Turning friends into lovers...

[got phero?]

Eh

everyone,

Well a female friend and I have been getting pretty close over the last little while. From the outside

you might even say we're dating, just without the kissing and the sex. A few of our mutual friends have told me

that we'd be perfect for one another, and naturally I'd like to bridge the gap so to speak from friends to

something more. The problem is we're housemates, and if she wasn't interested, things could become awkward for

obvious reasons.

I usually wear a few dabs of NPA, SoE and A1, whenever I know she's ovulating, which tends to

get her a little hot and bothered. She becomes quite flirty, but whenever I go on the offence or try to get closer,

she likes to playfully push me away/ punch me, giggles a lot, and likes to continuously tease me. But that's all it

ever seems to be, one big tease. She knows that I have other prospects out there, and I've stayed well away from

the "nice guy" persona to avoid LJBF land.

The annoying thing is whenever I go out at night or don't tell her

what I'm up to, she desperately needs to know where I went or who I was with. And when I don't tell her, she needs

to know even more. But when I give her my full attention and spend time with her, she tends to be a little prissy,

pays less attention towards me. I think she enjoys knowing she could have me whenever I'm around, but becomes much

more interested in me when she knows she can't have me or I'm not spending time with her.

So I was wondering

if the forum could share any advice or stories of how they turned a friend into something more. I'd be open to any

advice the women in the forum have too. Thanks.

[belgareth]

Pull away a little in your

daily life. She's got control of the situation now. When you pull back, have other things to do she starts noticing

and needs to know where you are and what you are doing. Be nice about it but let her know that her position is as a

friend but she can change it when she wants to cut the games. You may blow it completely but right now your letting

her play a game with you.

[surfs_up]

this is where good quality people reading skills come in very handy, and why you need

them more, dramatically so, when you start to play with pheromones... once the pheros kick in it looks to me like

more layers or aspects of naive others in the vacinity (naive in the technical sence, they don't know about the

extra pheromones) open up and become available to those others. Where you have been used to dealing with one more or

less straight line of communication you may have two or three "conversations" going on through unconscious signaling

systems and it will become your job to sort them out. Pheromones are great starters but they aren't good managers,

it's like having a star sales team and the order fulfillment and service crew you hope will do justice to the sales

department. I often work with beautiful, ambitious, gifted young women where my job is to both be deliberately

provocative to bring out a strong performance and at the same time fully respectful of their boundaries, I think the

most important thing for them is that they know that I have a high concern for the integrity of their boundaries and

I'll never try and break them down "for their own good" (which can be the biggest line of self serving bullshit

used by manipulative freaks in more than one industry)... if I sense resistance or discomfort it goes better if I

start asking a lot of questions about her values, interests, hopes, what motivates her, and a picture develops of

who she thinks she is, what her real self image is like, not her facade she's putting on for her intended

professional life, and then, OK, how can we co-operate and do something good just on the safe side of the line...

[tim929]

Yeah,Belgareth is right on that

one.It would seem that she is interested but she wants you to make her work for it alittle.She,like many women

subconsiously understands that she is in the position of power and influence,and as a result she can play this

little game till the cows come home.Pull away alittle bit and make her come to you and you will probably begin to

see her building the bridge instead of having to do all the work yourself.

The one mistake that you want to

avoid though is the one I make all the time and have seen so many other men make.Dont ever stop making her work

alittle.As soon as she senses that she has you and there will be no struggle,she will begin to stop working at it

and ultimately begin to pull away,causing you to start chasing again and as a result driving her further away.Always

remember to have YOUR OWN LIFE!Something that will keep her interested in maintaining the relationship and not

reject it because you are trying to hard.

I dont completely understand why women seem to need that sort of drama

in a relationship to be happy but having seen it so many times there is an overwhelming body of evidence to indicate

that as soon as you stop running,she will start going the other direction.You dont have to be a jerk about it,and

you dont have to run that hard.But women are happy when they are trying to keep up with you rather than being

smothered.And if you are chasing her it will turn her off.Men with a life and a direction of thier own are sexy.Guys

that chase a girl to the ends of the earth are seen as needing to get a real life.

As for pheromones,they are a

very interesting way to spice things up and get alittle better position.They might also help with occasional use to

keep things in the bedroom interesting.

[Gegogi]

I dont completely

understand why women seem to need that sort of drama in a relationship to be happy
It vaildates them,

tests your grit and I think many woman actually enjoy the game. It's sort of like the cat that hunts a little bird,

catches it, tortures a bit and turns it loose only to be pounced on again. Guys have their own stupid rituals so I

think the games between the sexes are pretty even steven.

Incidentally your housemate certainly has a lot

more to loose thah a normal dating situation if things go south. She has to be very sure as she's stuck with you at

home and might have to quickly move... I've had flings with housemates and they never lasted very long and it was

soon too awkward to stay.

[tounge]

Let me just put your situation

bluntly. Your balls are firmly in her hands. It will be interesting to see if you can get them back and use them on

someone else. Also, you need to move out of the living situation you are in. The sooner the better.
Nothing more

really needs to be said. It is entirely up to you when the necessary and much needed changes are to be made.

[hatch]

My only comment is this. If

she's a very good friend, imagine your life completely without her in it....no friends, no hanging out, nothing.

My reason for this, my last relationship was with my best friend of almost 7-8 years. We felt so good being around

each other that we thought dating would be the right next step. It was fun for a short time, but then the

boyfriend-girlfriend roles seem to be a little more prevalent. From here it was a downward spiral and we eventually

broke it off mutually. Since then, we rarely speak. I do regret pursuing this relationship. That's my 2 cents

worth.

[Holmes]

Sounds like some nasty dynamics have already set in - and they're virtually impossible to reverse.

Once this girl's got your balls in that vice, the only direction is tighter (clockwise, if I recall).

I beg

you...move away...and save the children.

[got phero?]

I'll admit we've had some

good times, but lately I've become really annoyed with these back and forth games (ie, one moment she's super

flirty, ice queen the next). I've already decided on living somewhere else when I come back to school next year and

she knows that. Six months ago, I'd be more concerned about ruining a friendship, but she's changed a lot since

then. I'm almost at the point where I'd either want to have a relationship with her, or get away from her

entirely. She's got an amazing body so I wouldn't mind a romp in the hay, and if anything else developed, bonus.

But if it didn't work out, at least it would have been fun fooling around with her.

Thanks for the advice

guys, please keep it coming! I'd really appreciate hearing more about your past experiences and stories of friends

becoming more.

[tounge]

She's got an

amazing body so I wouldn't mind a romp in the hay,



Nough said. I suspected this when I

read your initial post. Believe me pal, no amazing T&A is worth your self respect.

[catlord17]

Nough said. I

suspected this when I read your initial post. Believe me pal, no amazing T&A is worth your self

respect.

On this point I have to concur.

I have noticed that women seem to like men who couldn't

care less. It's basically a black or white situation - either you're in the pilot's seat, or she is. So the

obvious solution would seem to be that you simply stop playing her game. Then you have control, and since you

"don't care", she would probably go bonkers for you.

Then again, I'm not able to see all the particulars of

the situation.

But I would definitely stop playing her game.

[Gegogi]

I have noticed that women

seem to like men who couldn't care less.
I'm sure this is true from time to time--I've seen dippy bimbos

in action. Nevertheless, my personal experience is real women are attracted to a confident, strong and intelligent

man. When he shares a like attraction to her she goes bunkers and they share the magic and responsibilty of the

relationship. Indifference doesn't encourage intimacy very long and certainly such game playing makes a man seem

rather immature (read: high school mentality). When I was young and stupid I used to act like a player, can get

anyone I want so I don't give a damn about you type and found it quicky scared off women of substance. I realize I

was merely insecure and trying to act like a man but was actually a frickin' dickhead.

It's basically a

black or white situation - either you're in the pilot's seat, or she is.
Now this just ain't so. It's a

normally gray situation with both parties fully involved. If it is totally black 'n white the relationship is on

unequal footing and bound to quickly fail. Sheesh, it's not about one or the other fighting for control. A

friendship that blossoms into a romance is all about equal respect and adoration. If the friendship is real, you

have already established a basic mutual trust and emotional affinity, so you should be able to talk openly. If it

was me, I'd talk to her directly and put it all on the table.

Incidentally, most of my extended relationships

began as friendships. It's a very comfy transition. Unfortunately when the relationship goes south, most women

don't seem to be able to return to the friendship phase.

[catlord17]

Well put, Gegogi. I concur on

both points. However, a woman who plays games is not what I would consider a "real woman". Such a woman is,

indeed, trying to gain control; that is usually the point of mind games. Given this, shades of gray really don't

make sense. It's a control game, and such games aren't played to compromise. Otherwise, why play at all? Why

not just approach it with compromise in mind, and throw the games out the window? If the game is for control,

compromise is probably the last thing she's interested in.

I also agree that communication is the best

solution. I'm just used to seeing a lot of these women who like to be emotionally mistreated act this way, and the

only way to "succeed" with them seems to be to give them what they want. (For instance, I've lost a number of

girlfriends because I refused to treat them poorly.) I don't think playing their games is worth while, and nobody

said he had to be emotionally abusive by not playing her game.

It seems to me that you are approaching this

from a much more mature point of view than she probably is, Gegogi. It sounds like she is in her teens or twenties.

Usually, women get tired of these games in their thirties, from what I have seen.

[chicago]

1. Unfortunately, once a woman

has "made up her
mind" about a guy, it's usually VERY difficult to
change her mind.

2. It's difficult to

un-do one of these situations
once it has reached this point. Don't try to un-do it. Just get on with
your life

and quit obsessing over her.


3. Women act on emotion and intuition more than
men. They don't do the "logical"

thing as often as
men.

4. If you're in a situation like this where a
woman has said "I only like you as a

friend", then
you're best off going out and meeting some other
women and getting on with your life

IMMEDIATELY!
Don't wait. Get on with it.

5. If you disappear from HER life, then turn up a
month or two

later... and you're dating a few
other attractive women... she might see you in a
new light. Jealousy is a VERY

powerful motivator to women
and this is often what it takes to get a woman to
see you in a new

light.
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Gegogi]

Sounds to me like she is testing

and/or confused and has not made up her mind. It appears from Mr. Got's post she is emotionally bonded to him. And

emotional involvement runs deeper and is more significant than mere physical entanglements. I've had similar

situations happen a number of times. You don't plan or expect it to happen. In fact, it's not supposed to happen

between housemates, coworkers, etc. so you try to ignore it. However an emotional attachment grows over time and

increasingly creates tenison until something happens. Often one or more of the involved are in denial over the

deepening attraction and emotional bond. Accepting the evolving relationship can be pretty tough with a roommate

situation.

Incidentally I've had many woman tell me they want to be friends. Often it means they want to fuck

you with no strings attached, e.g., friends with benefits, or it means they have a husband or BF and have difficulty

admitting they want to fool around. I've rarely found it to mean you suck as a man so get lost. Of course you gotta

hold up your end of the deal or end up as a dickless running dog.

[surfs_up]

pitch her a jaw dropping proposal, you, her and Maximus the german shepard.... cover yourself from head

to foot in NPA and ask her how she feels about dogs, big masculine dogs...

Seriously folks...

You guys

are going around in circles because neither one of you is calling the head game and breaking out of it. Time to

disrupt the status quo. Pour a bucket of vomit over her head.

One guy who I respect on the subject of

negotiations said that the best negotiating tool was the true willingness to get up and leave the table and not turn

around and walk back into the room. If you KNOW you can leave without the deal all the rest of the tactics don't

mean crap. I walked out in the middle of a thing once, the girl had one idea of what it was all about and I didn't

share that... I was grooving on her on one level and getting pissed off on another one. I told her plain and simple

I was going to leave her and she laughed at me, she ran her usual line of crap the next day, and by that evening I

told her to go take a flying leap into the septic tank... no big scenes, not heavy emotion, only this is wack jive

and have a nice day.... yeah she had awesome tits, smart as anybody you'd meet, and no common sense about how to

have a balanced relationship, as in "what have you done for me, lately ? ".....

The BIG thing you MUST watch

out for is that your pheromones that you apply to yourself will have a greater effect on YOU that you may realize

because you think if you are conscious of them, thet means they won't be working on you and distorting how you

perceive the interaction... you may easily be under the influence of your own stuff, and have attached feelings to

this realtionship that you otherwise might not have... that's happened to me at least twice, and even more

confusing is if you are together with a high level of pheromones, your realting can build an internal momentum that

can continue even if you are not wearing any, a natural dynamic will evolve....

I would strongly suggest that

you use no pheromones, none whatsoever, and bathe thoroughly before seeing her, for at least one month, and see how

the energy goes from there.

[got phero?]

That's an interesting

suggestion Surfs_up, but she was a flirt/ tease well before I ever purchased pheromones. A few of my friends have

told me that she does tend to lead me on a bit, so I know I'm not imagining it.

I would agree with Gegogi on

the subject of "grey area" in terms of control. There are lots of times when I feel there's a mutual respect, or a

balance of some kind. At other times I may feel like I'm completely in the drivers seat, which is usually

accompanied with confidence. I just need to watch out whenever she's wearing a push-up bra and a tight pair of

jeans. She's the type that knows she's hot, and knows how to put out a little cleavage. Interestingly enough after

all the talk about T&A, it's her eye's that I find most attractive.

Last night I came home late from an

evening out, wearing my usual combo and axe as a cover scent. Within a few minutes she was in my room asking me

where I'd been and I simply acted calm and cool, yet didn't disclose where, or what I'd been up to. Afterwards,

she came in and out of my room often, telling me about her day, giggling and fidgeting at times. It's quite easy to

tell when she wants attention, but I stayed firm and kept most of my attention on my books. Her eye's were fully

dilated so I knew she was somewhat excited to see me.

I can't go out every night though, so I've decided I'm

going to pull back a little, and hopefully let her bridge some of the gap. How did you do it Gegogi? Did any of the

women you were friends with make the first move? Would any of the women in the forum care to comment?

[DUKE3100]

Back in the day I use to always

find myself in these predictiments. One story I have for you that really sticks in my mind was this very game

orientated fox girl who had been playing with me for months. I knew enough not to show her my cards and to play the

game with her at first but I wasnt skilled enough at the time to be able to win at the game against her superior

skills. Being the niave guy I was back then I finally decided to force the issue. I wrote her a poem note

(HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and came to her dorm late at night to meet with her. Things had really been heating up and I

thought this was my chance. I gave her a hug and she kept looking at me and giving me these signs (that i was too

niave to pick up on). I left content to have her read the poem that had my true feelings...my plan....for us to

become lovers and roll off into the sunset like wild horses. Needless to say things didnt go down that way. Now

there is a moral to this story besides the fact I use to be a hopeless romantic moron with a poor game. The moral is

in what she told me much later...months after I gave up on her romantically for withdrawing from me after my poem.

She said "You know the last boyfriend that I had slowly played with me for months and chased me for months and

finally after the anticipation had built he just kissed me and that is how it all started. Obviously you were not

interested in me as much as you thought you were. If you had been then we would probably have made a great couple"

At the time I thought she was crazy....I still kinda do....Why the hell would I put months and months of effort for

no gain into a girl when there are plenty of others out there for me to get with much less effort????? The funny

thing.... is that the answer to that question from a females perspective is exactly the reason why they do what they

do....I dont think they do it consciously but that it is interwoven deep in the DNA. Moral of the story?? If she is

worth it to you than you will play the game with her...but make sure you know what the game is...how to play

it....and how to read in between the lines. She will thank you later. One more thing though....I hope you have not

acted like her girlfriend and if you have you are in for a steep climb my friend.

[tounge]

For cryin out loud people. This is

real simple.
Our boy here really wants to tap into that "Amazin" body of his roomie. He ain't crankin that

fine, delectable, honey pot. He is frustrated. This little sweetie knows this, therfore his sack is firmly ensconced

in her hot little hands; that are attached to that "AMAZIN" body of hers. Best of luck Bud. I'm out of this one.

[gamecity]

Let her go....... get her out

of your mind. Do it for a month or so.
Talk and flirt with her again after a couple of months and see if the

situation changes. If it doesn't then move on and find someone else.

She likes being chased, and the attention

that you are giving her. It makes her feel wanted, and somewhat pretty. You are boosting her ego too much.
You like

being the hunter. You like the chase. You like to chase pretty girls and you think about the wonderful reward that

you will get when you caught her.

So give it a month or so. Forget about her. You need to keep in mind that

there are plenty of girls in the sea. There are other pretty girls out there.

[DUKE3100]

For cryin out

loud people. This is real simple.
Our boy here really wants to tap into that "Amazin" body of his roomie. He ain't

crankin that fine, delectable, honey pot. He is frustrated. This little sweetie knows this, therfore his sack is

firmly ensconced in her hot little hands; that are attached to that "AMAZIN" body of hers. Best of luck Bud. I'm

out of this one.

If this is whats going on then I agree with him....good luck. If you are coming across

like you want and need it....you have broke rule number 1...time to tone up your game if this is the case.

[Kardz]

Eh everyone,



Well a female friend and I have been getting pretty close over the last little while. From the outside you might

even say we're dating, just without the kissing and the sex. A few of our mutual friends have told me that we'd be

perfect for one another, and naturally I'd like to bridge the gap so to speak from friends to something more. The

problem is we're housemates, and if she wasn't interested, things could become awkward for obvious reasons.

I

usually wear a few dabs of NPA, SoE and A1, whenever I know she's ovulating, which tends to get her a little hot

and bothered. She becomes quite flirty, but whenever I go on the offence or try to get closer, she likes to

playfully push me away/ punch me, giggles a lot, and likes to continuously tease me. But that's all it ever seems

to be, one big tease. She knows that I have other prospects out there, and I've stayed well away from the "nice

guy" persona to avoid LJBF land.

The annoying thing is whenever I go out at night or don't tell her what I'm

up to, she desperately needs to know where I went or who I was with. And when I don't tell her, she needs to know

even more. But when I give her my full attention and spend time with her, she tends to be a little prissy, pays less

attention towards me. I think she enjoys knowing she could have me whenever I'm around, but becomes much more

interested in me when she knows she can't have me or I'm not spending time with her.

So I was wondering if

the forum could share any advice or stories of how they turned a friend into something more. I'd be open to any

advice the women in the forum have too. Thanks.

She's testing you. Most women play games or test to

some degree. And like Belg and i'm sure other's have said, she is in control. You give your power away. You need

to play the game like she is. Not "let her play games". Be mysterious and playful about it.

It sounds like you

already understand the dynamics of it asking us here on the boards. She's more interested when you have the power

and are being secretive, and less when you give her what she wants and aren't playing the game with her.

Play

the game.

Ryan

[belgareth]

Yes, she's in control. But the

idea is to stop playing the game. So long as you play games, she will too. Surfs up made a remark about being

willing to walk away from the table, that's the right attitude. Don't try to control her but don't let her

control you either. If she wants to play games you walk away every time. That doesn't apply to just this situation,

it applies to everyday life and every relationship.

There are a lot of good women out there that aren't into

playing games. When you play games with them, they'll walk away from you. As a matter of fact, the majority of the

good women aren't interested in games. They are interested in having a good relationship with a caring man who can

stand up for himself but can still treat a lady like a lady. As people get older they tire of the games and you'll

find fewer and fewer are willing to put up with it.

[Kardz]

Nah, trust me. It's all a game,

and a test. All women do it to test if your the real deal or "just a friend".

She plays the game, you play the

game. It's about power and men that have power are attractive.

Being ready to walk away at any time, I agree,

that's a good mindset. It represents power, that you can take it or leave it at any point.

Me and Belg might

have different perceptions of what "games" are.

But you saw the interest level sky rocket when you played coy

and didn't give her what she wanted.

Keep your power. Tease her back, it'll amplify the attraction. And when

your in control, not giving her what SHE wants, she'll come to you.

If you've read any of David D's books or

studied his material, or talk to anyone that has, they'll agree with me. And it's true.

And when you have your

AE/A1/SOE or whatever you mentioned above on when she's ovulating, that's prime time to take it to the next level.

Until then, just work it.

Ryan

[DUKE3100]

Yes, she's in

control. But the idea is to stop playing the game. So long as you play games, she will too. Surfs up made a remark

about being willing to walk away from the table, that's the right attitude. Don't try to control her but don't

let her control you either. If she wants to play games you walk away every time. That doesn't apply to just this

situation, it applies to everyday life and every relationship.

There are a lot of good women out there that

aren't into playing games. When you play games with them, they'll walk away from you. As a matter of fact, the

majority of the good women aren't interested in games. They are interested in having a good relationship with a

caring man who can stand up for himself but can still treat a lady like a lady. As people get older they tire of the

games and you'll find fewer and fewer are willing to put up with it.

OMG!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE

KIDDING ME!!!! are you kidding??? Look man I have been with a lot of women in all different status and stages. I

have also done the whole happy couple lets get a house lets get married and have a baby thing too. I have been with

women who I thought were "different" and just like the women you describe. I thought that they did not play games.

Your passage makes me lose tremendous respect for you Bel because it shows just how much of a dream world you live

in. I cant blame you though because every time I have been with a girl and really loved and cared for her I thought

she was the girl that didnt play games. NEWSFLASH.....ALL GIRLS PLAY GAMES. Its in their nature and its in their

genes. They manipulate you to get all sorts of things in a relationship or not in a relationship. Thats what girls

do. I am not saying its a bad thing but to say that most girls are not interested in playing games is a very niave

comment. Everyone plays games to a certain degree. It doenst have to be premeditated or on purpose. Women like

emotion and they like to feel. They like drama. They are fickle...this naturally causes them to do things that do

not make sense. Its in their biological make up. You act like a big science guy....man you disappoint me here Bel.

Course I can totally understand being in love and being happy and being in that place where you are right now and I

cant knock you for that. She seems very intelligent and I am sure you are a great couple and their is good reason

for your insanity.

[DUKE3100]

Nah, trust me.

It's all a game, and a test. All women do it to test if your the real deal or "just a friend".

She plays the

game, you play the game. It's about power and men that have power are attractive.

Being ready to walk away at

any time, I agree, that's a good mindset. It represents power, that you can take it or leave it at any point.



Me and Belg might have different perceptions of what "games" are.

But you saw the interest level sky rocket

when you played coy and didn't give her what she wanted.

Keep your power. Tease her back, it'll amplify the

attraction. And when your in control, not giving her what SHE wants, she'll come to you.

If you've read any

of David D's books or studied his material, or talk to anyone that has, they'll agree with me. And it's true.



And when you have your AE/A1/SOE or whatever you mentioned above on when she's ovulating, that's prime time to

take it to the next level. Until then, just work it.

Ryan

Yea see all three of us have a different

perspective on what the game is. Bel is hopefully referring to the games that girls play that are nasty and selfish

games. Ryan is talking about pre-meditated games. I think there are plenty of girls who play pre-meditated games and

I try to keep away from those. All girls play games however.

Girls are in a very challenging position in our

world. They have to bare our children and carry them for 9 months. Its not like she is a guy who can have three

different ex-girlfriends with his kids (an extreme example but it happens). Not only that but women are now expected

to work too! To top it all off they are overly emotional creatures and have hormone fluctuations that you and me

would probably go insane if we got them. They are biologically programmed to try to seek out the true man that can

take care of them and provide for them and be in it for the long haul to help take care of the child. On top of this

they live in a society where the trend is for guys to act more like girls and not be masculine. Their DNA and

biological make up is to weed through the weak pathetic man and find the real man. Someone who is not only masculine

but also for real and not a two timer.

How can you expect it to be any other way?? They have to play games!

Thats just the way it is. If you dont want to enjoy the thrill of the chase and the game with them....than you are

not worth their time! period. If you want the girl you will play the game. Part of the game is TO WALK AWAY AND TO

SHOW THAT YOU DO NOT NEED HER THAT YOU ARE HAPPY AS A MAN AND YOUR HAPPYNESS DOES NOT DEPEND ON HER....Sometimes the

only way to win a womens heart is to be willing to lose it. Why would you want someone who doesnt want you anyways

....right?You need to be a man and take control and be in control of this without being controlling...get it? If

she can frustrate you and cause you to give up than you are not worth her time. She usually doesnt play games on

purpose...its a part of being a female.

[Gegogi]

How did you do it Gegogi?

Did any of the women you were friends with make the first move?
Hmm, a lot of the posters are taking this

situation far too seriously. This is not war and it is not a balls-to-the wall scenario. Nobody is emotionally

invested enough to drive off a cliff if things go south. It is a little crush between roomates.

Back in the

day the woman dropped hints and tried to entice you. Nevertheless, she expected the guy to make the first physical

move. She appears to be giving you clear signals and it's your turn. As a college student I was really shy and slow

to the draw but I managed to figure it out once she dropped from the ceiling and bit me on the ass. Nowadays it

depends so you gotta go with the flow. My last two GFs were in their early to mid-20s and were much more physically

aggressive than women I used to date. Both beat me to the punch. I guess they were tired of waiting for me to grab

them after I mercilessly teased them and enticed them for weeks. I can enjoy it both ways so it's all

good.

As for my long term friends that turned into lovers, it was pretty mutual as we evolved into it

together. Just remember if she is a really good friend, sadly, you'll probably have to say bye-bye forever when you

break up. Most women don't take prisoners when they move on.

[tounge]

Where the hell do get you the

thought that she has a crush on him. I'd bet even dough that some stud is laying the pipe to her at this very

moment.

[belgareth]

OMG!!!!!!!! YOU

HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! are you kidding??? Look man I have been with a lot of women in all different status

and stages. I have also done the whole happy couple lets get a house lets get married and have a baby thing too. I

have been with women who I thought were "different" and just like the women you describe. I thought that they did

not play games. Your passage makes me lose tremendous respect for you Bel because it shows just how much of a dream

world you live in. I cant blame you though because every time I have been with a girl and really loved and cared for

her I thought she was the girl that didnt play games. NEWSFLASH.....ALL GIRLS PLAY GAMES. Its in their nature and

its in their genes. They manipulate you to get all sorts of things in a relationship or not in a relationship. Thats

what girls do. I am not saying its a bad thing but to say that most girls are not interested in playing games is a

very niave comment. Everyone plays games to a certain degree. It doenst have to be premeditated or on purpose. Women

like emotion and they like to feel. They like drama. They are fickle...this naturally causes them to do things that

do not make sense. Its in their biological make up. You act like a big science guy....man you disappoint me here

Bel. Course I can totally understand being in love and being happy and being in that place where you are right now

and I cant knock you for that. She seems very intelligent and I am sure you are a great couple and their is good

reason for your insanity.
News flash...Not all girls...correction...not all WOMEN play the tpe games you

were refering to. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe you've been unlucky but whatever the case, you're flat wrong! As

I've got older fewer want to play games but it has never been all who wanted to play. Maybe my refusal to play is

the reason, I really don't know or care but I do know that I don't play and will not tolerate games from any woman

or any person. I walk away every time. To me, the games are all about dominance and control. I'm not going to try

to dominate anybody and do not allow others to dominate me. If a woman isn't interested in a relationship on those

terms I'm not interested in her. Could it be that we hunt in different grounds and the mentality is different where

I hunt?

I grew up with several sisters, one was a year older than me and one was a year younger. I saw and heard

a lot of that nonsense growing up and didn't like it much. Maybe that makes the difference in how I deal with

women.

As for losing your respect for stating something that seems rather obvious to me, oh darn. :frustrate My

experience isn't just recent nor is it a result of Wood Elf, it's worked that way for me likely since before you

realized their was a difference between girl people and boy people. :rofl: Honestly, if its insanity, it sure beats

the reality a lot of you guys have choosen.

[got phero?]

Well Tounge I'm not entirely

sure if she has a crush on me or not, but then again I probably wouldn't be talking about it on the forum if I knew

for sure. We are close though. But I know for certain there isn't some "stud laying the pipe to her". In fact she

hasn't seen anyone for at least six months. She doesn't date, and she hardly ever goes out. You might say she's a

bit of a prude. On the other hand, sometimes I'd say she's sexually frustrated and just needs a good lay.



Even if she is playing games, and I'll admit from time to time I think she does, It doesn't mean I've lost all

control. Whenever she gets all dolled up and shifts into prissy mode, I keep my distance/ do my own thing. And the

moment I think she's just looking for some quick attention, I don't have a problem with saying no, or walking

away, which I often do.

[tounge]

Well Tounge I'm

not entirely sure if she has a crush on me or not, but then again I probably wouldn't be talking about it on the

forum if I knew for sure. We are close though. But I know for certain there isn't some "stud laying the pipe to

her". In fact she hasn't seen anyone for at least six months. She doesn't date, and she hardly ever goes out. You

might say she's a bit of a prude. On the other hand, sometimes I'd say she's sexually frustrated and just needs a

good lay.

Even if she is playing games, and I'll admit from time to time I think she does, It doesn't

mean I've lost all control. Whenever she gets all dolled up and shifts into prissy mode, I keep my distance/ do my

own thing. And the moment I think she's just looking for some quick attention, I don't have a problem with saying

no, or walking away, which I often do.



Hey, I didn't say she had a crush on you. The

Hawaiian dude did. It's obvious that she likes you, but just as a friend. She does not see you in a romantic light.

You need to get out of that situation. The frustration you're going through has got to be hell.

And as far

as her not being with any other dude. I've known more than a couple of women whose husbands thought they were as

faithful as the Mother Superior of a Convent. They were SHOCKED to find out other wise. I'm working on a plain

speaking male-female relationship book. It is probably still a couple of years from publication. But you may find it

useful someday. The title is "HER GAME<---->YOUR BALLS".

[surfs_up]

games. Just possibly that translates into high self

esteem/positive self image games.... that's when you can be playful, fair, and brutally honest without feeling like

dirty shit is being run on you. Met a gal recently, we can say anything straight to each other's face and be dead

serious about it and laugh about it at the same time. When you're not "protecting", covering up your own hidden

stuff, the feeling of freedom is incredible... low self esteem/poor self image games happen when you're trying to

extract something from the situation on the un-level.... I pretend to be this and you pretend to be that because it

hurts too much to admit what we really see in ourselves, as long as you're doing that you're not working through

the truth, you're working against it.

[belgareth]

games. Just

possibly that translates into high self esteem/positive self image games.... that's when you can be playful, fair,

and brutally honest without feeling like dirty shit is being run on you. Met a gal recently, we can say anything

straight to each other's face and be dead serious about it and laugh about it at the same time. When you're not

"protecting", covering up your own hidden stuff, the feeling of freedom is incredible... low self esteem/poor self

image games happen when you're trying to extract something from the situation on the un-level.... I pretend to be

this and you pretend to be that because it hurts too much to admit what we really see in ourselves, as long as

you're doing that you're not working through the truth, you're working against it.

You've got it

except that isn't games, it's honesty. And it is very liberating to just be who and what you are.

[DUKE3100]

News

flash...Not all girls...correction...not all WOMEN play the tpe games you were refering to.

As for losing your

respect for stating something that seems rather obvious to me, oh darn. :frustrate My experience isn't just recent

nor is it a result of Wood Elf, it's worked that way for me likely since before you realized their was a difference

between girl people and boy people. :rofl: Honestly, if its insanity, it sure beats the reality a lot of you guys

have choosen.

Hmmmm....somebody seems a little too worked up dont you think?? I am not sure what your

definition of games is Bel but it certainly is not my definition. You are out of your mind if you think there are

girls that dont play games. Any time a women takes an action or says something in order to get a desired responce

that is in her head and not direct....it is a game. The whole nature of how women communicate is in riddles and

games. I dont care how old you are or what experience you think you have. In my book you are niave. Here is a

newsflash for you Bel: The reason women tend to play games less frequently the older they get is because they get

older and want to settle down so they have to settle for someone who doesnt know how to turn them on. Theres a

newsflash for you. They end up settling. They like a mature guy that is stable and trustworthy as a backup...that

turns them on too....its not a total package but it is something to settle for. Women are biologically turned on by

personality and attitude and confidence and flair and a guy who can understand and flirt and play with them and pass

their tests and games and riddles. Guys are attracted to women biologically predominantly for their looks...but soon

learn that looks are not everything and try to control their urges for the hot young girl. Thats why these young hot

girls play more games and are harder to get....because they can have what they want on their terms. So go off and

live in your little dreamworld Bel....I hope you live happily ever after bud...since your such a pro and think you

know everything my guess is that you will eventually struggle..... Here is a little advice for you: Girls hate know

it alls. I am just pointing it out. SO dont get mad at me when I call you on the fact that you are living in a dream

world. I'm Out.

[catlord17]

Here's what I would

do.

I'd lay it on the table. "You seem to like me, and I seem to like you, so if you want to be more than

friends, say so and we'll take it from there."

Boom. Problem solved.

Of course this is a logical approach

that makes sense, so if these guys are right, it might not work.

[belgareth]

You have a very limited and

narrow vision of the world. What you said above applies to a percentage of women and men. I don't argue that at

all. However, I'm smart enough to know that even the very best of psychologists and behavoirists know that they

cannot make all encompassing statements like yours and expect them to hold. That's why they continue to study human

behavoir, because they don't know all the answers.

Worked up? I was making a joke! I tried to make that plain

through the little pictures, sorry if you missed it.

[DUKE3100]

games. Just

possibly that translates into high self esteem/positive self image games.... that's when you can be playful, fair,

and brutally honest without feeling like dirty shit is being run on you. Met a gal recently, we can say anything

straight to each other's face and be dead serious about it and laugh about it at the same time. When you're not

"protecting", covering up your own hidden stuff, the feeling of freedom is incredible... low self esteem/poor self

image games happen when you're trying to extract something from the situation on the un-level.... I pretend to be

this and you pretend to be that because it hurts too much to admit what we really see in ourselves, as long as

you're doing that you're not working through the truth, you're working against it.

I totally agree

with this right here....totally. Its the immature and insecure and bs games I dont tolerate and there are high class

and low class games and games with good intentions and bad intentions and selfish intentions. There are games that

are subconscious and conscious...you just gotta know how to play and which games to play and when to walk away. If

it becomes clear that this girl is playing dirty just move on. My guess is that if you are trying to get your girl

roomate then you are pritty hard up and girls pick up on that...and are not attracted to it.

[DUKE3100]

Here's what I

would do.

I'd lay it on the table. "You seem to like me, and I seem to like you, so if you want to be more than

friends, say so and we'll take it from there."

Boom. Problem solved.

Of course this is a logical approach

that makes sense, so if these guys are right, it might not work.

Women 101 = NEVER SAY WITH RATIONAL

WORDS ANYTHING LIKE THIS! Wow thats bad advice. You will surely solve your problem if you do this....you wont have

one because you will have burned your bridge.

[DUKE3100]

You have a

very limited and narrow vision of the world. What you said above applies to a percentage of women and men. I don't

argue that at all. However, I'm smart enough to know that even the very best of psychologists and behavoirists know

that they cannot make all encompassing statements like yours and expect them to hold. That's why they continue to

study human behavoir, because they don't know all the answers.

Worked up? I was making a joke! I tried to make

that plain through the little pictures, sorry if you missed it.

I know you were joking....so was

I....thats why I used the term "worked up" and made it a question. I also picked up that you were mad at my responce

though. You know what your problem is? You cant even tell when a guy is joking around...how the hell can you pick up

on the games girls play with you! lol....its not that there are tons that dont play games...its that their games go

right over your head. It all makes sense to me now!! Your an uptight dude arent you? You should think about yoga or

something.

[DUKE3100]

Ok I am going to try to explain

something to everyone that I read in a book about psychology and evolution that makes a lot of sense. This is only a

theory but it makes complete sense. Humans have three brains that have evolved over time.

The first and most

primitive was from way way back before humans even existed and it is similar to what animals have. It's function is

simply to keep you breathing and walking and your heart beating and your eyes blinking...all the unconscious stuff.

The second part of the brain that we developed later on is responsible for our subconscious thoughts and emotions.

Some animals have this part functioning as well (dogs and cats for instance). This part of the brain explains why

when someone cuts you off in the road you get sudden road rage that comes from nowhere and this is responsible for

lust and attraction and being turned on.

All the uncontrollable emotions stem from this and a big part of it is

subconscious. When a hot girl has got you all nervous and speechless this is the emotional part. When you are still

in love with your hot ex-girlfriend who you know is a hopeless alcoholic and who is nothing but trouble...but you

still are turned on by her and miss her and want her....that is this part of the brain. This is the part of the

brain that draws women to stay with boyfriends that beat her and are horrible for her.

The final part of the

brain is the rational one. This is the latest brain to develope and only humans and maybe dolphines have it. This is

right and wrong good and bad and societal norms. This is what keeps you from walking up to that hot babe who happens

to be your boss and asking her out. This is what keeps couples that are unhappy together and keeps the unhappy guy

or girl from cheating on her husband/wife....until it fails.


See while we would like to think our rational

thoughts are under control...sometimes they are not. You can relate to this for any time an emotion took over and

made you do something that you later deemed stupid and dumb. This is all evolution people and guess what? The

emotional brain has been around longer and is a bigger part of your brain. We keep it in check yes but this is the

part of a womens brain that wants a man to be a real man and not a sissy.

This is the biological part that

responds differently depending on the sex. For guys it is mainly on looks and for girls it is mainly on personality.

If you can learn to appeal to both brains you can have fun with a lot of women.

Its not enough to be the nice

good rapport friendly guy who doesnt play any games with any girl. It may be enough for now....in the end it is

about appealing to both brains. Being a somewhat safe and respectable guy who takes care of her but also being that

sexy mans man that her emotional brain responds to. If appealing to both of these needs is "playing games" and too

much trouble....than the only long run game you will be playing is peekaboo with your winkie. Class dismissed.

[DUKE3100]

You have a

very limited and narrow vision of the world. .

Why is that Bel? Because I disagree with you??

[catlord17]

Women 101 =

NEVER SAY WITH RATIONAL WORDS ANYTHING LIKE THIS! Wow thats bad advice. You will surely solve your problem if you do

this....you wont have one because you will have burned your bridge.

How is it bad advice? It's

effective communication. I just cut through months and years of bullshit.

This is not bad advice at all. It's

just going to have a different effect depending on the type of woman. I personally don't like playing games. I

have too much to do to spend time playing games. And, I like women who can think. So it makes perfect sense to

approach the situation this way for me. The result is that I end up with intelligent, left brain oriented types,

who are mature enough to want the games out of the way.

In other words, it works beautifully for the type of

woman I am interested in attracting.

My way is not necessarily going to be the right way for anyone else,

naturally.

[DUKE3100]

[QUOTE=catlord17]How is it bad

advice? It's effective communication. I just cut through months and years of bullshit.

it makes perfect sense

to approach the situation this way for me. The result is that I end up with intelligent, left brain oriented types,

who are mature enough to want the games out of the way.

In other words, it works beautifully for the type of

woman I am interested in attracting.
[QUOTE]

Ok first off please dont take offense to my comment it wasnt

aimed personally at you...its just my opinion and I am sure there are plenty that would agree with me that it is a

very poor strategy to show your interest in a girl by rationally explaining it to her and asking her to go along.

Women are emotional not rational. To make them want you you must make them feel not make them think. If women were

to only use rational thought as their reasoning they would all be lesbians and never take a second look at a guy

again. Now be honest with me here Cat....do you have a girlfriend? If you do did you say "Hello Jane you know I

would like to be more than friends with you. I say that starting at noon tomorrow we try kissing and see how that

goes...would you be my girlfriend?....In fact cat can you honestly tell me that you find your suggested method to be

effective over the many alternatives or even on an even playing field?

I can certainly relate with your

comment that you behave in a manner that will attract the type of girl you are looking for....but if you are looking

for a rational girl that you can talk into being your girlfriend instead of your roomate (This persons situation)

than you must spend a lot of nights alone with your winkiepoo.

[Gegogi]

"This is the biological

part that responds differently depending on the sex. For guys it is mainly on looks and for girls it is mainly on

personality. If you can learn to appeal to both brains you can have fun with a lot of women."
Our own Mr.

James V. Kohl disagrees with the above premise.

"...the only means by which the visual, social and

intellectual environment can biologically interact with behavior, is via a neuroendocrine (e.g., hormone) response.

Pheromones directly elicit this neuroendocrine response; no other sensory input from the social environment does

this."
I personally believe attraction occurs on several levels, e.g., visual, lifesytle, personality and

pheromones. Our brains somehow sort out the information and decide on a course of action. Occasionally I've been

crazy attracted to women I really didn't find physically pleasing. The sound of their voice, persona and, I'm

sure, pheromones make me want to drop to my knees, stick my nose firmly in their snatch and make babies. So I'm

attracted and replused at the same time. Hopefully I won't meet this woman when three sheets to the wind...

[Bruce]

Guys,

After reading all this

I am overwhelmed with the desire to talk privately to the girl and find out what the heck is *really* going on in

her mind and emotions. Seems to me, y'all are just guessing based on your own experience of this *type* of

situation. In a perfect world, all our man here would have to do is ask her himself, but 9 times out of 10 he

wouldn't get a straight answer these days. Myself, I would ask her anyways. Then.... if she is that wonderful 1

in 10 (that may be overly optimistic) who knows what the heck she is feeling and wanting.... AND if she is honest

about it.... AND she is interested in romance with me.... then we are good to go.

B

[DUKE3100]

I personally

believe attraction occurs on several levels, e.g., visual, lifesytle, personality and pheromones. Our brains somehow

sort out the information and decide on a course of action.

I think you may have totally misunderstood

the whole thing. I couldnt possibly cover everything so maybe its just not enough information....but all the things

you mention belong to each of the three brains. Visual would appeal to the emotional and the thinking brain.

Lifestyle would appeal to both brains. Personality would appeal to both brains. and Phermones appeals to the

emotional/subconscious brain. These are vague descriptions though Gegogi. Personality is complex. A deep slow and

erotic voice as part of a personality traite would stimulate the emotional brain for a women in contrast to a geeky

fast speaking voice. Where as something like intelligence tends to mostly appeal to the thinking brain. I hope this

makes things more clear....

[DUKE3100]

Guys,

After

reading all this I am overwhelmed with the desire to talk privately to the girl and find out what the heck is

*really* going on in her mind and emotions. Seems to me, y'all are just guessing based on your own experience of

this *type* of situation. In a perfect world, all our man here would have to do is ask her himself, but 9 times out

of 10 he wouldn't get a straight answer these days. Myself, I would ask her anyways. Then.... if she is that

wonderful 1 in 10 (that may be overly optimistic) who knows what the heck she is feeling and wanting.... AND if she

is honest about it.... AND she is interested in romance with me.... then we are good to go.

B



Perfectly explained Bruce....the odds certainly are not favorable. However I urge everyone to please keep in mind

that just as Bruce said...we all speak based on our own experiences in life and in the end all of the advice in the

world doesnt matter....its what you want to do. Most people simply have to learn things the hard way....on their

own....and find what works best for them. I try to study this stuff and practice this stuff as much as I can. I

always take the things that have the best odds. I definately think at the end of the day you gotta stay true to

yourself and try to use your behavior to draw out the type of girl you are looking for. However just because a girl

is complex and emotional and confused a lot of the time does not mean she is not the right one for you. Sometimes

you gotta try to take approaches that are sensitive to a womens emotional makeup.

[oscar]

Here is a little

advice for you: Girls hate know it alls. I am just pointing it out.

And who better to point this out.



Oscar

[Gegogi]

Actually not. I wasn't confused

nor did I disagree. I'm aware of the theory of interconnected deep brain structures. And, duh, intelligence and

lifestyle appeal to the rational brain while pheromones work on an older part of the brain. Nevertheless, after all

that good information you spoiled it by stating for men the main biological motivation is visual. There's a lot

more to it than visual.

[catlord17]

[QUOTE=catlord17]How is it bad advice? It's effective communication. I just cut through months and

years of bullshit.

it makes perfect sense to approach the situation this way for me. The result is that I end up

with intelligent, left brain oriented types, who are mature enough to want the games out of the way.

In other

words, it works beautifully for the type of woman I am interested in attracting.
[QUOTE]

Ok first off please

dont take offense to my comment it wasnt aimed personally at you...its just my opinion and I am sure there are

plenty that would agree with me that it is a very poor strategy to show your interest in a girl by rationally

explaining it to her and asking her to go along. Women are emotional not rational. To make them want you you must

make them feel not make them think. If women were to only use rational thought as their reasoning they would all be

lesbians and never take a second look at a guy again. Now be honest with me here Cat....do you have a girlfriend? If

you do did you say "Hello Jane you know I would like to be more than friends with you. I say that starting at noon

tomorrow we try kissing and see how that goes...would you be my girlfriend?....In fact cat can you honestly tell me

that you find your suggested method to be effective over the many alternatives or even on an even playing field?



I can certainly relate with your comment that you behave in a manner that will attract the type of girl you are

looking for....but if you are looking for a rational girl that you can talk into being your girlfriend instead of

your roomate (This persons situation) than you must spend a lot of nights alone with your winkiepoo.

No

offense taken. In fact, I got a good laugh out of your last response.

Let me say that I do have a girlfriend,

and I got her by waiting after class for her to come out one day and saying that I thought she was really a

beautiful woman, and I would like to get to know her better. I was simply open and honest with her, gave her respect

and reasonable space, and I had her giving me her phone number in about 5 minutes. After I got home from work, I

called her up (the very same day) and asked her out on a date for that very same night. And we have been together

for three years now.

By the way, she's about as far from a logical thinker as they get. I just can't get past

that "I love her" thing. But when I asked her out, I basically said exacly what I suggested. "It's obvious that you

like me, and I like you too, so if you're interested in being more than friends, just say so and we'll take it

from there."

It worked, by the way.

See the difference? I didn't walk up to a stranger and act like Mr.

Spock. It doesn't work blind, but it does work if you know when and how to use it. Pretty much just like anything

else.

It doesn't work allthe time, and it doesn't work on every woman... but I don't always use that

technique, either. I just prefer it because it cuts out the BS. I don't like games or BS. With me, what you see is

what you get.

If he has this situation with a girl who is a roommate, and he wants to make her a lover, I think

the best solution is to communicate effectively. Games only screw that up.

[surfs_up]

often for long periods of time without any idea about how to sort them

out... that may not be a deliberate game, as in a judo move to trap you or push you off balance, maybe just that

several values, interests, needs all turned on and they don't easily share the same space in her head or your

head.

girl and me are having a bite at sandwich place: she says something kinda romantic provocative and a

li'l bit sultry

me: "ummmm, yeah, sure, you're sorting out some stuff"

she: "oh, I didn't mean it

like that"

me: " no, it's cool, you're testing some thoughts on yourself right now, ok by me"...

The

message from me to her is that it is OK to give me the full range of all the stuff she's thinking, she doesn't

have to edit her thoughts to what she thinks I want to hear, so she doesn't have to be so perfect or self

controlled, and she'll cut me the same slack to be myself... putting on an act is so damn exhausting and worse than

that, boring as hell.

[DUKE3100]

And who better to

point this out.

Oscar

You got me their Oscar....you got me good!! I learned that lesson the hard way

as you might imagine. lol

[DUKE3100]

[QUOTE=DUKE3100][QUOTE=catlord17]How is it bad advice? It's effective communication. I just cut

through months and years of bullshit.

it makes perfect sense to approach the situation this way for me. The

result is that I end up with intelligent, left brain oriented types, who are mature enough to want the games out of

the way.

In other words, it works beautifully for the type of woman I am interested in attracting.


No

offense taken. In fact, I got a good laugh out of your last response.

Let me say that I do have a girlfriend,

and I got her by waiting after class for her to come out one day and saying that I thought she was really a

beautiful woman, and I would like to get to know her better. I was simply open and honest with her, gave her respect

and reasonable space, and I had her giving me her phone number in about 5 minutes. After I got home from work, I

called her up (the very same day) and asked her out on a date for that very same night. And we have been together

for three years now.

By the way, she's about as far from a logical thinker as they get. I just can't get past

that "I love her" thing. But when I asked her out, I basically said exacly what I suggested. "It's obvious that you

like me, and I like you too, so if you're interested in being more than friends, just say so and we'll take it

from there."

It worked, by the way.

See the difference? I didn't walk up to a stranger and act like Mr.

Spock. It doesn't work blind, but it does work if you know when and how to use it. Pretty much just like anything

else.

It doesn't work allthe time, and it doesn't work on every woman... but I don't always use that

technique, either. I just prefer it because it cuts out the BS. I don't like games or BS. With me, what you see is

what you get.

If he has this situation with a girl who is a roommate, and he wants to make her a lover, I think

the best solution is to communicate effectively. Games only screw that up.

My last real serious

girlfriend lasted about 5 years and if I was to write a similar post about her and how I got her it would be almost

identical to yours. That being said your approach was very classy and smooth and thats why it worked. This is a

different situation though. This guy lives with her and they are friends. It is much different. I honestly wish

things could be simple with women in a way that made sense to us guys....sadly its just not the case fella's. If

any of you have truely honestly found a women that is rational and logical and who does not play any games....and

you have been with her and been married to her and you are happy and not getting divorced....than you are very rare

and lucky people. Thats all I gotta say bout that!

[catlord17]

[QUOTE=catlord17][QUOTE=DUKE3100]

My last real serious girlfriend lasted about 5 years and if I

was to write a similar post about her and how I got her it would be almost identical to yours. That being said your

approach was very classy and smooth and thats why it worked. This is a different situation though. This guy lives

with her and they are friends. It is much different. I honestly wish things could be simple with women in a way that

made sense to us guys....sadly its just not the case fella's. If any of you have truely honestly found a women that

is rational and logical and who does not play any games....and you have been with her and been married to her and

you are happy and not getting divorced....than you are very rare and lucky people. Thats all I gotta say bout

that!

You know, communicating effectively means that both parties understand one another. It doesn't

mean that just because a left brain thinker is a left brain thinker, s/he should approach a right brain thinkerwith

left brain communication styles!

In order to communcate with a right brain thinker, you have to speak their

"language". Logic is as alien to emotion as light is to darkness. So whichever you happen to be, you have to find

a way to get your point across in the other person's "language". My way isn't the only way, and isn't right for

every situation. But I still believe that guessing at what eachother wants and is doing is just a waste of time

destined to cause more problems than it solves. There are ways to ask what she's really thinking without going

outside how she thinks.

[DrSmellThis]

News

flash...Not all girls...correction...not all WOMEN play the tpe games you were refering to. Maybe I've been lucky

or maybe you've been unlucky but whatever the case, you're flat wrong! As I've got older fewer want to play games

but it has never been all who wanted to play. Maybe my refusal to play is the reason, I really don't know or care

but I do know that I don't play and will not tolerate games from any woman or any person. I walk away every time.

To me, the games are all about dominance and control. I'm not going to try to dominate anybody and do not allow

others to dominate me. If a woman isn't interested in a relationship on those terms I'm not interested in her.

Could it be that we hunt in different grounds and the mentality is different where I hunt?

I grew up with

several sisters, one was a year older than me and one was a year younger. I saw and heard a lot of that nonsense

growing up and didn't like it much. Maybe that makes the difference in how I deal with women.

As for losing

your respect for stating something that seems rather obvious to me, oh darn. :frustrate My experience isn't just

recent nor is it a result of Wood Elf, it's worked that way for me likely since before you realized their was a

difference between girl people and boy people. :rofl: Honestly, if its insanity, it sure beats the reality a lot of

you guys have choosen.I fully understand that games seem like they're everywhere; and they probably are

mostly everywhere in certain settings/situations, especially bars and clubs.

But there is a certain level

you can go to, where you as a man can just determine that you are Master of your Sexuality Reality, :D and

refuse to respond to, or participate in games.

Today I saw an attractive young hippyish women at an essential

oil store who had played me for attention in the past. I was just real with her, reasonably open, but not making any

effort to give her attention, flirt or win her attention. I just was myself, and approached everything with a blank

slate in my mind, tuning myself only to what seemed to be real; and real responses. Why? I have been happy with the

reality of my interactions lately, and was just flat not interested in anything else for my world. She was probably

puzzled by me, and was struggling to read something into my presentation. In response she became extra "queenly" (if

you understand this term), as if to gain control over me regardless of whatever persona she thought I was putting

on. Only it wasn't a persona. It was just me; and I really didn't give a rat's @$$ how she felt about me,

even though I had in the past. It was a feeling of strength for sure. I sensed that I was completely floating above

her manipulations, and could just observe them. I was operating in a different universe from her, and this is what

it is in a sense.

You find that you are not alone in that universe. When you do this, you will find more women

who aren't into games either, or at least one that will make you stop looking (unless you still want to play more

games).

That is because women cannot afford to play games forever. They'd be screwing themselves. Maybe they

find lots of attractive men by playing games, but ultimately they need more than playing games can reliably get

them. They can't get a great, fulfilling, forever relationship by bullshitting around. If I can offer a woman that,

which is not easy to find, she is an idiot not to drop the games.

Your substance "trumps the game", melts through

it, and brings an end to it. It takes two. Experience helps.

[DrSmellThis]

Hmmmm....somebody seems a little too worked up dont you think?? I am not sure what your definition

of games is Bel but it certainly is not my definition. You are out of your mind if you think there are girls that

dont play games. Any time a women takes an action or says something in order to get a desired responce that is in

her head and not direct....it is a game. The whole nature of how women communicate is in riddles and games. I dont

care how old you are or what experience you think you have. In my book you are niave. Here is a newsflash for you

Bel: The reason women tend to play games less frequently the older they get is because they get older and want to

settle down so they have to settle for someone who doesnt know how to turn them on. Theres a newsflash for you. They

end up settling. They like a mature guy that is stable and trustworthy as a backup...that turns them on too....its

not a total package but it is something to settle for. Women are biologically turned on by personality and attitude

and confidence and flair and a guy who can understand and flirt and play with them and pass their tests and games

and riddles. Guys are attracted to women biologically predominantly for their looks...but soon learn that looks are

not everything and try to control their urges for the hot young girl. Thats why these young hot girls play more

games and are harder to get....because they can have what they want on their terms.Please see my above post,

brother man.

The "real" women I have in mind are not so much settling as getting exactly what they want in terms

of their priorities. I am turning my girlfriend on more than she ever has been precisely because of our multiple

depths of connection (e.g., I'm in tune with her emotions, etc.). This is not a strange phenomenon. Even your

pheromonal exchanges are related to multiple levels of your personality and hers. A real, deep, multilevel

connection is extremely sexy. When you have this a woman's games are humbly melted away, and she is essentially

"powerless to resist."

While many women tend to play games you can ultimately set it up so they can't get away

with that with you, and therefore only leave room for a certain kind of behavior.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

[tim929]

Ya know what...why dont we all

just get dogs and call it good enough?

[DrSmellThis]

Guys,

After

reading all this I am overwhelmed with the desire to talk privately to the girl and find out what the heck is

*really* going on in her mind and emotions. Seems to me, y'all are just guessing based on your own experience of

this *type* of situation. In a perfect world, all our man here would have to do is ask her himself, but 9 times out

of 10 he wouldn't get a straight answer these days. Myself, I would ask her anyways. Then.... if she is that

wonderful 1 in 10 (that may be overly optimistic) who knows what the heck she is feeling and wanting.... AND if she

is honest about it.... AND she is interested in romance with me.... then we are good to go.

BGentlemen,

this is an example of someone who seems not to play games. There is a certain childlike genuineness to this

approach, and the right woman cannot resist that (think about it -- women love the honesty of kids and can't resist

it). BTW, Bruce has a very hot wife. Do you think this was an accident?

Now, I've had this approach

"fail" (or "succeed in a negative way") any number of times. But even the game playing woman who turns this approach

(if made in a healthy way) down, will often feel a twinge of humility in the face of it, and know she is just not

ready for that mature level of relating with you at this time. The power ultimately sides with reality and

truth.

But the only way you can have this power is if you too are honestly rejecting game playing for yourself,

and are emotionally mature enough. Why do you think people tend to meet that special someone when they are truly

ready? There is a level where it's not rocket science, and actually makes sense. It does happen all around us, and

yet a bit of faith is required when it hasn't happened to you.

[DrSmellThis]

I try to

study this stuff and practice this stuff as much as I can. I always take the things that have the best

odds.This is a key difference. I used to believe in playing the odds.

Not any more.

That has to do

with what I'm looking for. What you can seek, if you choose, is one person who is the best, by your best,

real, honest definition. A person you will love so much you won't want to leave them behind.

The method for

doing this is very different from the method for seeking high numbers of attractees to choose "the best" from. Get

the difference? It is a logical error to think you can substitute the latter method for the former.

This is

what "pick up artists" do not understand. Take it from someone who may have already slept with more women than

the historical Casanova (of course it's easier nowadays), and yet has been frustrated most of his

life.

Recently, maybe a month ago, I wrote about this in more detail.

[belgareth]

I know you were

joking....so was I....thats why I used the term "worked up" and made it a question. I also picked up that you were

mad at my responce though. You know what your problem is? You cant even tell when a guy is joking around...how the

hell can you pick up on the games girls play with you! lol....its not that there are tons that dont play games...its

that their games go right over your head. It all makes sense to me now!! Your an uptight dude arent you? You should

think about yoga or something.
From an arrogant clown who doesn't have the first clue what he is talking

about. You babble about science on this forum and tell us how what you think is the absolute word of science when it

is no more than an unsupported theory based on a few thin facts. Where's the peer review? The contradictive

evidence and how is it addressed? There's a whole long list of questions a real scientist would ask.

You give a

great example by completely misreading me. Or is a personal attack your answer when you don't get your way? You've

shown just how little you understand about human nature and reading people a couple times in that paragraph. What a

joke!

[DUKE3100]

Ok I am going

to try to explain something to everyone that I read in a book about psychology and evolution that makes a lot of

sense. This is only a theory but it makes complete sense. Humans have three brains that have evolved over time.




This is the opening paragraph to my science post that I wrote above Bel. I am not sure how I can be

any clearer than that to explain it is only a theory. I wont even address the rest of your tone because it speaks

for itself. I will say that you define arrogance. You should lighten up. Good luck my friend

[DUKE3100]

Nevertheless,

after all that good information you spoiled it by stating for men the main biological motivation is visual. There's

a lot more to it than visual.

Yes there is more to it than visual. I have learned not to go by looks. I

test a woman for other qualities that are more important to me rationally in my thinking part of the

brain.
However visual is the main stimuli. Why do you think that women spend so much time making themselves look

Gorgeous? When is the last time you saw some young guy with a lady in her 40's or 50's?? I never have and if you

have I am sure its rare. Now.....how many times do you see an older man with a younger women.....a lot more common.

I think I may be on to something here Gegogi....but I appreciate your comments regardless.

[belgareth]

If you acknowledge it's only a

theory you should listen to other's opinions instead of completely dismissing them and attempting to belittle them.

Many of us have experiences that run counter to your theories. That does not make us stupid or unobservant, as you

keep implying. It simply means we have experiences you aren't accounting for. Denying them is poor science, no

matter how you feel about it. I am not the one who is claiming my explanation is the only right one, you are. I

readily admit that there are multiple possibilities. You should learn to open your mind to possibilities other than

your own interpretation.

[DUKE3100]

This is a

key difference. I used to believe in playing the odds.

Not any more.

That has to do with what I'm looking

for. What you can seek, if you choose, is one person who is the best, by your best, real, honest definition.

A person you will love so much you won't want to leave them behind.

The method for doing this is very different

from the method for seeking high numbers of attractees to choose "the best" from. Get the difference? It is a

logical error to think you can substitute the latter method for the former.

This is what "pick up artists" do

not understand. Take it from someone who may have already slept with more women than the historical Casanova (of

course it's easier nowadays), and yet has been frustrated most of his life.

Recently, maybe a month ago, I

wrote about this in more detail.

I think you are right. I feel a little emptier now that I am playing

the field. However I keep the faith that I will meet the right person. I have experienced the type of relationship

you talk about for a 5 year duration. Now its over and I simply have not healed enough yet to have it in me to go

looking for it again. Especially after slowly realizing that the girl I thought was the one...was not. So the field

is where i am at...until I find that one you speak of.

[DUKE3100]

If you

acknowledge it's only a theory you should listen to other's opinions instead of completely dismissing them and

attempting to belittle them. Many of us have experiences that run counter to your theories. That does not make us

stupid or unobservant, as you keep implying. It simply means we have experiences you aren't accounting for. Denying

them is poor science, no matter how you feel about it. I am not the one who is claiming my explanation is the only

right one, you are. I readily admit that there are multiple possibilities. You should learn to open your mind to

possibilities other than your own interpretation.

Allow me to apoligize Bel. I am sorry to have upsett

you this way and it was not my intent. I was going for some humor in the post about Yoga. It was not meant to

belittle you. I feel like you are bitter though and that is not a joke. I sense a lot of negative energy and a vibe

that says you expect the worse from people. I do not think anyone is stupid or unobservant. I have tremendous

respect for other peoples opinions. I would like to know what it is that I do that makes you feel I think you are

stupid. I would like to know what it is that I do that makes you think I do not respect others opinions. Where have

I denied anyone? My post started to chime in on my opinion in an open thread asking for an opinion. I then found

myself having to post several posts as many people began using my quotes, interacting with me, and debating theory.

This is done all the time on this forum. Suddenly I am the bad guy.....I just dont get it. Does that mean I am going

to dissmiss the theories that are producing better results than I have ever seen in my life with the opposite sex?

No....because I am trying to find the right girl. Once I find the right girl I can let down my walls and defenses. I

can soften up a little and show a little sensitivity and be more open. I will never do it again until I can trust

that she is for real though. The only thing in this thread that could be considered by me to be overbearing of my

opinion was how I said not to ask the girl if she wanted to be with him. That is because I think 100 percent that it

is totally the wrong move. I will not sit silently and let bad advice be given because its not in my nature. I think

you really need to take some time to just loosen up Bel. You need to give people the benefit of the doubt and loosen

up. Dont be so negative ok?

[Gegogi]

When is the last time you

saw some young guy with a lady in her 40's or 50's??
Actually I see it everyday. A friend, a female music

professor, only dates guys less than half her age. She even married one of her students but the marriage only lasted

about a year. My former chairman, a female art professor, has been raiding the caddle for as long as I've known

her. The relatonships tend to be sexual and secretive but steady. Both these woman are middle aged but well kept and

attractive. However, 20-something guys are lining up to be with them. And I know lots of other female professors

that get hit on constantly by their students but don't respond (they're trying to stay married). Sensational

examples in the media abound and it's getting increasingly common.

Sure it's more common to see an older man

with a younger woman. However, I don't think many of these women are attracted to older men because of money or the

potential ability to "provide." Speaking from experience, many younger women simply find older men attractive and

just want a fling or break from their husband or BF. For the same reasons, many younger guys go for older women.

[DUKE3100]

Actually I see it

everyday. A friend, a female music professor, only dates guys less than half her age. She even married one of her

students but the marriage only lasted about a year. My former chairman, a female art professor, has been raiding the

caddle for as long as I've known her. The relatonships tend to be sexual and secretive but steady. Both these woman

are middle aged but well kept and attractive. However, 20-something guys are lining up to be with them. And I know

lots of other female professors that get hit on constantly by their students but don't respond (they're trying to

stay married). Sensational examples in the media abound and it's getting increasingly common.

Sure it's more

common to see an older man with a younger woman. However, I don't think many of these women are attracted to older

men because of money or the potential ability to "provide." Speaking from experience, many younger women find older

men physically attractive and just want a fling or break from their husband or BF. For the same reasons, many

younger guys go for older women.

Gegogi...you always twist things....let me rephrase.....how often do

you see a young guy (20's) that is good looking with a older woman (40's 50's) who also is UNATTRACTIVE (which is

what is being debated here attraction)?? Its much more common to see a 10 girl with a 3 guy. Now I am tired of the

debates and I am having to post way too much and having my words twisted and misunderstood. Its obvious that there

are a handful of you on here that have been around longer than I have and have no respect for my opinions or

theories. There is a couple things I dont tolerate and one of them is having my time wasted. So I have posted my

last post. Good luck to you all. Its been real....its been fun....it hasn't been "REAL FUN" but then again its just

a pheromone board anyway. Peace and love to you all. Good luck with everything.

[Lamborghini]

It sounds

like you have a good friend. You are getting the same interaction that you would see her have with her girlfriends,

the only difference is you are a guy and you would think that would to somewhere. The scents are just getting her

closer to you but no further and also she trusts you so is not going to hold back to much being friendly. I have a

similar situation where one of my flatmates is the same and everyone else can see it but she is not going further

than friends, unless I happen to get the right situation but that is for me to know. The thing that really gets me

is that her and another female flatmate dont go out aren't in relationships but quite content. And to prove this

point we have a young couple living with us as well and the girl in that couple is always flirting with me and I am

sure if see didn't have moral values we could be together. :whip:



Eh everyone,

Well a

female friend and I have been getting pretty close over the last little while. From the outside you might even say

we're dating, just without the kissing and the sex. A few of our mutual friends have told me that we'd be perfect

for one another, and naturally I'd like to bridge the gap so to speak from friends to something more. The problem

is we're housemates, and if she wasn't interested, things could become awkward for obvious reasons.

I usually

wear a few dabs of NPA, SoE and A1, whenever I know she's ovulating, which tends to get her a little hot and

bothered. She becomes quite flirty, but whenever I go on the offence or try to get closer, she likes to playfully

push me away/ punch me, giggles a lot, and likes to continuously tease me. But that's all it ever seems to be, one

big tease. She knows that I have other prospects out there, and I've stayed well away from the "nice guy" persona

to avoid LJBF land.

The annoying thing is whenever I go out at night or don't tell her what I'm up to, she

desperately needs to know where I went or who I was with. And when I don't tell her, she needs to know even more.

But when I give her my full attention and spend time with her, she tends to be a little prissy, pays less attention

towards me. I think she enjoys knowing she could have me whenever I'm around, but becomes much more interested in

me when she knows she can't have me or I'm not spending time with her.

So I was wondering if the forum could

share any advice or stories of how they turned a friend into something more. I'd be open to any advice the women in

the forum have too. Thanks.

[tounge]

My oh my. All these words, when in

reality, all this guy wants to do is hose his hot,little,prick teasin, girlfriend. Got Phero, if your still out

there, once the semester is over, move on. And don't ever roomate again with someone that is going to turn them

blue for you and cause your hands to become calloused.

[belgareth]

Duke,

I accept and offer my

own. However, I'd like to address somethings.

In both public and private you have repeatedly been rude and

insulting to me and others. You may not see it that way but others certanly do. Perhaps you should re-read your work

before posting if that is not your intent because that is how you come across to a lot of people.

Generally

speaking, there is a lot of good stuff in your posts but a lot that comes across as hateful and manipulative towards

women. I don't ever agree with anything that is intended to manipulate others and I have just as much right to post

my opinions as you.

You try to make your point and validiate your authority on the subject by telling us how

many relationships you've been in and such. Yet when I respond about how long I've been doing the same thing you

tell us it doesn't matter and that I am niave. Slow down and think it through, you can't have it both ways. When

you imply I don't know anything about science you are making an absurd statement with no knowledge whatsoever of

what you are saying. I don't know your education but I do respect your mind. That doesn't mean I have to agree

with anything you say. Nor does anybody else. When you start saying things that come across as belittleing them

because they disagreed with you, I will always step in. It part of being a moderator.

As for my anger, hostility

etc., that's downright funny. I'm doing a job here and there is nobody on the forum who can do anything to make me

angry. You've misread me based on your preconceptions. I will be blunt and straight-forward but angry? Not with

something so trivial as this forum or you. While all this has gone on, I've also been helping decorate the house

for Christmas and having fun. I'm not angry or even irritable. Don't judge me by mere written words, you'll be

wrong every time.

Without trying to belittle you, you come across as having some real issues with women. I've

been screwed over a few times too, as have most men and women. Don't let it ruin the possible good things in life

by always assuming the worst. You'll do a lot better in life and romance both. We are all human and all have our

flaws and foibles. Don't hold that against people. You have some of your own.

[tounge]

Well said by Belgarth.

[Gegogi]

Duke, I believe you when you

write you've not seen it in your neck of the woods. The world is a vast place and we ain't all the same. I was not

twisting your words. I merely stated what I observed. I really see spring-fall relationships between male students

and female faculty everyday. It's always right in front of my eyes. In fact, next door! Sure female faculty are

more discreet than their male counterparts (me!) but, nevertheless, they get busy whenever they can. In Japan it is

considered trendy for a guy to date or marry an older woman. Also, realize, most of the people around me are Asian

so there are cultural and racial differences from other parts of the world.

[belgareth]

there are

cultural and racial differences from other parts of the world.

That's an important point we should all

try to be aware of. Many people don't seem to realize what a huge cultural difference there may be between

themselves and somebody right across the street from them. Age, gender, ethniticity, religion all create huge gaps

in our understanding of one another. It is almost always a mistake to assume that the next person sees things the

same way you do and it's almost certain that a number of your innocent remarks will be misunderstood, sometimes

offensively. When it comes to sexual relations it is even more likely that you will be misunderstood and that your

innocent words will cause offense.

My suggestion is two-fold.

1. Stop and think before telling somebody

else how they think or believe. They may have other ideas.
2. Stop and think before you take offense at another's

remarks. They may have meant something entirely different from what you percieved.

[surfs_up]

dunno about anybody else... as I grew older I observed more and more how

powerful "projection" is in most folk's mental lives.... in the simplest form, projection means "seeing your

stuff" in other people, or finding that the qualities (or lack thereof) that push your buttons, or maybe just

strongly focus your attention on somebody else is where you are most unconscious about yourself.

Personally,

it seems that the more blind-spotty anyone is, the more they cruise around projecting their unresolved issues on

others...

I was up north near the arctic circle for a period of time when it was mandatory that I co-exist

with my team, there was no convenient place you could run off to and commiserate or blow off steam, you had to

function under adverse circumstances and stay intact. There was this hot under the collar racist hick, self

absorbed, reckless, frighteningly unconscious of how others saw him, and also damned resourceful, entertaining,

could cook servicable food out of the most lifeless freeze dried vac-pak rations, and strong as a mule. To this day

I don't understand how as many contradictory aspects of humanity found their way into his DNA, but we had to

tolerate and function with this maniac.
Kinda like 3 sticks of dynamite and a one inch fuse.

We'd have a

couple of days in Achorage to replace things we needed, get provisions, effect a few repairs and whatever and this

dude would be attached to us, we didn't dare blow him off 'cause he'd freak out than we'd have to exist with him

in one of his bizarre paranoid altered states for another month.

He was sure that even the most innocent

gesture from a stranger was an insult, people all around were disrespecting him, and like if a black guy squeezed by

him in a store aisle (about half as wide as a normal aisle in the lower 48) that guy was purposefully "giving him

shit", if you change the radio when Elvis was singing, which meant he was singing along, you were giving him shit,

if you told him he better do something like X because it would keep him from falling to his death, he's go

improvise it like Y just to prove nobody could give him shit. Turned out in his previous job he was the manager of

an east texas fried chicken joint and had a side career as a professional arsonist to collect insurance money.



Perfect, exactly the guy you want to depend on in a wilderness emergency.

Thing was, he constantly,

eternally was seeing himself and all his craziness in everybody else, and as far as he was concerned he was as

serene and normal as buddha himself.

The problem with the world was Black Militants and Bitches Who Didn't

Know Their Place and Assholes Who Acted Like Assholes In Public and People Who Needed To Be Taught A Lesson... to

his credit he didn't seem like a homophobe, though... he was spewing this energy like a chunk of plutonium that

belched out of Chernobyl and was about as toxic... you could not escape his presence fast enough, if you were stuck

with him you just humored his ass nonstop and prayed for relief... thank God I never got roped into going drinking

with him...

He just assumed there were a few people he liked, meaning people who were using all their social

survival skills to tolerate him and that most people had a fucked up attitude, and he knew this by seeeing how they

acted towards him. He was "into" skanky women 'cause they had no expectations, slam bam thanl ya mam and out the

door to his next batch of fried chicken and whatever....

Another sobering life experience...

[got phero?]

Thanks Surfs_up, I'm not entirely sure what to make of your last post :rolleyes: but I think I get the

general idea.

Does anyone know what the "experts" David DeAngelo and Ross Jeffries have to say about the matter

of turning friends into lovers. Anyone care to elaborate?

[catlord17]

It really boils down to one

simple point. If you want to turn a woman into your lover, you have to make her want to be your lover. I almost

never ask for sex, and haven't for as long as I've been sexually active. I am usually the one answering the

request, instead. If I want a woman to want me, it's only a matter of knowing what she responds to. This is where

communication comes in, whether it be asking her directly, or gently probing and observing over a period of time.

Find out what makes her tick and she's yours. If I am looking for a woman to seduce, I usually look for the ones

who respond to touch, because I know how to seduce through touch very well. Make them initiate by being (or doing)

what gets them going. That's how you turn any woman into a lover. But no matter how hot she is, I would avoid

making a roommate my lover.

[itwow]

It's hard to turn a friend into

lover, even more so for a housemate. To seduce effectively, there has to be a gap of absence & mystery. But this is

not going to happen if you live together.

There is no allure, no mental space or time for fantasy or missed

moments, if you're in her face half of the time. Plus, she already knows too much of you by now. Familiarity breeds

apathy (it could be worse though...)

Using -mones on a non-committed housemate is like fishing on the same

spot everyday. You'd have to be extremely lucky...

[Gegogi]

A student of mine married his

housemate while an undergraduate. He answered an ad for a roommate near campus and hooked up with her almost

immediately. Six months later he married her. I thought it odd but I guess anything is possible.

I recall

campus roommate situations as typically extremely transitory. I often moved every 3 to 6 months. You really don't

live together long enough to know one another well or feel like family, so the attraction tends to linger if there.

I got stoned and/or drunk with my housemates nearly everyday, so getting lucky with a female housemate once in a

while wasn't that unusual. A little Jack Daniels can work miracles.