\'t be too surprised if you told a room full of people that there are pheromones in the room designed to arouse them that they would behave differently. I\'d like to hear more andecdotal observations from people who don\'t announce the pheromones.

[travis]

Hello,

I got my SOE that I ordered Tuesday yesterday Wenesday via Federal Express the delivery wasn\'t too bad (can\'t bit that) but it cost me almost half the purchased price thats ok at least my curiosity about SOE was over. I test drive the product of James Kolh and I would say something is in it. I have noticed behaviors, mine as well as women.

First, let me say what I think about the product. The idea of having it in roll on is much better than spray, you have control on the amount you use. As to the scent it is very mild w/c I love it because it does not hurt my nose when I smell it. It is something that when you smell the cologne you just wanted to smell it, smell it, smell it and ask yourself and think what kind a scent is that. You tend to think of a smilarity but its just hard to compare.

As far as behavior is concern, first,I\'ve noticed it to myself. I am not extrovert person maybe because I\'m in different country and english is my second language. images/icons/crazy.gif But when I tried using SOE something has changed in me, when I was around women I was confidently talking to them, why? images/icons/crazy.gif I don\'t care if my grammar is correct or wrong I\'ll just say anything that comes into my mind. That is good right? But, when I\'m alone I just feel normal. And for the women\'s behavior, everyday when I drop the daugther of my friend at school parents have to wait at the hall way of the build before bringing the children inside the classroom. I thought of using SOE no other cologne or what so ever before taking my friends daugther to school and see how it works. Before, when I go there I just get some looks no smiles but this time I was just getting smiles everywhere in the building images/icons/wink.gif then, I just found myself talking to the parents, whats going on here? I something is in the air inside the building that made the people pleasant. images/icons/laugh.gif I\'ll let you know more about my experience with SOE.

I followed James advised applying to the skin and I guess it worked darn well.

travis images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Good job travis. Im really interested in buying SOE too. On the english thing I understand too since I come a Latin American Country but I just watched a lot of american t.v. and that helped me learn the language because I didn\'t just watch the television show passively and contend myself w/ understanding the overall picture. I studied the way they talked english and tried to always make it part of my english. Now I haven\'t lost any of my culture but gained a second language which I speak so well people sometimes don\'t believe me that I was born in a latin country. Oh and getting jobs is very easy because of this fact.
Do that and it will help.

[jvkohl]

I covered the topic of how much SOE to use and how to apply it in a recent thread--still available if you have questions.

Glad to hear from travis on his experiences. I thoroughly agree that anecdotal evidence means more that scientific data.

When I first tried SOE in a social/barroom situation, I didn\'t spend enough time with any particular woman to see if the effect built up over time, and must conclude that the effect was fairly immediate. But there were several women who keep coming back to smell my neck (and one who bit me twice on the neck in the process--very annoying).

And I didn\'t announce to everyone that I had pheromones--though I didn\'t try to conceal the fact that I was experimenting, either. It probably was about 50/50 in the bar the first night, and more like 30% knew and 70% didn\'t on the second night, where I had similar effects.

Was doing some shopping at various small storefront places earlier that Saturday, after initial experiences on Friday night. Lots of helpful young ladies; all smiles. Could have been just the small town atmosphere and the fact that I was new to the town--about 20 miles from where I live. But, then again, I\'m 50 years old which makes any attention from young girls somewhat unusual. Women my own age are usually courteous, with a few usually showing interest whether or not I\'ve been wearing a fragrance. But, the young girls are different--usually not a second glance and rarely a smile. I think the SOE made a difference.

Best reports will come from others, though. Anything I say will be biased, despite trying to portray an accurate picture of results.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, how much did you use, Travis? Maybe, we should have Scientist determine how many ml per inch of roll is applied. :-).

[travis]

Truth,

I just slide the SOE behind my ears three times, two at the left side and one at the right side of my ear and I would say I\'d two inches long.

Title: \"ICE CREAM FROM THE HOUSE\"

Yesterday I went to the bank and deposit money at the ATM machine. But before living the house I applied SOE again three times with cologne \"Polo\". On my way to the bank my cell phone rang, it was my 5 year old dauther crying on the because I left without her knowledge. Her mother is with her at the house. She was terrebly upset at the phone, I thought of bribing her for an ice cream just to clam her down.

When I was at inside the ice cream house and looking at the flavors of the ice creams I could not decide what kind of ice cream I will give my dauther, and then, I remembered that her favorite is Jamoca shake. The only person inside the store is the sales lady who is a middle easterner, she look like shes\' from India, slim with long hair beautiful eyes with manicured thick eyebrow maybe shes in her 20\'s. She asked me if I am ready to order and I said yes. I ordered a large Jamoca shake and I said to her to split the shake into two cups, I will just share with my dauther.

While she was scooping the ice cream she was glancing at me so I smiled at her. She asked me if my dauther is in the car I said no shes at home and then, she said that she will make extra one for my dauther I told her that I have no extra money for the other shake, she said to me not to worry because the second one is from the house. I go What? then she said yeah from the house. Ok. After she was done with the shake I paid one large Jamoca shake and a free regular size. More to come.

Travis

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s always nice to get something for free isn\'t it? images/icons/laugh.gif
Travis, do you have any other pheromone products that just never worked for you? Or other combos that seem to be non-existent when you wear it? Coz I was wondering maybe if the other products didn\'t work for me, maybe the SoE will.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This is really rough, but I measured about .01ml per 10 inches or so. This is HIGHLY variable, due to the roller ball sticking, surface friction (more goes down on dry skin that skin you\'ve already treated), etc. Anyway, since it\'s 5mg in 10ml, that\'s .500 mg/ml, and a .01ml does is .005 mg. Target dosing would normally be .015 mg or so, which would imply 30 inches of roll.

Back and forth twice on a 5\" neck on both sides would get you pretty close.

But like I said, this is really rough. When the roller \"unsticks\" it deposits quite a bit.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wow, 30 inches! That seems like a lot for a product that\'s as concentrated as PI. :-).

[travis]

My success with SOE is INCREDIBLE. I am getting so many looks, eye contacts, smiles, and greets from ladies. My brother was supprised when we were at the gym yesterday he said \"wow!eek: man...girls are just greeting you left and right\" I wanted to tell him but I\'ll wait and surprise him more. images/icons/laugh.gif

School begins on Wenesday I could not wait to try this stuff inside the classroom.

Travis

[oscar]

Scientist,

Correct me if I\'m wrong. (I don\'t have my SOE yet). Those calculations would mean that on the night that JVK used 1ml of SOE, he rolled out 1000 inches of product on himself and those with whom he shared his stuff.

10 inches of roll from .01ml seems a bit high. If I were to use your 20 drops per ml guideline, this would mean that only one fifth of a drop was expended on a ten inch roll-on application. Something doesn\'t sound right here. 30 inches of roll-on has got to amount to more than three-fifths of a drop, unless you\'re using a ballpoint pen.
You\'re talking about one drop being able to stretch out to 50 inches.
I do agree that 3/5 of a drop is the proper dose (.015mg), given the 20 drop/ml rule, I just find it hard to believe that it takes 30 inches of rolling to get there.

Confused.
Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, I just got my SOE. The mail is a lot faster now. The shipment came in a week.

Anyway, I rolled four inches into my hand and thought it smelled nice. However, I doubt it takes 10 inches of roll to get 0.01 ml out (the amount of a dab). Could you do another test, Scientist?

By the way, the ball on the bottle doesn\'t seem to roll on paper or clothing for me, so we don\'t even have the option to try it on clothing unless we take the ball out. Has anyone tried SOE on clothing yet?

[oscar]

JVK et al.,

Just got my SOE too. Shipped 1/22 from Colorado, rec\'d 1/26 in suburban Philadelphia, Pa. It does look like the P.O is getting its act back together.

The scent is great, not at all what I\'d expected. I find it to be more of a citrus scent than a musky one. And the A-Rone seems to be very well balanced by the fragrance. I\'ve picked up Rone in mixes to the point that I believe that I\'m an \"A-Rone Super-Smeller\", but I\'ve got NO problems with this stuff.
Looking forward to field-testing tonight! images/icons/laugh.gif

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[jvkohl]

Truth;

Though I\'ve read that the roller ball can be easily removed and replaced, I still don\'t think that SOE on clothing is a good idea. It should be best when working with your own chemistry, by adding a little extra masculinity to what\'s naturally there.

Wilde Oscar,
Hope you\'ll try heating SOE by rubbing your wrists together; I think it was Bruce who said this brings out the RONE/NONE scent. Or perhaps the pit trick which favors the NONE. Let us know if you think the nature of SOE changes, and perhaps this will settle the issue of whether it should be applied to skin or to both skin and clothing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

TRAVIS,

Have you been going to the gym before without using pheros? If yes, do you usually get the same responses? Did you say girls were greeting you from left to right, do you mean they just say hi without you starting it?

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Redcapp ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I guess I can apply to skin underneath clothing and then press the shirt to the skin to get most of it on the shirt. Also, just letting the skin underneath the shirt emit will leave a lot pheros on the shirt.

James, your response to my question about the clothing application never satisfied me. From where we left off, I commented that whether the pheromones are applied to skin or clothing, the recipient still receives a scent mixture consisting of your natural skin scent, exogeneous pheromones, and clothing scent.

[jvkohl]

Truth,

Yes, exposure is a combination issue. What I hope to convey is that I think it\'s best to apply SOE to skin--making the emanations from skin more representative of better male \"chemistry.\" Whatever residual effects come from getting it on clothing are simply too unpredictable. Granted, they might be pleasant with NONE--if it is toned down by application to clothing. But RONE is a different compound and does not need to be toned down. The right amount of exposure would be more readily linked to skin application than to the more unpredicatable exposure attributed to clothing. At least that\'s what I found.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know, Jams. Skin would seem to be the more unpredictable medium with the variable release rate from heat, sweating, etc. and unknown amount of bacterial breakdown to -none.

[Whitehall]

Truth and James V. Kohl,

This is an area where empirical testing is the quickest way to the best solution. We\'re talking \"smell engineering\" here. Devise a reasonable test of relative effectiveness then test it!

I will say that my experience with SoE indicates that skin enzymes and/or bacteria have and important role in the effectiveness of the product. But then, I haven\'t applied it to my clothing. If I have any ideas on such a test, I\'ll post it.

[jvkohl]

Truth,
I agree that the skin application contains elements that make the response seem unpredictable. Still, if you look at the expected response from a mammalian perspective--clothing is only a consideration for humans. Other animals do fine with pheromonal communication from natural processes. That\'s why I keep saying apply SOE to skin, not clothes. Human pheromones work the same way other mammalian pheromones work. Clothing is an unnecessary consideration in this regard.

Besides, I can\'t think of any reason to test SOE effects when applied to skin, versus application to clothing. Even though this idea (thanks, Whitehall) seems good on the surface--there are probably as many different types of clothing to test as there are different bacteria at work on the skin breaking down hormones to pheromones. Too many variables, I think.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, a lot of people have noted changes in smell when SOE is applied to skin, suggesting a conversion to -none. James, you suggest that -none is not likely good. SOE is working for people. However, without the conversion to -none on clothing, it may work even better! In theory, it\'s an obvious thing to try.

[oscar]

truth,

I\'ll go the opposite direction here. I\'ll propose that WITH the conversion of A-Nol to A-None on SKIN, SOE may work even better.

It\'s my belief, and I think the belief of MANY others on this forum, that in the right quantity, the application of exogenous A-None IS beneficial, especially for the more mature phero user.

If a predetermined amount of skin-applied A-Nol product converts to A-None over time, while the (clothing-applied or) peripherally applied A-Nol product maintains its integrity, the user would end up wearing what would essentially be a layered phero aura.
The strategy would be similar in theory to cawwoting, but would require no initial application of A-None. This takes the layering theory to another level, as the user would be wearing NO scary pheros at the beginning of a social encounter, presuming application took place just prior to that time.

Granted, it will take a lot of experimentation to determine each individuals ideal conversion-targeted A-Nol application, but the outcome may well be worth the effort.

The pit trick seems the safest, most efficient way to accomplish this to me. So I suppose I\'ll have to get some non-deodorant soap before beginning the trials.

Have I stolen this concept from someone? Bruce perhaps? Please let me know.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

With conversion to -none, SOE may wind up becoming AE. I thought we wanted something different here...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think the conversion to -none is actually quite minimal, and if it is indeed converted it\'s not nearly as concentrated as AE here. in fact, the amount of -none converted probably can\'t measure up to any products out there and it is probably closer to a natural level

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The breakdown could also not just be none but other compounds found in normal human sweat, the body could actually produce more rone and nol to try to keep the body up with what it thinks is the external number along with none breakdown (remember aroudn the gonads naturally) also the other compounds discussed ie -diedone.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually, I heard that -dienone is the precursor to them all! So, if we apply -dienone to skin, we should get -none, -rone, -nol, and other pheros we haven\'t discovered yet.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh ok my thinking is round the wrong way ok so what are soem of the pheros we havnet discovered yet that could be an interesting one. Anyone got any information in this area that may also be related to the SOE and testing thread of which we are currently related etc.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, how long does a swipe of SOE last on the skin if you don\'t exercise? Comparable to AE and PI? Do the pheros last longer than the scent like with other products?

[oscar]

truth,

You\'re right, we did want something different here, and we\'ve got it. But besides SOE\'s potential to provide the A-None-free signals that it emits when applied
anywhere else BESIDES the pits, it also has the ability to present a dynamic that has thus far not been available to us.

I\'ll admit that the strategy I outlined in the post above may hold little or no interest for the younger phero users among us, but as a man whose natural Androstenone production might just be non-existent, I find it MOST interesting.

I\'m not saying that I want mass quantities of my SOE to convert to A-None. Hell, I\'ve got lots of stuff I can use towards that end, if that were my objective. And I\'m certainly not hypothesizing that ALL skin-applied SOE will convert to A-None either. The warm conditions of the pits and crotch make them the only places that this is likely to occur.

So if you don\'t want the A-Nol in SOE to convert, don\'t put it in these confined, warm areas. Put it on your hands. Put it on your neck. Put it on your clothes! You can put it on the hood of your car for all I care! You can use yours any way you want.

Earlier in this same thread you expressed concern about both the scent of skin AND the scent of clothing being sensed by the recipient of the pheromones. What do you propose to do, apply the pheros directly under the subjects nose while wearing latex gloves and a bio-hazard suit?

I know that you\'re not stupid or short-sighted. You obviously see how a strategy such as this might be beneficial to older users of pheros even if you don\'t happen to fall into that category at present. I think you just LIKE to be argumentative. But on the whole, the forum is a better learning experience for us all as a result.
But every now and then,.... images/icons/mad.gif
BTW: How IS my goat?

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[Whitehall]

geez, guys, stop arguing!

I\'d hate to break up a good theoritical debate, but a simple experiment or two would provide FACTS.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

As a new reader of this forum, I have the luxury of not knowing any of the other members. As I read it(and not knowing any background info) I don\'t see where Truth\'s questions are off-base or argumentative. I have read many of Wylde Oscar\'s posts and they have been very helpful from the newbie perspective. But at the same time, I think Truth brings up some valid questions that deserve consideration. If I interpret Truth\'s statements correctly, he is not implying that nol/rone decaying into none is a bad thing. He is simply saying that if this happens, then this is simply another delivery mechanism for the none. Granted, it has the added dimension of a nol/rone cloud to begin with as an ice-breaker. I believe it is a matter of perspective whether or not this added dimension(perhaps of benefit to us older guys) actually consitutes a new product or simply a newer/more convenient layering mechanism for the cawwoting effect described earlier. Of course, I have yet to even try pheros so I could be full of B.S., just trying to see both sides and keep an open mind.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nonetheless, I stop what I\'m doing to order some SOE and pledge to give it a whirl.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Crud, Whitehall, everyone was having a great time arguing (ie mental masturbation, fun to do but gets you nowhere) and you have to smash though it all with common sense. images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks Stanbo!

Yes, I\'m not arguing that it\'s undesirable to have some of the -nol or -rone convert to -none. However, I do prefer to know exactly what I\'m emitting. The possible conversion on skin creates uncertainty. So, is it generally agreed that -nol and -rone only converts in the axillary and pubic regions and not on the chest, arms, and neck?

I never expressed concern about the mixing of skin and clothing scents. James was saying that we should avoid applying the pheros to clothing to avoid mixing with clothing scent, and I was just pointing out that, to a recipient 3 feet away, this mixing occurs no matter where we apply the pheros.

[travis]

Let Truth exist, there are some members who have questions in thier mind and sometimes he expresses it (unknowingly) images/icons/smile.gif But on the other hand redandancy is annoying too. images/icons/mad.gif

Travis

[a.k.a.]

I just got my SOE yesterday, and what started out as a test turned into a dangerous liaison. No details, because a) those who believe me will be quick to moralize and b) you never know who reads these posts.

Here’s what I’ve got to report:

SOE smells great. IMO this stuff is comparable to name brand colognes. It’s complex, distinct and very well balanced.

You don’t need to add -none. My chem kit formulas have a higher ratio of -none than P10. I’m 43. AE doesn’t work for me, unless I spike it with more -none. If I can get SOE to work without added -none, I don’t see why anybody else should have any trouble.

I don’t consider SOE to be a unisex fragrance at all. Maybe it’s my skin chemistry, but even when I sniff the roller cap I think “manly scent”. On the other hand this stuff makes ME feel very horny. Either I’ve got some serious latency issues or this formula could prove successful for the ladies.

You don’t need much at all. A small swipe on either side of my neck and a dab between my wrists was plenty.

The roller top doesn’t work very well. I transferred my stuff to a dram bottle so that I can dab it on with my finger. I’ll see how that works today.

I don’t buy the stuff about -none = bad boy image, -rone = strong, reliable male image. On the other hand, I noticed a disturbing level of respect from other males. (I’m 5’ 8”, 150lbs., boyish features.) Hope I’m not scaring anybody. (I’m tempted to test it out at work, but I think I’ll wait a while.)

[Whitehall]

Walter Mitty, Wilde Oscar, Truth, et al,

Walter is quite right, you guys WERE having a great time arguing about a topical subject.

Sorry to try to throw cold water on the fun with an insistence on a factual foundation. Go right ahead!

Just let me know when you have it figured out AND you\'ve tested it in the real world. I\'m looking for effective techniques to better attract desirable female sexual partners - I\'ll leave the debate club to their mutual mental masturbation....
images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/wink.gif

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Whitehall ]

[oscar]

Gents,

I don\'t feel required to propose only tested theories here on the forum. It\'s through the process of debate that we get input to help the actual trials succeed. I\'m not in a situation where I feel compelled to present failed experiments prior to successful ones in order to be more adequately funded on my next research grant. I\'m the one doing the funding, so I want the first trial to be a success.

The process of debate prior to experimentation will hopefully allow me to avoid pitfalls that had not otherwise been obvious to me, and establish protocols that will make my findings more conclusive.

The extent to which a debate may become heated may be disturbing to some, but I find that my brain, like a cars engine, operates more productively when it\'s all warmed up.

Mental masturbation? Perhaps. Does anyone know a better way of getting off mentally ?

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Quite honestly, does anybody have a reference to the breakdown of the pheros? It has been eluded that bacteria are responsible for this on the skin, but the body also produces these things. I looked at a lot of the precursor molecules, and enzymes, and they seem to be fairly promiscous. In other words, there are a large range of molecules with that same 4 ring structure that the enzymes will work on. I am wondering (from a biochem stand point) why -dienone is considered the starting point? It doesn\'t make much sense biochemically.

So back to the original idea. Are there any refs on this?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To A.K.A.

Details please, about your SOE testing turning dangerous. We all know this is not a public \"say whatever you want forum\", but if you have something important to say go ahead. And If your sensored, banned or other, then so be it. As far as i know only one guy has been kick out of here.


To Whitewall

Couldn\'t agree with you more. I\'m on here to share or find out ways that phermones have already worked for people. i\'m on here to see how to increase sexual attraction from women. And that\'s the bottom line.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Huh, I think the roller ball on my SOE is working better after I dumped 1 ml into my bottle of CK1. Now, it rolls on clothing too. I just rolled a little on my dress shirt, and I can still see the swipe after 1/2 hour. Oh oh. =P.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thats it the old master is jumping in Order for SOE just went in will let you know in a couple of weeks how this one goes he he.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

4 hours and the swipe marks have faded a little but still clearly visible. I guess someone said that oil can stain clothing? Does it come off after a wash? I hope...

[oscar]

truth,

Give the stains a shot of Spray \'n Wash or Shout and let it sit for an hour or so before washing.

All,

Warning! While I have used the aforementioned stain-removal products in the past, I have never done so on an SOE stain.
For this reason some of you will probably want to wait and see if truth has success with this method before trying it yourselves. images/icons/laugh.gif

Sitting back and saying, \"Let me know when you\'ve got this totally ironed out, before expecting me to try it.\", is so completely contrary to the spirit and purpose of this forum, that frankly I\'m disgusted.
What we\'ve enjoyed here in the past was a willingness on the part of a great many members to experiment simultaneously to attempt to achieve success.
\"What if I tried it with X product?\" or \"I\'m going to double that amount and see what happens!\", are things that I\'m much more accustomed to hearing here.
Things have changed.

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[Whitehall]

Please, forge ahead!!!

We need pioneers out there on the bleeding edge, staining their nice shirts with their concoctions, offending innocent bystanders with their stinks, etc.

Some of us are scientists - some of us are just horndogs.

We horndogs respect you scientists, we really, really do!

I promise not to complain any more.

Forgive me?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey now Whitehall, some of us are Horndog Scientists... images/icons/smile.gif

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[jvkohl]

Walter Mitty;
The bacterial conversion of OL to NONE was mentioned in Amoore, J.E., Pelosi, P., & Forrester, L.J. (1977) Specific anosmias to 5alpha-androst-16-en-3-one and w-pentadecalactone: The urinous and musky primary odors. Chemical Senses and Flavor, 2,, 401-425. My notes also suggest that there is a chart showing the conversion in Gower, D.B., Holland, K.T., Mallet, A.I., Rennie, P.J., & (1994) Comparison of 16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and axillary secretions:Interconversions of 16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a mechanism for.. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, 48, 4, 409-418.--sorry, no time to check on this by pulling the articles from my files. Just wanted to let you know that this conversion is commonly discussed in the journals.

Meanwhile, this Forum is more fun than the scientific debates in which I typically participate--until everyone realizes there\'s no biologically based model for visually perceived attraction (then they all go stupidly silent). Also, since a recent divorce, I\'ve converted from scientist to scientist/horndog. If not for the divorce, I\'m fairly certain SOE would not have seen the light of day, since my ex always had difficulty with experimentation that brought me too much contact from other women. But now I\'m free to enjoy everything that\'s come about from my research. Simply put, though the divorce action dragged on for nearly a year, and was a horrid experience, the end result is great!

[Whitehall]

There are indeed genetically imprinted visual templates used in sexual attraction!!! I hope you\'re not saying otherwise since it flies in the face of much research and common experience. Why a universal waist to hip ratio? Why do rounded parts of the female form act as secondary sexual attractors (soft shoulders, for example?)

The human mind is has to practice sensor integration in real time - scent, sight, voice, tactile. It\'s all a balance and a blending - a neural network in action.

Smell (pheromones ) has gotten short-shift over the years and needs tremendous catch-up but one needn\'t diss the other senses. That offers big market opportunities.

But I ask you, will pheromones ever replace silicon breast implants? HA! Supplement, yes, replace? Not in a million.

Enjoy your new-found freedom - I\'m jealous!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well according to James\'s theory, if everyone uses pheromones, visually conditioned perception of attractiveness will become weaker since good smell is no longer associated with physically attractive people.

[jvkohl]

Whitehall: \" There are indeed genetically imprinted visual templates used in sexual attraction!!!\"

James: If you are so certain of this, please try to find any literature that attests to the biological pathway in which these genetically imprinted visual templates are functional.

Whitehall: \"I hope you\'re not saying otherwise since it flies in the face of much research and common experience.\"

James: What I\'ve repeatedly said is that there is neither a mammalian model, nor any biological pathway from visual or other non-olfactory sensory input to sexual attraction. This does not fly in the face of any research I know about, since there is no research on mammals that suggests sexual behavior is driven by anything other than pheromones. Those who believe the common experience argument have been conned into thinking that humans somehow developed a completely different means by which to promote sexual behavior. We didn\'t!

Whitehall: \"Why a universal waist to hip ratio? Why do rounded parts of the female form act as secondary sexual attractors (soft shoulders, for example?)\"

James: All secondary sex characteristics (like those above) develop due to sex differences in levels of hormones that metabolize into--yes, you guessed it--pheromones. In the October issue of Neuroendocrinology Letters, the waist-to-hip ratio was an example I used of how we\'ve been conned into thinking this is a visually based aspect of physical attraction. Also included was facial/bodily symmetry, genetically determined odor choice, etc.

Whitehall: \"The human mind is has to practice sensor integration in real time - scent, sight, voice, tactile. It\'s all a balance and a blending - a neural network in action.\"

James: Of course integration is the key, but without pheromones there is no basis for any balance. Pheromones drive the neural network that links the social environment to the development of sexual behavior. If there is no sex difference in the processing of sensory input, it\'s not possible to get to sex differences in behavior. Our olfactory system is sexually dimorphic at birth. Other senses are the same in both sexes--so how does one develop a preference for the opposite sex? Or, same sex for that matter--try to explain homosexuality with anything other than a mammalian biological model based on olfaction. It can\'t be done--at least by any behavioral development specialist I know--and I know most of the top specialists is the various disciplines.

Whitehall: \"Smell (pheromones ) has gotten short-shift over the years and needs tremendous catch-up but one needn\'t diss the other senses. That offers big market opportunities.\"

James: Typically, as soon as I get to the point where I ask what biological model a particular specialist is using to develop their visually based approach to sexual attraction, the conversation/debate ends. Most of these folks get quite perturbed when they find out they\'ve spent their entire career studying visually based attraction, without realizing that visually based attraction originates with sex differences in olfaction. Then, the debate ends.

Whitehall: But I ask you, will pheromones ever replace silicon breast implants?

James: Great example. Tell us why men prefer large-breasted women. My explanation is based on olfactory conditioning of the visual response based on the pheromone-hormone connection that begins at birth. Every breast is large to an infant male--so the males imprint on the breast as they do on any other reward system. But this imprinting is driven by pheromones.


Whitehall: \"HA! Supplement, yes, replace? Not in a million.\"

James: Where did you get the idea that I\'m saying that pheromones replace visual input? Obviously the pheromones must be there for conditioning of other sensory input to occur. But, the other sensory input is unnecessary to reproduction--a functional olfactory system is all that\'s required. From what you\'ve said, it seems like you believe that reproduction would occur if based solely or collectively on visual or other non-olfactory sensory input. All research points to a lack of olfactory ability and lack of reproductive behavior. Also, alter olfactory ability and you get differences in reproductive sexual, and non-reproductive sexual behavior--like asexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality, all of which can be explained by my olfactory model--but not by any visual model. Simply put, Whitehall--you have no evidence for visual templates--you just think they are important because someone said they are, not because any non-olfactory biological-based research offers any explanation of how or why these visual templates develop. You\'ve been conned into \"thinking\" that thinking about what we see is important to the development of sexual behavior. Though our thoughts enter the picture in mate choice, they have nothing to do with the development of sexual behavior--neither does visual input.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know if you guys are aware of this, but there have been \"beauty\" studies done with infants. It was shown(and don\'t ask me to cite a paper cause I saw it on discovery channel) that infants as young as a few months old are able to determine beauty due to symmetry in a human face exactly as older humans who can verbally communicate can. The babies stared at both photos on t.v. and also live humans holding them. The human photos with high symmetry(and considered pretty) made the babies stare for a significantly longer amount of time compared to a nonsymmetric(kinda ugly) face. I doubt if a newborn has had much chance to associate symmetry and beauty with sex and pheromones, unless it\'s hardwired somehow. Well I\'m off to test straight NPA cause I\'m kinda worried it doesn\'t work at all for me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think James\'s theory that visual perception of beauty is conditioned by pheromones is good. However, even if it\'s true, these conditioned responses are important to mate selection regardless of how they arose. I think James has been careful not to imply that these conditioned responses are not important.

My biggest question is whether supplemental pheromones can exert their full effect when conditioned visual preferences are very strong. This relates also to the issue of androstadienone -- it may be the true pheromone driving the conditioned response to -none, -nol, and -rone, but the latter compounds eventually become strong drivers of behavior as well (as do silicon breast implants!).

[jvkohl]

This thread has diverged into discussion about pheromones versus visual input--see new SOE topic heading. Hope someone will also begin a new thread about their experiences with SOE.