More body Language Signs That A Lady Is Interested? [Archive]

Friendly1

01-12-2006, 09:51 PM

Yawning can be a sign of stress

rather than boredom. I used to hang on every word in those lists of body language signs, but I've found that most

of them are too shallow and repetitive. They emphasize the most popular points and don't really offer a

well-rounded explanation of how to interpret the signals.

Let me give you an example from my own recent

experience. I was sitting with a girl who stayed way back from me, crossed her legs, and held her hands in her lap.

She barely made eye contact. All throughout that conversation I kept thinking, "I've lost her. There is no interest

here."

The same girl nonetheless came toward me every time I moved away from her. If I got up and walked away

she would follow me.

So, why the closed body language when we were sitting down? Because she was focusing on

controlling herself. She was holding back, containing her interest and excitement. But the fact that she kept moving

to be near me revealed that she really wanted to be close to me.

A single contradictory signal doesn't tell you

anything. If it is repeated, then it tells you that the person is in conflct, trying to conceal true feelings but

lapsing when the connection seems to be breaking.

Another example, same girl (different situation). I ended a

conversation when I thought she had lost interest in further discussion. But I asked her to walk with me. I have

taken to the habit of putting my hands behind my back to keep from putting them in my pockets. This is normally

interpreted as a very confident, often arrogant gesture. I am very conscious when I do this that I may be projecting

an air of self-importance to people around me, so I try not to maintain that posture for long.

The girl

immediately put her hands behind her back as we walked along. She was unconsciously mirroring my body language,

revealing that she was feeling or wanting to build rapport with me.

Another example involving my boss, a very

experienced salesperson who reads body language. We were talking with a prospect after making a proposal to him. I

felt confident we were close to a deal. I was doing my best to build rapport with him and stay open in my body

language. But my boss kept rocking back and forth on his heels (we were all standing). I thought, "That looks like

he wants to get out of this discussion."

When we left, my boss revealed that he felt the guy liked us and our

proposal, but we had not clinched the deal. As it turned out, we lost the contract. My boss' instincts had revealed

themselves to me through his rocking motion, even though everything else he had done (laughing, smiling, making

great eye contact, building rapport through conversation) indicated he was warm and confident in our proposal.

Another example involves a waitress at a restaurant tonight. I was flirting with her out of habit (my girl was not

there). The waitress is cute so you know guys are always flirting with her. So she didn't make much eye contact

with me, didn't smile much, spent more time talking to other people, etc. She gave me no signs of interest.

Nonetheless, at one point I said, "What's your name, so we don't keep saying 'Hey, you'?" She told me her

name.

The next time she came over to our table, I made a point of asking her something by first using her name.

She immediately stopped what she was doing, looked at me in surprise, and smiled. She quickly caught herself and

went back to what she was doing. Nonetheless, I now knew she was interested but had been trying not to show any

interest.

You have to look beyond the standard signs. Test and probe the other person's body language, see if

it holds true when you change something in the situation, or see if there are contrary indicators (such as what the

person does with their feet) that consistently oppose what other body signals do.

We are most effective at

controlling our facial expressions. We are least effective at controlling our feet. We almost never control our

surprise.

I have been working on keeping my feet resting solidly on the floor whenever I sit. I have been trying

to feel comfortable when I don't put my hands behind my back. I have been trying to remember to show people my

palms in an upward position.

I find these things are easier to do when I can sincerely feel the way these body

signals indicate I am feeling, so I have found that I need to watch my moods and my comfort level and make

adjustments.

I am learning to read my own body language, and in doing so I have begun seeing things in other

people's body language I didn't see before.

Gegogi

01-12-2006, 11:56 PM

I think Friendly has made many

extremely insightful points. Women often control themselves and mask their feelings, so a few "body signs" may not

mean anything at all. In fact, their words, actions and body language are often in conflict, so you must look beyond

a few signs to understand what's going on. I've met a number of women that try hard to appear disinterested, even

hostile when they're attracted to me. However, they're always something eventually that gives them away.

platinumfox

01-13-2006, 05:26 AM

Friendly hit a grand slam and

is exactly right.Sometimes a woman will smile while others will do the "hidden smile" thing.Squirming in the

seat(fidgeting) is another some women just get nervous when they are turned on.As Friendly mentioned some women wont

look you in the eye if they are attracted to you because they dont want to be caught staring while others will just

stare.

ohmmmm

01-13-2006, 08:22 AM

I agree with Platinumfox.

Currently, there is a woman whom I was friendly with in a yoga class as we shared some of the same strong interest

in it...beyond most of the the other students. All of a sudden she is not standing near me any more in class and not

initiating any conversations except polite formal type talk. However, I see her sneaking glances at me and trying

not to make eye contact. Now, I've never done anything to suggest sexual interest but I get the sixth sense

somehting is going on with her. To make sense of all this is that she is married with two kids. I'm fond of her

but I'm not going after her and haven't made any advances. So this is just an example of strange behaviour that

may indicate interest without the person showing the normal signs. Somtimes we will never know what is going on, but

being aware of people, cirmcustances and subtle clues may help us or at least make life more interesting.

Cullmanz Own

01-14-2006, 02:04 PM

One very noticable sign of

interest is when she crosses her legs. Not only does this signal sexual feelings but a women will usually point her

legs tward you as a sign of interest.

Gegogi

01-14-2006, 03:30 PM

And if she is really interested

in you, she will open her legs...

Friendly1

01-16-2006, 06:56 PM

Simply crossing her legs is not

enough. Her knees or feet must be pointed towards you. But if she opens and closes her legs, recrossing them, she

may be showing you the goods. She may also be uncomfortable and have to get up.

It's always best to test your

instincts by giving her an opportunity to show a second or third sign of interest by moving to another position.

She'll let you know soon enough if she is following you with her eyes or her body.

Friendly1

01-17-2006, 10:47 PM

You can miss a lot of

interesting opportunities, though, if you don't look for the more subtle signs.

I was at a dance class last

night where a girl, probably about 20, was showing me the goods. I couldn't be sure at first so I moved around.

Every time she stopped to listen to the teacher, she would point one foot at me. She made sure I could see her

pulling her hair back and stroking her fingers through her hair. But the most intriguing sign was that every time

she danced in front of me, she somehow made sure she leaned toward her partner enough so that I could see her

cleavage.

I was standing off to the side. I didn't participate in the class. No matter where I stood, this

girl went to stand between me and the teacher, so that I could take as long an lingering a look as I desired.

She doesn't know I'm seeing someone. So she is definitely doing a come on. Now. Why? I don't know. Maybe

she just likes to play games with older men. She told me last week she was going back to school up in the northeast

somewhere.

I was wearing The Edge, Natural Attraction, and a cover scent. Maybe some APC, too. Hadn't

refreshed since the morning, though.

The girl spent a lot of time looking in the mirror. Every time I gave in

to temptation and scanned her profile, I caught her looking at my reflection. It got to the point where I felt like

I was just egging her on (to egg me on). I finally walked out of the class after 30 minutes. The teacher wanted me

to stay, but I said I was being a distraction to the guys who kept inviting me to join the rotation.

I think the

main reason this girl was flirting with me, the pheromones aside, is that nearly all the other men in the class are

older than me. One guy is about 2-3 years younger than me and he doesn't dress like anything special (he even

wears white socks with black loafers). I usually come into these classes from work, so I'm wearing nice slacks and

a tie with my dress shoes on.

So, she was sort of in a desert, and I was the closest thing to an oasis for

her.

So Confused

01-21-2006, 04:42 PM

Any and all

responses in regards to this post are welcome, but I'd be especially grateful to get Friendly1's insights. Sorry

it's so long, but I want to be thorough so I can get the best feedback.

In continuing with questions of body

language signals, I figured it'd be best to insert this here, rather than starting a whole new thread. First off,

here's my situation: I am a pretty big guy (6'0, 248 lb. bodybuilder with 20 1/4 inch arms and a 34 inch waist-

yes, natural). Due to this, whenever I tend to get into a new crowd, I'm perceived to be as more an alpha male for

sure. But anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm one of the most shy and unassertive guys you'll ever meet.

I've never even approached a gal up until recently, as all through my school years the gals would come after me....

and I still do more than alright to this regard today. However, there are very few gals who I develop interest in

(this current gal is the first one I've liked in over a YEAR!!!), and act very differently around the ones that I

DO like (get nervous, tongue-tied, get caught looking and turn away in embarrassment, seem (and am in fact) very

unconfident....) I know that I have to change all of this, and am working on it, but my upcoming question centers

around how to interpret my current situation with a certain gal.
From the moment I first met this gal just over

two months ago I felt that something special (more than a physical attraction). I am a personal trainer, and she

goes to the gym I work out of, so I get to see her @4 days a week. After a few days of friendly chatter (come to

find out her mother was my teacher for 6 years, and I was her favorite student... so much so that she sent me away

to college with a present lol) I got up the nerve to start talking with her more openly. Over time we started

emailing every few days, and we'd still chat for about 20 minutes or so a few times a week in the gym. This gal

writes articles for dating mags, so she's constantly reading up on "the game" that the dating scene has become. In

the latest one, she writes about how to avoid wasting time dating; and part of it basically concludes that gals

should stop wasting their time with the bad boy types. To me, this was a VERY good sign, as in talking with her she

knows that I'm certainly a relationship-only guy. But yet every guy she's mentioned dating when it comes up in our

conversations is just that... one of the bad boys who gals in the teen-mid 20s range try to "tame."

Anyways,

I've asked her to casually hang out three different times now, two of which were absolutely last minute and she'd

already had plans. The third time she also had a legitimate excuse, as though I asked five days or so in advance she

had plans to go to her alma mater for alumni weekend. So I couldn't really tell based on these situations if she

was really interested. Now in terms of everything I observed in our time spent together at the gym, I was nearly

certain that there was a lot of interest on her part too. From about 4 days or so after I first met her up as

recently as this past Thrusday, I will catch her staring at me both directly and through the many mirrors in the

facility; a good dozen times a day at least. And she, of course, catches me just as frequently. I cuaght her in a

slip-up one day where she came into the gym and let it slip that she'd been talking with her mother about me (got

all flustered and had to look down). She'd actually even gotten to the point where she'd move herself into an

accessible area when she'd see me come into the gym (this gal is a BIG believer in the male having to be the

aggressor). She also took an angle I was using to the next level and suggested that we start training together (I

had "jokingly" brought it up that she could be my relationship counselor and I'd be her trainer). The two times we

"worked" together took up a combined 6 HOURS, most of which was spent flirting (TONS of laughter, lots of positive

compliments to one another, some touching... and her eye contact was RIDICULOUS!!!) I had to keep reminding her

after 1/2 hour or so of just chatting that we had to keep moving!

So you'd think she was into me too, right?

Well, THIS is where my question comes in. I got an email from her in response to one I sent her, and it didn't go

so well. I "disguised" it as my going to her for her "relationship therapist" advice, but really just described our

situation to her without putting her name in there, and asked her how I should take it all. She wrote back saying

that if I'd wanted to hang out with her I should have asked for her phone number instead of being so evasive, that

I'd basically stumbled into the "friend" ladder and that she wasn't romantically interested. I got the dreaded

"you're such a nice guy," she sincerely wants to be my friend, and keep training with me. I, of course, have

avoided her for the past week since this happened lol. So.....
1) How in the world could I have gotten all of those

seemingly obvious signals from her and yet she's not interested? Is she playing hard to get, or is that just a

pretty polite way of telling me to give up?

2) Like I said, I don't tend to like many gals. I get to know them

in a social setting before I'll ever consider dating them. I have never felt so much of a connection with a gal

before, and don't want to give up on this one. That's why I'm here. I want to buy a product that'll help me,

along with forcing myself to not be so shy, to get her romantically interested. I spent about 10 hours over the past

few days reading through parts of this forum, and from what I've gathered, the Chikara/NPA combo seems to work

wonders. But I have to watch out and make sure I get something that compliments what I naturally put out there. In

terms of what I'd wear out with people who don't know me I'd think I shouldn't wear the -none containing

products, which could make me more intimidating. BUT I don't care about that. I'm literally only buying this with

the intention of getting this girl to see me as more than a friend. She already knows me to be a really shy, moral

and kind person, but she seems to still be into the bad boy types (going completely against what her article

advises). So does this mean I SHOULD buy a -none containing product so she'll think I'm more macho? Plus, there

was a new thread on here this morning about studies showing that -nol and not -none had the most positive effects on

gals. What should I try? If at all possible, I'd like to go with a standalone first, as I've never used this stuff

and would be afraid I'd mess up in mixing a bunch of things when just getting started. So far I'm thinking maybe

Chikara by itself?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and any and all feedback is GREATLY

appreciated.

platinumfox

01-22-2006, 06:59 AM

Any and all responses in regards to this post are welcome, but I'd be especially grateful to get

Friendly1's insights. Sorry it's so long, but I want to be thorough so I can get the best feedback.

In

continuing with questions of body language signals, I figured it'd be best to insert this here, rather than

starting a whole new thread. First off, here's my situation: I am a pretty big guy (6'0, 248 lb. bodybuilder with

20 1/4 inch arms and a 34 inch waist- yes, natural). Due to this, whenever I tend to get into a new crowd, I'm

perceived to be as more an alpha male for sure. But anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm one of the most shy

and unassertive guys you'll ever meet. I've never even approached a gal up until recently, as all through my

school years the gals would come after me.... and I still do more than alright to this regard today. However, there

are very few gals who I develop interest in (this current gal is the first one I've liked in over a YEAR!!!), and

act very differently around the ones that I DO like (get nervous, tongue-tied, get caught looking and turn away in

embarrassment, seem (and am in fact) very unconfident....) I know that I have to change all of this, and am working

on it, but my upcoming question centers around how to interpret my current situation with a certain gal.
From

the moment I first met this gal just over two months ago I felt that something special (more than a physical

attraction). I am a personal trainer, and she goes to the gym I work out of, so I get to see her @4 days a week.

After a few days of friendly chatter (come to find out her mother was my teacher for 6 years, and I was her favorite

student... so much so that she sent me away to college with a present lol) I got up the nerve to start talking with

her more openly. Over time we started emailing every few days, and we'd still chat for about 20 minutes or so a few

times a week in the gym. This gal writes articles for dating mags, so she's constantly reading up on "the game"

that the dating scene has become. In the latest one, she writes about how to avoid wasting time dating; and part of

it basically concludes that gals should stop wasting their time with the bad boy types. To me, this was a VERY good

sign, as in talking with her she knows that I'm certainly a relationship-only guy. But yet every guy she's

mentioned dating when it comes up in our conversations is just that... one of the bad boys who gals in the teen-mid

20s range try to "tame."

Anyways, I've asked her to casually hang out three different times now, two of

which were absolutely last minute and she'd already had plans. The third time she also had a legitimate excuse, as

though I asked five days or so in advance she had plans to go to her alma mater for alumni weekend. So I couldn't

really tell based on these situations if she was really interested. Now in terms of everything I observed in our

time spent together at the gym, I was nearly certain that there was a lot of interest on her part too. From about 4

days or so after I first met her up as recently as this past Thrusday, I will catch her staring at me both directly

and through the many mirrors in the facility; a good dozen times a day at least. And she, of course, catches me just

as frequently. I cuaght her in a slip-up one day where she came into the gym and let it slip that she'd been

talking with her mother about me (got all flustered and had to look down). She'd actually even gotten to the point

where she'd move herself into an accessible area when she'd see me come into the gym (this gal is a BIG believer

in the male having to be the aggressor). She also took an angle I was using to the next level and suggested that we

start training together (I had "jokingly" brought it up that she could be my relationship counselor and I'd be her

trainer). The two times we "worked" together took up a combined 6 HOURS, most of which was spent flirting (TONS of

laughter, lots of positive compliments to one another, some touching... and her eye contact was RIDICULOUS!!!) I had

to keep reminding her after 1/2 hour or so of just chatting that we had to keep moving!

So you'd think she

was into me too, right? Well, THIS is where my question comes in. I got an email from her in response to one I sent

her, and it didn't go so well. I "disguised" it as my going to her for her "relationship therapist" advice, but

really just described our situation to her without putting her name in there, and asked her how I should take it

all. She wrote back saying that if I'd wanted to hang out with her I should have asked for her phone number instead

of being so evasive, that I'd basically stumbled into the "friend" ladder and that she wasn't romantically

interested. I got the dreaded "you're such a nice guy," she sincerely wants to be my friend, and keep training with

me. I, of course, have avoided her for the past week since this happened lol. So.....
1) How in the world could I

have gotten all of those seemingly obvious signals from her and yet she's not interested? Is she playing hard to

get, or is that just a pretty polite way of telling me to give up?

2) Like I said, I don't tend to like many

gals. I get to know them in a social setting before I'll ever consider dating them. I have never felt so much of a

connection with a gal before, and don't want to give up on this one. That's why I'm here. I want to buy a product

that'll help me, along with forcing myself to not be so shy, to get her romantically interested. I spent about 10

hours over the past few days reading through parts of this forum, and from what I've gathered, the Chikara/NPA

combo seems to work wonders. But I have to watch out and make sure I get something that compliments what I naturally

put out there. In terms of what I'd wear out with people who don't know me I'd think I shouldn't wear the -none

containing products, which could make me more intimidating. BUT I don't care about that. I'm literally only buying

this with the intention of getting this girl to see me as more than a friend. She already knows me to be a really

shy, moral and kind person, but she seems to still be into the bad boy types (going completely against what her

article advises). So does this mean I SHOULD buy a -none containing product so she'll think I'm more macho? Plus,

there was a new thread on here this morning about studies showing that -nol and not -none had the most positive

effects on gals. What should I try? If at all possible, I'd like to go with a standalone first, as I've never used

this stuff and would be afraid I'd mess up in mixing a bunch of things when just getting started. So far I'm

thinking maybe Chikara by itself?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and any and all feedback is

GREATLY appreciated.

If I was you I would intentionally flirt with other girls in front of her

to make her jealous.Hanging around lots of women makes a "nice guy" look like a bad boy.

Then again she could

just be threatened by your size.

MOBLEYC57

01-22-2006, 08:10 AM

I'd bet, she likes what she

writes about ... the Bad Boys!

:drunk: SOE and some -none (NPA:TE:PI). :drunk:

bjf

01-22-2006, 08:30 AM

She was writing to

herself!

You've probably got a high none signature. I'm not sure you need more none but you can try it. It

was more a case of your actions (or lack there of). She seems like a pain though.

So Confused

01-22-2006, 10:52 AM

If I was

you I would intentionally flirt with other girls in front of her to make her jealous.Hanging around lots of women

makes a "nice guy" look like a bad boy.

Then again she could just be threatened by your size.

I've

thought about giving this a shot, but I am not one who tends to like to play games. The few times I've been near

her and talked to another gal named Becky in the gym about this other girl named Kymmy who is always hitting on me

in the bars, my gal not only cuts right into our conversations, but she also seems to make the extra effort to come

up and talk to me later on somewhere else in the gym where we're alone. I may have to try this tactic

intentionally now....Good suggestion.

I'd bet, she likes what she writes about ... the Bad

Boys!

Yeah, she has traditionally seemed to be attracted to them since the end of HS when she first

started dating (she's a LOT like me, and shyness with the opposite sex is one of our common traits). However, once

she gets into a relationship with them, it doesn't take her long to figure out that she's not compatible with

them. Her longest relationship to date has only been 1 MONTH lol. This is due to one of two scenarios: 1) She

realizes a few days in that the guy's a jerk and breaks it off. 2) The guy has enough game to play the "kind of

nice guy" role, and will do so for a few weeks before making his true intentions known. Then if she refuses to

sleep with him she gets dumped.
We've actually had some long discussions about her falling into this pattern of

going for the bad boy types, and she constantly says she's not going to do it anymore. But actions speak louder

than words, I guess.

She was writing to herself!

You've probably got a high none signature. I'm

not sure you need more none but you can try it. It was more a case of your actions (or lack there of). She seems

like a pain though.

What do you mean she was writing to herself? Do you think this was maybe a way of

testing me? To see if I'd get more aggressive with her in response? She DID tell me that I should have asked for

her phone number.... Or was it maybe a test to see how serious I am to be in a relationship with her, as if I were

I'd act more aggressively? Do you think that her wanting to still train with me is a means of keeping me around so

she can get a better feel for me than she currently has? I mean, when we work together, over 1/2 that time is spent

flirting and just having fun... do you think that the book's still open here? She is a big one on believing that

there are rules to dating... is this maybe just part of the playing hard to get deal? I know she seems like a real

pain, but to me she's much more than worth it. We really do have an amazing amount in common, and I'm willing to

put in whatever work I have to, so long as there's a chance.

Also, as far as scents go; would you say that I

should go with the Chikara, as I've read that it can be worn pretty much anywhere without seeming out of place? Or

should I use the unscented version with some AXE body spray to mask it? I'll be using it primarily in the gym, as

that's where I run into this gal on a regular basis.

Thanks for all of your input guys. It's much

appreciated.

bjf

01-22-2006, 11:07 AM

she was writing that ARTICLE to

herself.

as for the email, obviously what happened was she excepted you to be a man and take more inititive.

you didn't. she wants a guy who will do the leading. your unassertive ways didn't jive with that. maybe it's too

late now, but since you've got nothing to lose you can still pursue her. but it's got to be more than flirting.

Friendly1

01-23-2006, 07:13 PM

Any

and all responses in regards to this post are welcome, but I'd be especially grateful to get Friendly1's insights.

Sorry it's so long, but I want to be thorough so I can get the best feedback.

Thanks, but

my opinion is just one among many and while I do enjoy sharing my thoughts on body language, I don't see 99% of

what goes on in the scenes other people describe. I could be way off base simply because I work with very, very

filtered information when commenting on other people's situations.

That said....

Anyways, I've asked her to casually hang out three different times now, two of which were absolutely last

minute and she'd already had plans. The third time she also had a legitimate excuse....

A girl who

wants to spend time with you never has anything going on, no matter what is on her schedule. If she doesn't

counter-offer when there is a conflict, even by making a suggestion about when it's a good time, you're dead in

the water.

Situational language is a lot like body language. Take whatever unfolds and magnify it, extrapoate to

ridiculous lengths.

For example, my girlfriend has brought up marriage and children a few times over the past

couple of months. She is not asking me to marry her. She is feeling me out on the subject. Today when we met for

lunch she brought it up again and mentioned how her first boyfriend broke her heart. She then went on into some

little rant about how today people have to go through 3-4 husbands, because they'll never find that one true

match.

So, I looked her in the eye and said, "But I don't want 3-4 husbands!"

My point is that she is

telling me something, either that I have potential or I don't. You never know when you fall off the short list of

possible Mr. Rights. But the conversation was relatively innocuous. We just happened to end up reading each other's

palms and talking about how many children we're (each) going to have (miraculously, I found we'll both have 2, but

I pointed out that "4 is better").

I've been told that when a girl starts talking about marriage and babies,

it's a test. She is constantly testing me in very subtle ways.

Keep that in mind: They test you constantly, and

they test you without even thinking about it. They'll test you even when they are not interested just to see what

they can get away with.

Okay, back to you.

...Now in terms of everything I observed in our time spent

together at the gym, I was nearly certain that there was a lot of interest on her part too. From about 4 days or so

after I first met her up as recently as this past Thrusday, I will catch her staring at me both directly and through

the many mirrors in the facility; a good dozen times a day at least. And she, of course, catches me just as

frequently. I cuaght her in a slip-up one day where she came into the gym and let it slip that she'd been talking

with her mother about me (got all flustered and had to look down)....

I doubt if the slip-up was

accidental (but I am missing 99% of the conversation). Remember that you're the big muscular man who can crush her

like an aluminum can. She has to make sure she feels safe around you. Safe means you won't hurt her and you won't

allow anyone else to hurt her.

Casual comments often reveal subtle vulnerabilities that provide you with an

opportunity to prove you're a gentleman with some class. Any guy can be crass and obnoxious. She will react

insinctively to any guy who stands out from the rest.

...She'd actually even gotten to the point where

she'd move herself into an accessible area when she'd see me come into the gym (this gal is a BIG believer in the

male having to be the aggressor). She also took an angle I was using to the next level and suggested that we start

training together (I had "jokingly" brought it up that she could be my relationship counselor and I'd be her

trainer). The two times we "worked" together took up a combined 6 HOURS, most of which was spent flirting (TONS of

laughter, lots of positive compliments to one another, some touching... and her eye contact was RIDICULOUS!!!) I had

to keep reminding her after 1/2 hour or so of just chatting that we had to keep moving!

So far, this

could be due to interest and it could be due to personality and it could be due to strong natural pheromones

(you're working out, after all), and it could be due to lots of stuff. But it all falls into the "one type of

action" category. One action = one signal. One signal doesn't tell you enough.

When in doubt, change something,

do something different. Get another signal.

So you'd think she was into me too, right? Well, THIS is

where my question comes in. I got an email from her in response to one I sent her, and it didn't go so well. I

"disguised" it as my going to her for her "relationship therapist" advice, but really just described our situation

to her without putting her name in there, and asked her how I should take it all. She wrote back saying that if I'd

wanted to hang out with her I should have asked for her phone number instead of being so evasive, that I'd

basically stumbled into the "friend" ladder and that she wasn't romantically interested. I got the dreaded "you're

such a nice guy," she sincerely wants to be my friend, and keep training with me. I, of course, have avoided her for

the past week since this happened lol. So.....

I would say that you may have had a chance but you blew

it as soon as you whimped out and sent her the "disguised" email. You should have just said, "Look, Judy, I'm

feeling some interest from you. Let's get together and split a pizza after the next workout. Veggie only, of

course."

That's when Miss Dating Guru knows you want to go out. And if she says, "No, thanks. I just want to be

friends", you say, "No problem. Of course, you haven't really met my friends. You may not like their company. I get

a little tired of playing Scrabble all the time so I look for other things to do."

"Such as?"

"You let me

know when you'd really like to find out."

That tells her to fish or cut bait.

Of course, Don Steele says

the best reply is, "I have PLENTY of friends", and then you shut up until she says something.

Never apologize

for making a wussy-mistake. Never apologize for being yourself. As long as you are treating her with courtesy and

respect, you don't need to apologize for asking her out, for looking at her in "that" way occasionally, or for

being the man that you are.

1) How in the world could I have gotten all of those seemingly obvious

signals from her and yet she's not interested? Is she playing hard to get, or is that just a pretty polite way of

telling me to give up?

I think you had a chance up until you came across like a wuss. Some people might

peg her as a game player, though. She has manipulated yet one more man into groveling at her feet.

The only way

to save the situation, based on my experience, is to move on and let her see you spend time with other girls.

She'll rethink her decision in a heart beat. They always do.

2) Like I said, I don't tend to like many

gals. I get to know them in a social setting before I'll ever consider dating them.

That's what you

and I and every other guy has done all our lives. Turn every encounter into a date and you'll never have to ask for

a date again. Let them know right off the bat (without saying it, of course), whether you might be interested.

But practice with the girls who indicate to you that you may have a chance. They are not asking for committed

relationships when they flirt with you.

It's ironic how women supposedly wonder why they cannot get men to

commit, and yet so many men start thinking about relationships before the girls can even raise them out of the

"Creepy Stranger Who Irks Me" category to "Maybe He Is Worth Flirting With".

...I have never felt so much

of a connection with a gal before, and don't want to give up on this one. That's why I'm

here....

Abandon hope, all ye who walk down this path. When you realize and accept that there

are more girls out there who will make you feel this connection again and again, you'll start to look and act and

think like the Alpha Male you truly were born to be.

They are constantly being hit upon by men all day, seven

days a week. If they go outside, men are looking at them. If they bend over, men are looking at them. For even many

average-looking women, even women who are moderately overweight, it's a smorgasboard of attention. Some women get

asked out far more than others. But they all get looked at, and they know instinctively who is looking at them and

how they are being looked at.

That is where the pheromones will help you, in my opinion. That is where they

helped me. You start to notice the women checking YOU out. The pheromones turn up the volume. You get to see (and

appreciate) the smorgasboard of attention that life has laid out in front of you. And it was there all along. You

just didn't see it or appreciate it. But pheromones seem to bring out the best in women (in my experience).

You probably just need to back off. You don't need to stop liking her, but you need to open yourself up to other

girls. Don't look or wait for "the one". Just teach yourself to enjoy their company and learn to do things with

them where there is no pressure. Use your time with other girls to teach yourself how to relax and be confident

around one you really like.

It's okay to really like a girl from the start, but you have to show her you're

not just another mousy, unconfident guy who has no game.

My current girl and I go down this path every now and

then. If I feel like I'm being too accomodating, I pull back. A few weeks ago, I was pressing her to spend more

time with me. She literally said, "Why are you in such a rush? We still have time."

BIG signal there. And I got

it. I didn't like it, but I understood her point. So I backed off.

Reading situational language and body

language can be done in two ways:

1) You exaggerate everything, extend it as far as you possibly can. If she

holds a drink in front of her chest, she is putting up a barrier. If she crosses a crowded room full of people to

stand next to you (especially where other women are present), she is saying, "I want to be close to you."

2)

Reduce everything to its most primal level possible.

If she flirts with you in any way, she is saying, "If you

don't screw up, I may let you be the father of my next baby." If she provokes you in any way, she is saying, "Show

me what you are made of."

The average man probably fails more tests in a day than he recognizes in a month.

When a woman walks up to you in a crowded club and says, "Will you please dance with me?", no matter what she

looks like, no matter how many ton trucks it takes to move her across the floor, get your butt out there and find a

rhythm to move to. You are the hottest item on every woman's radar from that point forward until you screw up.

Your job, as a man, is not only to avoid screwing up as much as possible, but to make it look like nothing

happened whenever you screw up in a small way (the big blunders require some tactful fence-mending).

Friendly1

01-23-2006, 07:26 PM

...We've

actually had some long discussions about her falling into this pattern of going for the bad boy types, and she

constantly says she's not going to do it anymore. But actions speak louder than words, I guess.

Yes.

You're acting like her girlfriend, not like a prospective boy friend. You don't have to be a bad boy. You just

have to be someone who isn't tamed.

...She DID tell me that I should have asked for her phone number.... Or

was it maybe a test to see how serious I am to be in a relationship with her, as if I were I'd act more

aggressively?

No, she's young enough to think that you should be asking for her phone number. Most

guys are afraid to do that, so it's another test (and one that easily gets abused).

...Do you think that

her wanting to still train with me is a means of keeping me around so she can get a better feel for me than she

currently has?...

It is starting to sound like you're her big muscle-bound girlfriend, with whom she

feels safe and can say anything. The next time she starts talking about another guy, change the subject and let her

go on about something neutral, or bring a quick but firm and polite end to the conversation.

Pongo

01-23-2006, 07:38 PM

Ahhh the Friendly1 gettin his

teach on ~ really good stuff!

So Confused

01-23-2006, 10:03 PM

Wow, thanks a lot Friendly1.

There's so much info to process in there that I may have to read it a few times lol. I think I'm gonna try that

suggestion out to flirt with other gals around her. I just need to get her to hang out with me outside of the

gym... maybe I should go with her to a karaoke bar... I am a pretty good vocalist (used to have STALKERS off and on

during my last 3 years of college over it all lol), and SHE actually made mention of the idea once awhile back...

hmm, how the heck did I miss THAT sign lol. That way I can definitely become the center of attention, which should

get her looking at me the way I want her to again.

I finally talked with her again tonight as she was getting

ready to leave. I have to admit, it felt VERY awkward this time around, and neither of us made a whole lot of eye

contact. However, I DID find out from the gym owner, who is a good friend to each of us, that before this

awkwardness she'd kept asking him all sorts of questions about me while I was busy training a client. And I still

caught her staring at me several times while I was working too. We're going to start working together again soon,

and I will make certain to avoid being a wuss this time around.

If I want to get her back to liking me

romantically, which I obviously do, it won't seem pitiful if I go back to being flirty with her again right? Even

given that she's told me she's not interested?

And what kind of pheromone do you think I should go with

Friendly1? Do you think that the Chikara would be the best standalone option? And should I go with the scented, or

unscented and mask it with AXE bodyspray? Thanks again for your numerous, and highly insightful comments.

Friendly1

01-24-2006, 02:37 AM

Act like nothing happened. The

worst she can do is drop you from her life. You'll still be breathing if she never shows up again.

Like my dad

says, "Let it happen, don't make it happen."

And this time around, PAY ATTENTION.

Re: Pheromones

You're probably generating plenty of Androstenone. Try Scent of Eros or Chikara or one of the similar "social"

products.

So Confused

01-24-2006, 04:55 AM

I'll try that, to act as

though it's no biggie. I should see her in there this morning. I'll also pick up some of that Chikara, see what

happens there. I'll post here with any updates to the situation. Thanks again for all of the help

everyone.:goodpost:

catlord17

01-24-2006, 08:38 PM

I'm a little late to this

conversation, but I have a couple of things to add.

First, Friendly, wow. Great stuff. I love learning more

about body language because it has literally been like learning to see in entirely new wavelengths of light. I used

to think girls didn't notice me... now I realize they're always noticing me, and I have to be the man and say

hello. Since I started doing that, it's been great.

Secondly, So Confused, I have a suggestion for you. If you

frame this as a situation in which you have something to lose - you have already lost. The moment you have

something to lose, you start expressing this through body language and how you act, and this says WEAKNESS. She's

not the kind who goes for Betas, or she'd be in the pet section of Wal Mart picking between red or blue.

But,

when you approach women as a form of social entertainment, and stop caring if you end up with any particular one,

they will sense this as STRENGTH and VALUE and start gravitating like flies. This says, "I'm not weak and I don't

need you. But I'm enjoying your company, and having fun." It's a game! Play it with them! Go have fun! Enjoy

the socializing, and presume nothing else. Tease her, play with her, make her laugh, and laugh along with her, even

if the joke is on you. It takes a confident, secure man to enjoy a joke about himself. (And by the way, being fun

and funny is a great way to be less intimidating. You're doubtless intimidating physically, just as I intimidate

people intellectually. Fun overcomes that problem.)

I have never had so much fun as since I stopped caring

whether a woman liked me and started playing it as a social game. And since I did that, I have - when I choose to

open my mouth - started attracting women all over the place. My friends are commenting that I have a harem now, and

they're only half joking when they say it. And these women are interested, but I'm only looking for

friends!

It is strange to think that you need to stop caring if you get her in order to get her... but this idea

works. You know how they say you find what you're looking for when you stop looking? Of course you do need to

express interest, too... but I find that if you do this by having fun with them, it only makes them want you

more.

I am tiny compared to you - 5'8" tall and 125 pounds soaking wet. I can't gain weight to save my life,

although I haven't tried at a gym yet, and I am planning to do that when I have the finances, if only just to feel

better about myself and socialize more. But, as small framed as I am, I get a lot of attention and I know it's not

just the pheromones. It's the fact that I have a "take it or leave, it I'm here to have fun and I don't care

otherwise" attitude. That, and I am VERY perceptive to what women say without speaking.

I suggest you learn to

read people. Faces, posture, body language, and vocal cues all tell you about what she's thinking, even if she

doesn't say so. If you become skilled at this, people will actually begin thinking you're psychic because you

know what they are thinking, but not actually saying out loud. I have a few people who genuinely believe I'm

psychic because I have gotten so good at reading these subtle clues people give, and there's not a damned thing

psychic about them. The ability to read people is invaluable. It's also very entertaining to women if you can

mystify them with knowing things you "shouldn't know" - especially if you then tell them you are not psychic! It

makes for an even more fun game to play. "But then how did you know? C'mon, please tell me?"
"Nope."

:cheers:

Have fun. :)

So Confused

01-24-2006, 09:55 PM

Great post catlord. As

weird as I think it is, I know first hand that what you're talking about with the ladies is true. I was always a

RIDICULOUSLY shy guy when it came to gals in general, if they showed any signs of interest in me romantically. And

God forbid I should LIKE one of them, 'cuz I'd literally run away from them lol. Yet as long as things were just

on a friendly basis... let's just say most of my closest friends were gals.

When I got into college I was not

only the big man on campus for the last three years I was there, but I was also in that acapella group I mentioned

earlier. I had gals all over me, ALL the time. And because I'm not typically attracted to overaggressive gals, I

couldn't care less about the overwhelming majority of them. Thus, I'd just be my wise arse self with them and

have a good old time.. and they just came after me moreso than before lol. It got so bad that I had people finding

out where I lived, showing up and trying to get autographs, pictures, give me phone numbers... then there were booty

calls and getting groped in the bars all the tim (have I mentioned yet that I miss college something fierce?! lol).

I've known how I NEED to do things since back then.... I just haven't ever been able to put this into

practice with the few gals I've actually cared for romantically. As recent as three weeks back I went out with some

pals and got called over to talk to these three gals who were asking about me. I talked to them and was just having

fun with them for 20 minutes... by the end of that time I'd had all 3 of them ready to go back to my buddy's house

with us lol. Of course then I continued to be myself and didn't do anything more than talk with them lol. But

just knowing that I can do very well for myself until I actually care... it drives me CRAZY!!!:frustrate

The

statement about having lost if you go in thinking there's something to lose is absolutely priceless. I will try

and keep that in mind. I am on the site right now ordering a bottle of Chikara as we speak. So hopefully that'll

help me to loosen up around her a bit more. I think I honestly need it more for the effects it'll have on ME than

what it'll do to her lol.

I've also seen a few references to good books on body language that I've written

down somewhere, and will certainly take some time and pick that up too. I'm just going to change my mindset and

focus on things I can control, especially cutting up for a photo shoot I'm doing in early April, and let her come

to me, if it's going to happen at all. She already knows how I feel, so I'll let her decide what happens next.

Thanks a lot for the advice. If anyone has suggestions as to books on the whole body language topic, I'd love to

see them. I figure I'll wait 'til I get a list of 1/2 dozen or so, then just start in on my reading.

catlord17

01-24-2006, 10:27 PM

Here's my advice:

Never,

ever wait to do what you can do RIGHT NOW.

I learned this one when I became a photographer. See a great shot?

Stop what you're doing and get it NOW. It might never be available again. Same is true for a lot of other things

in life.

Don't wait to educate yourself. Just go to the bookstore, find a book on it, and read. You don't

need to buy it. And you can even use it to strike up conversations. "Hey, according to this book, you want me!"

Said the right way, it's hilarious.

Another idea: Walk over to an attractive woman and say, "Excuse me, but I

need a woman's point of view on something, would you mind? I have a friend who always does this one particular

thing when we get together, and I was wondering what it means when she does it? Is she interested? Is she

nervous?" This has the added bonus that you're now talking to a woman, and can practice on her.

Spend time

watching others interact, too. Great stuff. And fun!

You know what to do. The success is already in you. What

you need to do is change some of your responses. You can do that by deciding what you need to change and then

writing down, in a short, positively phrased manner, what it is youneed to become. (Example: I am cool and

confident with women I find attractive.) Then, make a recording of yourself saying it in a confident, assured way.

Spend some time listening to it every day, and repeat after it, as so:

Tape: "I am cool and confident with women

I find attractive."
You: (Out loud) "Yes, I am cool and confident with women I find attractive."

Also play it at

low volume in the background while you do other things, especially as you sleep. Eventually, this becomes your new

belief and it manifests as your new reality. Try it; it works. If you need help with the phrasing, just ask. Make

sure there are no negatives in any statement, though!

Finally, remember that no matter what assails you, where

there is a will, there is a way. Sometimes you have to reconsider your beliefs to find the way. Sometimes

you'll need to increase your knowledge. But there's always some way. Always. Don't let yourself be limited by

thinking inside the box... and don't let self limiting beliefs stop you either. Or other people's negativity.

Positive thinking. Just decide you will achieve your goal, and act. As Picard would say, "Make it so,

Number One."

My favorite thing to remind myself is that as long as I do what it takes to succeed, success is

inevitable. More often than not, the only thing it takes is perseverance.

And for goodness sakes... have

fun. That's what it's all about. :)

CptKipling

01-25-2006, 06:07 AM

So Confused,

Your problem

isn't not knowing what to do to attract someone, or that you don't notice when they are interested. Your problem

is that you think very destructively when you like her. When you aren't interested you seem to attract perfectly

fine, but as soon as you are interested she has a completely different meaning to you - she makes you turn on your

(sorry for the bluntness) currently crappy courtship circuitry.

First of all, its good to see that you've

noticed that you can be very attractive to women when you aren't interested. But instead of trying to sort out the

way you act when you care about her, you should learn to place less importance on her.

Imagine that there are

"attraction switches" to be flipped, and when enough are in the "on" position it will be inevitable that you will

get together. From what you have written it seems that you have flipped her physical attraction switch, but she has

a lot of other switches that you are just not going anywhere near ("confident enough to get what he wants",

"decisive", etc.). This is because she is sitting pretty on a pedestal in your mind.

She is just another girl,

the only difference is that she seems to have potential to be a good girlfriend. By putting her on that

pedestal you are rewarding her for just being in your life. It would be fine to do things like that if she had made

some kind of proportional commitment to you, or had expressed some proportional level of approval, or you are

pointing out something that you genuinely find to be cool about her.

If you still want this girl then start

treating her like a girl you are just having a great time with. It's ok to be interested in her and even show it,

but only for "real" things.

Also, you need to be a man. You need to be confident enough in yourself to go for

the things you are interested.

So Confused

01-30-2006, 05:15 PM

Hey guys. Sorry it's taken

me so long to get back to you. Things have been really busy at work, with the fam, and going out. Both of those

posts are again loaded with tons of great advice. I love that part about needing to get myself to see this girl as

just another girl, but as one with POTENTIAL to be more. I've been putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

And It was hilarious that you brought up the whole pedestal thing too, as I actually have termed this shortcoming

of mine as "The Pedestal Complex."

I think it's hilarious how much different I am in certain settings too. I

was in the bar with these three gals one night a few weeks back. I was still too shy to do the approach, even

though I have what I term "Tunnel Vision" for the gal I've been talking about all through these posts. But once my

buddy pulled off the approach, the GIRLS hounded HIM to get ME over there. After talking with them for around 20

minutes I had all three of them back at my buddy's place lol. So I guess even when it comes to the gals I'm not

interested in, I still struggle with the approach.

Anyways, a bit of an update... I just got my Chikara

(scented) in the mail the other day, along with the Beginner's Combo and free samples. I tried the Chikara solo

when I went out to the big city on Saturday with my friends, but couldn't really tell if it made a difference. The

two gals I noticed I got the most attention from were my buddy's gf and sister lol. The gf grabbed my butt and

must have told me that she loved me about 7 times, but she's done that before, so that's not any indication of

things. I've gone out with my buddy's sister a few times too, so we've gotten quite chatty on several occasions.

I would have to say that this time around she was leaning into me a bit more than she usually does, but nothing big

over previous times. Of course I also have to take into account that things take longer to work on those whom

you've known for awhile. Not that I want them to work with either of those gals!! lol

On Friday night when I

went out you'd have sworn I had on a ton of -none, as I hadn't made it 5 feet into the bar when I was grabbed and

hugged by a girl lol. I was getting all the gals hanging on me, all the guys shaking my hand and buying me

drinks... and I just had on my regular cologne (didn't get the -mones 'til Saturday morning). I can't wait to

try out the Chikara in that bar this weekend (assuming the usual crowd will be there again). If I could get my

crush to go out there with me in that setting she'd no doubt get jealous and start looking at me as more than the

really smart, big guy from the gym.

As far as things go with my girl... I should see her again either tomorrow

or Thursday, but am iffy as to what to apply around her, being we'll be in the gym setting again. I know that I

put off the whole alpha male thing just based on my size alone demanding respect, so if I were to add a touch of TE

with the Chikara, I'd be nervous that it'd intimidate her further. What do you guys think I should do? Remember,

with her I already have the whole friendship/comfort thing going... I WANT her to see me as more than a friend. So

does that mean I should add some -none?

Thanks again for everything.

Watcher

01-30-2006, 07:43 PM

yes avoid the pedistool complex at

all costs it will destroy any chances u have in most cases.

Friendly1

01-31-2006, 06:25 PM

Anyways, a

bit of an update... I just got my Chikara (scented) in the mail the other day, along with the Beginner's Combo and

free samples. I tried the Chikara solo when I went out to the big city on Saturday with my friends, but couldn't

really tell if it made a difference. The two gals I noticed I got the most attention from were my buddy's gf and

sister lol. ...

It seems like no matter how often we say it, guys still don't get the message.

You will not notice immediate effects on people who already know you.

The pheromones have the most

immediate impact on people who have never met you before.

People who already know you will gradually adjust to

your new pheromone signature and begin to show some changes in behavior (it varies from wearer to wearer, and from

individual to individual).

Gegogi

01-31-2006, 09:55 PM

Friendly spake the truth.

So Confused

01-31-2006, 11:32 PM

Of course

I also have to take into account that things take longer to work on those whom you've known for awhile. Not that I

want them to work with either of those gals!! lol

But I DID get it :confused: haha I seriously am

trying my darndest to internalize everything that you guys are telling me, as I'm sick of missing out on the very

few gals who I see as worth the time and effort just 'cuz I then get shy.

Anyways, I tried 2 sprays of Chikara

today (spread between the neck and wrists) along with 2 dabs of TE applied to the same areas. I need help in

figuring out how best to time my applications, however. I recall reading somewhere that either the -none or the

-nol requires a few hours from application 'til it begins to work most effectively. That said, how would you all

suggest I go about timing things in relation to my girl's arrival at the gym? Should I take them at the same time,

both @ 2 hours early? Or both within 1/2 an hour of her ETA? Should they be taken at different times? I'll have

been working out before this point, so I'll use AXE bodyspray in order to help cover the smell of both any

bacterial breakdown and the TE. Thanks again for your insights guys. :box:

koolking1

02-01-2006, 08:37 AM

big clue to how you are

thinking:

"As far as things go with my girl... "

As far as I can tell, she isn't "your girl". If

you want her to be your girl you'll have to find another girl, preferably somewhat more attractive physically than

the one you really want and you have to make sure "your girl" sees this.

Personally, I would ignore "your

girl". She may come back, she may not. At least it ups your odds. My experience is that they usually come back

but it doesn't last. Good Luck.

abcd2

02-01-2006, 10:51 AM

i agree with catlord. Just a

couple of months back i was taking the iniative and just trying to talk and get to know as much females as i could,

and i can honestly say that it was the best tiem of my life. Then i hit a slump where many factors in my life just

completely threw my previous lifestyle out the window.... ever since then ive been trying to go back to the way it

was.........

CptKipling

02-02-2006, 04:01 PM

So I guess

even when it comes to the gals I'm not interested in, I still struggle with the approach.

But, you still cared about what they thought of you. The key is to be completely detached from the

outcome if the situation, and almost completely not care what anyone thinks of you. That is what makes bad boys

attractive to some women - those are very attractive traits to a woman, it's just that some women still find them

attractive if the guy is a dick.

If you make a real commitment to fix these issues you will be successful.

So Confused

02-09-2006, 08:36 PM

Hey everyone. Just thought

I'd give a little update, as a lot's happened since I last wrote in. The girl I've been into has been coming in

at all sorts of random times as of late, so I never know when to try and time out putting the mones on (I still

don't know if I should put them on and leave a certain amount of time or what not). So I've basically been going

regular mode, all but once, when I had had the 2 dabs of TE and 2 sprays of Chikara on for about 1/2 hour before she

got in. I noticed no difference from how she normally acts, which could again be due to her being familiar with my

scent and needing some time to come around to it. However, she's still acting as mixed with me as ever. When in

the gym, she tries to monopolize my time, and the only time her body language changes from being very open and at

times submissive acting around me is when I make any mention of other gals. Then she can't look at me and gets all

fidgety, for the most part.

A great example came the other day when I was bouncing around talking with she and

two other gals who like to flirt with me, over by the cardio machines. I had to run to the bathroom quick in

between it all, and when I'd come back out she had gotten off of the bike she was on (she's usually on for a good

45 minutes and had gotten off within 10 today) and moved into the free weight area, which was closer to the hallway

that leadsto the bathroom. She then intercetped me as I was on my way back towards the two other gals, talking in a

cute little "help me" voice. We then basically flirted for the better part of the next 45 minutes, with me helping

her for about 7-10 minutes worth of it. As usual, we had a ball. I had her laughing and the body language seemed to

be favorable; plus we even found out a few MORE things we have in common.

Then, also as usual, things seemed

altogether different when the notion of any relationship outside of the gym came up. I wrote her a witty message

that at one point brought up the notion of watching one of our mutually favorite movies. I was very upfront in

stating that we could watch it in a large crowd, in neutral territory, and that I know I'm somehow in her friend

zone right now, so I wouldn't take it as her leading me on to accept. At the end of the message I gave her my IM

name and told her to write me the next time she got a bit of insomnia. While she never responded to my message and

the invite, she DID IM me later that evening, and we talked for 2 1/2 HOURS on there. It was a VERY personal

conversation, in which we both revealed a good amount about ourselves (me moreso than her). It was a PHENOMENAL

talk though, and I am more hooked on her now than ever.

We also worked together today for 1 1/2 hours, flirting

again quite a bit, with a LOT of hands on and up close contact... I wish I'd had some TE on lol. BUT I guess she

told my buddy who owns the gym shortly before I started talking with her that she sees me as a "safe guy" or

something like that. So I remain confused. Plus now she seems set on moving to Seattle within the next few months.

She's talked about moving before and hasn't, but we'll see what happens.

CptKipling-
The funny thing

that's happened over the past two weeks is that I'm seeing EXACTLY what you mean about not caring and it drawing

them in. I've had quite a bit of drama with 6 different girls over the past 2 weekends, and am supposed to go on a

date with one, to another's party, and to hang out with a third this Saturday... each of them pursued me lol... and

I wasn't wearing any 'mones. I also had a few middle aged women trying to lift up my coat the other night at the

bar to check out my arse, and at a doctor's appointment last Thursday I had only a muscle shirt on while I got my

BP checked and had to wait on the doctor coming in. The nurse who'd been waiting on me came back and opened the

door up a few minutes after leaving, and 5 or 6 of her fellow nurses were all huddled in the doorway trying to check

me out lol. Over the next 40 minutes (the doctor was WAY behind schedule) I must have had between 9 and 12

different nurses popping in and out, using the excuse that they didn't realize the room was occupied lol. Good

times.. again, no 'mones. I just hate that I get all of this positive attention from everyone but the one person I

want it from.

Friendly1

02-10-2006, 03:46 PM

You talk about other girls and

you write a witty message.

*sigh*

So Confused

02-10-2006, 04:31 PM

You talk

about other girls and you write a witty message.

*sigh*

Haha... enough said. I realize this was

dumb. I'm really gonna take the route that in my eyes I'm done with her. After yesterdays interaction, I asked

her to come down in between 12 and 5pm sometime and save me from boredom, as the owner of the gym is out of town and

I was there alone. She showed up right at the exact time that I normally leave.... pissed me right off. It was

ironic, 'cuz a few of my buddies who always see us interact were just earlier today talking about how ridiculously

flirty the two of us were yesterday... how she was so opened up to me that she was sticking her chest right out at

me and everything. So whether she's playing games or not, I just don't give a crap anymore. I can't deal with

her anymore.

So screw her. I am going out with one of the gals from last weekend tonight, who isn't playing

games, just expressing LOTS of interest. But we're supposed to meet that gal who I am supposed to go on a date

with out later.. might get a bit hairy lol. I plan on putting on some Chikara and some TE, and in the mood I'm in

right now, I'll certainly be acting like the alpha male wherever the heck I wind up lol.

CptKipling

02-10-2006, 06:04 PM

So Confused,

I share

Friendly's disdain. It would be so easy to get this girl if you stopped being afraid of losing her and actively

lead her into a relationship. You have to be the "aggressor", stop being timid.

I was very upfront in

stating that we could watch it in a large crowd, in neutral territory, and that I know I'm somehow in her friend

zone right now, so I wouldn't take it as her leading me on to accept.

That was timid.

Just do it,

step out of your comfort zone and take a risk; it might just be worth it.

CptKipling

02-11-2006, 12:43 PM

My point is why not actually

try to get her. If it messes up then fine move on.

So Confused

02-11-2006, 04:10 PM

screw her is

probably the right thing to do, you've got your options so just fool around with whomever you want, right?

:cheers:

Haha... the sad truth is that I've always been a guy who wants relationships. I've never

seen any purpose to just doing the whole random hookup thing. I met up with the gal I'm supposed to go on a date

with last night at the bar, but ditched her and the other gals and went home early (2am, but that's early for me),

as I have absolutely no interest in her or any of the others that were there lol. I'm supposed to meet up with

another gal tonight when she gets out of work... in a more intimate setting. But I now am searching for a way out

of that too lol. I am HOOKED on the gal from the gym!!!

Cpt Kipling, I feel like I already HAVE tried to get

her. I put in the effort in the gym (when she doesn't approach me in the first place), and we have a ball there

all the time. It's just that I can't seem to get her to hang out outside of that darn place. It's not due to a

lack of effort, in my opinion. I've been beating the hell out of myself to figure out why it's not going anywhere

though, seeing as how we're so very compatible. Has anyone here ever read up on "Ladder Theory?" This is actually

something that the gal I'm hooked on brought up to me. It talks about how with gals they base a lot on money/power

(like 50%), then 40% on attraction and 10% on the things gals claim to be important but they really don't care

about (humor, kindness....) . Well, I figure I've got the physical attraction and personality stuff (which isn't

that big of a deal according to the theory) covered... but I'm not exactly loaded by any stretch of the imagination

at this point. I have the unique traits of being a bodybuilder and a singer, and novelty is supposedly something

that enhances your value to a woman. But between the fact that I fell into her friends ladder and that I'm not

rich, she is just unattainable for me right now? Dang gals are so complicated.

Friendly1

02-11-2006, 04:29 PM

Confidence is all you need.

Friendly1

02-12-2006, 04:28 PM

its one thing to

say it, building it is a completely different beast altogether :)

No one is born confident, at least not

in my experience.

You're confident you can put your pants on correctly, right? How did you build that

confidence, if not by dressing yourself?

You're confident you can use a telephone. How did you build that

confidence, if not by using a telephone?

You're confident you can drive a car. How did you build that

confidence, if not by driving?

When my grandfather picked me up and threw me out into the deep end of the

swimming pool, he knew I had the skills to swim. I just didn't have any confidence. When I stopped panicking and

calmed down, I realized two things: first, he was right there beside me, making sure I wouldn't drown; and then

that I was swimming.

When you are in the deep end of the pool, you only have two choices: sink or swim. If

you're lucky, someone will be there to help you get out if you sink. But you have to do the swimming on your own.

You become a better swimmer by swimming.

You become a better man-for-that-girl by being a man for that girl.

She may throw you a lifeline if you get in too deep. But she won't do the job for you.

Just do it.

Believe you can do it.

The more you do it, the more you believe you can do it.

That's how you build

confidence.

So Confused

02-13-2006, 05:17 PM

Have you guys ever seen the

movie "Say Anything," starring John Cusack and Ione Skye, from the late '80s? There's an absolutely classic line

in there..."She's gone. She gave me a pen. I gave her my heart, she gave me a pen...." Sadly, this describes the

conversation I had with that girl last night on IM. I completely opened up to her... we'd been in a discussion on

Ladder Theory, and the next thing I knew I was being asked if I thought of her as being superficial. So I just came

out with it.... told her how crazy she's made me; how I think about her all the time... EVERYTHING. I KNOW I

shouldn't do that, according to the "rules of the game," but I don't like to play games. I am open and honest, to

the point where it could cost me... and I think it definitely just sealed my fate with her. So here I was, putting

my heart out on a plate for her; and she just changed the subject... so you could say "I gave her my heart, and she

gave me a change of topic." lol. Gotta love it.

i guess a reason ppl go out on dates is

like an interview, getting to know someone for the first time, right? thats why its never a good idea to lay all

your cards on the table, it leaves nothing to be desired, cuz they know you from the inside out. drop a hint or two

about something that intrigues the girl, but don't lay it all out, so it lets her see a side of you that can't be

shown in the gym setting.

Yeah, I've made mention of my past, where I was into the whole acapella

singing scene and all. When I started talking about one song in particular, in which I do a few muppet voices, she

started to show some real interest in it, saying she may need to hear it. And she also knows that I can be the life

of the party and all, as every time I interact with her or anyone else, everyone winds up turning to see what all

the laughter is over... it's almost always due to me telling stories and having everyone around me cracking up.

But she for some reason or other just isn't interested. I just have to accept that I can't change it and move on,

I guess. I have other opportunities, one of which seems like she could have some real potential, but nothing like

this gal I've been chasing after.

Friendly1,
That's gotta be some of the most sage advice I've ever

received. I just want to thank you and let you know how much I truly appreciate your insights. I actually AM very

confident that I'm right on the ball when I say that we'd make an amazing couple, and have let her know tons of

reasons why.... but I'm still lacking any sort of real confidence when it comes to saying that kind of stuff to her

face to face. I AM confident enough to be funny as heck around her though, and have been doing so for the past

several weeks. Plus I am now getting cocky to the point where I can see how she reacts to being close to me when

I'm showing off my physique with a tight shirt... and I'm able to use it to my advantage... to make her get

fidgety and all.

But like I said, for some reason or other she's just not going to come around. Maybe just

'cuz my initial impression was one of being too friendly. Or maybe it's got more to do with the fact that all of

her closest female friends, who've all moved far away themselves, are dead set on pushing her to move to Seattle,

basically clear across the country from our current location. And of course there's also the fact that her

parents, her mom in particular, are big fans of mine and the idea. This could easily work AGAINST me lol. Who

knows.. but I'm sick of missing out on sleep and feeling miserable 'cuz of this gal, no matter how amazing I think

she is. I'm going to try and distance myself from her. It will at least help me to start getting over her. And

if not, maybe it'll have that opposite effect that the "rules of the game" talk about.... I've made a very

positive impression in that she too admits that we're ridiculously compatible, knows she has fun with me and all.

Now maybe my NOT being very available to her will get her realizing that she WANTS me in her life. Either way, this

will be a better move for ME, so as hard as it is, I'm going to let go for now.

Thanks again for all of your

advice everyone. I truly appreciate it. :goodpost:

CptKipling

02-13-2006, 07:53 PM

So Confused,

It's not

about playing games, it's about knowing the rules of courtship and working the system. You couldn't jump in

a car and ignore the guidelines, stay in first gear and just rev the crap out of it; you just wouldn't get very

far. Similarly you can't expect to create a healthy relationship with a girl by doing the things you were doing.

You should always be genuine but still be aware that all things have to be done a certain way. If you keep doing

what you're doing you'll keep getting what your getting.

That ladders thing is BS btw. All you need to ever

worry about is having the attributes that are attractive to women (none of them is money, but money can signify

some). I believe that you, like most men, already posses them but you aren't comfortable enough around the things

you want to display them. Confidence is the absence of discomfort, and like Friendly said you just have to start of

the self perpetuating cycle of having the courage to do something, getting confidence out of doing it and then doing

it again. You have to step out of your comfort zone and learn to get comfortable with your discomfort too.

Stop

resting on your excuses and just do it.

I hope you get what you want.

gaf

02-13-2006, 08:43 PM

im too afraid to wear

pants, zippers scare me :p

lol, seen "meet the parents" have we?
:cheers:

Friendly1

02-13-2006, 09:45 PM

...Sadly,

this describes the conversation I had with that girl last night on IM.

Imagine the future of the human

race depends on your sexual success. The clock is ticking, as you only have so much time to find a mate.

And

imagine that you only have 3 years left to live.

Now, do you really want to spend those 3 years IMing and

writing love notes to girls who won't go out with you?

Friendly1,
That's gotta be some of the most

sage advice I've ever received. I just want to thank you and let you know how much I truly appreciate your

insights. I actually AM very confident that I'm right on the ball when I say that we'd make an amazing couple, and

have let her know tons of reasons why.... but I'm still lacking any sort of real confidence when it comes to saying

that kind of stuff to her face to face. I AM confident enough to be funny as heck around her though, and have been

doing so for the past several weeks. Plus I am now getting cocky to the point where I can see how she reacts to

being close to me when I'm showing off my physique with a tight shirt... and I'm able to use it to my advantage...

to make her get fidgety and all.

Your problem is that you're rushing. You're in no position to be

writing intimate messages to her.

My girlfriend threw me a lifeline a couple of months ago when she told me I

was taking things too fast for her. In her mind, we still have plenty of time.

Backing off and slowing down to

her chosen pace without caving in and becoming a total wuss is the hardest thing to do. At some point, the girl

tries to take control and that is when you have to unbalance her in some way.

There is no formula for success,

other than don't fail the tests.

This girl in the gym threw you a lifeline, twice by the sounds of it, and you

groped your way into drowning anyway.

But like I said, for some reason or other she's just not going to

come around.

She's not coming around because you're not giving her a reason to come around. You make

yourself too available. You get a hit that lands between two outfielders and then stop to gawk. You should be

running for first base.

Dude, spend time with other girls no matter how much it bugs you. Get off the

computer.

Don't get all cozy with her unless she's ready to cuddle in front of the fire.

You're not her

girlfriend. Stop trying to be. You don't see it that way, but she does.

DCW

02-26-2006, 07:36 AM

Dating & Relating

Body

language: 4 signs to decode it
By David Givens, Ph.D.

Your date's gestures can send you silent signals of

desire—or communicate a complete lact of interest. Do you know how to read the message in these moves? Can you tell

when someone is interested in you? Are you sure? Since no one likes to be rejected, it's a good idea to understand

the subtle signs of attraction (or lack thereof) before you launch yourself into the line of fire. As an

anthropologist who studies mating and dating rituals, I'll help you decode the top four body-language cues. Use

this information to either proceed with your flirtation—or flee with ego intact.

Before we get into the

specifics, know this: For all of our technological advances and psychological insights, when it comes to the silent

signs of sexual attraction, we are no different than beasts. For the past 500 million years, every member of the

animal kingdom has utilized certain signals to communicate their interest in mating. These boil down to the message:

"I am harmless; I won't bite." (Charles Darwin called these signs "submissive displays," because they make the

subject seem more approachable.) Seeing any one of them may signify physical attraction. Seeing all four at once is

compelling evidence that you are liked—and very possibly lusted after.

Signal 1: Lifted Shoulders
One of

the most easily detected signs of attraction is lifted shoulders. This motion indicates that a person has activated

what biologists call the "cute response," a bashful, almost childlike behavior that reveals a softer, more compliant

side. This is an emotional, involuntary muscular response to someone you like, and it has a universally disarming

effect. (It is also a natural response when you're oohing and ahhing over a puppy or cuddling with a baby.) In a

dating scenario, this unconscious movement tells you that the person you're interested in wants to get a little

closer—and that you shouldn't be shy.

Sign 2: Pigeon Toes
Pigeon toes may not sound like the sexiest of

gestures, but an inward rotation of the feet suggests definite interest. Anatomically referred to as "tibial

torsion," this toes-turned-in posture occurs when someone feels both smitten and somewhat intimidated by you. By

"shrinking" the body, the subject is creating a less threatening profile. Put simply, pigeon toes do for the body

what the smile does for the face. Both actions say: "If you approach, I won't snub you." Worth noting: In direct

contrast to pigeon toes is the more aggressive military posture. This toes-out, hands-behind-the-back posture is

reminiscent of soldiers at ease, and its aloofness should tell you that it's probably best to keep your distance.

Sign 3: The Palm Reveal
As you talk to your potential love interest, watch his or her hands.

Specifically, take note of whether the palms are facing upward, while gesturing or resting on a table. The brain is

programmed to perceive vulnerability and openness in this motion. In courtship, these gestures are psychologically

friendlier than palm-down cues. (Indeed, think about the downward hand motions that President Bush uses when talking

to the country about Iraq or that a grade-school teacher uses when trying to calm rowdy students. Not a maneuver

that communicates warmth and connection.)

Sign 4: The Forehead Bow
Your date has more than friendship in

mind if he or she uses the forehead bow. Here's the tell-tale gesture: The person tips the head slightly forward

and looks up at you from under the eyebrows. (Think of Lauren Bacall looking at Humphrey Bogart with her famous

come-hither look.) A fragment of the full-body bow, which is used in cultures around the world to show respect and

deference, this head motion and those bedroom eyes can indicate that you may not be very far away from an actual

bedroom. In direct contrast to this move is a posture of domination: A subtle tilting back of the head and casting

of a downward gaze. That look should tell you where you stand—and that, in fact, you should go stand elsewhere

because this individual is not a good prospect for love.

MOBLEYC57

02-26-2006, 08:42 AM

Signal 1:

Lifted Shoulders
One of the most easily detected signs of attraction is lifted shoulders. This motion indicates

that a person has activated what biologists call the "cute response," a bashful, almost childlike behavior that

reveals a softer, more compliant side. This is an emotional, involuntary muscular response to someone you like, and

it has a universally disarming effect. (It is also a natural response when you're oohing and ahhing over a puppy or

cuddling with a baby.) In a dating scenario, this unconscious movement tells you that the person you're interested

in wants to get a little closer—and that you shouldn't be shy.

Sign 2: Pigeon Toes
Pigeon toes may not

sound like the sexiest of gestures, but an inward rotation of the feet suggests definite interest. Anatomically

referred to as "tibial torsion," this toes-turned-in posture occurs when someone feels both smitten and somewhat

intimidated by you. By "shrinking" the body, the subject is creating a less threatening profile. Put simply, pigeon

toes do for the body what the smile does for the face. Both actions say: "If you approach, I won't snub you." Worth

noting: In direct contrast to pigeon toes is the more aggressive military posture. This toes-out,

hands-behind-the-back posture is reminiscent of soldiers at ease, and its aloofness should tell you that it's

probably best to keep your distance.

Thanks, DCW! :thumbsup:

Has anyone ever seen/noticed either of

those two? The lifted shoulders sounds kind of strange to me. :sick:

:think: Anyone? Anyone? :think:

girlnextdoor

02-27-2006, 03:16 AM

Very interesting DCW. I

love posts like these because they're so fascinating and teach a lot.

I find it surprising because as a woman

I've done those things a lot. It's scary how transparent we are, and it's not very comforting to know people can

read our feelings so exactly.

Mobley, I don't know if links are allowed, but the pigeon toe and shoulder lift

is quite subtle. Here are samples:

Shoulder lift:

http://www.apogee-studios.com/web

site/portrait_photos/images/Couple-004.jpg (http://www.apogee-studios.com/website/portrait_photos/images/Couple-004.jpg)

Pigeon Toe:

http://www.istockp

hoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/620391/2/istockphoto_620391_shy_legs.jpg (http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/620391/2/istockphoto_620391_shy_legs.jpg)

I wouldn't necessarily

associate it with love, because women seem to do that when awkward and shy in other situations too. But as far as

things go it's definitely a sign of nervousness.

I'm wondering if these same signs would be associated with

men as well?

CptKipling

02-27-2006, 11:48 AM

Links are allowed, just not to

other pheromone stores.

MOBLEYC57

02-27-2006, 04:20 PM

Mobley, I

don't know if links are allowed, but the pigeon toe and shoulder lift is quite subtle. Here are samples:

Shoulder lift:

http://www.apogee-studios.com/web

site/portrait_photos/images/Couple-004.jpg (http://www.apogee-studios.com/website/portrait_photos/images/Couple-004.jpg)

Pigeon Toe:

http://www.istockp

hoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/620391/2/istockphoto_620391_shy_legs.jpg (http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/620391/2/istockphoto_620391_shy_legs.jpg)

I wouldn't necessarily

associate it with love, because women seem to do that when awkward and shy in other situations

too. But as far as things go it's definitely a sign of nervousness.

I'm wondering if these

same signs would be associated with men as well?

Naughty ... always a pleasure! :trout: Oooops! You're

not her ... Thanks GND! :wave:

Men are much more easier to read IF they're interest ... just watch for the

drooling & eight-ball size eyes. :POKE:

MrPlayboy

03-01-2006, 01:51 PM

I have

noticed ladies yawning along with the other signs like leaning back in the chair,fidgeting etc when Im wearing

mones.It would go along with be relaxed right?

Also I have been hearing when a lady waves as she is saying hi

thats another sign have any of you heard or notice the same?

This word lady is most commonly

used by guys who have no game...all the players know what I'm talking about.

She has a vagina...that doesn't

mean she's automatically something to be reverred.

belgareth

03-01-2006, 02:08 PM

The word LADY is also used by

adults who waht to show a little courtesy or respect.

gaf

03-01-2006, 02:44 PM

This word lady

is most commonly used by guys who have no game...all the players know what I'm talking about.

She has

a vagina...that doesn't mean she's automatically something to be reverred.

But you forget that

the quickest way there is to show respect , sure some woman like to be treated like crap for some reason... but most

prefer you to show at least some respect.
I don't know of many woman that like to be called 'ho , slapper ,

bitch ,slut , etc. Well at least any that i might be interested in, it may be different in your part of the world

though.
:cheers:

Mtnjim

03-01-2006, 02:45 PM

What Bel said!!

MOBLEYC57

03-01-2006, 03:56 PM

What Bel

said!!

And again!

Guess that means we don't have game. :think: :blink::think:

Players ... do

yourself a favor ... make that pen and ink change ... t'would be for the better ... 'sides, like your middle

finger ... you don't have to always use it. :thumbsup:

phersurf

03-01-2006, 04:26 PM

This word

lady is most commonly used by guys who have no game...all the players know what I'm talking about.

She has a vagina...that doesn't mean she's automatically something to be reverred.

I agree with

this comment!

Women don't want to be treated with any more respect than you would treat a man.

They

don't want to be called ho, bitch or anything like that (although I've watched PUAs use this with the right

attitude and have quality women eating out of their hands), but they also don't want to be treated like

princesses!

When a woman says they want guys to be themselves, they're not talking about the way most guys

act around quality women. They don't want the needy, suplicating, nice guys that most men turn into! They want a

man to act like a man. They don't want him to hide that he is a sexual being (without being creepy).

I used

to be one of these guys. I used to think that by acting like a gentleman I'd be different than those guys that

wanted to just have sex with her, she'd see that difference and want to be with me. Yeah, right! What happened is

I'd turn into the friend that she would complain about her boyfriend to. Women would say to me, "I wish I could

find a nice guy like you". And I'd be thinking, "I'm right fucking here!"

I recently overheard a

conversation at a coffee shop between 2 very together attractive women and when one of them brought up a recent date

she had with a Dr. and described his behavior (which was typical nice guy behavior), they both were actually grossed

out!

The following happened just this last Saturday at a coffee shop on Melrose. I went in to get a cup of

coffee at about 6:00 PM. There was a very attractive woman (looked about 35) standing in line to pick up food to go,

but it looked like she might have been at the end of the coffee line.

Me – Are you in the line for coffee?

Her – No, I’m waiting for food to go.

Me – I’ve never eaten here before, what did you order?

Her – The "whatever" sandwich.

Me – Is it good?

Her – Yeah, it’s really good!

Me –

Great! I’ll be sitting over there (pointing to a table for 2), I can’t wait to try it!

Her – (stunned for a

second) You’re funny!

Me – (after a short pause, using an exaggerated tone of pity) Getting food to take

home on a Saturday night, how sad.

Her – (laughing) you’re horrible! I’m meeting some friends later!

Me – Don’t act so defensive. These friends, they wouldn’t be “The Desperate Housewives” would they?

Her – (laughing even harder, feigning anger and hitting me in the shoulder) what a tease! My name is Emily.

Me – My name is Dave.

Us – made some fluff talk for a couple of minutes (the usual stuff, jobs,

where we grew up, interests, etc). I hardly ever gave her a straight answer. I teased a little more.

Her –

(getting her food) here’s my email and phone number.

Me – Sure, I’d love to discuss your lack of social

life.

Her – (leaving with her food, holds up hand to head in “phone symbol” and mouths “call me”)

A

year ago, if anyone would have told me that I could have interacted with a woman (that previously I would have

considered out of my league) and created such strong attraction that she would have offered me her phone number, I

would have accused them of being nuts.

belgareth

03-01-2006, 04:44 PM

phersurf

03-01-2006, 04:49 PM

belgareth

03-01-2006, 04:52 PM

OK :) So, going back to the

original statement, calling a woman a lady is simply showing reasonable respect and is something we should all do

under almost all circumstances.

Perhaps I should add that I don't play games either. People can take me as I am

or not, I don't especially care.

tounge

03-01-2006, 05:04 PM

I agree with this

comment!

Women don't want to be treated with any more respect than you would treat a man.

They

don't want to be called ho, bitch or anything like that (although I've watched PUAs use this with the right

attitude and have quality women eating out of their hands), but they also don't want to be treated like

princesses!

When a woman says they want guys to be themselves, they're not talking about the way most guys

act around quality women. They don't want the needy, suplicating, nice guys that most men turn into! They want a

man to act like a man. They don't want him to hide that he is a sexual being (without being creepy).

I used

to be one of these guys. I used to think that by acting like a gentleman I'd be different than those guys that

wanted to just have sex with her, she'd see that difference and want to be with me. Yeah, right! What happened is

I'd turn into the friend that she would complain about her boyfriend to. Women would say to me, "I wish I could

find a nice guy like you". And I'd be thinking, "I'm right fucking here!"

I recently overheard a

conversation at a coffee shop between 2 very together attractive women and when one of them brought up a recent date

she had with a Dr. and described his behavior (which was typical nice guy behavior), they both were actually grossed

out!

The following happened just this last Saturday at a coffee shop on Melrose. I went in to get a cup of

coffee at about 6:00 PM. There was a very attractive woman (looked about 35) standing in line to pick up food to go,

but it looked like she might have been at the end of the coffee line.

Me – Are you in the line for coffee?

Her – No, I’m waiting for food to go.

Me – I’ve never eaten here before, what did you order?

Her – The "whatever" sandwich.

Me – Is it good?

Her – Yeah, it’s really good!

Me –

Great! I’ll be sitting over there (pointing to a table for 2), I can’t wait to try it!

Her – (stunned for a

second) You’re funny!

Me – (after a short pause, using an exaggerated tone of pity) Getting food to take

home on a Saturday night, how sad.

Her – (laughing) you’re horrible! I’m meeting some friends later!

Me – Don’t act so defensive. These friends, they wouldn’t be “The Desperate Housewives” would they?

Her – (laughing even harder, feigning anger and hitting me in the shoulder) what a tease! My name is Emily.

Me – My name is Dave.

Us – made some fluff talk for a couple of minutes (the usual stuff, jobs,

where we grew up, interests, etc). I hardly ever gave her a straight answer. I teased a little more.

Her –

(getting her food) here’s my email and phone number.

Me – Sure, I’d love to discuss your lack of social

life.

Her – (leaving with her food, holds up hand to head in “phone symbol” and mouths “call me”)

A

year ago, if anyone would have told me that I could have interacted with a woman (that previously I would have

considered out of my league) and created such strong attraction that she would have offered me her phone number, I

would have accused them of being nuts.

Sounds like this came out of the DeAngelo newsletter.

You wouldn't happen to be ole Dave now, would you?

phersurf

03-01-2006, 05:09 PM

Sounds like this

came out of the DeAngelo newsletter. You wouldn't happen to be ole Dave now, would you?

Nope, not

me!

I have read his stuff and have increased my success with women, though.

And yes, the first line is

David D, the rest was all me. Once I understood why his stuff works, I was able to integrate it and come up with my

own material.

THe biggest inprovement was when I worked on my inner game. No amount of tricks will work with

being congruent.

girlnextdoor

03-01-2006, 11:41 PM

This word

lady is most commonly used by guys who have no game...all the players know what I'm talking about.

She

has a vagina...that doesn't mean she's automatically something to be reverred.

I'll agree women

shouldn't be automatically revered.

But judging from your first comment, that's why players don't get the

real ladies. But I suppose whether she's a lady or not doesn't matter when all you're looking for

is pussy.

girlnextdoor

03-01-2006, 11:53 PM

]A year

ago, if anyone would have told me that I could have interacted with a woman (that previously I would have considered

out of my league) and created such strong attraction that she would have offered me her phone number, I would have

accused them of being nuts.

That was interesting! I couldn't tell what your tone was in that

conversation. Like most women, if it was me I would've ignored you if your tone was remotely creepy or rude. But if

it was humor then you'd be in.

Tickle a woman's sense of humor, and you're 90% of the way there.

Just

curiosity here, but that conversation, was it your "real" self, or was it a result of study and training

:rolleyes:

girlnextdoor

03-02-2006, 12:01 AM

Anybody

that thinks a real gentleMAN has to be needy or anything other than self assured and independent has no real

conception of a gentleman.

I am considered to be a gentleman, I'm courteous to everybody all the time, even

when I'm angry. I never lower my standards for anybody and will walk away from any woman that thinks I am going to

treat her like a princess or one who thinks I'm going to allow her to play games. I laugh, joke, tease or ignore

women...or men for that matter depending on what I want. That's not needy or supplicating in any way.

The

grovelling male who caters to a woman's every whim and tries to weedle her out of her panties is not a gentleman or

even a man by my standards.

Belgareth, you're the MAN. You're one of the very few guys here who

understands communication between the sexes.

Why is this so hard for men to understand? They think they need to

be grovelling wimps or alpha jerks to get women.

We want neither. Like you said, be nice and curteous, yet

don't let a woman walk over you. That's the only secret to getting a woman. And that's what women mean

when we say be yourselves. Men shouldn't change their personality or natural disposition because they think it's

what women want.

A real man should be gentle and nice, at the same time be able to stand up for themselves

without necessarily 'abusing' a woman to show his manliness.

All those stupid mags like Cosmo have ruined it

for us :blink:

DCW

03-02-2006, 06:55 AM

I think that what women "say they

want" and "what they desire" are two different things.
The will always say publicly that they want a nice guy who

is a "good man".
How many time have u heard “he is a very nice guy but” etc. etc.
The topic has been

discussed in length and the consensus is the nice guy trait doesn’t seem to be a positive virtue (sexual) with

today’s "modern woman".

DCW

belgareth

03-02-2006, 07:13 AM

It depends on how you define

'Nice Guy'. I still maintain that the wrong approach should be called wimp.

surfs_up

03-02-2006, 08:00 AM

this is

only in hardcover so far, selling like hotcakes at my local Barnes and Noble.... totally unlike any man-woman book

I've read....

Can be longish and maybe tedious in spots if this isn't your main interest, still should be

widely read.... heck, IS being widely read...

The author is a 100% lesbian... never bi in her life if I read

this right, who is also a writer (a good one at that) that sets out to know what it is like to be a man in the

USA...

So she disguises herself as a man and goes to all man places, like a monestary, or gnarly sex joints,

high pressure sales jobs, and yes, tries to pick up girls using the standard moves, so she can find out what it is

like for a guy to pick up girls in a hetero environment, then she tries online dating (she concludes that the dating

scene really IS as f*cked up as they say...) as a "guy"....

The book is Self Made Man by Norah Vincent, cost

about $25 in US$ ..... blows a lot of that Cosmo "all about guys" articles
lightweight trash to sorry little

bits...

It's not perfect... just one dyke's take on our bonejumping customs... you might learn something

from it, you might hate it... depends...

DCW

03-02-2006, 09:43 AM

Here is the answer

http://www.nomarriage.com/american.html.
A little extream

pehaps but a growing trend.

And no I don't find guys who are polite, gracious and attentive

"WIMPS".
Maybe the brain washing have crossed over the gender lines.

DCW

belgareth

03-02-2006, 09:59 AM

Sounds a bit bitter to me. Some

portion of that is probably reasonable but not all by any measure.

I wonder what the comparable list of male

demands is?

surfs_up

03-02-2006, 10:13 AM

The

combination of contrasts is what makes for an interesting personality.

A man, a woman, anybody who is only

one thing is tedious as hell to be around... their balancing factors have to come from external

sources...

Women who can be raunchy and opinionated when that is appropriate, or be polite and empathetic

when THAT'S called for, and know how to elegantly manage their behaviors are a blast to be around.

My

current GODDESS is the comedienne Kathy Griffin.... what an outrageous babe...!!!!! I am surfeited with

concupiscence and I want her ass too!

That women can get away with murder, the things that come out of her

mouth just blow my mind.... and then she's a sweeet innocent thing in the blink of an

eye......

http://www.kathygriffin.net/

Oh Lord give me a woman with a sense of humor like

that!

DCW

03-02-2006, 10:19 AM

phersurf

03-02-2006, 10:19 AM

That was

interesting! I couldn't tell what your tone was in that conversation. Like most women, if it was me I would've

ignored you if your tone was remotely creepy or rude. But if it was humor then you'd be in.

Tickle a

woman's sense of humor, and you're 90% of the way there.

Just curiosity here, but that conversation, was

it your "real" self, or was it a result of study and training :rolleyes:

My tone was obviously

teasing. There is no way it could have been taken as anything but. She was laughing the whole time. She's a quality

woman, she's a partner in an interior design company as well as being very attractive. She would have blown me off

if I was rude.

It's the "real me" now. A year and half ago it wouldn't
it have been, but I've

integrated it and it's become the real me.

Let me ask you something. When you put on a sexy dress that

accentuates your curves , heels to accentuate your legs, makeup to accentuate your lips and make you eyes look

bigger, etc, to attract men, is that the real you?

DCW

03-02-2006, 10:21 AM

The combination of

contrasts is what makes for an interesting personality.

A man, a woman, anybody who is only one thing is

tedious as hell to be around... their balancing factors have to come from external sources...

Women who can

be raunchy and opinionated when that is appropriate, or be polite and empathetic when THAT'S called for, and know

how to elegantly manage their behaviors are a blast to be around.

My current GODDESS is the comedienne Kathy

Griffin.... what an outrageous babe...!!!!! I am surfeited with concupiscence and I want her ass too!

That

women can get away with murder, the things that come out of her mouth just blow my mind.... and then she's a sweeet

innocent thing in the blink of an eye......

http://www.kathygriffin.net/

Oh Lord give me a

woman with a sense of humor like that!

Is that why she is in Divorce court?
Maybe her soon to

be EX hubby can shed some insight.

DCW

belgareth

03-02-2006, 10:34 AM

Yeah it's bitter I

agree, but look at the inflated divorce rate and yes some men are at fault.

As for a comparable list of male

demads, its quite simple.

1. A lady in the street and a whore in the bedroom.

DCW
I figure men

are at fault about half the time. I certainly contributed to the issues that created my divorce. But, over all I

think its a societal problem in how we choose partners and how we regard our commitments.

Let's add a couple

more to the list.
2. Intelligent
3. Able to carry on a conversation in greater depth than the current hair or

clothing styles.
4. A mind of her own
5. Attractive to me
6. A good sense of humor
7. Honesty and integrity
8.

Likes the outdoors
9. Tolerates my pigheadedness
10. Doesn't take herself to seriously
11. Spends less time

putting on makeup than I spend showering, shaving and getting dressed.
12. Doesn't play dominance games

I'm

sure I could add more and it's likely you could too.

Gegogi

03-02-2006, 07:04 PM

...but look at the

inflated divorce rate and yes some men are at fault. I don't think divorce is a matter of fault but a

matter of human nature. After all, marriage is an artificial social construct, the details of which vary greatly

across time and from culture to culture. Evolution did not design humans to mate for life nor be monogamous. Sure a

few can do it but they're the excepton rather than the rule.
Women who can be raunchy and opinionated when

that is appropriate, or be polite and empathetic when THAT'S called for, and know how to elegantly manage their

behaviors are a blast to be around. The same can be said of men. In fact, all sucessful humans manage their

behaviors and persona for maximize sucess in life. You'll have serious problems if you're an ass or nice guy all

day everyday. You need to be able to turn it on and off at will as appropriate.

surfs_up

03-02-2006, 09:34 PM

The same can be said of

men. In fact, all sucessful humans manage their behaviors and persona for maximize sucess in life. You'll have

serious problems if you're an ass or nice guy all day everyday. You need to be able to turn it on and off at will

as appropriate.

It seems like most of us are too stuck in one mode or another, mainly because we're

plugged into narrow contexts of work, family, necessary crap when we'd rather be elsewhere.... major behavioral

flexibility is a bigtime skill, the bigtime players defintely have it in corporate land, media land, any place

personal and political chops intersect... to us peons they just look phony, to their own thinking they're just

being skillfully adaptive.

girlnextdoor

03-02-2006, 11:19 PM

My tone was

obviously teasing. There is no way it could have been taken as anything but. She was laughing the whole time. She's

a quality woman, she's a partner in an interior design company as well as being very attractive. She would have

blown me off if I was rude.

It's the "real me" now. A year and half ago it wouldn't
it have been, but I've

integrated it and it's become the real me.

Let me ask you something. When you put on a sexy dress that

accentuates your curves , heels to accentuate your legs, makeup to accentuate your lips and make you eyes look

bigger, etc, to attract men, is that the real you?

I would definitely say no. Which is why I'm not much

into all that stuff. Maybe I'm odd, but I feel like that's cheating. Look at celebrities. They more gorgeous they

are the harder they fall when "stripped" of their makeup. I find natural makeup-less women much more beautiful.

But I guess that begs the question of what's real? Like how you integrated the new approach to make it your "real

you", would a woman be considered real if she integrated all that stuff into her daily life?

Interesting stuff.

I guess it depends on how you view the world.

girlnextdoor

03-02-2006, 11:26 PM

Gegogi

03-02-2006, 11:30 PM

major behavioral

flexibility is a bigtime skill, the bigtime players defintely have it in corporate land, media land, any place

personal and political chops intersect... to us peons they just look phony, to their own thinking they're just

being skillfully adaptive.
Everybody does it at one level or another. It's really not phony if you're

sincere. Most folks behave differently infront of their children, friends, boss or lover. Think about the odd

behaviors we exhibit infront of the police officers or lawyers. It's called behaving appropriately for any given

situation. Those that lack these skills have trouble in life. Those that demonstrate unusual skills in this area get

along with all sorts of people, opening a world of experience most others miss.

surfs_up

03-03-2006, 08:10 AM

generally I see that people are contextually skillful in their life slots... what they define as their life slot or

even their "self" is really a function of their skill set... the problem that we typically face is that our limited

slot is also our comfort zone... to step outside of that means learning to function well in a state of discomfort.

Interesting/cool/attractive people, to me at least, have a greater capacity to be uncomfortable, possibly

they don't perceive being emotionally uncomfortable as a threat to their identity or sense of self...

Which

is useful, because the discomfort zone is also the green growth shoot of the mind. Sometimes you might have this

unsettling experience when you approach someone who is a little ahead of you in their life slot, and you're

accelerating, they're just maintaining a constant velocity, and for a while you're up to speed in their slot, then

you find yourself still growing past their slot, and there's this strange feeling of what was once familiar

becoming unfamiliar again, departing the old familiar galaxy with all of its' rituals...

MrPlayboy

03-03-2006, 04:42 PM

I agree with

this comment!

Women don't want to be treated with any more respect than you would treat a man.

They don't

want to be called ho, bitch or anything like that (although I've watched PUAs use this with the right attitude and

have quality women eating out of their hands), but they also don't want to be treated like princesses!

When a

woman says they want guys to be themselves, they're not talking about the way most guys act around quality women.

They don't want the needy, suplicating, nice guys that most men turn into! They want a man to act like a man. They

don't want him to hide that he is a sexual being (without being creepy).

I used to be one of these guys. I used

to think that by acting like a gentleman I'd be different than those guys that wanted to just have sex with her,

she'd see that difference and want to be with me. Yeah, right! What happened is I'd turn into the friend that she

would complain about her boyfriend to. Women would say to me, "I wish I could find a nice guy like you". And I'd be

thinking, "I'm right fucking here!"

I recently overheard a conversation at a coffee shop between 2 very

together attractive women and when one of them brought up a recent date she had with a Dr. and described his

behavior (which was typical nice guy behavior), they both were actually grossed out!

The following happened

just this last Saturday at a coffee shop on Melrose. I went in to get a cup of coffee at about 6:00 PM. There was a

very attractive woman (looked about 35) standing in line to pick up food to go, but it looked like she might have

been at the end of the coffee line.

Me – Are you in the line for coffee?

Her – No, I’m waiting for food to

go.

Me – I’ve never eaten here before, what did you order?

Her – The "whatever" sandwich.

Me – Is it

good?

Her – Yeah, it’s really good!

Me – Great! I’ll be sitting over there (pointing to a table for 2), I

can’t wait to try it!

Her – (stunned for a second) You’re funny!

Me – (after a short pause, using an

exaggerated tone of pity) Getting food to take home on a Saturday night, how sad.

Her – (laughing) you’re

horrible! I’m meeting some friends later!

Me – Don’t act so defensive. These friends, they wouldn’t be “The

Desperate Housewives” would they?

Her – (laughing even harder, feigning anger and hitting me in the shoulder)

what a tease! My name is Emily.

Me – My name is Dave.

Us – made some fluff talk for a couple of minutes

(the usual stuff, jobs, where we grew up, interests, etc). I hardly ever gave her a straight answer. I teased a

little more.

Her – (getting her food) here’s my email and phone number.

Me – Sure, I’d love to discuss

your lack of social life.

Her – (leaving with her food, holds up hand to head in “phone symbol” and mouths

“call me”)

A year ago, if anyone would have told me that I could have interacted with a woman (that previously

I would have considered out of my league) and created such strong attraction that she would have offered me her

phone number, I would have accused them of being nuts.

Thank you, I knew there were some real players

who can tell it like it is.