Any products with estrene pheromones?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi, all.
I just read the Realm patent. In the patent, Erox mentions estrogen-based pheromenes (estrenes) that produce an electrophysiologic response in human males similar to the human female response to androstendienone. Are there any products for women that contain estrenes? I suppose Realm for men might, but is that too \"masculine\" of a fragrance? Or has Erox\'s estrene work been debunked?

Bruce, anyone?
Laney

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, in a study last year (I think in Feb. Hormones and Behavior), they found both androstadienone and estrene to postively affect the mood of women and negatively affect the mood of men. This would be good advertisement for Realm for Women but bad for Realm for Men!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I found another reference. It really looks like estrenes are what women should be trying to wear. Unfortunately, the abstract doesn\'t say which estrogen-like compound they used and I don\'t have an on-line subscription to Neuron to check the article.

Neuron 2001 Aug 30;31(4):661-8

Smelling of odorous sex hormone-like compounds causes sex-differentiated hypothalamic activations in humans.

Savic I, Berglund H, Gulyas B, Roland P.

Division of Human Brain Research, Department of Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden. ivanka.savic-berglund@neuro.ki.se

The anatomical pathways for processing of odorous stimuli include the olfactory nerve projection to the olfactory bulb, the trigeminal nerve projection to somatosensory and insular cortex, and the projection from the accessory olfactory bulb to the hypothalamus. In the majority of tetrapods, the sex-specific effects of pheromones on reproductive behavior is mediated via the hypothalamic projection. However, the existence of this projection in humans has been regarded as improbable because humans lack a discernable accessory olfactory bulb. Here, we show that women smelling an androgen-like compound activate the hypothalamus, with the center of gravity in the preoptic and ventromedial nuclei. Men, in contrast, activate the hypothalamus (center of gravity in paraventricular and dorsomedial nuclei) when smelling an estrogen-like substance. This sex-dissociated hypothalamic activation suggests a potential physiological substrate for a sex-differentiated behavioral response in humans.

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Laney

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Laney ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wohoo! Found the full text. The compound is estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetra-en-3-ol. No common name is given. It\'s synthetic, odorless, and has been used in other studies. It isn\'t clear from the paper whether it is a naturally occurring compound, but it is closely related to natural estrogens. The androgen used was androstadienone.

Laney

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So where did you find the full text? Too bad these two compounds have been patented for use by Realm.

[CJ01]

If those are naturally occuring substances, they can´t be patented as such. Possibly the way they are synthesized -? I´m not sure.

I assume the product itself is patented ie the whole formula, but not the individual contents.
As far as I know you cannot patent something which exists naturally. Complicated stuff this patent business. Maybe Bruce can enlighten us I don´t even have Realm myself.
CJ images/icons/tongue.gif

Ps Laney where did you read the patent, is it printed on the package, or did you check it over the patent office? is there a patent number printed on the package? images/icons/smile.gif

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: CJ01 ]

[oscar]

CJ,

I believe that you are correct about the naturally occurring substances NOT being eligible for patent protection. The particular method of synthesis IS patentable though.
If what you wanted were Realm\'s patent numbers, there are two listed on the box of Realm for men. Presumably they cover both the men\'s and women\'s formulae. They are,
U.S Patents #5,278,141 and #5,272,134.

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Here\'s the link the full text of the patent:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=\'5278141\'.WKU.&OS=PN/5278141&RS=PN/5278141 (\"http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=\'5278141\'.WKU.&OS=PN/5278141&RS=PN/5278141\")

[oscar]

truth,

I browsed both Realm patents and thought they looked pretty much the same. Didn\'t do a side by side on them though, my printer\'s not up to snuff. What\'s the difference?

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The two patents are:
5,278,141 Fragrance compositions containing human pheromones
5,272,134 Fragrance compositions and other compositions which contain human pheromones

The big difference is that the second patent includes \"fibrous paper tissues, paints, wax candles, incense and the like.\" As far as I can see, the pheromone concentrations are only patented up to 100ug/ml, and in fragrances. So I think it would be legal for Bruce to sell 1 mg/ml androstadienone or estrene pheromones in a \"chemistry set\" format.

Laney

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I do not think that Bruce would hesitate to add these to the kits, at a nominal fee of course. But, if Stone Labs does not offer it, then we are back to where we started. Although, if they were convinced that it was not a patent infringement, then who knows. . .

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, I think selling the \"concentrates\" is a way around the patent! I\'d prefer an additive anyway.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bump.

Dr. Kohl, do you know anything about estrogen-based pheromones, and any products that contain them?

TIA,
Laney

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Seems like most of the human research on James\' site are from the researchers behind the Realm products. Unfortunately, all of their pheromones are patented.

[jvkohl]

Estrene based pheromones; the one used in Realm is a synthetic developed by the Erox/ Pherin chemist Clive Jennings-White. If this group were to find that an estrene based pheromone affected hormone levels in other people, would they tell us? If so, would the FDA come down on them--since their cosmetic fragrance now would be known to have hormonal effects? These folks also have a progesteronic pheromone that decreased LH/FSH levels in men. Tricky stuff: marketing versus scientific research.

There\'s more; Erox/Pherin focusses on the effect of such chemicals on the human VNO. But, no one knows if or how the VNO is connected in humans. Did Savic et al., show a connection between the human VNO and the hypothalamus? Not necessarily. The hypothalamic response could simply be due to past odor associations with the odorless estrene-based synthetic.

Tricky stuff. Look up picogram to find how much of these chemicals is being used. In contrast, other pheromone products contain milligrams (and therefore have odor associations for many people). Just goes to show that there\'s more than one approach being used by researchers. Personally, I think we\'ll find that picogram amounts set the stage for the unconscious affect of milligram amounts, that are paired with consciousness. That\'s why I\'ve focused on milligram amounts of androsterone. People are affected by the androsterone whether or not they smell it; but if they smell it, they almost always make a good association with its scent and with sexual activity.

Pherin is looking at therapeutic (drug-like) effects of other putative human pheromones. I\'m looking at the likelihood that the association of androsterone with its likely unconscious effect on hormones will be therapeutic.

Meanwhile, the research coming from the Pherin associates is held suspect by many neuroscientists. The jury is still out, but more information becomes available each month. I\'m anxious to see what\'s next.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah james have you seen much information on the realm products and the pheromone substances they promote.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

But couldn\'t the picogram quantities be enough since they\'re piped directly into the nose of the subjects. That\'s a whole different from even being within a foot of a person wearing pheromones.

[jvkohl]

Yes, picogram quantities piped directly into the human VNO might be effective--if the human VNO is connected to the hypothalamus. Otherwise, it\'s more likely that the effect of picogram amounts is minimal--and due to their association with, for example, the more the potent andro(s) like OL and RONE. I\'m pretty sure researchers not working for Eros/Pherin but who are testing the Erox/Pherin \"vomeropherins\" have bought the concept of the human VNO being the \"sixth sense\" organ et al., and all important to human chemical communication. After all, the VNO isn\'t all that important in pigs (chemical communication through pheromones occurs without it). And the conditioned response to pheromones can be expected, with or without a functional VNO.

Still, the jury\'s out on this.