View Full Version : Is this true at all?
christinedavis
01-20-2006, 10:37 AM
Many authors have speculated that both androstenone and androstenol are male pheromones,
raising the questions of whether and how females perceive them. Filsinger, Braun and Monte
[62[/ur
l]] showed that the application of androstenone to females led to negative descriptions of males
whereas the application of androstenol led to a description of males as being sexually attractive. It has been
shown repeatedly that females either find the odor of androstenol to be attractive, or that the perception of this
odor results in heightened female sexual arousal
[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#63"]63[/ur
l]]. These results indicate that androstenol can induce positive, while androstenone induces negative
emotions towards males, and suggest that androstenol may be a male pheromone that enhances attractiveness.
Maiworm
[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#64"]64[/ur
l]] found that females perceive males positively under exposure to androstenol and negatively under
exposure to androstenone. The finding that females are emotionally more affected by androstenone and androstenol
than by control substances like rose water, led to the hypothesis that both androstenone and androstenol might be
male pheromones. The role of androstenol in any hypothetical signaling system is clear, since it seems to promote
female sexual attraction towards males. However, problems arise in attempts to determine the function of
androstenone, which induces negative female emotions towards males. Besides, androstenone is the more prominent
odor. Thus, the odor of androstenone will prevail, whereas the fresh sweat odor of androstenol disappears quickly.
The fact that the production of attractiveness-enhancing androstenol inevitably produces the repellent androstenone
makes it difficult to propose a definite advantage for the sender of such chemical signals compared to a non-sender.
Arguably, a pheromone function of both substances is unlikely. If a male repels females with androstenone, this
would contradict hypotheses, which assert male promiscuity on an evolutionary basis
[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#65"]65[/ur
l]]. A less odorous male could out reproduce a more odorous male, simply because he could approach
more females in less time and with less energy. This only holds if the costs of the more odorous androstenone
production are greater than the benefits reached through producing the more sexually attractive androstenol. As
androstenol oxidizes to androstenone the initial attractive signal becomes repellent. Because this effect takes
place within 20 minutes
[[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#66"]66[/ur
l]], a less odorous male would be better off, since the repellent smell of androstenone is the
long-term prevailing signal. If androstenone is a signal for females, then what advantages do more odorous males
have?"
I found this article here:
[url="http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm"]http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Revie
w.htm (http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm#62)
From everyones posts so far it seems that androstenone does in fact attract the
opposite sex, however this document claims otherwhise - - and that only androstenol is the attractant. It also
claims that within 20 minutes androstenol oxadizes and becomes androstenone.
Comments?:think:
Watcher
01-20-2006, 01:34 PM
androstenol breaks down into
androstenone yes but some of hte pheromone forumulas keep it active for several hours to a day - anol does require
more application and reapplication yes that isnt in dispute. The 20 minute timeframe is very very debateable ive had
the social giggle anol reaction up to 16 hos after applying some of the products depends on the carrier - perception
is an example.
Actually they neglect to include androstrone. Arone is the main sexual attractant read james V
Kohls materail.
jvkohl
01-20-2006, 01:40 PM
I found
this article here:
I'm the first author of
the award-winning article. Truth is in the interpretation, but the article is fully referenced, just in case someone
ones to look at the full text of the studies cited.
From everyones posts so far it
seems that androstenone does in fact attract the opposite sex, however this document claims otherwhise - - and that
only androstenol is the attractant. It also claims that within 20 minutes androstenol oxadizes and becomes
androstenone.
Comments?
There are two approaches on this Forum that have been discussed. One that
agrees with the research; one that appears counterintuitive to the research. If androstenone works, that's great
for those who use it. Researchers are more likely to care whether or not it should work, which is why my products
don't contain it.
I'm glad to see that you are looking at the
research.
JVK
[url] (http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm)
Pongo
01-20-2006, 03:20 PM
>>> Researchers are more likely to
care whether or not it should work
Can you speak a bit more on this?
Thanks a bunch, Pongo
tim929
01-20-2006, 05:50 PM
Any good results I have had with
androstenone have always been kinda short lived.NO and RONE on the other hand tend to have a lasting impact.
jvkohl
01-20-2006, 08:14 PM
>>> Researchers are
more likely to care whether or not it should work
Can you speak a bit more on this?
Not without offending someone (or getting into a discussion about a particular product; Athena;
Pherlure). I'm a researcher who doesn't agree with many of the marketing tactics I've seen. Show me some study
results that can be replicated, and I can tell you how likely it is that the study offers proof of a human
pheromone. No studies; no pheromone -- but that doesn't stop product
marketing.
JVK
SwingerMD
01-20-2006, 08:35 PM
This is very interesting. Of
course one would have to look at the situations that androstenol and androstenone were presented. Definately not
quite real world conditions, but you do have to start somewhere.
It does explain why I got so few responses
when I went running around wearing just -none products/mixes. For me SOE has gotten me a lot of flirting, fun, etc
. . . . I have gotten some really blatent sexual hits, but those came after I had worn SOE for several (at least
4-5) hours. Some of my best sexual hits have come when wearing mixes that have a higher concentration of -nol to
-none.
I hypothesize that -nol is a very sexual, fun, social mone that tells other people that, "this
person is funny", "fun", "handsome", "attractive" . . . etc . . . . Over time a bit of this oxidizes to -none.
-None has always struck me as a mone that commands respect, fear, . . . (imagine the Darth Vader in Empire). It
tells other people "I should be afraid" "This person is bigger/stronger than you" and it screams "Fuck Me!".
Perhaps this is why people are replused by it if they were not exposed to -nol first.
-SwingerMD
chicago
01-20-2006, 10:15 PM
i like soe
alot.
________
Uggs (http://uggstoreshop.com/)
tim929
01-20-2006, 11:24 PM
Well...like JVK said...no
research=no pheromone.
There are plenty of things that can trigger sexual responses in women...sights,sounds and
smells.Guys get horny when they look at pictures of naked models...does that make porn a pheromone? Im guessing here
but Im gonna say no.And most of us have had an experience or two that was less than pleasant regarding NONE.Some
guys can get realy good hits from it but most of us have to temper it with something else which tells me that its
probably okay to leave NONE out alltogether.
SwingerMD
01-20-2006, 11:50 PM
Well...like JVK
said...no research=no pheromone.
There are plenty of things that can trigger sexual responses in
women...sights,sounds and smells.Guys get horny when they look at pictures of naked models...does that make porn a
pheromone? Im guessing here but Im gonna say no.And most of us have had an experience or two that was less than
pleasant regarding NONE.Some guys can get realy good hits from it but most of us have to temper it with something
else which tells me that its probably okay to leave NONE out alltogether.
I see your point, and I do
agree that it is probably ok to not to mess around with the high -none products and mixes. But -none does have
it's uses. It is a fact that -nol does slowly changes to -none over time. I believe that -None does have a role
to play in human attraction, but most likely in small doses. So perhaps having that -nol naturally convert might be
the best way to go.
Science (biochemistry) is a big factor in pheromone research. We can't forget that the
social science of attraction is all intertwined in this as well.
-SwingerMD
Visionary7903
01-21-2006, 12:41 AM
There are
two approaches on this Forum that have been discussed. One that agrees with the research; one that appears
counterintuitive to the research. If androstenone works, that's great for those who use it. Researchers are more
likely to care whether or not it should work, which is why my products don't contain it.
I'm glad to see that
you are looking at the research.
JVK
(http:///)
JVK,
talking about research why hasn't Estradienol been put into one of your products yet? According to the
study below, "Under estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under
control":think: .
Visionary
Dr. Regina E. Maiworm (1998):
Influence of estradienol and
methoxyestateraene on the assessment of the opposite sex.
Abstract In a double blind study estradienol,
methoxyestateraene or the controls cholesterol or mineral oil were applied to the upper lip of 240 men and women.
Before the application a standardized test about the mood was administered. After the application five persons
(standardized whole-body photographs) of the opposite sex were rated on 19 bipolar, seven stepped ratingscales. Each
subject rated the five persons one by one. After the rating the test about the moood was conducted again. The
session was finished by a structured interview. Each subject was tested individually by a same sex experimenter.
Physiological parameters (respiration, heart rate, skin conductance) were measured during each session. Under
estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under control. Under the
influence of methoxyestateraene the women were rated by men as better, kinder and they were much more liked than
under control.
Watcher
01-21-2006, 02:37 AM
I can say athenas product maybe
have something useful cutler on the other hand as the public media face of pheromones is totally useless with their
products. Just my opinions as a end user never will buy em again
jvkohl
01-21-2006, 09:30 AM
I believe that -None does have a role to play in human
attraction, but most likely in small doses. So perhaps having that -nol naturally convert might be the best way to
go.
Recent research says that -none may not be okay, even in small doses. However, since the research
was done in Japan (supposedly), this means that societal norms and racial differences in odor production may be
factors.
International Journal of Cosmetic Science
Volume 27 Page 333 - December
2005
doi:10.1111/j.1467-2494.2005.00293.x
Volume 27 Issue 6
Sexual differentiation in sensitivity to
male body odor1
Y. Tokunaga*, Y. Omoto*, T. Sangu*, M. Miyazakiâ€, R. Kon* and K. Takada*
Synopsis
We
have confirmed that more female subjects than male subjects evaluate male body odor as significantly unpleasant.
Through an investigation on sexual differentiation in sensitivity to male body odor, we concluded that one of the
volatile steroids, androstenone, had two effects on female olfactory sense. First, female subjects perceived
androstenone itself to be more unpleasant than male subjects. Second, for only female subjects, androstenone, at a
concentration of one-tenth of detection threshold, enhanced the intensity and unpleasantness of body-odor
constituents such as short-chain fatty acids.
Science (biochemistry) is a big factor in
pheromone research. We can't forget that the social science of attraction is all intertwined in this as
well.
Even social scientists should begin to notice that whatever they think is "intertwined," they
are still dealing with primary issues of biochemistry, which in this case involve racial differences.
JVK
jvkohl
01-21-2006, 09:45 AM
Note that the abstract is from a
1998 presentation.
Twentieth Annual Meeting of the Association for Chemoreception Sciences Chem. Senses 1998
23: 545-646
The research was not published so far as I am aware.
Marketing folks would probably not
care whether the findings stood up to peer review; most researchers care about this sort of thing. I'm not likely
to take everything that anyone thinks is a pheromone and include it is a product -- just in case it is a pheromone.
It's better to make reasonable decisions in this regard, since you risk losing credibility. Winnifred Cutler is an
example of a researcher who's lost
credibility.
JVK
JVK,
talking about research
why hasn't Estradienol been put into one of your products yet? According to the study below, "Under estradienol the
men were rated by women as better, harder and more nonchalant than under control":think: .
Visionary
Dr. Regina E. Maiworm (1998):
Influence of estradienol and methoxyestateraene on the assessment of the
opposite sex.
Abstract In a double blind study estradienol, methoxyestateraene or the controls cholesterol
or mineral oil were applied to the upper lip of 240 men and women. Before the application a standardized test about
the mood was administered. After the application five persons (standardized whole-body photographs) of the opposite
sex were rated on 19 bipolar, seven stepped ratingscales. Each subject rated the five persons one by one. After the
rating the test about the moood was conducted again. The session was finished by a structured interview. Each
subject was tested individually by a same sex experimenter. Physiological parameters (respiration, heart rate, skin
conductance) were measured during each session. Under estradienol the men were rated by women as better, harder and
more nonchalant than under control. Under the influence of methoxyestateraene the women were rated by men as better,
kinder and they were much more liked than under control.
jvkohl
01-21-2006, 09:58 AM
The research was not published so far as I am aware.
Now, let's look at research
that was published, in the same year.
----------------------
Dr. E. Maiworm and W.U. Langthaler (1998):
Communication by odour - The influence of Body odour on the attractiveness of men. In: Frosch, P.J., Johanse, J.D. &
White, I.R. (eds): Fragrances - Beneficial and adverse Effects. Berlin, heidelberg, New York: Springer.
Discussion
Experiment 1 clearly shows the effect of androsterone on the perception of men. The men
received more positive ratings on a variety of scales.
----------------------
Not to labor too long on a
point, but I've been trying to get this through to some people for a long time. The bottom line is that if the
product has no research to back it up, you may still get results -- but the results would be more likely due to the
power of suggestion. If the product is backed by research and you get results, there's more than the power of
suggestion involved; it's called science.
JVK
Gegogi
01-21-2006, 11:17 AM
Of course, a major percentage of
the Earth's populaton is Asian, so the conclusion of Japanese research that 'none is unpleasant and repelling for
women is far reaching. Being Asian and mainly living among Asians I've oft heard women comment how unpleasantly
stinky other races were. The typical reaction is they felt like running it was so strong.
We discussed in
another thread a deodorant being developed in Japan to specifically target 'none. Apparently an extract from peach
pits neutralizes its repelling effect.
http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15339
Watcher
01-22-2006, 01:16 AM
well it has also been noted at
least around here that women react more favourable to none when that tiem of the month comes aroudn and react
negative to it when they arent on heat so to speak = perhaps that is where they didnt consider factors though the
asian angle i will also agree with white and african women react more favouable to none in my experience if i want
an asian lady to respond then SOE is a better product in general though there are always differences of reaction
Gegogi
01-22-2006, 01:28 AM
JV might be pleased to know that
SOE is my all around fav. I just ordered 2 dad burn bottles! If I could only have one product, SOE would be it. I
just wish it was in an alcohol carrier for better mixing with colognes.
Too many folks try to pigeonhole SOE
as a social-only 'mone. It certainly helps me get laid and has enhanced both my social and professional life.
Nevertheless, gettin' Asian women befuddled and twitchy with 'none can be extremely entertaining. Especially when
they bolt for the door (they usually come back another day). I try to have fun and not take love, romance and mating
too seriously.
catlord17
01-22-2006, 01:30 AM
Speaking of being "in heat", I
presume that means 'none works best just after a woman's had her period? Isn't that when she's most fertile?
Or was it just before? I don't remember offhand. And has anyone noticed an increase inthe effectiveness of any
other pheromone when a woman is "in heat"? Or would anything seem to have that effect simply because she's
fertile?
jvkohl
01-22-2006, 09:49 AM
well it has also
been noted at least around here that women react more favourable to none when that tiem of the month comes aroudn
and react negative to it when they arent on heat so to speak...
Research indicates that cyclic
changes merely make -none less unpleasant (i.e., not more favorable, since they never favor the smell) when women
are in their fertile phase of the menstrual cycle.
The negative rating of androstenone changes to a neutral
response at the conceptive optimum around ovulation, which may facilitate female mate choice.
see:
Grammer, K. (1993) 5 a androst 16en 3a on: A male pheromone? a brief report. Ethology and
Sociobiology, 14, 201-208.
JVK
tounge
01-22-2006, 11:33 AM
JV might be pleased
to know that SOE is my all around fav. I just ordered 2 dad burn bottles! If I could only have one product, SOE
would be it. I just wish it was in an alcohol carrier for better mixing with colognes.
Too many folks try to
pigeonhole SOE as a social-only 'mone. It certainly helps me get laid and has enhanced both my social and
professional life. Nevertheless, gettin' Asian women befuddled and twitchy with 'none can be extremely
entertaining. Especially when they bolt for the door (they usually come back another day). I try to have fun and not
take love, romance and mating too seriously.
Are you using the scented or non of SOE?
Gegogi
01-22-2006, 11:54 AM
I prefer unscented as I cycle
through various colognes for cover.
I'm beginning to form an opinion
that -none is "overrated" and overused. Just personal feelings, and a bit of opinion formed by the negative
reactions I've gotten when wearing even minute amounts of PI or NPA (usually along with some other product though).
I think I've been able to negate the negative affects of -npne (PI) when I used it in a test with a314, but I
don't think the PI did any good either, so why use it?
I am starting to lean more and more toward -rone for
the "masculine" aspects and -nol and A-1 for the friendly/comfortable/relaxed effects. Both Chikara and AE have done
some good for me, so -none in combo with the ther ingredients may be okay, but I still wonder if the -none is really
contributing to the effects I'm seeing, and I'd do just as well with SOE (-nol/-rone), a314 (-rone like), a and b
-nol, and a bit of A-1 (or a "work alike") for mixes.
I'm about 55 y/o and my age I'm supposedly not turning
out much natural -none at all already.
belgareth
01-28-2006, 05:12 AM
It depends on the user. I
can't wear much none either so for me what you say is true. Then there's Gegogi who can bath in the stuff and
get's tons of attention from it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.