Copulins

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What are copulins? Are they chemicals that act like pheromones or what? Do the female products have male-attracting pheromones and the copulins or just the normal pheromones and copulins along w/ it?
Have any guys smelled the copulins? Its kind of a theory of mine that the copulins might raise our (men) libido and hence the testosterone levels in our bodies. This can help for many things of course one which could be increase in muscle building capabilities, and more competitive aggression while playing sports. Thats why I asked if anyone smelled it? To see if you noticed any effects that are similar to increase in testosterone?
If this works maybe a guy can put some on before going to bed (because it wouldn\'t be good for a straight guy to wear this during the day) and maybe there would be some higher testosterone outputs.
Oh and also testosterone increases energy too. Hmm...phero-medicines. What do you guys think?

[Bruce]

Copulins is a pheromone produced naturally by women and extcreted into the vaginal fluid. There is a great article (if I do say so myself) in a back issue of the Pheromone News. See: http://love-scent.com/zine (\"http://love-scent.com/zine\")
Click on back issues. It covers a study done a while back by Astrid Jutte.
Chemically it is in a different class altogether from the various \"ANDRO\" pheromones we are usually talking about here, but it has been clearly shown to act as a pheromone. Check the article for details.

I wouldn\'t worry about being attacked by men while wearing copulins. My guess is that women become excited by the scent of their own copulins during intercourse. It is the context and habit that determines how we react.

What really confuses me about copulins is the absence of any smell in all the commercially prepared potions that claim to contain the pheromone. If you take a look at the article in the Pheromone News concerning it, you will see that Dr. Jutte is quoted as reporting that it \"stinks!\" James Kohl has asked me not to quote him publically on what the stuff smells like, and an Australian chemist who works with pheromones says the stuff smells so raunchy that he gave up on his project of trying create a cologne with enough copulins in it to have any real effect!!!!!!!! Huh? So, why can you not smell anything whatsoever in the new women\'s Primal, and nothing that would suggest that familiar \"down yonder\" fragrance exists in either of the Stone Lab products which are reported to contain copulins. I just don\'t get it... images/icons/crazy.gif
Bye for now,
B

[Whitehall]

I, for one, have my doubts about copulins. I suspect they are released during vigorous sex but not during normal day-to-day activities.

My theoritical arguments follow the notion that women prefer to NOT advertise their ovulations. By keeping this a secret, they have better control over men and can best select a DNA donor while not having their partner lose interest. Again, this is based on the science presented in \"Sperm Wars\" a comprehensive look at the science of reproduction from an evolutionary perspective.

If copulins are only released during the sex act, then it wouldn\'t matter - she\'s already got her man. The appeal of the \"smell of sex\" as a girlfriend once called it, is limited to when one is aroused - as a first clue, when not aroused, it could be off-putting. Therefore the function of copulins would be to further arouse a man to help him complete insemination, not to get him in bed in the first place. Women have many other, highly effective tools for that function.

That said, I THINK I can tell by smell when a woman is ovulating - not from aromas from \"down there\" but from the head hair and neck. Wishful thinking? We all know that women just smell so darn good! I\'ve also noted that having sex with post-menopausal women just doesn\'t have the same thrill as with fertile women - its more like masturbation - that\'s probably from a lack of pheromones. But copulins...I don\'t think they are the true messenger.

My recommendation is...keep looking.

[jvkohl]

Astrid Jutte brought a sample vial of her ovulatory copulin mix to a presentation in San Diego a few years ago. The reason I asked Bruce not to tell you what I thought of the mix was because I put it very crassly, since it smelled exactly like I would expect it to smell. Astrid says to her it \"stinks\" which could be expected since she is a heterosexual woman who is much less likely than me to respond to the natural odor of a woman\'s vagina. Her study showed that men\'s testosterone levels increased after 15 minutes of exposure to the copulins by up to 150%. When I smelled the copulins, I didn\'t measure my testosterone level, but the memory association seemed to provide a boost in pleasant thoughts of a very sexual nature.

Pheromone medicines: If ever I can get someone to reproduce Astrid\'s mix, I would definitely take a whiff before my regularly scheduled weight-lifting efforts, since the likelihood of a testosterone increase in response to the copulins is extreme. But predictably, this type of effect might work as well as hormone-replacement therapy with androgens works in men with low testosterone levels. The delivery method could be much more pleasant than injections; patches, or gels. So, applications in anti-aging medicine also are practical.

So, why can\'t I reproduce Astrid\'s mix. I\'ve asked her several times to make me some samples, and she has told me each time that I should be able to make it simply by using the concentrations of short-chain fatty acids that were used by RP Michael in his work with rhesus monkey females. Sure, I could probably make a good effort, but acquisition of the materials requires too much effort for me--I\'m not much of a chemist, and have forgotten most of what I once knew about how to mix up a particular solution containing the right amounts of several different components. Astrid is concerned that she will break a professional code of conduct by producing RP Michael\'s mix for others--especially if they aren\'t researchers. She says since it\'s not her mix, she is not comfortable with anything that might lead towards product marketing. But you can be sure that next time I see her, I\'ll be trying to convince her to go commercial.

And yes, I almost forgot. The concealed ovulation theory has fallen flat. Dev Singh and Matt Bronstad (both were at a prestigious conference I attended in 2000) published an article last year that showed men prefer the scent of women who are ovulating. Besides, there are other studies that show how a woman\'s pheromones regulate hormone levels in men. Women may not advertize that they are ovulating with any visual cues, but they cannot conceal the olfactory cues.

[Whitehall]

Even if the hypothesis of evolutionary advantage to women of concealed ovulation is dismissed, it doesn\'t mean that copulins are the advertisement. From my experience, a woman who is ovulating smells different (and better) but she doesn\'t smell like copulins, at least before sexual arousal.

So ovulation pheromones may well exist but they aren\'t necessarily or exclusively copulins.

[Whitehall]

And another thing...

Ovulation can be delayed then triggered by coitus so that conception follows coitus and ovulation by up to three days. Hence, a female advertising her ovulation is not necessary. Of course, most men and women voluntarily avoid coitus during menstruation which is an infertile period and which does have a distinct, offputting odor.

While men may think women smell better during ovulation, it is a leap to presume that this makes a difference in the odds of men initiating coitus. Women may be more proceptive from internal stimulus, but men needn\'t chase them more.

So, not sure that the hypothesis of concealed ovulation is rejected due to this one study.

Guess I\'ll have to do more field study - sniffing women in bars and asking very personal questions. Thankfully, we Californians have banned smoking in bars.

[Teak]

A report on the effects of copulins on men by Astrid Jütte:
http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/student/html/astr id/femphers.html (\"http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/student/html/astrid/femphers.html\")

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey guys.. I don\'t know if this has ANYTHING to do with coplins but...

When I was in the Navy a buddy told me this.
He said \" Next time you have sex with a girl. (god how does one say this in a public forum)Wipe her wetness on your neck on both sides. When you get home spray some cologne on your chest and go out\"

I thought he was nuts but, I was young and I did it. Always got a big laugh from the girls while doing this. Now I shit you not. Women would ALWAYS come up to me. It was unmistakable. If I would ask them to smell my perfume and point to my neck.. well thier mood would change totally after they smelled there. They would say things like. G..O..D.. what is that ?

This ALWAYS worked.. ALWAYS every time

MacAttack.. Always helping his bros out..

[xvs]

JVK or anyone:

The best I\'ve been able to find is that some of them may be acetic acid (vinegar), propanoic acid, and butanoic acid.

Does that match with what you know? Do we know exactly what\'s in the \"copulin containing\" products that are sold and what concentrations?

Or what the concentrations should be?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I´m thinking about ordering PCC just for fun, I too think it can be useful. images/icons/laugh.gif

If women sense you are around women a lot, they might see you as a guy who is worth to be with. images/icons/wink.gif

[Whitehall]

re: Old Sailor\'s Tale - it\'s just ancient wisdom...

The best way to get lucky is to be lucky.

Seriously, I\'ve intended to order PCC to test this out myself. Also, since my female companions are usually in their 40\'s, I intend to see if PCC on the females stimulates either or both of us. Like Benjimin Franklin said, \"Older women appreciate the attention so much more...\"

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James,
I can\'t understand why it is difficult the acquisition of materials. All of them are available at Sigma and they are absolutely cheap (with about 90$ you will have copulins for years).

[xvs]

Jorge:

assuming that which chemicals are copulins and in what concentrations and ratios???

[**DONOTDELETE**]

xvs,

I posted some days ago the recipe to make copulins. It is very simple.And only to say that men don´t smell copulins because our treshold to feromones is under our conciousness so a woman don´t need to smell like hell to attract us, is more subtil.

[Teak]

Found this quote from a study:

http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub2.htm (\"http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub2.htm\")
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>
The fatty acid mixture (copulin) and another similar substance (hydroxyphenylpropionicacid) influence the assessment of men by women to a considerable extent.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Teak ]

[xvs]

here is Jorge\'s formula again, in case anyone missed it (as I did):

The title of the paper is \"Human vaginal secretions:
volatile fatty acid content\"
Science 1974 186:1217-1219.
My recipe is:
Acetic acid.........2,25 g in 10 ml
Propanoic acid .....0,653 \"
Isobutyric acid ....0,059 \"
Butyric acid .......0,271 \"
Isovaleric acid ....0,153 \"
Methylvaleric acid ..0,021 \"

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Some posters say a straight guy wouldn´t want to wear copulins in public, but on the other hand I read Bruce´post saying he can´t smell anything in the copulins products.

It might not be too bad to wear them, I am definitely tempted to try some new things. It´s not that my old mones aren´t working, they work great, but I just want to try to make it even better.

Therefore I´m planning to buy PCC and A-1. This leads to a possible NPA/SOE/A-1/PCC combo. Yes, I am definitely going to give that combo a go sooner or later.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So how are copulins attrack women? I\'m just a bit confused as anyone who would think twice before wearing PI/w.

~Curious Dude??

[Whitehall]

I would speculate that women get turned on by observing sex just like guys do except they are less visual and more scent-oriented. Copulins are released during sex (not necessarily during ovulation) and so are a signal that somebody\'s getting some. That signals to other women that its time to have sex too. May be a key to orgies.

Therefore, a guy wearing copulins is broadcasting that he has had sex recently and so is \"socially validated.\"

Now, I call this \"speculation\" because I can\'t grace it with the tag of \"theory.\" I am building on the thinking in the book \"Sperm Wars.\" That is a must-read for anyone interested in pheromones, IMHO.

[proteus]

Perhaps this might be one of the reasons that a guys in a relationship with a lady tends to get more interest from ladies - I\'ve noticed when I\'m involved with a gal that for some reasons more ladies will very obviously hit on me - now sure this could be to do with other more simple explanations but I think you may be onto something about the copulins from her perhaps giving you \"validation\" - I\'m ordering PCC today and going to test it and will post results.

[Teak]

I know a number of guys who have noticed if they are seen with a woman (even if it\'s just a friend and they aren\'t being affectionate or close) they tend to get more looks from other women than if they were on their own. At a nightclub, walking down the street, shopping, whatever. Even the women have said they also noticed this. Since that is not within pheromone distance, there might be factors to consider.

I\'d guess that even though us humans are socially advanced (thus more factors to consider) we still have many latent basic animal instincts and behaviours that we subconsciously adhere to. So along with female scent on a male validating him, maybe in the wild you can find pack animals where the alpha male has a number of mates (maybe he is the only one in the pack allowed to mate) and conditioning tells the female that a male with mate is likely to be the alpha-male and therefore they take more interest?

[proteus]

Well I\'ll put this to test as I\'ve ordered PCC/w and will experiment with it over the next few weeks once I get it. Will probably add some -none too as I don\'t want to get hit on by guys images/icons/smile.gif - I figure the combo of a little -none (alpha male) with some copulins (scent of a woman) should get the ladies very curious. Should be interesting images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ve noticed this too.I can go a long while without any girls paying me any interest,but as soon as I have a new girlfriend loads of them just jump out of the woodwork and I get hit upon from all directions.This happens every time with out fail,If these copulins have that effect I\'m definately getting some.
Proteus Please keep us all informed of your progress.
Waiting with eager anticipation.
Taffy. images/icons/wink.gif

[Whitehall]

Proteus,

I ordered my PCC today too (finally.) Will try with NPA for balance.

Great minds run in the same path!!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know you guys. It seems like men are messing with nature wearing female copulins. I doubt sex with women rubs on the much copulin on to men. If everyone starts wearing androgens and copulins, the human species may become confused sexually. =)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. They have brought me to my follow up question:

Are these \"misterious\" hits from women who KNOW you\'re with somebody at the given time (Yes/No)?

If yes then I would comment that it is human nature to want something you can\'t have. If no, then it would be women pheros sending the message that you\'re with somebody (except that in this case they don\'t know that conciously) and the same law applies (they want something they can\'t have; thus justifying using copulins).

How else can this phenomenon be described?

Curious (Pseudo-Intelligent) Dude???

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Could also just be that women flirt with hooked up guys because they\'re safe...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Truth.
I don\'t believe so,on one occasion when I was engaged,my finance\'s best friend was obviously interested in me.Every time we were out at a disco I got lots of attention from her.A year later after we had split up,I bumped into her,she had heard we had seperated and as soon as she saw me ,she made a bee line straight to me.She was all over me for the rest of the night .But me, I was a pig ,I was still recovering from being dumped and still angry at my ex and women in general.Needless to say I never saw this girl again,which was a shame as she was a lot nicer than my ex.But we live and learn by our mistakes.That was over 20 years ago and since then I have had 3 long term relationships,the longest lasting 11 years.
During these relationships I had used to get more attention from other women,but as soon as I was single again the attention disapeared,so I would fluctutate from feast to famine.
I am now single again after finishing with my ex of 2 years,and of course the attention from women has gone again. images/icons/frown.gif

PS, I left out that I could of had any of the women that paid me the attention ,as they had made it obvious that they were up for it ,so to speak.

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Taffy ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I will be ordering my PCC tomorrow! images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Why are you guys using PCC and not PI/w?

[Whitehall]

Read a posting by Wilde Oscar where he went crazy for the smell of PCC. It is only copulins while PI/w has mostly nol.

PCC allows one to mix it with NPA, TE, etc. and know you\'re not upsetting the blends.