Rhynoplasty-nose job + pheros.

[bronzie]

Maybe

im sharing to much with this forum, but since im about to get my nose re arranged, literally. I have read that a

nose job destroys the VNO, it no longer functions after the procedure. For the gurus out there that know more about

this than I ,is this really the case? Last thing I want is to be splashing on Primal Instinct like its after shave

and not smelling a thing, and in the process everyone od's on that cat piss smell.

Also, another point I

want to address is that, if the VNO is such an important factor in pheromone effectivness, what goes on with all the

women/girls out there that have had nose jobs, and these days having your nose done is as common as getting your

wisdom teeth out. You cannot go out to a bar or cafe and not meet or see a girl that has not had the procedure. And

the girls are getting it done younger and younger these days. In fact parents are giving thier daughters the

surgical procedure as a Graduation gift in growing numbers. What has female narccism come too?, brand names are just

not enough anymore!

[jvkohl]

Garcia Velasco, J., & Garcia Casas,

S. (1995) Nose surgery and the vomeronasal organ. Aesth. Plast. Surg. 19, 451-454.

My notes:
The idea that

the human VNO is probably involved in pheromone detection comes from several lines of evidence. Enough information

shows receptors, afferents, and autonomic reflex to explain certain social and behavioral phenomena. Surgeons must

preserve the VNO and determine loss of function if prior damage has been done.
------------------------
Since

this was published, it has been conclusively shown in both animal and human studies that the human VNO is not

required for pheromones to elicit their effects.

Shepherd, G. M. (2006). Behaviour: Smells, brains, and

hormones. Nature, 439, 149-151.

Shepherd (2006) has summarized recent olfactory/pheromonal research findings

and clarified concerns with regards to an ongoing debate about the presence or absence of a functional human

vomeronasal organ (VNO). Both the main olfactory pathway and VNO-enabled accessory olfactory pathway process

pheromones, so there is no need for a human VNO.
-------------------------------------

On the other hand,

if it was me--I would make sure that the surgeon knew about earlier and more recent

findings.


JVK

[surfs_up]

They look weird up close. Cosmetic surgery has improved hugely over the last decade.... and it still looks

abnormal, also causes strange shifts in the voice tone, the "nose job voice" .... a hint of Donald Duck

[bronzie]

jvkohl, as a professional you

have brought great insight into my question, in my next consultation with the nose surgeon im going to take a giant

poster sized picture of the VNO and point to its location with a stick, and if he doesnt know what a VNO is, im

going to be very angry and worried!! In fact, I should take along my whole collection of pheromones just so he knows

im not joking.


Surfs Up, mention any actor in hollywood and chances are 99% that they have a nose job. As

for changing the voice, in fact most people that have the rhynoplasty procedure also have a septum reconstruction

(those who have natural abnormalities and people that have broken it in training like in boxing or martial arts) at

the same time which means clears up nasal breathing problems, hence voice becomes clearer not worse.

As for

looking abnormal, thats not really true, a good procedure means a more delicate balanced look and one cannot tell if

the procedure was done in the first place.

What I find interesting is that people that have this surgery do

it to look more western - anglo - celtic features. Jews and Eastern europeans with the "stereotypical" large nose

tend to chop off, Asians and Africans tend to add cartlidge to make smaller and more defined. I dont know the reason

behind this...

[surfs_up]

Maybe I'm hanging around too may B list girls who got B list nose jobs... you're right that there

is a level of work on faces that is soo good you have to squint to notice it... I'm often thinking, gosh, look at

that lousy nose on her, like a squished leprachaun's proboscis... do people request such tasteless modifications or

does their surgeon impose them... ? 20 years ago you saw truly horrifying facial work, sheer butchery... man,

there's still something about a beautiful natural unmessed with face, like great natural tits, so inviting, so

touchable... sheez... I saw before and after photos of Paris Hilton... could that be the same human being ? Jennifer

Aniston too... WHO is doing this work ? Obviously Joe and Sally Schmoe can't afford it.... must cost a bloody

fortune.

[bronzie]

surfs up, i dont think thier are

any B list girls out there, and certainly to become a plastic surgeon you simply cannot be B list to begin with, to

perform a nose job.

Just my preference, i rather prefer the look of a girl that has a "nose" of a sparrow

then a pelican. And even if i know she did it out of vanity.

But, i see where your comming from, come guys

like women shaven, some guys dont.

in the end beauty cant hide a bad personality, nose job or not.

[jvkohl]

jvkohl, as a

professional you have brought great insight into my question, in my next consultation with the nose surgeon im going

to take a giant poster sized picture of the VNO and point to its location with a stick, and if he doesnt know what a

VNO is, im going to be very angry and worried!! In fact, I should take along my whole collection of pheromones just

so he knows im not joking.

My guess would be that very few surgeons are aware of it, though the

citation attests to the potential for liability if the structure is damaged. Depending on the procedure, damage may

be likely. However, regarding liability, the surgeon could cite the latter study and eliminate damages in

litigation. Your need for the surgery probably takes precedence, regardless. I sincerly hope that you find a surgeon

who is informed, and concerned. But you might also present yourself as a knowledgable potentially litigious patient,

and that could be a disadvantage to anyone who needs a physician's

help.

JVK

[bronzie]

jvkohl, you are right about not

pushing the subject too far with a nose surgeon, firstly because they all think after years of training, who is this

lay guy that has no medical background trying to say to me, a hint of arrogance that all Surgeons possess, and

secondly the liability issue, but I presume it would be a very difficult case to even bring to a court or even

present to a Lawyer, I wouldnt want to have multipile surgeons looking up my nose after the procedure was done to

check if my VNO was damaged, I honestly dont think they would know what to look for and it would be fruitless! As

ironic as this may sound, I think people that are scent professionals such as yourself are more sensitive to the

structure of the nose than a surgeon in regards to scent, nose surgeons are just trained with the structure and

rectify a problem with the "knife" like breathing and asthetics, and alot are driven by the money (plastic surgeons

especially) and not of any ethical hypocratic oath reason.

I will bring it up regardless, and if he pisses me

off and goes on a tangem, I will just pick another Surgeon, very simple.

As for your earlier post, saying

that pheromones work regardless of the VNO, I dont know, but I know this, I have had many gf's with nose jobs that

have responded perfectly to pheromones, and one in particular had major internal nose surgery while I was still her

boyfriend, in fact I was by her bedside in hospital at recovery, and even two years down the track after her

procedure, she loved pheromones, the smell of .none especially, I would wear your product with Primal Instinct and

she loved that too, all over me telling me how good I smelt, I wore no cover scent by the way as I wore the scented

, scent of eros at the time. Conclusion is one of 2 things, if the VNO is damaged its not needed for pheromes to

work, if its not and is needed than obviously it does not get damaged by the procedure.

[koolking1]

good luck with it!!!

[DrSmellThis]

I personally would not have

anything done to my nose unless the surgeon could reassure me the VNO would not be damaged, or unless I believed

the surgery was really necessary for whatever reason. It shouldn't be hard for the surgeon to locate (at least

approximately) near the top back of the septum, but below the bone. You can Google it to view the

anatomy.

There is a big difference in logic between saying the VNO isn't required for some pheromones to have

some important effects (what we currently know); and believing the VNO has no useful function. If you don't

understand this distinction, please make yourself understand it.

The latter belief is not in line with

what we know, which is that the human VNO is somehow active and responds to some pheromones in some way. We don't

know the degree to which this is true yet, and in what ways it is true. Less is known about the VNO, partially

because one very protective company seems to have a monopoly on most of the VNO research; as well as a patent on a

device that detects electrical activity from the human VNO.

I am inclined to think we will discover quite a bit

more about the functionality of the VNO, because it makes sense evolutionarily to have some functions connect

straight from the environment to the brain, bypassing the complexities of standard olfaction. This is of course a

theory.

But for now the safest way to think about it is that there are two main paths through which pheromones

work in mammals: Through regular olfaction and through the VNO (marine mammals may typify a third path about which

little is known).

I personally would not like to lose one of the paths. One fear, honestly, is that I'd be

with some amazing lady and wouldn't respond to her quite as I would wish. (Again, this is different from believing

the VNO is required for any sexual response; a belief which isn't supported by the evidence).

[bronzie]

DrSmellThis, I will take it up

with the surgeon, and honestly, if he does not know what it is or never heard of it, I will seriously reconsider his

services, there is alot of literature on the internet on the VNO as you have mentioned, and if a specialist in the

field doesnt know about it, its very worrying indeed.

[jvkohl]

DrSmellThis, I will

take it up with the surgeon, and honestly, if he does not know what it is or never heard of it, I will seriously

reconsider his services, there is alot of literature on the internet on the VNO as you have mentioned, and if a

specialist in the field doesnt know about it, its very worrying indeed.

Most of the internet

literature is the result of Erox/Pherin/Human Pheromone Sciences marketing claims, and not due to independent

research. This puts physicians in a position of trying to wade through what most will consider too much information.

Even specialists are at a loss when it comes to conflicting information. Since the latest paper (Shepherd, 2006)

adamantly places the human VNO on the backburner, that's where it stays, unless another respected authority

challenges Shepherd's stance. This is unlikely given that Shepherd is merely voicing an opinion shared by the

majority of olfactory researchers, who might be wrong, but who (along with data from animal studies) convinced me to

forget about VNO issues several years ago.

From an article (by me) in press:
"As with mammalian pheromones

that are associated with hormone metabolism, the activity of MHC-associated pheromones is not restricted to activity

generated from the VNO. It has recently become clearer that MHC-associated pheromones, like other mammalian

pheromones, can be processed in the main olfactory system (Spehr, Kelliher, Li, Boehm, Leinders-Zufall, & Zufall,

2006). HLA-associated putative human pheromones are also expected to be processed in the main olfactory system of

humans."

Since recent reports continue to come up with data that shows the human VNO is not likely to be

necessary, and it has yet to be shown to have any connection to the hypothalamus (as in other mammals), and because

the compounds marketed as putative human pheromones by Erox/Pherin/Human Pheromone Sciences have been shown to

differentially activate the hypothalamus of males, females, and homosexual males, I would hate to hear that anyone

over-reacted to a physician's knowledge base on this topic.

JVK

[bronzie]

jvkohl, as the plastic surgeon

is a close relative of mine, and a very prominant and famous surgeon in his field in London England, I will take

what he says in faith, (when in a 747 Jumbo, you do not question the pilots credentials and skills eventhough your

life is in thier control) in fact I called him up for the next appointment, and mentioned the VNO in passing, he

knew what it is but did not elaborate. You are right, physicians at his level in first world countries are not

"Quakes", but perfume companies and pheromone companies are highly market driven enterprises with a very high level

of competition and will bring up anything to sell thier product.