Is this true at all?

[christinedavis]

Many authors have speculated that both androstenone and androstenol are male pheromones,

raising the questions of whether and how females perceive them. Filsinger, Braun and Monte

[62[/ur

l]] showed that the application of androstenone to females led to negative descriptions of males

whereas the application of androstenol led to a description of males as being sexually attractive. It has been

shown repeatedly that females either find the odor of androstenol to be attractive, or that the perception of this

odor results in heightened female sexual arousal

[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#63"]63[/ur

l]]. These results indicate that androstenol can induce positive, while androstenone induces negative

emotions towards males, and suggest that androstenol may be a male pheromone that enhances attractiveness.
Maiworm

[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#64"]64[/ur

l]] found that females perceive males positively under exposure to androstenol and negatively under

exposure to androstenone. The finding that females are emotionally more affected by androstenone and androstenol

than by control substances like rose water, led to the hypothesis that both androstenone and androstenol might be

male pheromones. The role of androstenol in any hypothetical signaling system is clear, since it seems to promote

female sexual attraction towards males. However, problems arise in attempts to determine the function of

androstenone, which induces negative female emotions towards males. Besides, androstenone is the more prominent

odor. Thus, the odor of androstenone will prevail, whereas the fresh sweat odor of androstenol disappears quickly.

The fact that the production of attractiveness-enhancing androstenol inevitably produces the repellent androstenone

makes it difficult to propose a definite advantage for the sender of such chemical signals compared to a non-sender.

Arguably, a pheromone function of both substances is unlikely. If a male repels females with androstenone, this

would contradict hypotheses, which assert male promiscuity on an evolutionary basis

[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#65"]65[/ur

l]]. A less odorous male could out reproduce a more odorous male, simply because he could approach

more females in less time and with less energy. This only holds if the costs of the more odorous androstenone

production are greater than the benefits reached through producing the more sexually attractive androstenol. As

androstenol oxidizes to androstenone the initial attractive signal becomes repellent. Because this effect takes

place within 20 minutes

[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#66"]66[/ur

l]], a less odorous male would be better off, since the repellent smell of androstenone is the

long-term prevailing signal. If androstenone is a signal for females, then what advantages do more odorous males

have?"


I found this article here:

[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm"]http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Revie

w.htm (http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#62)


From everyones posts so far it seems that androstenone does in fact attract the

opposite sex, however this document claims otherwhise - - and that only androstenol is the attractant. It also

claims that within 20 minutes androstenol oxadizes and becomes androstenone.



Comments?:think:

[Watcher]

androstenol breaks down into

androstenone yes but some of hte pheromone forumulas keep it active for several hours to a day - anol does require

more application and reapplication yes that isnt in dispute. The 20 minute timeframe is very very debateable ive had

the social giggle anol reaction up to 16 hos after applying some of the products depends on the carrier - perception

is an example.

Actually they neglect to include androstrone. Arone is the main sexual attractant read james V

Kohls materail.

[jvkohl]

I found

this article here:

I'm the first author of

the award-winning article. Truth is in the interpretation, but the article is fully referenced, just in case someone

ones to look at the full text of the studies cited.


From everyones posts so far it

seems that androstenone does in fact attract the opposite sex, however this document claims otherwhise - - and that

only androstenol is the attractant. It also claims that within 20 minutes androstenol oxadizes and becomes

androstenone.
Comments?
There are two approaches on this Forum that have been discussed. One that

agrees with the research; one that appears counterintuitive to the research. If androstenone works, that's great

for those who use it. Researchers are more likely to care whether or not it should work, which is why my products

don't contain it.

I'm glad to see that you are looking at the

research.

JVK
[url] (http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm)

[Pongo]

>>> Researchers are more likely to

care whether or not it should work


Can you speak a bit more on this?



Thanks a bunch, Pongo

[tim929]

Any good results I have had with

androstenone have always been kinda short lived.NO and RONE on the other hand tend to have a lasting impact.

[jvkohl]

>>> Researchers are

more likely to care whether or not it should work

Can you speak a bit more on this?





Not without offending someone (or getting into a discussion about a particular product; Athena;

Pherlure). I'm a researcher who doesn't agree with many of the marketing tactics I've seen. Show me some study

results that can be replicated, and I can tell you how likely it is that the study offers proof of a human

pheromone. No studies; no pheromone -- but that doesn't stop product

marketing.

JVK

[SwingerMD]

This is very interesting. Of

course one would have to look at the situations that androstenol and androstenone were presented. Definately not

quite real world conditions, but you do have to start somewhere.

It does explain why I got so few responses

when I went running around wearing just -none products/mixes. For me SOE has gotten me a lot of flirting, fun, etc

. . . . I have gotten some really blatent sexual hits, but those came after I had worn SOE for several (at least

4-5) hours. Some of my best sexual hits have come when wearing mixes that have a higher concentration of -nol to

-none.

I hypothesize that -nol is a very sexual, fun, social mone that tells other people that, "this

person is funny", "fun", "handsome", "attractive" . . . etc . . . . Over time a bit of this oxidizes to -none.

-None has always struck me as a mone that commands respect, fear, . . . (imagine the Darth Vader in Empire). It

tells other people "I should be afraid" "This person is bigger/stronger than you" and it screams "Fuck Me!".

Perhaps this is why people are replused by it if they were not exposed to -nol first.

-SwingerMD

[chicago]

i like soe

alot.
________
Uggs (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[tim929]

Well...like JVK said...no

research=no pheromone.
There are plenty of things that can trigger sexual responses in women...sights,sounds and

smells.Guys get horny when they look at pictures of naked models...does that make porn a pheromone? Im guessing here

but Im gonna say no.And most of us have had an experience or two that was less than pleasant regarding NONE.Some

guys can get realy good hits from it but most of us have to temper it with something else which tells me that its

probably okay to leave NONE out alltogether.

[SwingerMD]

Well...like JVK

said...no research=no pheromone.
There are plenty of things that can trigger sexual responses in

women...sights,sounds and smells.Guys get horny when they look at pictures of naked models...does that make porn a

pheromone? Im guessing here but Im gonna say no.And most of us have had an experience or two that was less than

pleasant regarding NONE.Some guys can get realy good hits from it but most of us have to temper it with something

else which tells me that its probably okay to leave NONE out alltogether.

I see your point, and I do

agree that it is probably ok to not to mess around with the high -none products and mixes. But -none does have

it's uses. It is a fact that -nol does slowly changes to -none over time. I believe that -None does have a role

to play in human attraction, but most likely in small doses. So perhaps having that -nol naturally convert might be

the best way to go.

Science (biochemistry) is a big factor in pheromone research. We can't forget that the

social science of attraction is all intertwined in this as well.

-SwingerMD

[Visionary7903]

There are

two approaches on this Forum that have been discussed. One that agrees with the research; one that appears

counterintuitive to the research. If androstenone works, that's great for those who use it. Researchers are more

likely to care whether or not it should work, which is why my products don't contain it.

I'm glad to see that

you are looking at the research.

JVK
(http:///)




JVK,

talking about research why hasn't Estradienol been put into one of your products yet? According to the

study below, "Under estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under

control":think: .

Visionary




Dr. Regina E. Maiworm (1998):
Influence of estradienol and

methoxyestateraene on the assessment of the opposite sex.

Abstract In a double blind study estradienol,

methoxyestateraene or the controls cholesterol or mineral oil were applied to the upper lip of 240 men and women.

Before the application a standardized test about the mood was administered. After the application five persons

(standardized whole-body photographs) of the opposite sex were rated on 19 bipolar, seven stepped ratingscales. Each

subject rated the five persons one by one. After the rating the test about the moood was conducted again. The

session was finished by a structured interview. Each subject was tested individually by a same sex experimenter.

Physiological parameters (respiration, heart rate, skin conductance) were measured during each session. Under

estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under control. Under the

influence of methoxyestateraene the women were rated by men as better, kinder and they were much more liked than

under control.

[Watcher]

I can say athenas product maybe

have something useful cutler on the other hand as the public media face of pheromones is totally useless with their

products. Just my opinions as a end user never will buy em again

[jvkohl]

I believe that -None does have a role to play in human

attraction, but most likely in small doses. So perhaps having that -nol naturally convert might be the best way to

go.

Recent research says that -none may not be okay, even in small doses. However, since the research

was done in Japan (supposedly), this means that societal norms and racial differences in odor production may be

factors.

International Journal of Cosmetic Science
Volume 27 Page 333 - December

2005
doi:10.1111/j.1467-2494.2005.00293.x
Volume 27 Issue 6

Sexual differentiation in sensitivity to

male body odor1
Y. Tokunaga*, Y. Omoto*, T. Sangu*, M. Miyazakiâ€, R. Kon* and K. Takada*
Synopsis

We

have confirmed that more female subjects than male subjects evaluate male body odor as significantly unpleasant.

Through an investigation on sexual differentiation in sensitivity to male body odor, we concluded that one of the

volatile steroids, androstenone, had two effects on female olfactory sense. First, female subjects perceived

androstenone itself to be more unpleasant than male subjects. Second, for only female subjects, androstenone, at a

concentration of one-tenth of detection threshold, enhanced the intensity and unpleasantness of body-odor

constituents such as short-chain fatty acids.


Science (biochemistry) is a big factor in

pheromone research. We can't forget that the social science of attraction is all intertwined in this as

well.

Even social scientists should begin to notice that whatever they think is "intertwined," they

are still dealing with primary issues of biochemistry, which in this case involve racial differences.



JVK

[jvkohl]

Note that the abstract is from a

1998 presentation.

Twentieth Annual Meeting of the Association for Chemoreception Sciences Chem. Senses 1998

23: 545-646

The research was not published so far as I am aware.

Marketing folks would probably not

care whether the findings stood up to peer review; most researchers care about this sort of thing. I'm not likely

to take everything that anyone thinks is a pheromone and include it is a product -- just in case it is a pheromone.

It's better to make reasonable decisions in this regard, since you risk losing credibility. Winnifred Cutler is an

example of a researcher who's lost

credibility.

JVK



JVK,
talking about research

why hasn't Estradienol been put into one of your products yet? According to the study below, "Under estradienol the

men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under control":think: .

Visionary



Dr. Regina E. Maiworm (1998):
Influence of estradienol and methoxyestateraene on the assessment of the

opposite sex.

Abstract In a double blind study estradienol, methoxyestateraene or the controls cholesterol

or mineral oil were applied to the upper lip of 240 men and women. Before the application a standardized test about

the mood was administered. After the application five persons (standardized whole-body photographs) of the opposite

sex were rated on 19 bipolar, seven stepped ratingscales. Each subject rated the five persons one by one. After the

rating the test about the moood was conducted again. The session was finished by a structured interview. Each

subject was tested individually by a same sex experimenter. Physiological parameters (respiration, heart rate, skin

conductance) were measured during each session. Under estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and

more nonchalant than under control. Under the influence of methoxyestateraene the women were rated by men as better,

kinder and they were much more liked than under control.

[jvkohl]

The research was not published so far as I am aware.

Now, let's look at research

that was published, in the same year.
----------------------
Dr. E. Maiworm and W.U. Langthaler (1998):

Communication by odour - The influence of Body odour on the attractiveness of men. In: Frosch, P.J., Johanse, J.D. &

White, I.R. (eds): Fragrances - Beneficial and adverse Effects. Berlin, heidelberg, New York: Springer.



Discussion

Experiment 1 clearly shows the effect of androsterone on the perception of men. The men

received more positive ratings on a variety of scales.
----------------------

Not to labor too long on a

point, but I've been trying to get this through to some people for a long time. The bottom line is that if the

product has no research to back it up, you may still get results -- but the results would be more likely due to the

power of suggestion. If the product is backed by research and you get results, there's more than the power of

suggestion involved; it's called science.

JVK

[Gegogi]

Of course, a major percentage of

the Earth's populaton is Asian, so the conclusion of Japanese research that 'none is unpleasant and repelling for

women is far reaching. Being Asian and mainly living among Asians I've oft heard women comment how unpleasantly

stinky other races were. The typical reaction is they felt like running it was so strong.

We discussed in

another thread a deodorant being developed in Japan to specifically target 'none. Apparently an extract from peach

pits neutralizes its repelling effect.

http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15339

[Watcher]

well it has also been noted at

least around here that women react more favourable to none when that tiem of the month comes aroudn and react

negative to it when they arent on heat so to speak = perhaps that is where they didnt consider factors though the

asian angle i will also agree with white and african women react more favouable to none in my experience if i want

an asian lady to respond then SOE is a better product in general though there are always differences of reaction

[Gegogi]

JV might be pleased to know that

SOE is my all around fav. I just ordered 2 dad burn bottles! If I could only have one product, SOE would be it. I

just wish it was in an alcohol carrier for better mixing with colognes.

Too many folks try to pigeonhole SOE

as a social-only 'mone. It certainly helps me get laid and has enhanced both my social and professional life.

Nevertheless, gettin' Asian women befuddled and twitchy with 'none can be extremely entertaining. Especially when

they bolt for the door (they usually come back another day). I try to have fun and not take love, romance and mating

too seriously.

[catlord17]

Speaking of being "in heat", I

presume that means 'none works best just after a woman's had her period? Isn't that when she's most fertile?

Or was it just before? I don't remember offhand. And has anyone noticed an increase inthe effectiveness of any

other pheromone when a woman is "in heat"? Or would anything seem to have that effect simply because she's

fertile?

[jvkohl]

well it has also

been noted at least around here that women react more favourable to none when that tiem of the month comes aroudn

and react negative to it when they arent on heat so to speak...

Research indicates that cyclic

changes merely make -none less unpleasant (i.e., not more favorable, since they never favor the smell) when women

are in their fertile phase of the menstrual cycle.

The negative rating of androstenone changes to a neutral

response at the conceptive optimum around ovulation, which may facilitate female mate choice.



see:
Grammer, K. (1993) 5 a androst 16en 3a on: A male pheromone? a brief report. Ethology and

Sociobiology, 14, 201-208.

JVK

[tounge]

JV might be pleased

to know that SOE is my all around fav. I just ordered 2 dad burn bottles! If I could only have one product, SOE

would be it. I just wish it was in an alcohol carrier for better mixing with colognes.

Too many folks try to

pigeonhole SOE as a social-only 'mone. It certainly helps me get laid and has enhanced both my social and

professional life. Nevertheless, gettin' Asian women befuddled and twitchy with 'none can be extremely

entertaining. Especially when they bolt for the door (they usually come back another day). I try to have fun and not

take love, romance and mating too seriously.



Are you using the scented or non of SOE?

[Gegogi]

I prefer unscented as I cycle

through various colognes for cover.

[Rbt]

I'm beginning to form an opinion

that -none is "overrated" and overused. Just personal feelings, and a bit of opinion formed by the negative

reactions I've gotten when wearing even minute amounts of PI or NPA (usually along with some other product though).

I think I've been able to negate the negative affects of -npne (PI) when I used it in a test with a314, but I

don't think the PI did any good either, so why use it?

I am starting to lean more and more toward -rone for

the "masculine" aspects and -nol and A-1 for the friendly/comfortable/relaxed effects. Both Chikara and AE have done

some good for me, so -none in combo with the ther ingredients may be okay, but I still wonder if the -none is really

contributing to the effects I'm seeing, and I'd do just as well with SOE (-nol/-rone), a314 (-rone like), a and b

-nol, and a bit of A-1 (or a "work alike") for mixes.

I'm about 55 y/o and my age I'm supposedly not turning

out much natural -none at all already.

[belgareth]

It depends on the user. I

can't wear much none either so for me what you say is true. Then there's Gegogi who can bath in the stuff and

get's tons of attention from it.