View Full Version : This is scary!!
belgareth
04-23-2005, 04:19 AM
http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/2evangelicalswanttostripcourtsfunds;_ylt=ApR
1bBz82Vlm8OFz5DOOn7Ks0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2bm5xNHVjBHN lYwNtcA (http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/2evangelicalswanttostripcourtsfunds;_ylt=ApR1bBz82 Vlm8OFz5DOOn7Ks0NUE;
_ylu=X3oDMTA2bm5xNHVjBHNlYwNtcA)--
tounge
04-23-2005, 09:27 AM
HAH! What is really scary is
having Ruth B. Ginsburg on the Supreme Court. Having left-wing judges let child sex preditors off with a slap on the
wrist, ala Florida. And see the results. Having liberal black-robed justices care more for the rights of foreign
born mass-murdering terrorists, than their own citizens.
The Los Angeles Times isn't even worth lining a
bird cage with. They are filled with many editorials and columnists that write so much Anti-Christian bigotry. And
constantly promote and agenda that promotes their leftist bias.
I agree with Pope John Paul, before he passed
away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope mankind. Read what he was talking about and then you
know what is SCARY.
InternationalPlayboy
04-23-2005, 09:39 AM
I
agree with Pope John Paul, before he passed away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope
mankind.
About to? I think the clouds arrived several years, if not a decade or more ago. IMO though,
extreme right or left, they are equally as dangerous.
belgareth
04-23-2005, 10:01 AM
HAH! What is
really scary is having Ruth B. Ginsburg on the Supreme Court. Having left-wing judges let child sex preditors off
with a slap on the wrist, ala Florida. And see the results. Having liberal black-robed justices care more for the
rights of foreign born mass-murdering terrorists, than their own citizens.
The Los Angeles Times isn't even
worth lining a bird cage with. They are filled with many editorials and columnists that write so much Anti-Christian
bigotry. And constantly promote and agenda that promotes their leftist bias.
I agree with Pope John Paul, before
he passed away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope mankind. Read what he was talking about and
then you know what is SCARY.
No argument on the first two and no comment on the third. Ginsberg should
have been removed from the bench when she commutted everybody's sentence on death row to life in prison on her own
inititive. We tried but too many bleeding hearts stood in the way.
It's still scary allowing ANY group decide
or even think they have the right to influence judges' decisions.
You mention Florida, did you see where they
are trying to change the laws there to keep sexual preditors in prison forever or to monitor them for the rest of
their lives? An excellent direction but a crime that children have to be hurt before our so called leaders get off
their butts and do something that should have been done long ago.
DrSmellThis
04-23-2005, 10:21 AM
Isn't an independent
judiciary essential to the checks and balances of a democracy?
BTW, I've never heard of "liberals" being in
favor of letting sexual predators off with a slap on the wrist; favoring terrorist's rights over their own
citizen's rights, or being anti-Christian. For example, I was raised Catholic and have met thousands of good
Catholic liberals. The left wing certainly has no monopoly on perverting the message of Christ. Most of the people I
know who work with sex abuse victims and fight against abuse are also "liberals", and heavily favor getting and
keeping predators off the street.
I think the issue here is more about wanting to have a true democracy; with
judges that are free to uphold the constitution without fear of punishment. Do we want judges to be ruled by special
interest pressures like Congress is?
belgareth
04-23-2005, 10:27 AM
Independent is one thing and of
critical importance, activist is another entirely. A judge should be free to interpret the laws in cases presented
to them without pressure. That does not mean they have the right to subvert the will of the people by taking things
into their hands.
DrSmellThis
04-23-2005, 10:36 AM
Independent
is one thing and of critical importance, activist is another entirely. A judge should be free to interpret the laws
in cases presented to them without pressure. That does not mean they have the right to subvert the will of the
people by taking things into their hands.Indeed. Judges are constrained by the constitution in a democracy.
Judges who won't uphold the law can be removed or impeached. Protecting democracy protects Republicans and
conservatives, as much as Democrats and liberals. Many conservatives favor respecting the democratic judicial
process.
It's interesting that all this came out of the Terri Schiavo case. And why would Tom Delay and Bill
Frist be starting all this now?
phersurf
04-25-2005, 05:05 PM
BTW,
I've never heard of "liberals" being in favor of letting sexual predators off with a slap on the wrist; favoring
terrorist's rights over their own citizen's rights, or being anti-Christian. For example, I was raised Catholic
and have met thousands of good Catholic liberals. The left wing certainly has no monopoly on perverting the message
of Christ. Most of the people I know who work with sex abuse victims and fight against abuse are also "liberals",
and heavily favor getting and keeping predators off the street.
It seems like tounge is
just parroting right wing propoganda scare tactics.
No liberal I know is in favor of any of the things he
mentions:rolleyes:
And I love the right wing "monopoly" on what it means to be a good Christian.
tounge
04-25-2005, 06:58 PM
Tounge is parroting nothing. I
know many liberal thinking people who beleive in such things. The propaganda and the distortions of the left
continue to lead to the decline of the values that are neccessary for a civil people to exist. The signs are all
around you.
phersurf
04-26-2005, 10:58 AM
I know many
liberal thinking people who beleive in such things. The propaganda and the distortions of the left continue to lead
to the decline of the values that are neccessary for a civil people to exist. The signs are all around
you.
Sometimes, as an unfortunate side effect of living in a free society based on the rule of law,
courts have to release guilty people. When this happens, it gets sensationalized and blown out of proportion. Those
same laws that sometimes release the guilty protect the inncocent (ask the hundreds of innocent people released form
death row based on DNA evidence in the last few years if those laws aren't important!).
It's absolutely
horrible when a sexual predator (or any other guilty person gets released), but that's part of the danger in living
in a free society. Free speech leads to children seeing pornography, freedom to own guns leads to accidental
shootings, freedom of religion leads to mind control cults, but those are the dangers of living in a free
society.
The "decline in values" that will be the undoing of the USA have little to do with same sex
marriage, abortion, no prayer in schools or any other ralying point of the Religious Right. The undoing of the USA
will be the destruction of the Bill of Rights (thanks to The Patriot Act), the Seperation of Church and State and
Imperialism (in the form of invading countries based on lies).
Mtnjim
04-26-2005, 01:39 PM
“Times are bad. Children no longer
obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)
I guess things have
been going down the toilet for a while now.:POKE:
Undertow
04-26-2005, 02:09 PM
Yeah, American society has been
in trouble many times throughout our history. It's getting there(if not already there) now. Unfortunately, the
only thing that changed the direction of the country in the past was violence. So......*goes and builds a bomb
shelter*
tounge
04-26-2005, 09:23 PM
Sorry pherosurf, you are wrong.
Immorality has brought down many a civilization, and will also be our own undoing. It has nothing to do with
religion, or the politics that you happen to disagree with. The culture of decadance and death eventually destroys a
weak and immoral society. The signs are all around us.
Undertow
04-26-2005, 10:51 PM
That sounds exactly like the
argument for prohibition. Either way, I've fallen out of favor with the christian sect of the republicans.
Constantly complaining about how the country is falling apart, yet unwilling to do anything to help the lower class
of the country, which is where the vast majority of crime comes from.
I'm going to agree that the country
is becoming immoral, but that is because the only god most people in this country follow is the Almighty Dollar. If
anything, that trait is WORSE among the conservatives/republicans. Just look at the corporate leaders fleecing
millions from their companies. Strange how none of them are "liberal." At least the poor people are robbing to
eat, what's the excuse for the multi-millionaires?
tounge
04-27-2005, 10:31 AM
Dude, you generalize too much. Try
to become a bit more informed. Stop with the class envy,already. It's useless and leads to worse forms of
government.
The best thing you can do is make as much money as you can. Honestly and ethically. Then use it
to help your fellow human beings. Teach men to fish so they can than eat for a lifetime,instead of just giving them
a fish so they only eat for a day.
And stop bashing religion. I see more hospitals, schools and Universitys,
along with many nursing homes and orphanages,among many other things, that were founded by selfless Religious people
who deeply cared about their fellow human being.
I also get tired of hearing how rightious the poor are
just because they are poor. There is no merit to that. The way out of poverty is hard work and good education. And
living a proper life so as not to squander your talents and resources.
Well, enough of this thread for me. I
think it was foolish to get invovled with from the begining.
belgareth
04-27-2005, 11:43 AM
With few exceptions, what
Tounge says is completely true. Personally I am not religious in any conventional manner but know many fine and
generous people who are. The ones using religion as a tool to control others are using it for power not for the good
thing it is intended to be.
Giving hand outs is never the answer though. Teaching those in need to stand on
their own two feet and be productive is the way to go for the long term.
phersurf
04-27-2005, 01:51 PM
I have to disagree.
That
good things have been done in the name of religion is of no argument, that horrible things have been done is just as
obvious. How many incredible cultures have been destroyed in the name of "saving souls"? How many wars have been
fought to convert believers in competing religions (do the Inquisition and Crusades ring a bell)?
This is why
our Founding Fathers were so carefull to create a Government that had such an obvious seperation between Church and
State. The planet just was comming out of a very dark period ruled by theocracies and they wanted to make sure that
it didn't happen in the US.
Now we have guys like Tom Delay who are doing their best to create another
theocracy. His spiritual advisor, a guy named James Dobson, wants adultery to be a capital offence, he wants
homosexuals to be castrated! Sure most of these guys are the fringe of beliefs in this country, but they are
currently in power!
THAT'S SCARRY SHIT!
Believe me, I have no problem in anyone believing in any
fairy tale they choose to. I'm not anti-Christian. Just keep it out of my government, public schools, and don't
try to force it on me.
belgareth
04-27-2005, 01:57 PM
I'm the one that called it
scary in the first place, remember? It isn't about religion with them, no more than it was during the spanish
inquisistions. It's about power and control; desires that are not limited to religions.
There are very real
issues in this country that are due to the breakdown of our moral code of conduct. Athiests are just as guilty of
amoral behavoir as zealots are. Both are contributing to the problems that we can see every day. I don't want or
need some preacher shouting at me to tell me how I should act to save my soul any more than I want or need some
group screaming about a frippin' plaque in a courthouse to keep me from thinking about that perspective. They are
both non-issues as far as I am concerned. How about if we focus on the real issues of personal conduct and
accountability?
phersurf
04-27-2005, 02:18 PM
Your right!
The moral
code is breaking down in the US. But it's not religious based moral code. Adultery, homosexuality, sex outside of
marriage are not going to lead to the moral downfall of America.
It's Enron cheating thousands of people out
of their retirement (and getting to help choose most of Bush's cabinet) and, for the most part, getting away with
it. It's our politicians lying about the resasons to go to war, then watching 1500 AMericans die for those lies. Oh
yeah, and 10,000 innocent Iraqiis (I guess a lot of them have to die so they can be free ) die (but that's OK, they
believe in a different fairy tale than we do).
belgareth
04-27-2005, 02:27 PM
Your right!
The moral code is breaking down in the US. But it's not religious based moral code. Adultery, homosexuality, sex
outside of marriage are not going to lead to the moral downfall of America.It was actually founded on
religious principles. But the key is principles, not religion.
It's Enron cheating thousands
of people out of their retirement (and getting to help choose most of Bush's cabinet) and, for the most part,
getting away with it. It's our politicians lying about the resasons to go to war, then watching 1500 AMericans die
for those lies. Oh yeah, and 10,000 innocent Iraqiis (I guess a lot of them have to die so they can be free ) die
(but that's OK, they believe in a different fairy tale than we do).It isn't solely the Bush boys, the Dems
were/are just as bad. Remember Vietnam? The late, great JFK put our people into combat. He also played some very
stupid games with the Soviets and Cuba that nearly got millions killed. Leave the party crap out of it, that's pure
hyperbole. The issue is the people we allow to run this country and the place they are leading us too.
The worst
part is that it's our own damned fault!
phersurf
04-27-2005, 02:43 PM
Both parties are scum. I guess
I'm just pointing out the latest group of scum.
There is a difference though, and that's this current group
of scum have this "apocalyptic" religious bent.
I can deal with the standard "lets do all of our corporate
buddies that donated money to our campaign favors" sort of immorality. But when they cloak it in one particular
interpretation of one particular religious book is when I have problems.
belgareth
04-27-2005, 02:54 PM
Both parties
are scum. I guess I'm just pointing out the latest group of scum.
There is a difference though, and that's
this current group of scum have this "apocalyptic" religious bent.
We're getting closer to the same track
:cheers:
The only real difference is the apocalypse that they use to stir the emotions of the people. Since the
great red menace is no more, they've had to think up a new enemy. Consider the bombing of Belgrade ordered by Bill
CLinton. What diod that accomplish other than destroying things and killing people? The seperate parties created
different shadows to chase to keep the people stirred up and not looking at how this country is really being run.
I can deal with the standard "lets do all of our corporate buddies that donated money to our
campaign favors" sort of immorality. But when they cloak it in one particular interpretation of one particular
religious book is when I have problems.
The book doesn't matter because they are not quoting from it or
using it's principles anyway. It could as easily be a purple rock with yellow spots that talks to them in their
dreams. So long as they think they can get the majority to follow them, the avowed reason is unimportant.
tounge
04-27-2005, 08:36 PM
Well Prersurf,since you seem to be
a Constitutional Scholar, would you mind giving me that section of the Constitution that mentions separation of
Church and State?
DrSmellThis
04-27-2005, 09:42 PM
Well Prersurf,since you seem to be a Constitutional Scholar, would you mind giving me that section of
the Constitution that mentions separation of Church and State?I hate to butt in, since phersurf is doing so
well on his own, but the First Amendment to the constitution is part of the constitution, the last I
checked! :)
But do we really even need to go there? If you have to throw out the Bill of Rights to make your
point, you may as well just reject democracy outright; and argue for a theocracy; something like a Christian Saudi
Arabia.
Thomas Jefferson, who used the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" was abundantly clear
about where he stood on the issue, in many of his serious writings on democracy, including the landmark 1803 letter
I just quoted from which gave his definitive interpretation of the First Amendment, which was already clear enough
in its implications.
This concept has also been further hammered out and stood the test of time in more than
two centuries of court rulings; and could not be more essential to modern democracy. Indeed, the idea was
demonstrably present in the formation of the United States and rejection of British tyranny.
It is truly
scary that some people these days want to gut democracy to this extent. We live in interesting times. How can so
many Americans get suckered into rejecting their own best interests? No religious point of view can count on
enjoying a hegemony forever. "You have to think down the road", as Bob Dole says regarding such democratic
principles.
Undertow
04-28-2005, 08:50 AM
Tounge, nothing I said was
anti-Christian. I'm not even sure where you got that. In fact, I even agreed the country was becoming immoral. I
just said I didn't support the christian conservative sect.
And for a while, I was fond of the Libertarian
party, so enough with all the class envy stuff, as well. The one thing I've learned studying business is that
sometimes government involvement is necessary. However, that is mostly BECAUSE some people are so immoral.
Sometimes companies are willing to hurt people/the environment just for higher profits. Read about America's
industrial past, it is not pretty stuff. That is why I can't be as supportive of laissez faire as I used to
be.
And I agree with teaching a person to stand on their own, but the fact is that the vast majority of
people under the poverty line never even have a shot at that. Class structures in America rarely change. People
born into poverty are likely to stay there, no matter their intelligence.
tounge
04-28-2005, 10:58 AM
Nice try Doc. Stick to dancing. You
never once stated what the exact words of the First Amendment say. As for Phersurf doing so well on his own, he just
comes across as an Anti-Christian bigot. I really don't know why you secular-humanistic folks are so afraid of
religion. The Countries of the world get father and farther away from the values religion everyday.
If
anything, religious people should fear athestic and totally secular governments. Just ask the Jewish survivors of
Nazi Germany,or the millions of Christians persecuted and murdered under the various Marxist countries that have
plagued the world.
This is my last post in this discussion. It is just going to become a pissing contest, And
the thread in my opinion never should have been started in the first place.
Politics and religion are bad
topics to bring up on any forum, not to mention a pheromone website, where business is conducted. Some people may be
offended at what is said, one way or another,and it could possibly cost Bruce business.
phersurf
04-28-2005, 11:12 AM
Anytime someone brings up
keeping religion (all religion) out of government, they get tagged as being "anti-Christian"! I'm not sure why this
happens.
Beleive me, I have no bigotry at all towrad any relgion. I was brought up Jewish and all my
grandparents were in concentration camps. I know what religious persecution is, and what a slippery slope the US is
headed down.
DrSmellThis
04-28-2005, 01:41 PM
Nice try Doc.
Stick to dancing. You never once stated what the exact words of the First Amendment say. As for Phersurf doing so
well on his own, he just comes across as an Anti-Christian bigot. I really don't know why you secular-humanistic
folks are so afraid of religion. The Countries of the world get father and farther away from the values religion
everyday.
If anything, religious people should fear athestic and totally secular governments. Just ask the
Jewish survivors of Nazi Germany,or the millions of Christians persecuted and murdered under the various Marxist
countries that have plagued the world.
This is my last post in this discussion. It is just going to become a
pissing contest, And the thread in my opinion never should have been started in the first place.
Politics and
religion are bad topics to bring up on any forum, not to mention a pheromone website, where business is conducted.
Some people may be offended at what is said, one way or another,and it could possibly cost Bruce
business.I'll leave it to others to reply to this post in full, if they want to. But here is the Cornell
Law School Legal Information Institute's analysis of the First Amendment, including the text of the amendment
itself. People can read for themselves:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.ht
ml (http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html)
Mtnjim
04-28-2005, 02:36 PM
Anytime someone
brings up keeping religion (all religion) out of government, they get tagged as being "anti-Christian"! I'm not
sure why this happens.
For the same reason some people label people who disagree with them "liberals"
with the "bad" connotation.
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