bruce, someone, ! question about APC/PI mix

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i mixed in APC with PI, but now i want to get the PI back out of the APC mix....

i see that there are two layers, and i\'m pretty sure that the top layer is PI... i just want to know, if u think separating the PI mix with a syringe will give me the PI with the andro in it..or is it possible that though i see 2 distinct layers, the androtenone from the PI has settled on the bottom??

anyone else have any advice??

[Bruce]

Give it a try. I am not sure which is on top, but separate the two layers as completely as you can. You should be able to tell which is which later, just from the smell.
Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh boy, you are going to have some probs. . . This is a solubility prob. If you mixed to two liquids that don?t like each other, then the pheros will go to what ever phase they like best. At best, you will have altered effects. And your results will be skewed, not representative of the original. But hey, let us know if it works. . .

[Whitehall]

As Mr. Mitty noted, the solutes (pheromones) will partition between the two non-miscible solvents (oil and alcohol/water) based on relative solubilities. The oil could draw out all or some of the pheromones from the alcohol/water or vice versa.

That might also explain reports on such mixtures (parfaits?) needing to \"age\" a day or two before gaining strength?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Perhaps. There is a lot that goes into these things, and we do not have all the answers. But, when in doubt, go back to logic. First, the pheros will not go entirely into the oil phase, it will be certain percentage. Second, how long it takes to get to equilibrium, depends on the surface area. So if you really shook this up, making it look all milky, it will get to eq faster. The last thing to note is the phero conc. probably has changed. Make a note of that, and blithely experiment on. From everything on the board, the amount and what product used to get results is not a done deal for people. We all are different, and have to find the correct mix. Annoying at time, but that is life.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

hmm....weird though, i \'m sure that the PI is on top because i watched the top layer incrase as i added the PI....so the ratio of the different oils is the same... just that the possiblity of the andro settling to the bottom is there...
even though it shows clearly that the PI is floating on top of my APC...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hunter,

Although the PI appears rto be on top, it could only be the oil carrier of PI. It just depends on the amount of Pheros that have been diffused or transfered into the APC. or It may be the other way around tand the PI oil now has some of the APC pheros in it.

So be careful with both oils that you have.

TCO

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I wanted to point out that mg quanities are very small. 1 mL of water is 1,000 mg. So when you have 5 mg in 5 mL, the actual quanity is very small. The carrier dominates the volume. Do not misunderstand what I am saying either. 5 mg of pheros IS a lot. But the actual size of the drop od pheros is probably 1/10th of the size of a ball bearing (those that you shoot with an air gun) When you add this to the solubility and partition coefficients, you are dealing with a small amout of pheros, and a large amount of solvent. It will go to the solvent that makes it happy. I suspect the oil phase, because the concentrated products are oil based.

[CJ01]

W.M.
1ml of water = 1,000 mg of what exactly?
- water or pheros?
CJ

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Walter-

the thing is, both APC and PI are oil based.. yet the mixture separates... so which one the pheromones \"love\" is the quesiton... i see the PI oil on top, and the APC oil on the bottom

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Contrary to popular belief, APC is not oil based. It is in a type of glycerol, or poly-ol. Since the phases separate, it is obvious that they are not both oils. They would mix. Like dissolves like. The PI being on top is more evidence to support this. Glycerols/waters/alcohols are more dense than oils, so they should stay on the bottom while the oil raises to the top. When I said the pheros will go to the phase they like, it simply means just that. Given the opportunity, they will partition into the phase that they are the most soluble in. Blah, blah, blah, the take home message is that the concentrations and relative concentrations (in the mix for instance) will change. The pheros are all still in there, but where they reside and at what conc has changed.

CC, the 1 mL of water is equal to 1,000 mgs of water. I was using that for people to get an idea of how small a mg actually is. . .

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whoops, forgot to add this other factoid. 1 mL also equals one cubic centimeter. The point was to illustrate that a mg of water (pretty dense stuff, 55.5 M, egad) was rather small.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry again, that dust devil of factoids was for CJ not CC. I just can not seem to keep my head in the game today.

[oscar]

hunter,

APC/PI isn\'t a bad mix. It just seems to mix badly. My advice would be to shake it up and use it.

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

walter, thanks for the information..seems like u know ur stuff..

now, the only question, is where would the phereomones be more readily dissolved, in the APC glycerol etc mix, or the PI oil based mixed? hmm... what are pheromones exactly anyway? they are released in sweat no? but are pheromones themselves oil based? i hope so..

i created a mess for myself..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Pheros are similar in design to cholesterol. I put up a post a while back, but what is going on is there is a basic structure of the molecule. Ma-Nature is pretty darn smart about taking a theme and making the most of it. Cholesterol, steroids, bile salts, and pheros are all derived from the same basic structure. Not copulins though. . . (Just a side note for completeness) I would guess that the pheros like the oil best from the behavior of the other molecules. As I sort of noted, the REALLY strong phero products out there are oil carried. (Hint, hint, hint) So my guess is that the oil phase of you mix is heavier on the pheros. Remember, this is not a concrete statement, I am guessing (OK, maybe an educated guess) As far as the mix goes, I would rather think of it as another bold chapter in phero mixing. Messes are things we don?t want to clean up. As far as what I would do, as if my opinion is worth anything, I would try to take ½ of the top phase and ½ of the bottom phase. Then I?d have the mix and the extracts to play with. Good luck with the experiment.

[CJ01]

Walter
1 ml of water = 1 mg of water
1 L of water = 1 Kg of water

-not sure where you got the 1,000 mg from, or have I misunderstood something ...?
CJ images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Look close at what you wrote, 1 L = 1kg (I agree with this one), then 1 mL = 1 mg? 6 orders of magnitude? One mL = one gram of water. 1 uL = one mg, and so on. This stuff always bugged me, too easy to mess up the math in the noggin. So I had to memorize it. But, an easy way to keep an eye on it is to note which term has a kilo, or milli in front of it. I had to TA a class on enzymes, and you have to get your crap together for all the conversions. I do not suggest doing that job, unless you have to.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

1 L of water = 1 kg
divide both sides by 1000...
1 ml of water = 1 g

I wonder if an emulsifying agent would get the two products to mix? http://www.fragrancesupplies.com (\"http://www.fragrancesupplies.com\") sells surfactant that might help. I haven\'t tried it myself.

Laney

[oscar]

hunter,

While you may never get the PI and APC separated to your satisfaction, what you did provides a good lesson to rookies.

I cringe sometimes when I see someone ask, \"So, do I just pour the two bottles together, or what?\". How many times have the old hands here cautioned newbies to start with small experimental batches?
I too have a batch of APC/PI mix on the shelf. It\'s comprised of 14 drops of APC and 6 drops of PI. I don\'t recall why I didn\'t just use 7 drops APC and 3 drops PI. I guess I was just feeling a little wild that day.

In my opinion the best advice you\'ve been given was that from Walter Mitty in his 12/12/01 00:46 post, to halve the halves and cut your losses.

It\'s a shame you\'ve become the \"poster child\" for impetuous mixing of mass quantities, but I\'m sure many others have done the same without having the guts to own up to it. So chalk it up to experience, and try to make the best of it. images/icons/smile.gif

Good Luck,
Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Laney, nothing like a little triton X100, eh? Or maybe Tween 20-40. I mentioned earlier that there are a couple of food grade emulsifiers, but I would avoid them. Stability over time problems are bound to crop up.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

LOL images/icons/laugh.gif And if Triton or Tween won\'t work, SDS sure as heck will.

I just suggested a surfactant because I saw it in the perfume supplies shop for only $5. I\'m actually thinking of trying some on my free musk e-oil because it\'s separated.

Laney

[Whitehall]

Tween would work? I\'ve got a ton of the stuff from my platinum printing supplies.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I did a little web hunting. Another name for Tween is polysorbate and it is commonly used in all sorts of cosmetics to stabilize oil/water mixtures. Polysorbate 60 and 80 seem to be the most widely used for emuslifying. Additionally, Tween-20 is used in shampoos.

This page has a nice listing of cosmetic ingredients http://www.oshun.ca/info.html (\"http://www.oshun.ca/info.html\") . So using your printing Tween-20 (if it\'s pure) isn\'t as farfetched as it sounds. I\'d try it out on cooking oil and alcohol first, though.

Laney

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Laney ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

SDS, yeah baby yeah. . . Nothing like a negative charge on the thing. Do you think you could separate the oil from the water with a current? images/icons/smile.gif He, he, he. . . Oh yeah, before I giggle to much about surfactants, one other nrrdy fact. Everyone of the emulsifiers (surfactants) listed here are of the oil in water type. You can also make water in oil emulsions (mayo and butter are of these types) and these require different emulsifiers (HLB < 7) If you have to ask, please do not, it is just nerdy stuff. If you can get tween 20 from a shop, do so. Try to avoid the higher # tweens, this has to do with when they melt (in a way) Tween 80, for instance requires greater than 60 C to melt, ouch. (hot water from the faucet is approx 50) And remember to think about this, if you want the stuff to spray, do you want to use the stuff that is liquid or solid.

Oh yeah, SDS is in shampoo. Instead of Sodium Dodecyl Sulfate, it is Sodium Laurel Sulfate. . . Same thing , different names. Chemists. . .