Memoirs of a newbie

[valentines_garden]

Hi,

allow me to introduce myself. I'm a (male) college freshman in NY, Asian, 5'7", average looks, maybe a little

overweight but certainly not fat. All my life, I've been suffering from the LJBF syndrome. Actually, it's been

more of a WAGG but LJBF. Girls are always telling me how nice, smart, interesting and multi-talented I am, but never

show any romantic interest in me. For many years now, I've been toying with the idea of using synthetic pheromones,

but I was always skeptical about their effectiveness, and I (and my friends) kept telling myself "be patient, and

one day someone will be attracted to your natural charm." Well, guess what? I've been as patient as I can, and that

never happened. Then, about two weeks ago, the girl I've been really interested in since I first met her early in

the semester, and who gave me WAGG but LJBF about a month before that when I told her I liked her, started going out

with a guy who almost all my female friends agree is less attractive than me in both looks and personality and is,

to quote some of them, "really weird and annoying". I wept for a bit, and then decided that enough was enough, and

that my days of rejection were over. A week ago, I ordered the freebie pack.

One concern I've always had about

the validity of "hits" posted on this forum is that the fact that we're here shows that we either believe or want

to believe in the power of synthetic pheromones, and that might impair our objectivity to some degree. Therefore,

I've tried to temper myself with a good bit of skepticism.

---

Note: On all the days mentioned below, I wore

Alessandro Dell'Acqua cologne, which I normally use, in addition to the pheromone gels.

DAY 1
I applied about

1/4 unscented SOE gel on my neck and a little on my wrists. I'm usually on very friendly terms with lots of girls

so it's hard to tell if they were friendlier than usual. A few of them might have been just a tad bit more

flirtatious than usual but I can't be certain.

DAY 2
I applied about 1/4 scented Chikara gel on my neck and a

little on my wrists. I spent most of the day alone off campus, and was therefore surrounded by people I didn't

know. I didn't get any particular attention from any strangers. Back on campus, however, I may have gotten my first

DIHL, but I only caught a fleeting glimpse of it when I turned behind, and it is entirely possible (and probable)

that her gaze wasn't actually on me. On retrospect, however, the same girl had called out "hi" to me when I passed

by her and her friends on Day 1, which didn't usually happen and I haven't spoken to her much. Coincidence? Or the

effect of 'mones? I don't want to jump to conclusions yet...

DAY 3
I wore about 1/4 unscented SOE gel with a

small amount of Chikara and TE gel. I may have gotten a little more female attention than usual but again, I can't

be sure. There was a girl who, when she came up from behind me to talk to me, wrapped her arms around my chest and

whispered into my ear. I thought that was a little unusual since we didn't know each other that well, but we were

certainly friends and she was somewhat flirtatious in general, so it's unconclusive.

DAY 4
I mixed a small

amount of unscented SOE gel with my hair styling mousse, and applied about 1/4 unscented SOE gel with 1/4 TE gel

onto my neck. A few girls whom I was fairly close to may have acted a little closer to me than usual but, once

again, nothing conclusive.

DAY 5 (today)
I wore about 1/2 scented SOE gel. Again no obvious reactions but I did

get the following conversation with a girl I knew pretty well (slightly modified and abridged):

Me: From now on,

I'm going to be a ladies' man. I'm going to show [that girl who rejected me] that half the girls at this college

want to sleep with me.

She: I do.

Me: (grins) I'll hold you to that.

She: (chuckles) Nah, that would be

awkward, 'cause every time we see each other we'd just be thinking of how great the other night was. Besides,

I've sworn off men. No, not really.

And that was the end of that topic. I didn't get any more attention than

usual from any of my female teachers.

---

I'll continue testing and posting reports. Meanwhile, I've just

ordered a box of Perception gel packs just because it seemed like too good a deal to pass up; I can't wait to start

experimenting with that.

Till next time,
Valentine's Garden.

[belgareth]

Good, keep the scepticism going

but keep a journal too. I strongly urge you to work with a single product at a time as it will give you a better

opportunity to get reliable results. Since you are buying Perception, start with that and run tests to see what it

does and how much you need. I hope it all works out for you.

[gfunk]

Interesting read VG!

:welcome:

Now how many of these "coincidences" do you experience normally? I think you've had some great results

already, so you should forget about being sceptic and focus on getting the best results. It can only help for you to

think positive! :thumbsup:

Might I add, depending on how bad you want it you should consider doing excercise and

maybe a change of diet in order to lose that extra fat you've got. This is good for you health and you sense of

well being, which in turn increases your self-confidence. In my opinion, this will turn your situation in the

direction you want it; i.e. women starting to show romantic interest. This in combination with the synthetic mones

will be totally dangerous!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Best of luck!

;)

[valentines_garden]

Yes I know, I need to

start working out at the gym. I've been telling myself that, but always found excuses not to (especially not having

enough time, which is very real for me with my crazy schedule, but I guess it's worth sacrificing a bit of social

time for my health). I'll try to find time this week and force myself to go.

Meanwhile, I'll post more results

when the day is over.

[belgareth]

You've been approaching mone

use the right way, as a sceptic. Don't jump to conclussions but test them out steadily and methodologically.

You'll get the most reliable results that way.

[Mtnjim]

Well, you've got part of

the formula. Next you need to start working on you! Check out <link Deleted> and sign up for his newsletter; also

some of the <Link Deleted> about working on your "technique”; i.e. not being a wuss, and "cocky and funny". The

~mones will help, but they aren't a magic bullet!

By the way, :welcome:

[valentines_garden]

I've read some issues

of David de Angelo's newsletter, but they all seem to be blatant and somewhat empty promotions for his "Double Your

Dating" e-book. Have you read it and/or found it to be useful, Mtnjim?

About being "cocky" and stuff, I have said

to some of my female friends before, "you know, I'm sick and tired of being the nice guy who never gets the girls.

Maybe I should just become an asshole and girls will come flocking to me." And the most common reply was something

along the lines of "oh no, you're one of the nicest persons I know, don't do that because then you won't be

yourself and nobody will like you for it." Well, what I'm thinking is maintaining the "nice guy" image (which is

probably natural for me anyway) but amping up my sexual confidence and boosting that with 'mones. One thing to

remember is that I'm in a fairly small college and thus I'm always surrounded be people I know. In addition, most

of my good friends are female. It would be a bad idea to suddenly turn into someone I'm not and risk turning them

away from me.

[Kardz]

Alot of his

earlier material is dead on but it's very raw information and can be hard to apply.

Subscribe to his

newsletter, he does promote his product just about every newsletter and he does use emails from his students as

plugs but in almost every dating tip or newsletter there's a lesson to be learned if you aren't a ladies man.



His products about inner game and his interview series stuff can be extremely effective. He doesn't focus on just

techniques and lines, he's all about inner game and getting yourself right as much as any technique.

Get the

newsletter, and if your really cheap just download some of his stuff off of something like limewire or a p2p

program. Some of it sucks or won't make sense early on but there is alot of valueble information in it.

Derek

Vitalio is pretty similar and he takes basically the same outlook with women as David D but he's got his own

style.

Some of their products are ok, other's will teach you alot and make alot of stuff click. I can tell by

reading some of the people's posts here that they're students of David D or some other guru in one form or

another. It's obvious.

They'll help you grow as a person and help you with women if you have the patience.



I don't know about Derek Vitalio, but David D offers money back guarantees on alot of his stuff. Better

guarantees than just about everyone. I was reading some of his stuff and I forgot what it was he was promoting, but

he was giving like 30 days or 3 months or something to learn and apply it, and if it don't work send it back and he

won't charge you. He's got some other one with his ebooks too, tell him it doesn't work or its not for you, and

even though you can't return an ebook he'll refund you.

So with David D's stuff there's no risk and you can

always get your loot back.

This sounds like an obvious plug from the way i'm reading my own post but i've been

reading his ebooks and newsletters and watched a few of his advanced series stuff over the last 4 years and I can

tell you Iwouldn't be the person I am today without it.

Ryan

[Undertow]

There's nothing wrong with

being a nice guy. The problem most "nice guys" have is that they're far too passive and give women far too much

power over them. You can be nice, but you still have to be a man.

[Mtnjim]

images/icons/icon1.gif


" I've read some issues of

David de Angelo's newsletter, but they all seem to be blatant and somewhat empty promotions for his "Double Your

Dating" e-book."

Of course they aree promotions for his book, but if yor read some of the answers to the

questions, they can provide hints.

"About being "cocky" and stuff..."

The important part is the AND FUNNY

part!:lol:

Of course you can remain the "nice guy" your female friends like, if you only want females as

"friends".:POKE:

And NO, never become an A-hole!!:angel:

[valentines_garden]

There's nothing wrong with being a nice guy. The problem most "nice guys" have is that they're

far too passive and give women far too much power over them. You can be nice, but you still have to be a

man.

And that's what I'm going to be from now on. :thumbsup:

[belgareth]

We've about beat the subject

of nice guys to death on this forum. Some people regard a nice guy as a wimp who acts like a supplicant and lets

women walk all over him. Don't ever do that. MntJim said it well when he said to never become an a**hole. But you

can still stand up and act like a man while being a nice guy.

[tounge]

Here is a big RED FLAG, based on

your reporting of your convo's with the women you mentioned.

You talk to them like you are one of their

Girlfriends. You don't converse with women about your emotional needs and problems with women.

I'm not

going to tell you any specifics or direct you to any seduction products. However, just based on your posts, it

really seems you need a much better way of relating to women. For a women to see you in a romantic light, you need

to project the image of a MAN. Not another one of her chick friends.


Oh and P.S. Try to find some male

friends and hang around less with your female buddies. Hopefully soon you'll get it.

[DUKE3100]

1) Find the gym even if you

have to go to bed a little earlier to get up earlier.
2) Have one of your little "girl" friends go clothes shopping

and help you pick out a couple new things to wear that are stylish.
3) Get dating e-book by Carlos Xuma (Explains

things much better than David with less chance to misunderstand without having to buy his dvd for 300 bucks which is

why he is so vague in ebook cause he is more a marketing guru than a dating guru)
4) Start slowly experimenting

with mones to find the right thing for you. Start with None....If you need a lot of it start experimenting with none

heavy or dark mones....if girls seem to not respond or get mean or quiet or nothing and you can use very

little.....experiment more with the white mones to find your combo
5) Most important take action and go for what

you want....dont act like their little gay friend if what you want is romantic interest from a girl. The longer she

has to get comfortable with you in her life as a friend....the weirder it will be for her when you finally get up

the balls to make a move.

[CptKipling]

About being "cocky" and

stuff, I have said to some of my female friends before, "you know, I'm sick and tired of being the nice guy who

never gets the girls. Maybe I should just become an asshole and girls will come flocking to me." And the most common

reply was something along the lines of "oh no, you're one of the nicest persons I know, don't do that because then

you won't be yourself and nobody will like you for it."

They may like you, but they are talking about

liking you as a friend. Just look at the types of guys that those women actually go out with or just have sex

with.

I wouldn't be really nasty to people though, that's not exactly constructive. Just focus on being really

fun to be around while not seeking approval of those around you.

Girls will have sex and relationships with a

confident man, not one of their friends. That is the essence of LJBF. There's nothing wrong with having female

friends though, or being a good person.

I'm not a "student of David D" but I have seen some of his stuff out of

curiosity.

[Pancho1188]

I'm copying and pasting this

quote from one of my old posts, and if you want to read the whole argument I've made, do an advanced search for

"Nice Guy" with "Pancho1188" as the person whose posts you are looking to read. To sum it up for you, though, there

is the nice guy, the asshole, and the real man. A "nice guy" is nice but usually lacks confidence,

assertiveness/aggressiveness, or masculine/sexual presence. An "asshole" has confidence but earns it/keeps it by

putting others down or being ignorant or mean. A "real man" can be confident without putting others down or

insulting people. The "assholes" get more chances with the ladies than the "nice guys" because confidence trumps

kindness. You can have the best of both worlds, though, with the "real man" attitude.


Watch the movie

The Mask (although I'm sure many have already seen it). It's a movie about---whodathunkit---a "nice guy"

who actually writes an article called "Nice Guys Finish Last" in the movie. He won't stand up for himself to his

boss, he won't do anything to advance his life in any way, but he's a hell of a nice guy (and I believe people

tell him that in the movie). He then finds the mask and becomes a "jerk". Then, he finds out that he doesn't need

the mask to become a real man, and *poof* he makes the transition from "nice guy" to "jerk" to "real man" all in one

movie.

[valentines_garden]

That's an excellent

analogy, Pancho1188. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

Meanwhile...

DAY 6
Nothing much to report. I was ill so

I spent most of my time alone in my room. I applied about 1/4 Chikara gel to my neck in the morning, came back and

took a nap, then because I was worried that I may have rubbed off most of the 'mones onto the bed, I added about

1/8 TE gel. I took another nap in the late afternoon so I'm not sure how much of the 'mones remained when I went

out again in the evening. One girl (another good friend) may have seemed to consistently stand a little closer to me

than usual, but nothing remarkable happened.

Incidentally (and this is a general report, not just for today), it

is possible that the 'mones may be having a positive effect on my gay roommate, though there are no clear

indications and he knows that I'm straight so it's unlikely that he would show any obvious signs.

[Gegogi]

The problem here is everybody has

a different definition of what a "nice guy" is. To some, a nice guy is a dickless doormat lacking direction and

personality, kissing up to everyone around him and begging for mercy. To me, that's a description of a spineless

coward. He is not nice and doesn't qualify as a man (maybe a cockroach). To me, nice guys have mamas that taught

them manners, to be fair and to consider the rights and feelings of others before their own needs. However, he can

still be a man and stand up for what he believes, be confident, sucessful, think for himself and take no prisoners

in life's mission. Now a young man acting cocky is shouts "I am immature, insecure and self-centered." He appears

needy because he's trying too hard to be the man he wished he were...

Now I consider myself a nice guy.

I'm sensitive, caring, witty, educated, vain (!) and well mannered. I do get regular poon and sometimes from places

I shouldn't tread (e.g., students and wives of associates). I guess I'm a nice guy because I hate to hurt the

feelings of a succulent piece of ass! I have lots of female friends I can talk to about "sensitive" topics like

feelings or sex. I guess you might call it "girl talk." Anyway, my male friends usually hate talking about those

sorts of things. In my experience, talking about "sensitive" topics with women tends to bring them closer to me.

They gotta trust you bigtime to talk about their pussies or sexual techniques. Many times such conversations lead to

"show 'n tell" and eventually "friends with benefits" sex. Many women have told me it was my gentle nature and

intimate conversation that turned them on. I was merely being myself and didn't care if I got in their pants.

However, I could see where some guys could come off as being a perv or worse if they lacked conversational skills.

[Cloud9]

You might want to try out some of

Gegogi's combonations and dosages if you get the opportunity. I hate generalizing, but the fact that you are asian

and seem to be women's friends more than anything else and believe you come off as a nice guy would indicate you

probably need to crank up the TE(Anone). A nice ratio of TE to SOE might be just right for you. Make sure you use

less SOE than TE so that you keep it a sexual mix rather than primarily friendly since you've got that down pat

without mones.

[valentines_garden]

The

problem here is everybody has a different definition of what a "nice guy" is. To some, a nice guy is a dickless

doormat lacking direction and personality, kissing up to everyone around him and begging for mercy. To me, that's a

description of a spineless coward. He is not nice and doesn't qualify as a man (maybe a cockroach). To me, nice

guys have mamas that taught them manners, to be fair and to consider the rights and feelings of others before their

own needs. However, he can still be a man and stand up for what he believes, be confident, sucessful, think for

himself and take no prisoners in life's mission. Now a young man acting cocky is shouts "I am immature, insecure

and self-centered." He appears needy because he's trying too hard to be the man he wished he were...



Thanks, Gegogi! My thoughts exactly. I certainly don't consider myself a spineless coward. As a good

musician who knows it, I definitely have confidence both on and off the stage. I realize, however, that I need to

drum it into my subconscious that girls find me irresistable, and let that show through in my interactions with

girls -- a different kind of confidence that I still need to develop.

[DUKE3100]

Ok....you have a great

plan.....if for some reason that does not come together for you.....you can re-read the thread with all the advice

and go from there. Go Get em!:cheers:

[surfs_up]

This acting method will beat the pants off any book or tape your money can buy.

In the hands of a good meisner teacher you will find out very quickly where your skill level is at, how to be

uncomfortable as hell and stay loose about it, how to keep a conversation moving... meisner training gives you no

place to hide, it forces you to work off the other player's energy and forget your own stupid gig... the massive,

grotesque, wildly fucked up mistake that these How-To courses make is they teach it like wretchedly bad acting

teachers teach people how to be wretchedly bad actors, like a simple formula that you memorize and then try to pull

off the formula, if you tried that on stage you'd be boo'd off in 10 minutes of making a total fool of yourself...

meisner is unique in that there is no formula, you have to be totally responsive and alive to the finest shifts in

energy from the other person and know how to track those shifts and work with them. it is a powerful skill that is

totally transparent, nobody sees or feels you doing meisner, it is absolutely invisible, there anre no lines, no

hooks, no moves, no pathetic NLP schticks (speaking as one who went through an extended NLP phase with the real

dudes a quarter century ago)... meisner is pure energetic attunement, it is hard and frustrating to learn, you'll

feel like an idiot for months as you study it, then when it starts to click in, you'll be thinking, what the F?

Where did that come from ? It was so effortless, so natural, like breathing, pure second nature... just do the

legwork and find a good (translation: relentless, intuitive, powerful ,respected in the industry, demanding, cuts

your bullshit no slack) meisner teacher... and beware of the legions of phonies that, heeeeock, "teach acting"...

it's the purest path there is...

[Gegogi]

I've taken several acting

working shops and they were extremely helpful in tweaking my verbal/body/facial communication skills.

[belgareth]

Dale Carnegie courses are good

for that too.

[DUKE3100]

If an acting workshop is

teaching you how to act...how does it help you in the real world though? Are you allowed to act any persona

including of yourself? I dont get it....At first it sounded very exciting...but now that I have found out it is

nothing more than acting class I wonder the merit of how it can help you in the real world with better social skills

when it is teaching you to become a character....and yes....I took acting class and loved it to death....but helping

you with women? I just dont understand....

[DUKE3100]

How about a class that teaches you how to act like jame bond and pull it off..that would be

cool.

We cant shoot bad guys or blow things up but here is a crash lesson on how YOU can be like James

Bond:

1) Be laid back and calm no matter what...maybe even humorous

2) Learn how to communicate in metaphors

and in a nonverbal way with the ladies so that you can be talking about anything but turning them on and making them

think of you in the right way.
3) Be a man
4) Take care of her

[surfs_up]

having survived some damn awful bad acting classes in search of the real

deal... point 1, yes, there are real deal teachers out there, and they're the ones who make you really

uncomfortable and demand you work right down to your core and point 2, those teachers are very unpopular with losers

and phonies because losers and phonies can't take the heat unless they make the conscious choice to get past their

loser-phony facades and take responsibility for their own existences at a deeper level, and point 3, these teachers

are also most respected at being able to to generate real results because they will only work with real energy, and

point 4, only real energy is going to score in the outer world so you might as well learn how to cultivate it or get

used to riding in the cattle car, and point 5, there are more than too many lame losers who have figured out a nice

little cash generating racket peddling their sad excuses for "acting classes"... if that's all you ever

experienced, you might think that's the real McCoy when it never was Jack and never was intended to be...... you

have to do your homework and sniff out the good stuff, then be prepared to work your sad ass ragged, 'cause that

focus and committment and ability is what other people instinctively get about you when they size you up, which,

trust me, they do non-stop.

[DUKE3100]

sooooo....I guess what you are

saying is that if you find the right acting teacher he will teach you to be able to put your true energy into

everything you do right down to the smallest subtle movement....right?

[Gegogi]

"...I wonder the merit of

how it can help you in the real world with better social skills when it is teaching you to become a character....and

yes....I took acting class and loved it to death....but helping you with women? I just dont

understand....

Acting and music performance have taught me how to precisely control and project feelings

and persona. As a performer I must step on stage and, no matter how I feel, convince an auduence my feelings are

genuine. Once I have their confidence--and that often takes as little as a few seconds--I can manipulate their

emotional responses. In everyday life this means, regardless of how I feel about a person or situation, I can create

and project an image of myself I actually desire.

Performance classes do not teach you how to think and solve

problems. You won't learn how to close a business deal or pickup women at the market. That's up to you. However,

performance training helps give you the discipline and basic techniques to carry out your plan. For example I often

have to speak and perform in front of hundreds, sometimes thousands of people. I'm often told how relaxed and

confident I appear. However--like many performers--I'm actually scared shitless but have learned to protray a

confident and authoritative persona. And, yes, I can turn it on and off like a light switch.

[surfs_up]

a real acting class will make you really uncomfortable, over and over, in

hundreds of ways, until you learn to work with discomfort; pressure, awkwardness become you allies, not your

adversary... most wannabees can't get over because they can't take psychological pressure, once the adrenaline

kicks in they fall to pieces.... the best teachers will take you to places where you learn to respond to having all

your most sensitive buttons pushed with elegant social reflexes... you will move from a place of doing to a place of

being, you won't have to consciously do anything, you just hang out and be. Centered Being is the most critical

skill, there's no recipe. Your center has to be very still, perceptive, aware, responsive, quiet, free of a lot of

preconceptions and need to fill the space with excess talk and activity... like, knowing exactly when to stop

talking, exactly where the social edge is, when to let silence do its work at the precise instant, that is fine

skill they few, very few people have without deep training.

[Cloud9]

I prefer the trials, errors, and

lessons of real life events rather than a class. Anything though that helps give you an edge in life is always a

good thing. So if classes is what it takes, then so be it.

[valentines_garden]

That was an

interesting interlude on acting classes... I've always been interested in theater myself and might be taking an

acting class next semester.

Anyway, today's report... used 1/4 Chikara gel. Sadly, nothing to report.

I'm

hoping to get my Perception gel packs tomorrow...

[Charlie]

What Carl Jung said

about Persona as an archetype is that it projects the inner self and it’s kinda hard to control like all archetypes.

Some say is like an aura other say its body language. It is of course the mask we "choose" to wear for society, a

negotiation of what we want to show and what the immediate environment will allow us to show but it also conceals

our true nature.
What you guys are saying is interesting. Can someone stop this

projection and replace it with something else? And can he do it flawlessly?

Didn’t you

ever watch a movie and say something is really wrong here. This role doesn’t fit him (happened to me with Keanu

Reeves dozen of times :P) or if someone approaches you and you dislike him without even hearing a word from

him.

Anyway am not sure if acting lessons can change what someone is but they can rid that

“stage fright” when you are going to act (flirt – I believe flirt is an act but that’s another story)



Btw valentine don’t give up on chikara me things that is good stuff if you have some more use ½ and

try and use it in clean air environment and where people tent to stop and talk, like seminars, galleries, museums

etc. The hook on chikara is the great smell. I can’t stop smelling it and so do others. They try to figure out what

perfume it is (I don’t know what to tell when they ask :/), smell it till the pinpoint where it comes from and so

on…they longer they smell they bigger phero dosage they get. Of course if you start a conversation and keep the

target near is all the better. :thumbsup:

[belgareth]

Acting classes would work.

Other things do it too, anything that takes you out of your shell. For me it was the Dale Carnegie courses which put

you up in front of people to speak. A friend of mine joined Toastmasters for the same reasons. The point is to train

you how to project what you want instead of your natural discomfort at speaking in front of others.

[surfs_up]

there is a possibility that pheromones are doing their job and the user isn't socially

adept, good enough at picking up on social nuances, to sense how act 1, scene 2 is unfolding, or doesn't know what

to do with the energies that are released when the -mone shifts happen. Face it, a lot of guys, probably the

majority of guys, are poorly attuned to minimal cues and what they might imply. So they have a memorized routine...

be cocky and funny be cocky and funny be cocky and funny... and they pour more of this on at every turn, and the

woman is thinking "what is wrong with this doofus he isn't listening to me ?" or more like "this pompous jerk is so

into his shallow self there's no room for me in this conversation"... or "this guy is hiding behind such an

blatantly bad act" that they feel dumped on, overloaded with stuff they don't care about, or they could see better

on the Lifetime Channel... from experience with many combinations of -mones the best connections are built from

simple, uncomplicated, organic interchange, underacted, underplayed, kind of minimal and rich at the same time...

because I think at the root of it, all of us want to be "felt", understood, gotten, acknowledged as a person, valued

for what we are.... good verb, to value... the pheromone may create that opening where it is okay to express

something more intimate and personal in the middle of an impersonal world, you know in a world full of cell phones

and gadgets blinking shit, ring tones, poses, celebrity cribs, and in the middle of all that crap a moment opens up

and somebody snaps to what you're about.... that's cool, that's mystical... if you can get yourself in that

place, and you have the -mones as your trusty allies that will then put demands on your skills... -mones are funny

that way because they open up so many more possibilities that you might not have been prepared for, how many people

have written "she was agitated/flustered/aroused whatever and I didn't know what to do next" ?

[valentines_garden]

Acting classes would work. Other things do it too, anything that takes you out of your shell. For

me it was the Dale Carnegie courses which put you up in front of people to speak. A friend of mine joined

Toastmasters for the same reasons. The point is to train you how to project what you want instead of your natural

discomfort at speaking in front of others.

Well... I don't usually have a problem speaking in public, or

talking to people in general, male or female, young or old.
I DO have a problem "flirting" with girls, or asking a

girl out, or basically interacting with girls beyond casual friendship (or occasionally joke flirting where we both

know we don't mean it). That's something I'll have to learn to get comfortable with.

[belgareth]

The only way you are going to

get comfortable with it is by doing it. Haave fun! I do it all the time now. Joke with the kid in the 7-11 or the

checker at the grocery store. See if you can make the clerk in the bank laugh. the more you try at it the easier it

gets and the more fun you can have with it.

[DUKE3100]

I used to have that problem

too...I didnt want to ruin my "nice" "safe" "secure" immage. I learned later that people will appreciate you for

making them laugh and making their day interesting. Start off practicing on strangers in banks and grocery stores

like he says. What you will eventually learn about a girl is that even if you make them feel anger its better than

being so boring and bland to them so as to not stick out at all. Women appreciate safe guys....but first ya gotta

show them that your confident and fun too. nice and safe is what closes the deal....but if its all you are....the

only deal you will get is the one where she tells you all her problems and about her new boyfriend Nick.

[tounge]

I DO

have a problem "flirting" with girls, or asking a girl out, or basically interacting with girls beyond casual

friendship (or occasionally joke flirting where we both know we don't mean it). That's something I'll have to

learn to get comfortable with.



Exactly why you need to start acting like a man around them.

You need to make some sexual moves on some women or you will be considered another girlfriend. Flirting and

exhibiting some sign of male sexual behavior will go a long way to improve your relations with the other sex.




Your problem is quite common. I see it all the time. It has nothing to do with being a nice guy or

acting. Take an acting class if it will help, but make sure you develop some male friendships also.

Look, the

creator gave you two balls for a reason, and if you are afraid to show them you'll get no where with women. You can

come across in a sexual way with women while still being a gentleman. You need to learn how to. And the sooner the

better.

[DUKE3100]

Just want to add one thing

though to what he just said.....keep in mind that suddenly acting like a man and not their little girl friend or gay

friend is going to be weird to some of these girls. You have defined yourself to them and they have already placed

you in the friend category. This new strategy is best to use on new girls and then when they start responding to

you....maybe one of your girl friends will get jealous as it occurs to her that you indeed do have balls....but just

because a girl you have not flirted with makes you feel foolish...doesnt mean it is foolish.... Its the same thing

as if you were to go to your best friend and say that you are a pimp....he would laugh at you....because he thinks

he knows you and who you are. That doesnt mean that you cannot become one...if you want to.

[tounge]

You're right Duke. The girls that

he is already girlfriends will probably never see him in a different light. He needs to move on to women as of yet

unknown, and let his girlie friends be social proof for him. Does he have the courage to make these changes and the

wisdom to know the way. It will take some time for him to break himself of these habits. It can be done with

patience and persistence.

[Gegogi]

"...keep in mind that

suddenly acting like a man and not their little girl friend or gay friend is going to be weird to some of these

girls.
Maybe to really young and inexperienced "girls," but not so much for women. Hmm, based on my

slender frame (but well toned), musician lifestyle and metromale threads, many women have assumed or wondered if I

was gay and, out of curiosity or a sense of challenge, come onto me (perhaps they were faghags?). Of course they

soon discover I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing. The thing is, there are as many tastes and preferences as there are

women and I've not found it necessary to tote my balls around in a wheelbarrow to get regular honey on my

stinger.

[tounge]

The kid is still a college student.

Not a Professor or a AP or an instructor. I have two very good friends who are professors at two different small

Universitys. The both swim in female student juice. My one bud just laughs when I questioned him about the potential

problems. He says they have always come on to him and he pretty much has his pick of the litter. One guy is in his

50's and the other is in his late forties.

Another bud of mine is an Assc.Prof down at Penn State, main

campus. He is only 32. He tells me the same stuff.

The faculty can stand out at a University, a hum drum

student has a great deal more difficulty in doing so.


And by the way, all the guys I mentioned are

currently single, and the two older ones are divorced.

[DUKE3100]

Maybe to really

young and inexperienced "girls," but not so much for women. Hmm, based on my slender frame (but well toned),

musician lifestyle and metromale threads, many women have assumed or wondered if I was gay and, out of curiosity or

a sense of challenge, come onto me (perhaps they were faghags?). Of course they soon discover I'm a wolf in

sheep's clothing. The thing is, there are as many tastes and preferences as there are women and I've not found it

necessary to tote my balls around in a wheelbarrow to get regular honey on my stinger.

I think your

right to an extent but I really think that where you live has something to do with this Gegogi. I think older women

in their 30's and 40's and onward are probably not the type of women I am referring to. There is nothing wrong

with being a sheep in wolfs clothing if it is working for you and they are comfortable with it. In your case there

are probably many many factors and complex chemistries that come together to form a strategy that works for you.

However it makes things much more complicated and advanced than it needs to be. I think it also limits chances and

windows of opportunity. Different things work for different people....in the end though the easiest thing for a man

to do to get a women is to be a man. Its not the only way....but I truely believe it to be the easiest way for most

guys and it has the broadest appeal to the most women. WHen you think of the term being a man though Gegogi you get

an image pop into your head of the stereotypical motor cycle guy revvin up his bike or the jock that stole your

highschool sweetheart....you must realize that I speak to a much broader man of all types....I myself was raised by

my mother for the most part and with two sisters. The majority of the first 20 years of my life were spent thinking

that if you do what mom says and you show the girl you like what a great and thoughtful and nice guy you are....that

is how to be a real man. Sadly life just isn't that simple. I wish it was. I am not saying you should not do those

things....but before those things will matter to a women she must first see you as a man.

[Gegogi]

Actually most of the women I come

in contact with are 18-25. Other than associates, I rarely even meet women in the age group of 30-40. Now I've

always gotten along with women really well. Perhaps because I was raised with 4 sisters. Often in only a few minutes

women start to trust me think they're my friend. Sure, there are complex chemistries (artifical 'mones), body

language and lots of smiling, teasing and flirting in the mix. I love to tease 'n flirt even if I have no intention

of going beyond that. But I don't try to be a man (woman or beast for that matter). I just do what feels

natural.

However, although In retrospect I may appear to have been a wolf in sheep's clothing, I'm still

100% myself. It's the women that mistakenly think I'm something I'm not. I'm not pretending to be gay, macho or

cocky. I just let it all hang out.


"....They both swim in female student juice."
I can't

say I'm swimming in it but, yeah, it's surprising how often they comeon to me. Most of the time you gotta shake

them off but lately I've been weaker than usual. Neverthess, I'd say merely being a professor doesn't guarantee

regular poon anymore than being a fireman. You still have to keep in shape, look decent and tease and entice women

to get them interested. The diff is you have buku opportunity. However, most of my associates' bellies are so big

they can't see their feet. I'm positive they aren't gettin' any and they sure get jealous of the cute young

things visiting me daily.

Incidentally, I learned to ignore my mother's advice about women while still a

teenager.

[valentines_garden]

Well, many couples I

know started out as friends. But I think you're right, I'd probably have a greater chance with girls I don't yet

know so well or hang out so often with.

Anyway, today's report -- my Perception gel pack came! I applied about

1/2 pack onto my neck (with a little on my wrists) -- I might have exceeded my intended 1/2 by a bit. As some have

noted elsewhere in this forum, the gel is VERY watery, which was a bit of an annoyance at first as I wasn't used to

it. Once again, nothing to report. Didn't have meet too many different girls today; and as I've said before, it's

really hard to tell if the 'mones are having an effect on girls who are usually very friendly with me. Also, I'm

still recovering from the cold I caught about two days ago, so I'm not sure if that has an effect on anything.

[tounge]

Let me add that the 3 men I

mentioned are in very good condition for their age. Not a beer belly on any of them. The older two are showing some

small amounts of grey on the sides.

And I'm here to tell you, if your a decently built fireman, cop, or

University Instructer, among other professions, and have the smallest amount of a game, you WILL swim in the juice.




But this is getting away from the topic. This kid is a student. They are a dime a dozen. And college

chicks are very fickle. The hottie that won't give him the time of day, may think she's ultra sophisticated

banging the Classical music Instructor. Anyway, this topic is getting a bit long in the tooth for me. Bottom line,

and I guarantee it. Majority of his girlie friends look at him as another girlfriend and not a sexual person. I'm

out!

[Mick]

Me:

From now on, I'm going to be a ladies' man. I'm going to show [that girl who rejected me] that half the girls at

this college want to sleep with me.

She: I do.

Me: (grins) I'll hold you to that.

She:

(chuckles) Nah, that would be awkward, 'cause every time we see each other we'd just be thinking of

how GREAT the other night was. Besides, I've sworn off men. No, not really.

And that was the end

of that topic. I didn't get any more attention than usual from any of my female teachers.

---

I'll

continue testing and posting reports. Meanwhile, I've just ordered a box of Perception gel packs just because it

seemed like too good a deal to pass up; I can't wait to start experimenting with that.

Till next

time,
Valentine's Garden.

ok as you can see i've bolded & underlined some bits which I would like you

& everyone else to go over lol because it might be just me but sounds like SHE WANTS YOU!! go get em tiger

:thumbsup:

[Gegogi]

Okay, I have fond and clear

memories of being a staving music student at the university. Save a few mercy fucks and getting lucky at drunken

parties I went steady with Mary Palms. The problem wasn't that women weren't interested in me or I had difficulty

conversing with them. I spent too much time in practice room grinding my axe and was suffering from mildly severe

social retardation. I hung out with women all the time playing music, getting stoned, getting drunk, etc. I was such

a nerd I missed opportunities galore. Several women told me later they were tired of waiting for me to make a move

and gave up. I dully thought they only wanted to be friends. They were young and shy so no way would they make the

first move, unlike women a few years older. Could this be Valentine's problem today?

[valentines_garden]

ok as you

can see i've bolded & underlined some bits which I would like you & everyone else to go over lol because it might

be just me but sounds like SHE WANTS YOU!! go get em tiger :thumbsup:

I don't know... she's been

telling me about the various guys she had/has crushes on, and about how glad she was that her ex-boyfriend had just

broken up with his more recent girlfriend and her hope that she would get back together with him, etc. so I'm

clearly in her "friendzone". In any case, I'm not really interested in her romantically, though I certainly

wouldn't say no to sex if she ever comes on to me... :lol:

[DUKE3100]

My case and point is simple. To

be a man and not her girl friend...everyone is trying to say that in their own way....Gegogi included. Mones are a

small percentage. They are not going to make girls you have developed girl friendships with convert (where they talk

about having sex with other guys) My point is if you want to have girlfriends you are going to have to start

behaving more like a man not a girldfriend. Gegogi knows what he is doing and does it correctly. You do not. I know

cause I use to be like you.

[Mick]

ok why was my post not posted? I

didnt say anything offensive to my knowledge

[belgareth]

ok why was my post

not posted? I didnt say anything offensive to my knowledge

What post are you talking about? The last one

you did prior to this was at 2:08 this morning.

[Gegogi]

"...They are not going to

make girls you have developed girl friendships with convert (where they talk about having sex with other

guys)"
Funny you should mention that. I find when women talk about sex with other guys a turnoff and can

even deflate my ego. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean they don't want to jump your bones. During the last couple

years I dated two women, 22 and 26, both were married and talked about sex with their husbands way more than I cared

to hear about. They even talked about how much they loved their husbands! However, they couldn't get enough of my

little willie although I often got the "girlfriend" talk. Women are strange creatures.

[DUKE3100]

Funny you should

mention that. I find when women talk about sex with other guys a turnoff and can even deflate my ego. Nevertheless,

that doesn't mean they don't want to jump your bones. During the last couple years I dated two women, 22 and 26,

both were married and talked about sex with their husbands way more than I cared to hear about. They even talked

about how much they loved their husbands! However, they couldn't get enough of my little willie although I often

got the "girlfriend" talk. Women are strange creatures.

I am not sure what your point is here

Gegogi....but I can give you a cookie if you want.....You must be the master sex God....I bow in your

presence....:box: Most of us gotta follow the rules.

[belgareth]

I think you are looking at it

too rigidly and that's what Gegogi seems to be getting at. They aren't rules, they are guidelines. But they

aren't cast in stone either. There are thousands of exceptions to them or maybe you could say it falls in a series

of grey shades. Rather than stick to hard and fast rules be ready to show a bit of flexibility in your outlook an

women and you might have a few surprises.

[Mick]

What post are

you talking about? The last one you did prior to this was at 2:08 this morning. so sorry! me & my dang

impatientness *rolls eyes @ himself* at the time I wrote that my post clearly hadnt come through yet I see it now

:frustrate

[DUKE3100]

I think you

are looking at it too rigidly and that's what Gegogi seems to be getting at. They aren't rules, they are

guidelines. But they aren't cast in stone either. There are thousands of exceptions to them or maybe you could say

it falls in a series of grey shades. Rather than stick to hard and fast rules be ready to show a bit of flexibility

in your outlook an women and you might have a few surprises.

Well said....but i think that any action a

man gets when he presents himself as the harmless girlfriend ((which I do not think Gegogi does because he states

that he teases and flirts)) is despite those actions. Gegogi may indeed have sex with girls who he is girlfriends

with and talks with them about their sex with other men.....but it is his intellect and teaching authority....his

flirting and teasing that is what gets them into bed. That is the point that "I" am trying to make here. In this

gentlemans case he is in college. There is nothing to set him as a man to these women....especially if all he is

doing is listening to their problems and being nice and talking with them about their ex-boyfriends....he even

posted a post where the girl gave him an opening....and he didnt even try to take the bait!!! I am not saying that

you cannot be nice or be a women's friend....that is a part of the ingrediant....but what makes a women have sex

and be someones girlfriend....is attraction......and being her friend and listening to her problems and being nice

is not attractive....its not unattractive either....but it is not going to make the girl want to have sex or be with

you in a romantic way. Things like Alpha, Being a man, taking care of her in a masculin way, Having some sort of

social status or authority (like a teacher status), teasing, flirting, having a superior and witty personality,

intelligence.....these are things that are attractive to her and make her think of you in that way. She absolutely

must see you primarily as a man or the friend/nice stuff will not lead anywhere further. END OF STORY...

[CptKipling]

I

don't know... she's been telling me about the various guys she had/has crushes on, and about how glad she was that

her ex-boyfriend had just broken up with his more recent girlfriend and her hope that she would get back together

with him, etc. so I'm clearly in her "friendzone". In any case, I'm not really interested in her romantically,

though I certainly wouldn't say no to sex if she ever comes on to me... :lol:

I really hope that you

understand exactly how and how much I mean this: If you want a girl, make her want you and advance the relationship.

Worry about if she wants you after you have tried. Well actually worry about it never, but you get the point.

[Gegogi]

One thing I learned long ago is

you must break the rules sometimes to be sucessful. You can't do it all the time but an inspired and calulated risk

can payoff manyfold over "going by the book." In fact, artists are trained and expected to depart from the "rules"

ASAP or die a quick death due to a lack or originality.

As for our gardener, Valentine, he says he's a

talented musician. Speaking from experience, I know many women expect--usually assume--artists to be somewhat

deviant sexually and will do and say things with you they don't normally do with other guys. Artists are a mystery

and they want to explore you. Of course, they'll soon find out you're the same in the sack as everyone else.

However, they'll expect and let you get away with all sorts of hissy fits, kinky sex and drug induced zombie

behavior (I've long been drug free). Maybe Valentine should work on his mysterious artist vibe and use it to his

advantage.

[belgareth]

Flexibility and imagination is

the key rather than a rigid set of rules. Until I found this forum I had no clue there was even a set of rules.

Never had much trouble with getting laid either. Again, I may be seeing it from a different perspective because

I've never played the club scene. Never had any reason or desire to go that route. Plenty of other places with

fewer games.

Gegogi,

It's funny how opposite you and I are but we seemed to have learned very similar

lessons about life and females. I rarely have any disagreement with any of your thoughts about it.

[bjf]

there is a

possibility that pheromones are doing their job and the user isn't socially adept, good enough at picking up on

social nuances, to sense how act 1, scene 2 is unfolding, or doesn't know what to do with the energies that are

released when the -mone shifts happen. Face it, a lot of guys, probably the majority of guys, are poorly attuned to

minimal cues and what they might imply. So they have a memorized routine... be cocky and funny be cocky and funny be

cocky and funny... and they pour more of this on at every turn, and the woman is thinking "what is wrong with this

doofus he isn't listening to me ?" or more like "this pompous jerk is so into his shallow self there's no room for

me in this conversation"... or "this guy is hiding behind such an blatantly bad act" that they feel dumped on,

overloaded with stuff they don't care about, or they could see better on the Lifetime Channel... from experience

with many combinations of -mones the best connections are built from simple, uncomplicated, organic interchange,

underacted, underplayed, kind of minimal and rich at the same time... because I think at the root of it, all of us

want to be "felt", understood, gotten, acknowledged as a person, valued for what we are.... good verb, to value...

the pheromone may create that opening where it is okay to express something more intimate and personal in the middle

of an impersonal world, you know in a world full of cell phones and gadgets blinking shit, ring tones, poses,

celebrity cribs, and in the middle of all that crap a moment opens up and somebody snaps to what you're about....

that's cool, that's mystical... if you can get yourself in that place, and you have the -mones as your trusty

allies that will then put demands on your skills... -mones are funny that way because they open up so many more

possibilities that you might not have been prepared for, how many people have written "she was

agitated/flustered/aroused whatever and I didn't know what to do next" ?

i love your writing...

[jambat]

I don't

know... she's been telling me about the various guys she had/has crushes on, and about how glad she was that her

ex-boyfriend had just broken up with his more recent girlfriend and her hope that she would get back together with

him, etc. :lol:
Clearly the chick is not into you. Let her see what's happening with this old boyfriend

she wants to be with so much. In the mean time move on. If you two come back together, great if not, oh well.

There's more of them than there are of us. I mean why start making moves now. If she's free and clear and the

thing with her ex doesn't work out, then move in. Why? "her hope that she would get back together with him". That

speaks volumes to me. Her mind is with him, let it be.

-The Bat

[valentines_garden]

I

really hope that you understand exactly how and how much I mean this: If you want a girl, make her want you and

advance the relationship. Worry about if she wants you after you have tried. Well actually worry about it never, but

you get the point.

Well, read what I said again: I am NOT interested in this girl romantically. She's a

good friend, and that's all I'm looking for in her at the moment. If I was really interested in "advancing the

relationship", I would definitely make a move. I'm mostly looking at other girls, though this one's a good enough

friend that I can casually flirt with her without feeling awkward, so she's probably good to practice on...

[valentines_garden]

Clearly

the chick is not into you. Let her see what's happening with this old boyfriend she wants to be with so much. In

the mean time move on. If you two come back together, great if not, oh well. There's more of them than there are of

us. I mean why start making moves now. If she's free and clear and the thing with her ex doesn't work out, then

move in. Why? "her hope that she would get back together with him". That speaks volumes to me. Her mind is with him,

let it be.

-The Bat

Sigh... I'm NOT into her, and never was. Not sure how I gave that impression.

The girl I mentioned early in my first post (that rejected me and is now going out with someone else) is a different

girl. And, difficult though it was for a short period of time, I've moved on.

[DUKE3100]

Sigh... I'm NOT into her, and never was. Not sure how I gave that impression. The girl I

mentioned early in my first post (that rejected me and is now going out with someone else) is a different girl. And,

difficult though it was for a short period of time, I've moved on.

I am sure this thread has become

overwhelming for you....but you would be wise to take the advice. This girl or that girl or the girl under the bed

isnt the point here....and you know that. You have sent the message in many of your posts that you are struggling

with girls romantically and only seem to be consistant with making non-sexual friends out of girls. Dont let your

pride make you turn a cheek on the problem....or you will continue to have the problem. We are all trying to help

you. SOme of us may have been in your situation and can relate to it. This isnt an attack but none of us want to let

you go on with the impression that you can throw on some mones alone to solve this problem. If you want to succeed

in your goals you will need to combine mones with some actions. You are right....you should be practicing on girls

whether you want them or not. Now this conversation has started to get on my nerves as it has just become counter

productive and I have a strange feeling that you are only interested in some quick fix ((magic mones that turn

friends into lover)) or just "getting lucky"....There is nothing wrong with continueing to do what you do and hoping

someday a girl will decide she will give you a chance to turn her on....but if she does give you that chance I hope

you will know what to do...otherwise she will eventually leave you for the guy in the Porshe. Here is one more piece

of advice for you "my sweet little" valentine's garden......its best to be a man that sprinkles in the gardens and

valentines. Otherwise your flowers will end up being trampled eventually. I'M OUT.

[valentines_garden]

Well, that's my

point. I AM trying to practice on girls whether I want them or not. Quick fixes or getting lucky sound nice but I'm

not hedging my bets on them. I know it's going to take awhile to master the art of attracting girls but I'm going

to stick at it. I do appreciate all your advice and I am thinking them through and seeing how I can incorporate them

into my game plan. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was too proud to change my attitude about girls. I

have pride but I'm not letting it overrule practicality.

[DUKE3100]

Well,

that's my point. I AM trying to practice on girls whether I want them or not. Quick fixes or getting lucky sound

nice but I'm not hedging my bets on them. I know it's going to take awhile to master the art of attracting girls

but I'm going to stick at it. I do appreciate all your advice and I am thinking them through and seeing how I can

incorporate them into my game plan. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was too proud to change my attitude

about girls. I have pride but I'm not letting it overrule practicality.

Good to hear....I got a story

for everyone that expands on the trampled flower in the garden advice. My roomate met a girl a few weeks ago. I dont

know him that well but I know that the girl would always be in his room with the door open and that she kept

checking me out. This guy was cooking for her almost every night and ended up getting her a dozen roses....I

remember saying "Hey man where is *MY* dinner" it got everyone laughing.....It was soon after the dozen roses that

the fights started. Seems he was upsett that she was talking to some guy who she said is just a friend. They had

been together less than a month and it was over. The dude cooked her dinner and got her flowers. Text book to what a

man should do to show a women he is good for her right? Well wrong. This stuff is good to do ((with more

origionality/creativity and surprise in smaller occurance so as to not become predictable))...if she earns it after

some time together (more than a month). There are better ways to show your good side early on. Chances are if you

buy a dozen roses and go through a bunch of trouble to show her you are special you are going to be moving too fast

and getting too involved and putting your ego on the line thus diminishing your manhood with her. My game used to be

that I was the hero....the white knight....the savior to all women....I was a moron. The only game I had was getting

her to throw up in her mouth with my hopeless romantic antics.

[valentines_garden]

Good story. I learned

that from my previous experience -- she didn't want me, but I hoped that if I kept at it for long enough she would

eventually give in. I gave her a keychain with her name on it, and flowers. And then she started dating a useless

pothead. I realize now what an idiot I was. That's not going to happen to me again.

[belgareth]

There's a fine example of how

to screw up a relationship. Your roommate was not being a man he was being a supplicant and trying to by a

relationship. That might work one out of a thousand times but no more often than that. Then, she starts talking to

some other guy and he starts acting like an insecure, possessive idiot!

A point here, even a friendship is not

so one-sided. How many people are friends with somebody who simply takes from the relationship and never give

anything back? Whether its with a male or a female you are still a supplicant and a wimp. Anybody in that position

needs to stop, step back a couple paces and reevaluate what the hell they are doing with their lives. Otherwise they

are going to spend their whole life getting walked on and being a carpet is not a good way to live.

Geeze! Those

are just some basic rules of life in general.

Don't be a dorrmat is the very first one.

[DUKE3100]

YUP,

I haven't had the

heart to tell him what happened....I think he probably figured it out on his own anyways. It took me some time to

figure it out too. In todays society there is a lot of doormat literature out there that can be misinterpreted to

mean give everything of yourself and eventually it will be returned....sadly the world will eat you alive with that

mentality.

[belgareth]

I give a lot to the world but

it's by my choice and not with the hope of getting anything in return. I think its called altruism. But that's

altogether different from being a doormat.

[DUKE3100]

yup....


The problem I

used to have is that by nature I was very nice and very accomidating. I got off on making people's day and boosting

them up and doing things for others. I didnt do it for any benefit other than because I care about others....problem

is that most people become like parona when they meet someone like me and when I would put my foot down they would

treat me as if I was a jerk....so I cut the whole thing off real quick. My new motto has been go ****

yourself....and it has worked much better for me. I feel a little more empty than I used to...but when I do

something nice for someone now I still do it cause I care....and the person cares that I do it too.

[Gegogi]

There's actually a comfy middle

ground between "making everyone's day" and "go fcuk yourself!"

Well, Belgareth, I wish I knew the basic

rules of life 30 years ago! However, the basic and obvious usually isn't apparent when you're 18 to 20. You

usually need to attend the school of hard knocks for that. Heck, a lot of guys at that age are still experiencing

physical growth and lack facial hair.

[jambat]

Another thing just in general is

girls love attention. You stop giving it to them and you watch the reaction. I had a female friend say to me one

time "I miss the attention." What had happened? We were working at a company and when another girl came, who I

became actually interested in I must've stopped talking to my friend as much.

Ironically there was a mutual

attraction between me and her but she had a man and a child with him and know way was I going to get involved with

that unless she was to make a clean break with him and of course (as I figured they got back together). Also for

whatever reason my best female friends usually start off thinking I'm some kind of evil villain or something.



This one I started the post about originally thought I was some kind of greasy pimp (her words) and I don't

know what my current best female friend thought I was but she didn't like me and eventually we ended up being

friends. Weird.

-The Bat

[DUKE3100]

There's actually

a comfy middle ground between "making everyone's day" and "go fcuk yourself!"


Gegogi....I think

everyone else knows what I mean. Obviously I am not walking around like a jerk. My "go **** yourself is different

than yours or anyone else's definition. I will lead and I will make the world my reality and I will not allow

others to walk on me. I will do things on my terms. Its "if you dont like me or what I say its your problem and not

mine". Its if you truely like me than you will go out with me for me not because I buy you dinner. Thats my "go ****

yourself" Its not the jail birds version.

P.S I am in my 20's by the way and my learning process is opposite of

yours. I have learned I was too soft and too nice......now I am not and I sprinkle it in instead of pour it on like

salt. It works much better too. It doesnt mean we are in two different places. If you indeed do get that are half

your age I can assure you that it is not because you talk with them about their problems or their sex with other

guys....its for other "manly" reasons. Being a friend or their girlfriend or a crybaby or a wimp who doesnt dare

tease or flirt does not EVER get a girl. THe only girls it will get is the psycho ones. I dont care if you are The

Jedi of orgasm....you will never convince me otherwise.

[Gegogi]

Well, "go fcuk yourself" does

come off as sounding rather angry and bitter and doesn't really illustrate the underlying philosophy. I like to

hang loose and go with the flow. Err, that translates into "do things on my own terms but take a detour or two if it

feels good."

Actually women love to confess and confide in me, at least initially. It stops later when they

find out I'm a dickhead like all the other guys they know! Telling a guy they hardly know their secrets creates an

illusion of intimacy. At that time they feel close to me and trust me. Now I could blow the moment by acting like a

priest or counselor. I just listen and utter a few sensible comments and stroke them with mild flirting and teasing.

I continue to demonstrate my interest with eye contact, smiles and body language. Nothing over the top, but obvious

to all but the dimmest. Young women seem to be impressed with authority and confidence so I act out their little

fantasy if I'm really in good form. Thus, they share a "girlfriend moment," feel close, make an emotional

connnection but know without a doubt I see them as a woman and have a big cock ready and waiting for them. Some of

them leave so shaken they appear as those they may wet themselves (I'd like that). I'm sure the NPA helps too.

However, they always come back for more.

[DUKE3100]

Sounds good....

[Rbt]

Thoughts:

#1 I wish I knew then

what I know now.... (have learned over the years) <sigh>

#2 No battle plan survives first contact with the

enemy.

#3 You need to *observe* and alter your approach/behavior as the situation changes

(salesmanship/diplomacy/etc.).

#4 Maybe improv comedy would be better to practice than a speech class... but

acting sure does help.

#5 I find as the years go by I regret more many of the things I *didn't* do rather than

the things I *did* do.

#6 see #1... <sigh>

[DUKE3100]

Thoughts:

#1 I

wish I knew then what I know now.... (have learned over the years) <sigh>



I dont get this saying. I

hear it all the time from the older folks. Maybe when I get older I will understand.... but right now this is my

take:

Its just another excuse. When your young its cause you dont know what to do or are hesitant or shy or this

or that....then when you get older its easier just to blame it on that. Its easier to say Yea I wish I would have

been as brave as I am now back then....now I am brave but I am too old.....

It all seems like another excuse to

me. I realize the older you get the harder it is to get a young women. I dont dispute that. Heck....its not as easy

for me and I am only in my 20's....but my chances at social interaction are less since I have been out of school so

i get less cracks at the bat but I have a higher batting average.....you see?

I think the bottom line here

though people is that in life there are always going to be excuses and barriers and things making it difficult to

achieve something that has any merit or importance to you....but no matter who or what or how old you are there are

always going to be obstacles and there are always going to be people facing the same obstacles that were able to

succeed....why? They dont waste their time thinking about what they cant do something or coming up with

excuses....they go for the gold and when they are knocked down...they get back up. Just some food for thought.

[Mtnjim]

I dont get this

saying. I hear it all the time from the older folks. Maybe when I get older I will understand....

You

got it right there!
Therre is an old saying:
"The difference between the old and the young is the old have

already made the stupid mistakes the young haven't had time to make."

See, the older people aren't "wiser",

they just have "experiance"!

[Gegogi]

I realize the older you

get the harder it is to get a young women. I dont dispute that.
This really depends on the older man. For

me, it has never been easier. I realize it is some magical combination of opportunity, persona, appearance and

pheromones. Whatever, the poon is abundant. However, abundant poon means abundant problems, e.g., emotional and

social complications. I've gotten myself into more messes the last couple years due to dating younger women than my

entire life. I'm just really coming to grips with being single and trying to obey the small, still voice in the

back of my head. Yesterday my former GF, now 24, screamed at me for ruining her life. Her husband tossed her out and

divorced her because of my poor judgement. Since then I've been keeping little willie at bay but, sheesh, it's

really hard to just say no...

[belgareth]

It isn't all that difficult to

meet younger women but I'm around women of all ages for at least part of almost every day. It wouldn't be much

trouble at all to get into lots of trouble.

You are right Duke, and I am not trying to offend you, but you

don't get it. None of us did at your age either. There's nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I'd be

surprised if you did get it at your age. Don't worry about it, getting older happens to everybody or almost. :) As

part of getting older we all learn things. There's just no way that a man your age can have the experiences and

accumulated knowledge if somebody our ages.

[Rbt]

I dont get this

saying. I hear it all the time from the older folks. Maybe when I get older I will understand.... but right now this

is my take:

Its just another excuse. When your young its cause you dont know what to do or are hesitant or shy

or this or that....then when you get older its easier just to blame it on that. Its easier to say Yea I wish I would

have been as brave as I am now back then....now I am brave but I am too old.....

It all seems like another

excuse to me. I realize the older you get the harder it is to get a young women. I dont dispute that. Heck....its

not as easy for me and I am only in my 20's....but my chances at social interaction are less since I have been out

of school so i get less cracks at the bat but I have a higher batting average.....you see?

I think the bottom

line here though people is that in life there are always going to be excuses and barriers and things making it

difficult to achieve something that has any merit or importance to you....but no matter who or what or how old you

are there are always going to be obstacles and there are always going to be people facing the same obstacles that

were able to succeed....why? They dont waste their time thinking about what they cant do something or coming up with

excuses....they go for the gold and when they are knocked down...they get back up. Just some food for

thought.

Not an excuse, but more of a reason. And I didn't "get it" till I got older either...

[DUKE3100]

Ok guys I will bite. First off

I am saying I dont get the saying...and at my age i think it is just another excuse. I am not saying I dont get it

when it comes to girls, and I am man enough to not have to beat my own chest about my success in that field. I will

give you the benefit of the doubt and say that when I get to be your age maybe I will get the meaning behind that

saying. With all due respect to your "experience" I am going to ask you to walk the walk and drop the talk. What is

it that you know now that is so special that you didnt know at my age? Why dont you enlighten me my jedi masters??

lol. What is it that you know that is better than the people who make their living off giving advice about women or

that makes you better than us?? and while we are at it why dont you enlighten us "youngsters" as to what it is you

would do with your newfound experience and knowledge that we dont get if you could of had it at our age?? That way

we can have what you never did...we can have that knowledge now and put it to use....since we are so

clueless....Forgive me if I am a little testy here but I am not the kind of person that just gives the benefit of

the doubt...you gotta earn it with me. I am sure a lot of us on this site would love to know your little secrets

that you say we dont know. I can tell you one thing...I thought I knew everything too. Its easy to think you have it

figured out when you are in a happy longterm relationship or marriage. If a successful relationship is the marker

for success though than why is it that there is over a 50 percent divorce rate? Saying yea your right Duke you dont

get it is horsecrap to me....lets hear what "it" is.

[Gegogi]

Sheesh Duke, you must have ate a

little too much turkey today! There is no definite "it." You now have more life experience than you did at age 15

and surely have learned from your mistakes and successes, tweaking your technique and behavior as you go through

life. Ten years out from now you'll laugh at some of the silly things you did in your 20s. Now I am talking about

life in general--business, friendships, love, family, etc.--not just getting poon tang.

I personally don't

see a successful love relationship as a lifelong marriage. That would be really boring. For some yes, but most of us

we tire of a relationship or grow out of it and need to move along. Success is being able to do what you love with

whom you love. If that changes from year to year or decade to decade, that is just as successful in my book as

someone doing what they love with their soul mate 'til death do they part. Different strokes for different folks.

My grandfather (early 20th century Korea) had 5 wives (concubines) and he was happy. 5 wives at once would drive me

nuts. The 10 kids he had would make me flee...

Incidentally I too wish I knew what I know now 25 years ago. I

would have avoided a hoe lotta mistakes and detours. However, you need to experience the entire ride to learn the

lesson. Sure I still screw up royal. But things are a lot easier now than back in the day, so I must be gettin'

pretty dad burn smooth.

[DUKE3100]

Sheesh Duke, you

must have ate a little too turkey today!

You can say that again...and way too much pie too....after

this post I am headin to bed!! Your post was very enlightening and it sure did help me with my perspective on

relationships....I still dont get what "it" is though. Can't anyone put it into words???

[surfs_up]

when I was younger I only had ONE perspective.... my big fat EGO... how sad is that ? With age and infirmity comes,

hopefully, the appreciation to see relationships, personal interactions, communities, as the coming together of many

perspectives... some you can easily understand and appreciate, some you can't... now I try to see the moment from

each participant's *probable* perspective (excuse the alliteration).... I will never know in absolute detail how

each sees reality so it is a best guess thing... if a sexy girl shows me some interest I still ask myself as many

questions as I can think of about her, who is she ?, what does she want ?, what are her fears ? what do I mean to

her ? what else is going on in her life ? does she want to be rescued from a bad relationship ? does she need a

sperm donor so she can have her baby ? a green card perhaps ? a wise old savior figure ? a sugar daddy ? someone to

show her how she can piece her life togehter ? how deep is she ?, can she hold my interest with more than her

appearance ? is she rigidly defined by some external image or is she capable of growth ? does she welcome the chance

to grow or does will she only motivate herself to grow and change as a last resort ? Does she have a quick

spontaneous wit or does she repeat a list of cliches ? Is she highly adaptable or does she only function in a

pre-defined environment, her "comfort zone", does she have good taste in clothes, people, ideas, beliefs or is she

crude ? Can she offer insightful constructive criticism or does she just get pissed off and say needless things ?

does she have any idea how to make a good relationship work ? Is she empathetic ? I really, really, really like to

get tot the bottom or halfway to the bottom of such questions before becoming all tangled up THEN finding out...

[DUKE3100]

[QUOTE=surfs_up]when I was

younger I only had ONE perspective.... my big fat EGO... how sad is that ? [QUOTE]

Whats sad is how many females

are turned on by a big ego. My dream girl is a girl that I can give my heart with no ego and keep her love and

respect. Unfortunately most women seem attracted to ego and other stuff in that relation. Maybe its because I am

kind of a bad boy and have a leather jacket and come across lookwise as a strong guy. Maybe its just the

advertisement I inadvertantly give off. At my core I am an very intelligent, deep, philisophical, caring, hopeless

romantic who loves a great sunset or the spotaneality of the moment. Who can say what he feels and be real with a

woman. These days I find its better to keep on some armor and put up walls until I can figure out that stuff you

speak of. Once I figure it out if it meets what I am looking for I can open up a little more and be less of a Clint

Eastwood or Eminem and more of a Don Juan or Loverboy but when push comes to shove and you go to bed at night all

you truely can rely on in this life is yourself. If you live your life for others and care about how they percieve

you than you lack character and heart. If you sell out on yourself who else is going to have your back? Sure a great

lover comes by here and there and you fall in love and time stands still.....I have been there.....but without self

pride and respect.....without some sort of an ego to protect yourself from the harsh world....it will all come

tumbling down and you will be left with no one to point the finger at except yourself. You write a great passage and

I love your skills. You make great points and when it comes to finding the right women you have it nailed to a

tee....but the "it" the experienced older guys speak of is still some what of a mystery to me. If your saying that

"it" is that if you stay true to yourself and know what you want than you will find it....then that is probably the

closest and best description I could possible think of for "it".

[surfs_up]

time.

There are those who love and cling to

their Comfort Zone and there are those who step to the edge, in an intelligent way (very often, in our media

culture, "edgy" means taking unnecessary risks or acting out in childish, demanding, offensive ways... like in the

60s we had the same delusions about being "creative"... as in any useless, self indulgent crap was justified as long

as you were being "creative"... man we saw some awful bad self expression as a result....phew!)... so, a guy whose

joined up with the Special Forces may have pushed his edge in one way, a guy who'se gone through the Defense

Language School and mastered Pashto, then joined a Buddhist monestary and lived there for five years.... that guy

has seriously pushed his edge where one push means grasping a perspective 180 degrees out of phase with his first

one... it's deeper that switching out one look for another look, you have to figure out ways of living that open up

your head to the complexities and ambiguities of life... 'cause too many life situations are narrow and mentally

narrowing... and fashion and lifestyles and things like that are marketed as pseudo freedoms from all these ghettos

our heads can become frozen in... unltimately what distinguishes you is having something to say that is real,

personal, specific, and valuable that you and you alone could have learned and mastered from living.

[Gegogi]

I haven't noticed a trend with

women preferring guys with big ego. Maybe buku confidence, fat wallet and/or jumbo wang. It seems to me getting your

head stuck in the doorway would be a turn-off to most women.

[Watcher]

some women prefer it but a lot

comes down to their own personal preferences

[Rbt]

Quick comments in general: there it

too much to life to sum all of "it" up. My comment was generic in nature as well, applicable to all aspects of life.



Right now, in terms of "women" etc., all someone would have to do is read the past posts on this forum from us

ancient ones.

One thing I've learned (out of many many things) is that "it's" not always black and white,

there are many shades of grey. Many paths lead to the same destination. Just as two snowflakes are unlikely to be

exactly alike, so it goes with everything in nature.

I've noted that at least one of the "successful dating

gurus" Duke speaks of really only targets ONE of his 8 "successful" personality types (that he talks about in one of

his "mini-ebooks), and no one, not even him, claims 100% success even there. Yes, I see wisdom in some of his

teachings, and like us old farts, he too is speaking from a degree of experience, and I notice from his reputed

sales, enough others (including me) consider themselves "clueless" enough to buy or at least consider his (and the

other's he interviews) knowledge/experiences.

Enough for now...

PS Asking what "it" is sorta reminds me of

when Deep Thought was asked for the answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything... (Hitchhiker's Guide to the

Galaxy)

[Gegogi]

Why Rbt, you wise old goat, I

tend to see life in many shades of gray too. Sure there are some absolutes but as I trekked the road of life my

rigid ideals slowly but surely merged to a continuum. I'm happier, more successful and open to new things because

of this flexibilty.

[belgareth]

There are few absolutes in life

other than those we impose on ourselves. Duke has it right about being true to oneself and that is one of the

absolutes. Otherwise, the world has more than six billion people and no two are alike. It's silly to imagine the

same methods and thought patterns pertain to all of them. You have to exercise judgement and work with the

individual if you are going to be successful at anything for any length of time. Of course, the fact that they are

all different is what makes them so interesting and entertaining. The challenge never ends. The varying shades of

grey are almost infinate.

I think that realization, that there are shades of grey in all facets of dealing with

life, is the biggest and hardest lesson to learn.

[DUKE3100]

Now that we

are on shades of grey and really deep I will add my 2 cents. I agree that "it" has to do with grey and that was kind

of what my point was in addressing what "it" really is. We all find our "it" in different ways based not only on our

experiences but also how we view those experiences. An event alone does not shape the event, it is only the event

combined with your reaction that determines a given outcome. My experience was a 5 year relationship which still

sometimes haunts me even 5 months later. There is a lesson to be learned in everything in life. The lesson that I

was to learn here was to never sell yourself out for someone else. To always stay true to yourself and know when to

cut your losses. The final year of this relationship was torture because I was so stubborn that I ignored the fact

that we were wrong for each other and thought I could compromise everything I stood for and make things work. The

problem was she was never willing to compromise anything. Why should she....I would always be the one to do it! lol.

When I asked for her to meet me half way it was the beginning of the end. I had built a relationship on what I could

bring to her and what I could be to her....I forgot to look or even care what she could bring to me. We were from

drastically different backgrounds and there were just too many obstacles to overcome. I saw plenty of grey for too

long in this one....and In the end I paid the price. "it" is grey and different for everyone based on their

individual experiences. That is why I have never NOT enjoyed a good debate. I respect the hell out of all of you

that have posted to this thread. I just dont always agree. Gegogi is hit or miss with me for instance. Sometimes he

really hits home and nails it....other times he is way off....my experience in life has been drastically

different....and I suspect the cultures that surround us are also different....however we have both found success

with women. This is proof that there is grey in the world and that if you stay true to yourself and stay strong and

have a big heart....success comes in many shapes and sizes.... I think the conclusion to other posts is exactly as I

suspected when I brought it to light. There is no "it".....life just isnt that simple. There are constants though.

Confidence and staying true to yourself and being a man....those are constants. Some on here will argue with the

"being a man" constant. To them I simply say that there are many different ways to be a man and if you do enough of

them so that you are doing more man things than weak feminine or girl things....than you will usually be

successful.

[DUKE3100]

I haven't

noticed a trend with women preferring guys with big ego. Maybe buku confidence, fat wallet and/or jumbo wang. It

seems to me getting your head stuck in the doorway would be a turn-off to most women.

What does head

stuck in the doorway mean?? Are you talking about inserting into the vagina?

I feel big ego is interchangeable

with self respect and confidence....They mean the same to me.

[DUKE3100]

I've noted that

at least one of the "successful dating gurus" Duke speaks of really only targets ONE of his 8 "successful"

personality types (that he talks about in one of his "mini-ebooks), and no one, not even him, claims 100% success

even there. Yes, I see wisdom in some of his teachings, and like us old farts, he too is speaking from a degree of

experience, and I notice from his reputed sales, enough others (including me) consider themselves "clueless" enough

to buy or at least consider his (and the other's he interviews) knowledge/experiences.


DD has some

very interesting teachings from what I have seen. I only have his origional ebook and have read his internet free

stuff. I dont think he is right about a lot of stuff but I think there are some basic things he hits head on but

just doesnt know how to explain in a way that makes much real world sense. I agree with everything you say on this.

Where I do agree with DD is on his biological concepts and how he feels they manifest. There are some basic things

that a lot know but some dont...that he is dead on with. We all know to get a girl you dont act like one. That only

works for the rare person that has a bunch of complex things going his way (Gegogi). It certainly would not and has

not worked for me and I wouldn't do it anyways. In fact if a girl really wins me over and I start acting a little

sappy or girly it kills the attraction between us. Everyone should know that what attracts a women on a biological

sexual level is a strong man. A bad boy or adventuring risk taker or a deep intelligent philosophical person. Not

the Therapist or the whiner or the crybaby. Then again some of the stuff he tells you to say is just retarded. He

also takes things too far a lot with some of his concepts. His basic teaching and theory makes complete sense when i

look back on mistakes and successes and try to look at the behavior that may have cause my successes and failures.

Some of his ways of practicing his theory or carrying it out is close to insanity however. I fear for the teenagers

who get ahold of his stuff and practice it word for word instead of just being themselves and trying to become more

of a man from within.

[Gegogi]

I feel big ego is

interchangeable with self respect and confidence....They mean the same to me.
Having big ego is a

negative thing and is normally used as a criticism or derogatory comment. Someone with a big ego is a narcissist

suffering from an over inflated image of their abilities and self-worth. They make poor leaders and team players. In

other words, a self-centered ass. Having self-respect and supreme confidence in your real abilities comes with the

terriority of being a real man.

[DUKE3100]

Having big ego is

a negative thing and is normally used as a criticism or derogatory comment. Someone with a big ego is a narcissist

suffering from an over inflated image of their abilities and self-worth. They make poor leaders and team players. In

other words, a self-centered ass. Having self-respect and supreme confidence in your real abilities comes with the

terriority of being a real man.

So in your definition T.O would be a great example of someone with a big

ego right?

[valentines_garden]

Who's T.O.?

[surfs_up]

If you're Donald Trump you can have a free pass on the oversized ego and

still have people happy to call you MISTER Trump and even he's a lot mellower and politically savvy behind the

scenes.... the man is, however, seriously determined to achieve his goals. Time Magazine recently had an article on

what it took to succeed. The one quality that stood out above all others was *tenacity*, the power to motivate

yourself and stick to a project. If you have a huge ego and no tenacity, you're a massive jerk waiting to be blown

off. Develop abilities, learn to cook, (something, anything... have about 6 things you can do as well as any

restaurant), ballroom dancing is excellent, you have to learn to sense fine changes in your partner and flow as a

unit (is there any wonder that once upon a time this art was considered essential to social development ? ) ,live

overseas and experience people who aren't exisiting in your political groove, join a Second City or Upright

Citizens Brigade improv group and flex your comedic skills.... anything... multiple anythings, get out of your rut

as many ways as you possibly can before it is dug so deep there's no way to see over the top.

[belgareth]

The local high schools have doing this project where adult role models are

asked to give a talk to freshman high school classes on what they need to succede in the world. We stress education

both in depth and variety but more importantly, we stress the other factors. The social skills that combine with

work ethic to make a person a real valuable employee rather than one of the crowd. Part of the point is that you can

have a tremendous education and work your butt off but unless you can work with others, have the right attitude

about your work and be flexible in your outlook you will not be all that great an employee. Others with less

education but better social skills will likely move ahead of you. Being able to justify yourself is not nearly so

important as being open to learning and working with people cooperatively.

[surfs_up]

there are soooo many times when I've personally seen someone who had most of the ingredients

for success in business, with women or men, socially, any interpersonal area, blown clean out of the water by some

tendency or quirk that they can't see or refuse to see. There was a sexy girl who had the worst, most obnoxious,

piercing laugh that she would squawk out every 30 seconds, it was like she was unconsciously trying to piss everbody

off, which she did an excellent job of, or a guy I remember from a corporate setting who was constantly licking his

lips in the weirdest way, like he was expressing a forbidden fantasy nonstop, everybody just ran from this guy... or

in character acting classes where someone changes place with me and I with him, I take on his persona and he takes

on mine, it was really shocking to see myself the first time this way, good and bad, warts and all... I instantly

got why others would respond to me the way they did, straighened my ass up real quick.... dayummmm, I was coming off

like THAT ! Ahem..... cough.... OUCH!!!!!!!!!

maybe we should all read :
VITAL LIES SIMPLE TRUTHS: The

Psychology of Self Deception by Daniel Goleman

[DUKE3100]

Who's

T.O.?

Terell Owens of the Eagles Nfl football team. He is one of the best at his position in the game

right now but he was suspended for the rest of the year for contact detrimental to the team. Basically his passion

for the game is based solely on his own personal gain. He looks out for himself first and foremost. This is not a

bad thing if you are ethical and have some respect and compassion unfortunately he feels the need to illustrate this

by putting his teamates and organization down publically.

[surfs_up]

arrogant assholes have their place, like at the head of the line into the

slaughterhouse... looks like the ideal 21st century Alpha Man is better balanced than his 20th century primate

counterpart, master team player instead of rough tough mister stud... you gotta have mucho self knowledge with a

focus on understanding your real abilities and limits, since a lot of young guys don't, the man with high self

knowledge has a powerful advantage in love, sex, and business...

[DUKE3100]

arrogant

assholes have their place, like at the head of the line into the slaughterhouse... looks like the ideal 21st century

Alpha Man is better balanced than his 20th century primate counterpart, master team player instead of rough tough

mister stud...

I have met and been friends or acquantances with plenty of Alpha guys who were very much

typical to the extreme. I have roomed with many alpha guys. An alpha is an alpha and just like anybody else they

have their strengths and their weaknesses. Their strenth tends to be in social likability and manhood. Some are more

caring and compassionate and confident than others but all of them are alpha because they back up their words in

some way or another. Some alpha guys are arrogant and others are not arrogant. Regardless of that another constant

is they sure as hell do not care what someone else thinks about them. I have always believed that the real man, the

pure alpha male, will brush off the jealousy or the tendancy others may have to seek approval from him in some form

or another....the true alpha needs not even address it. However I have met many and roomed with many that will

completely destroy and humiliate someone who comes after them out of their own insecurities or judgement. I have met

some that even go after a clearly innocent person to make their point and establish their dominance to the group. A

leader who tends to draw attention that has something about their personality and character that draws others is the

easiest way I can think of to describe alpha. There are jerky or aggressive alpha men and there are confident and

laid back alpha men. I pride myself on being the latter. I dont even need or want the spotlight yet It seems in a

group I am often handed it. Some alphas even start out one way and end up another way ((Watch Scarface)). Some live

by the law and others dont. None give a damn what anyone thinks...especially those that symbolize crabs in a jar

trying to drag them back to their level. So no.... I gotta disagree here. I mean there are differences between an

alpha of 21st century but the basic definitions and variations of the personality remain the same. I definately

think that an Alpha is a team player in a sense but I can also tell you that an Alpha will stick up for his way of

thinking and for what he believes in and if you want to contest him...teammate or not....you will have your hands

full. That has been my experience with the real hardcore guys anyways. Personally I believe there is room for

variance in opinion and that everyone has a point. It comes down to which point is your point of view in the end

though.

[surfs_up]

Authority comes from many things, having good judgement and being recognized for it,

being a good leader, a sense of fairness, basically being seen as a quality person who has the guts to take care of

things that others might shy away from, being a good negotiator, not constantly having to overcompensate for

something missing by putting on a big macho act... authority is something that people sense but can't

define...

Intimidation or being overbearing is different material, it's based on missing the capacity to

feel what someone else is going through or rule through brute thuggishness.

If you have real authority you

rise to the top of organizations, if all you're riding on is a capacity to intimidate the best job you'll get is

the bouncer or doorman at a club, or the equivalent of that.

People with authority are excellent listeners,

although they aren't pushovers, they know how to analyse situations, and they aren't easily offended, because they

know the value of just criticism and the importance of hearing things that the don't immediately agree

with.

Intimidators hear criticism (or just plain accurate observations) as a personal affront, let me

rephrase that, they DON'T hear criticism... they tune it out, shout it down, or banish it from their little

kingdoms... they love to tell others what jerks and assholes they are, especially persons who aren't in a position

to respond directly... they eventually WILL learn one of the most basic rules of life...

Goes like this: "be

nice to the people you meet on your way up, because you'll meet them again on your way down"

no truer words

were ever spoken.

[belgareth]

An alpha, which is a term used

to describe natural orders, is a leader. The alpha is responsible for the well being of those around him. Thus a

true alpha would never slam his teammates. Instead, he would be doing his best to help them to be better at what

they do. Slamming them only serves to demoralize the whole group and that is bad for the teams performance.



I've known lots of very talented jackasses, the lack of an alpha's characteristics does not preclude their

ability to rise in corporations or society in general. Those that you describe may be alphas by your defination but

not by any realistic defination based on the true meaning of the term.

[DUKE3100]

I've known

lots of very talented jackasses, the lack of an alpha's characteristics does not preclude their ability to rise in

corporations or society in general. Those that you describe may be alphas by your defination but not by any

realistic defination based on the true meaning of the term.

No no Belgareth....I am not talking about

jerks or jackasses. I am talking about Alpha males. Sadly just because you are a jerk or a jackass does not strip

that Alpha title. You can define it however you want to based on any definition you want. An Alpha male is simply

the leader or dominant male to males in a social circle and females want his cock. There are no rules to their

personality that strip their Alpha title. Now I have no time to debate what a Alpha male is with you. I gotta go get

a buzz on. Besides I believe this has been done more than once before....Peace.:cheers:

[DUKE3100]

Authority comes

from many things, having good judgement and being recognized for it, being a good leader, a sense of fairness,

basically being seen as a quality person who has the guts to take care of things that others might shy away from,

being a good negotiator, not constantly having to overcompensate for something missing by putting on a big macho

act... authority is something that people sense but can't define...

Intimidation or being overbearing is

different material, it's based on missing the capacity to feel what someone else is going through or rule through

brute thuggishness.

If you have real authority you rise to the top of organizations, if all you're riding on

is a capacity to intimidate the best job you'll get is the bouncer or doorman at a club, or the equivalent of

that.

People with authority are excellent listeners, although they aren't pushovers, they know how to analyse

situations, and they aren't easily offended, because they know the value of just criticism and the importance of

hearing things that the don't immediately agree with.

Intimidators hear criticism (or just plain accurate

observations) as a personal affront, let me rephrase that, they DON'T hear criticism... they tune it out, shout it

down, or banish it from their little kingdoms... they love to tell others what jerks and assholes they are,

especially persons who aren't in a position to respond directly... they eventually WILL learn one of the most basic

rules of life...

Goes like this: "be nice to the people you meet on your way up, because you'll meet them

again on your way down"

no truer words were ever spoken.

:goodpost:

That is one of the best

posts I have ever seen on this site. Good one Dude!!:thumbsup:

[belgareth]

No no

Belgareth....I am not talking about jerks or jackasses. I am talking about Alpha males. Sadly just because you are a

jerk or a jackass does not strip that Alpha title. You can define it however you want to based on any definition you

want. An Alpha male is simply the leader or dominant male to males in a social circle and females want his cock.

There are no rules to their personality that strip their Alpha title. Now I have no time to debate what a Alpha male

is with you. I gotta go get a buzz on. Besides I believe this has been done more than once

before....Peace.:cheers:
It's been done time and again. Despite that, and despite your opinion, there is a

real genuine scientific definition for an alpha and what you described does not fit that description in either the

animal kingdom or in modern psychology.

[Gegogi]

Terell Owens is a lone wolf, not

an alpha male.

[surfs_up]

yeah, it's true I've seem 'em as well; weasels, liars, creeps, manipulators, general head cases,

selfish slimeballs that have been exceptioanlly effective and/or successful... so I don't know how far this alpha

distinction perfectly accounts for everything out there... there's a valuable book about the sociopatic personality

by Martha Stout PhD, "The Sociopath Next Door"... she's a specialist in the sociopathic disorder and knows whereof

she speaks... according to her "life is reduced to a contest...controlling others-winning-is more compelling than

anything or any else...they theorize that all people are the same-unscrupulous, like them - but theorize that all

people are dishonestly playacting something mythical called conscience... (and here's a fascinating part) what

sociopaths envy, and may seek to destroy as part of the game, is usually something in the character structure of a

person with a conscience, and strong characters are often specially targeted by sociopaths (!wow)... and... the

intense charm of people who have no conscience, a kind of inexplicable charisma...yet... actively campaigns for your

sympathy"... this book was pretty mind boggling, and I have no doubt that a certain percentage of hardcore seduction

players are sociopaths or borderline sociopaths that have mastered the benevolent Alpha disguise... something to

ponder

[belgareth]

Thanks, Surfs up. I'll look it

up, it sounds like it may be good reading.

No, I'm not trying to get picky about semantics but you can't

really have a debate when basic terms used in the debate have completely different meanings. It seems reasonable to

use correct definitions to avoid confussion.

My ex-mother in law is a PhD psychologist. We've had numerous

conversations on the subject of dominance and the relationship between the animal kingdom and us humans. A lot of it

is extremely uncomplimentary to us people. Between what I learned in collge and what she taught me I believe you've

hit it right on the money with the sociopathy comments.

While it was fiction, much of the character Hannibal

Lector is based on good phychological principle. He would be the epitome of a true sociopath. Without the

cannibalism you can see many examples of the same behavoir in society, as you described.

[DUKE3100]

It's been

done time and again. Despite that, and despite your opinion, there is a real genuine scientific definition for an

alpha and what you described does not fit that description in either the animal kingdom or in modern

psychology.

I went and did a search to the Free dictionary just for you man. Here was one of the

definitions:

Being the highest ranked or most dominant individual of one's sex. Used of social animals



Thats just another way of saying what I was saying.

[DUKE3100]

Terell Owens is a

lone wolf, not an alpha male.

True...I was using T.O as an example of someone with too much of a BIG

EGO.

[DUKE3100]

I have no doubt

that a certain percentage of hardcore seduction players are sociopaths or borderline sociopaths that have mastered

the benevolent Alpha disguise... something to ponder

I think your probably right. A player that is so

deep in that all he cares about is the next girl he will land with a game that has nothing to do with his

personality either

A) has an extreme case of nimphomania

B) Is acting on deep desires to be an actor

C)

Has some sort of mental disorder like a gambler

D) Is a sociopath (This one is a little far fetched but I am

sure sociopaths are well versed with their skills, especially those that prey on women)

[belgareth]

I went and did

a search to the Free dictionary just for you man. Here was one of the definitions:

Being the highest ranked or

most dominant individual of one's sex. Used of social animals

Thats just another way of saying what I was

saying.

That's an over-simplification but I think you know that. I imagine you could describe your work

in a single sentence too. But I also imagine it would take at least a page and probably a lot more to really tell

what you do. There are volumes written on what comprises an alpha characteristic and that doesn't even begin to

touch it.

[surfs_up]

some

studies of baboon societies have shown that good leadership and destructive leadership in the highest rank male

depends a lot on the "character" of the animal. Baboons can have generous, kind, nurturing father figure type Alpha

that sometimes are replaced, by age, combat, or "invasion" by an outside group with bad-Alphas that are surly,

vindictive, murderous.... and determined to produce large numbers of offspring like themselves. One interesting

thing is that the baboon societies will tolerate this warped Alpha conduct up to a point, when there can be

spontaneous rebellions by the female members of the clan who will mob, injure, and possibly bite to death the

bad-Alpha, unless he is unusually powerful and intimidating. If the bad-Alpha survives he ususally is demoted to the

lowest social position and has to earn his place back. In one case a baboon clan was taken over by bad-Alpha stock

who dominated the food supply, leaving all the betas to forage while the Alpha inner circle got to feast on the town

dump out in Kenya somewhere... sadly for the Alpha crowd, there was a tuberculosis epidemic in the village, and all

the Alphas died swiftly from TB, leaving a pure Beta population, which shunned the village and the dump, lacking the

Alpha fearlessness of humans.... the primate zoologists studying this baboon society observed that the clan, now

free of the bad-Alpha element (and their genetics too ?) reorganized itself into a harmonious, well behaved society

and returned to the bush and appeared to thrive doing tradtional monkey things and staying well away from humans. I

don't know if there is a relationship between bad-Alphaness in monkeys and sociopathy or anti-social behavior in

humans, however sociopathic and related personalities are noted for a love of adventure and excessive risk taking,

they have a diminished experience of fear, they don't form lasting emotional bonds, and they are highly promiscuous

(all of that is a recipe for a playa on several levels).... this is supposedly why the sociopathic genes persist in

modern humans, they produce a lot of unclaimed kids, according to Dr. Stout, about 1:25 people today has some degree

of sociopathic disorder... actually, a moderate dose of it may make certain people highly effective in jobs where

hustling and getting over is required.... anybody remember a company down in Houston known as Enron ?

[Gegogi]

"I don't know if there is

a relationship between bad-Alphaness in monkeys and sociopathy or anti-social behavior in humans..."
I'm

sure there is. Some of our highest ranking political and business leaders certainly are now treading this path.

However if being highly promiscuous is a sociopathic trait, I guess I have some of those genes.

[DUKE3100]

highly

promiscuous is a sociopathic trait, I guess I have some of those genes.

I dont know about sociopathic

for you Gegogi but I definately think you fit into the nimpho category. lol.

[surfs_up]

read the book if you want detailed information. Guys who have some of the sociopathic cluster will appear to the

naive outside world as the greatest pick up artists, they will have exactly what it takes... complete lack of self

consciousness, not embarrassable (real 'paths simply lack the mechanism to be embarrassed, they have never

experienced the feeling), very good at sensing the weaknesses of their targets, intensely charming, temporarily make

others feel special or unsually alive, seem to have a magical sense of rapport... face it, these persons (there are

numerous women who fit this category too) don't need pheromones or pick up manuals, they have all they need walking

in the door. They are nature's born masters of the pick up. All those how-to flip books for horny guys are

lets-pretend-we're-marginal-sociopath cartoons. According to Stout, only a small percentage are the stereotype

crazed violent axe murderer, most of them have fit smoothly and invisibly into society and are experts on doing

their business on the sly... think about the stats here, 1 in 25 is in some way, shape, or form... thus if you go

into a large crowded hump bar on Happy Hunting Hump Nite and there's 200 people in there, the numerical odds are

that 8 of them will be the slickest pros you ever laid eyes on... and you may be wondering, how the hell does that

guy do that ???... is is it always a guy, cause, 4 of 'em might be women who are experts at picking out the rich

fishies they want to hustle then giving them the illusion that they're such incredible man things...

[Holmes]

How does

one learn to become a true sociopath?

Would NYU offer night classes?

[surfs_up]

there's also the School For Continuing Education.... maybe something in healthcare

administration would get you on your way...

[thenoser]

i thought any good law school

would do.

\this ends my weak attempt at humor.

[Holmes]

:lol:

I

was only half-joking, actually. If only there were some way to disable that embarrassment mechanism...

My

stepfather was (and probably still is) a textbook sociopath. A flaming asshole to those who've known him more than

a week, but boy does he work magic on strangers! Unreal. Actually pisses me off just thinking about it.

:lol:

Sociopathic souls are generally in a state of constant torment, but if you're a walking pheromone

generator, who needs a soul anyway?

[surfs_up]

this is a most interesting area for researchers to look into... women

who have worked with prisoner populations have reported becoming intensely aroused during interviews with prisoners,

even those with known horrendous deeds right before them in their files... and 'paths have a well established track

record of an irrrational charisma that takes hold of those in their presence, as well as high promiscuity, and

initially people report "wanting to believe them"... so possibly if you're emanating 10x or 100x the normal waft of

pheromones, others will tend to react in unusual, automatic ways around you.... imagine how your personality would

be shaped if everyone you met went DIHL and offered to give you what you wanted.... also interesting is sociopathic

personalities usually appear with the onset of puberty, although there are other early behaviors such as facility

with lying...

Another point to consider is that sociopaths are exceedingly effective in certain types of

interaction, they are known to be fantastic seducers; with sex, business deals, politics... there is some

misconception about how they accomplish this... it appears that they don't just go out and start hitting on people,

far from it... they are masters at reading people, picking up on subtle cues, minor tells, flinches, eye blinks,

head nods, postural shifts that signal availability, skepticism, vulnerability, arousal, disgust.... their attitude

about it is that these signals are obvious but most people are incompetent and can't read them right... which tells

us what ?

Sociopaths most probably have exceptional "empathy" skills, the same ones that the best

psychologists and detectives have, they can zone in and take the precise emotional temperature of who they are

dealing with... so this changes the whole seduction theory totally, they don't go out and blindly do stuff to

people, it's more that they are gifted with intense listening and watching skills, like a hawk can see as well as a

human with a pair of 6 power binoculars or a shark can sense minute changes in the electrical current in the water

... the problem for everyone who has to deal with this
personality type is that it is "broken empathy", they

have way turned up sensing-detection skills but absolutely no shared feeling with who they are sensing... sort of

like other humans are sophisticated plastic dolls and nothing more...

so, here's the laundry list of what

might make them function in part:

high pheromone production

exceptionally fine emotional

perception
(or, the other way, most of us are laughably incompetent)

complete lack of

shame/remorse/embarassability


the pheromones you can supplement

you can gain improved emotional

perception through many forms of study: NLP, Meisner technique acting, Improv, pair dancing, communication

studies..

you can reduce self consciousness through many schools of acting...

and, teee heee, you can

squirt a lotta mones on yourself before acting class and really cut loose, plus you will learn about 3 times more

than you would otherwise.... for example, when I've been working with a scene partner and the -mones kick in some

magic happens, even is the scene is low key and there isn't much expectation that it is going anyplace special...

and the room starts paying real close attention, they can sense the attunement and it intrigues them....

so

that leaves us where ?

[DUKE3100]

Dude....you got me all fired up

on self improvement and growth and adventure. I am allllllll pumped up.:thumbsup: In fact I am close to scrapping my

plans to move to Austin and thinkin about going to the west coast and pickin up a job at a restaurant a couple self

improvement classes and a surf board man! Yea!!:cheers: