This is scary!!

[belgareth]

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/2evangelicalswanttostripcourtsfunds;_ylt=ApR

1bBz82Vlm8OFz5DOOn7Ks0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2bm5xNHVjBHN lYwNtcA (http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/2evangelicalswanttostripcourtsfunds;_ylt=ApR1bBz82 Vlm8OFz5DOOn7Ks0NUE;

_ylu=X3oDMTA2bm5xNHVjBHNlYwNtcA)--

[tounge]

HAH! What is really scary is

having Ruth B. Ginsburg on the Supreme Court. Having left-wing judges let child sex preditors off with a slap on the

wrist, ala Florida. And see the results. Having liberal black-robed justices care more for the rights of foreign

born mass-murdering terrorists, than their own citizens.

The Los Angeles Times isn't even worth lining a

bird cage with. They are filled with many editorials and columnists that write so much Anti-Christian bigotry. And

constantly promote and agenda that promotes their leftist bias.

I agree with Pope John Paul, before he passed

away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope mankind. Read what he was talking about and then you

know what is SCARY.

[InternationalPlayboy]

I

agree with Pope John Paul, before he passed away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope

mankind.

About to? I think the clouds arrived several years, if not a decade or more ago. IMO though,

extreme right or left, they are equally as dangerous.

[belgareth]

HAH! What is

really scary is having Ruth B. Ginsburg on the Supreme Court. Having left-wing judges let child sex preditors off

with a slap on the wrist, ala Florida. And see the results. Having liberal black-robed justices care more for the

rights of foreign born mass-murdering terrorists, than their own citizens.

The Los Angeles Times isn't even

worth lining a bird cage with. They are filled with many editorials and columnists that write so much Anti-Christian

bigotry. And constantly promote and agenda that promotes their leftist bias.

I agree with Pope John Paul, before

he passed away, he mentioned the dark clouds that are about to envelope mankind. Read what he was talking about and

then you know what is SCARY.
No argument on the first two and no comment on the third. Ginsberg should

have been removed from the bench when she commutted everybody's sentence on death row to life in prison on her own

inititive. We tried but too many bleeding hearts stood in the way.

It's still scary allowing ANY group decide

or even think they have the right to influence judges' decisions.

You mention Florida, did you see where they

are trying to change the laws there to keep sexual preditors in prison forever or to monitor them for the rest of

their lives? An excellent direction but a crime that children have to be hurt before our so called leaders get off

their butts and do something that should have been done long ago.

[DrSmellThis]

Isn't an independent

judiciary essential to the checks and balances of a democracy?

BTW, I've never heard of "liberals" being in

favor of letting sexual predators off with a slap on the wrist; favoring terrorist's rights over their own

citizen's rights, or being anti-Christian. For example, I was raised Catholic and have met thousands of good

Catholic liberals. The left wing certainly has no monopoly on perverting the message of Christ. Most of the people I

know who work with sex abuse victims and fight against abuse are also "liberals", and heavily favor getting and

keeping predators off the street.

I think the issue here is more about wanting to have a true democracy; with

judges that are free to uphold the constitution without fear of punishment. Do we want judges to be ruled by special

interest pressures like Congress is?

[belgareth]

Independent is one thing and of

critical importance, activist is another entirely. A judge should be free to interpret the laws in cases presented

to them without pressure. That does not mean they have the right to subvert the will of the people by taking things

into their hands.

[DrSmellThis]

Independent

is one thing and of critical importance, activist is another entirely. A judge should be free to interpret the laws

in cases presented to them without pressure. That does not mean they have the right to subvert the will of the

people by taking things into their hands.Indeed. Judges are constrained by the constitution in a democracy.

Judges who won't uphold the law can be removed or impeached. Protecting democracy protects Republicans and

conservatives, as much as Democrats and liberals. Many conservatives favor respecting the democratic judicial

process.

It's interesting that all this came out of the Terri Schiavo case. And why would Tom Delay and Bill

Frist be starting all this now?

[phersurf]

BTW,

I've never heard of "liberals" being in favor of letting sexual predators off with a slap on the wrist; favoring

terrorist's rights over their own citizen's rights, or being anti-Christian. For example, I was raised Catholic

and have met thousands of good Catholic liberals. The left wing certainly has no monopoly on perverting the message

of Christ. Most of the people I know who work with sex abuse victims and fight against abuse are also "liberals",

and heavily favor getting and keeping predators off the street.



It seems like tounge is

just parroting right wing propoganda scare tactics.

No liberal I know is in favor of any of the things he

mentions:rolleyes:

And I love the right wing "monopoly" on what it means to be a good Christian.

[tounge]

Tounge is parroting nothing. I

know many liberal thinking people who beleive in such things. The propaganda and the distortions of the left

continue to lead to the decline of the values that are neccessary for a civil people to exist. The signs are all

around you.

[phersurf]

I know many

liberal thinking people who beleive in such things. The propaganda and the distortions of the left continue to lead

to the decline of the values that are neccessary for a civil people to exist. The signs are all around

you.

Sometimes, as an unfortunate side effect of living in a free society based on the rule of law,

courts have to release guilty people. When this happens, it gets sensationalized and blown out of proportion. Those

same laws that sometimes release the guilty protect the inncocent (ask the hundreds of innocent people released form

death row based on DNA evidence in the last few years if those laws aren't important!).

It's absolutely

horrible when a sexual predator (or any other guilty person gets released), but that's part of the danger in living

in a free society. Free speech leads to children seeing pornography, freedom to own guns leads to accidental

shootings, freedom of religion leads to mind control cults, but those are the dangers of living in a free

society.

The "decline in values" that will be the undoing of the USA have little to do with same sex

marriage, abortion, no prayer in schools or any other ralying point of the Religious Right. The undoing of the USA

will be the destruction of the Bill of Rights (thanks to The Patriot Act), the Seperation of Church and State and

Imperialism (in the form of invading countries based on lies).

[Mtnjim]

“Times are bad. Children no longer

obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

I guess things have

been going down the toilet for a while now.:POKE:

[Undertow]

Yeah, American society has been

in trouble many times throughout our history. It's getting there(if not already there) now. Unfortunately, the

only thing that changed the direction of the country in the past was violence. So......*goes and builds a bomb

shelter*

[tounge]

Sorry pherosurf, you are wrong.

Immorality has brought down many a civilization, and will also be our own undoing. It has nothing to do with

religion, or the politics that you happen to disagree with. The culture of decadance and death eventually destroys a

weak and immoral society. The signs are all around us.

[Undertow]

That sounds exactly like the

argument for prohibition. Either way, I've fallen out of favor with the christian sect of the republicans.

Constantly complaining about how the country is falling apart, yet unwilling to do anything to help the lower class

of the country, which is where the vast majority of crime comes from.

I'm going to agree that the country

is becoming immoral, but that is because the only god most people in this country follow is the Almighty Dollar. If

anything, that trait is WORSE among the conservatives/republicans. Just look at the corporate leaders fleecing

millions from their companies. Strange how none of them are "liberal." At least the poor people are robbing to

eat, what's the excuse for the multi-millionaires?

[tounge]

Dude, you generalize too much. Try

to become a bit more informed. Stop with the class envy,already. It's useless and leads to worse forms of

government.

The best thing you can do is make as much money as you can. Honestly and ethically. Then use it

to help your fellow human beings. Teach men to fish so they can than eat for a lifetime,instead of just giving them

a fish so they only eat for a day.

And stop bashing religion. I see more hospitals, schools and Universitys,

along with many nursing homes and orphanages,among many other things, that were founded by selfless Religious people

who deeply cared about their fellow human being.


I also get tired of hearing how rightious the poor are

just because they are poor. There is no merit to that. The way out of poverty is hard work and good education. And

living a proper life so as not to squander your talents and resources.

Well, enough of this thread for me. I

think it was foolish to get invovled with from the begining.

[belgareth]

With few exceptions, what

Tounge says is completely true. Personally I am not religious in any conventional manner but know many fine and

generous people who are. The ones using religion as a tool to control others are using it for power not for the good

thing it is intended to be.

Giving hand outs is never the answer though. Teaching those in need to stand on

their own two feet and be productive is the way to go for the long term.

[phersurf]

I have to disagree.

That

good things have been done in the name of religion is of no argument, that horrible things have been done is just as

obvious. How many incredible cultures have been destroyed in the name of "saving souls"? How many wars have been

fought to convert believers in competing religions (do the Inquisition and Crusades ring a bell)?

This is why

our Founding Fathers were so carefull to create a Government that had such an obvious seperation between Church and

State. The planet just was comming out of a very dark period ruled by theocracies and they wanted to make sure that

it didn't happen in the US.

Now we have guys like Tom Delay who are doing their best to create another

theocracy. His spiritual advisor, a guy named James Dobson, wants adultery to be a capital offence, he wants

homosexuals to be castrated! Sure most of these guys are the fringe of beliefs in this country, but they are

currently in power!

THAT'S SCARRY SHIT!


Believe me, I have no problem in anyone believing in any

fairy tale they choose to. I'm not anti-Christian. Just keep it out of my government, public schools, and don't

try to force it on me.

[belgareth]

I'm the one that called it

scary in the first place, remember? It isn't about religion with them, no more than it was during the spanish

inquisistions. It's about power and control; desires that are not limited to religions.

There are very real

issues in this country that are due to the breakdown of our moral code of conduct. Athiests are just as guilty of

amoral behavoir as zealots are. Both are contributing to the problems that we can see every day. I don't want or

need some preacher shouting at me to tell me how I should act to save my soul any more than I want or need some

group screaming about a frippin' plaque in a courthouse to keep me from thinking about that perspective. They are

both non-issues as far as I am concerned. How about if we focus on the real issues of personal conduct and

accountability?

[phersurf]

Your right!

The moral

code is breaking down in the US. But it's not religious based moral code. Adultery, homosexuality, sex outside of

marriage are not going to lead to the moral downfall of America.

It's Enron cheating thousands of people out

of their retirement (and getting to help choose most of Bush's cabinet) and, for the most part, getting away with

it. It's our politicians lying about the resasons to go to war, then watching 1500 AMericans die for those lies. Oh

yeah, and 10,000 innocent Iraqiis (I guess a lot of them have to die so they can be free ) die (but that's OK, they

believe in a different fairy tale than we do).

[belgareth]

Your right!



The moral code is breaking down in the US. But it's not religious based moral code. Adultery, homosexuality, sex

outside of marriage are not going to lead to the moral downfall of America.It was actually founded on

religious principles. But the key is principles, not religion.



It's Enron cheating thousands

of people out of their retirement (and getting to help choose most of Bush's cabinet) and, for the most part,

getting away with it. It's our politicians lying about the resasons to go to war, then watching 1500 AMericans die

for those lies. Oh yeah, and 10,000 innocent Iraqiis (I guess a lot of them have to die so they can be free ) die

(but that's OK, they believe in a different fairy tale than we do).It isn't solely the Bush boys, the Dems

were/are just as bad. Remember Vietnam? The late, great JFK put our people into combat. He also played some very

stupid games with the Soviets and Cuba that nearly got millions killed. Leave the party crap out of it, that's pure

hyperbole. The issue is the people we allow to run this country and the place they are leading us too.

The worst

part is that it's our own damned fault!

[phersurf]

Both parties are scum. I guess

I'm just pointing out the latest group of scum.

There is a difference though, and that's this current group

of scum have this "apocalyptic" religious bent.

I can deal with the standard "lets do all of our corporate

buddies that donated money to our campaign favors" sort of immorality. But when they cloak it in one particular

interpretation of one particular religious book is when I have problems.

[belgareth]

Both parties

are scum. I guess I'm just pointing out the latest group of scum.

There is a difference though, and that's

this current group of scum have this "apocalyptic" religious bent.
We're getting closer to the same track

:cheers:

The only real difference is the apocalypse that they use to stir the emotions of the people. Since the

great red menace is no more, they've had to think up a new enemy. Consider the bombing of Belgrade ordered by Bill

CLinton. What diod that accomplish other than destroying things and killing people? The seperate parties created

different shadows to chase to keep the people stirred up and not looking at how this country is really being run.




I can deal with the standard "lets do all of our corporate buddies that donated money to our

campaign favors" sort of immorality. But when they cloak it in one particular interpretation of one particular

religious book is when I have problems.
The book doesn't matter because they are not quoting from it or

using it's principles anyway. It could as easily be a purple rock with yellow spots that talks to them in their

dreams. So long as they think they can get the majority to follow them, the avowed reason is unimportant.

[tounge]

Well Prersurf,since you seem to be

a Constitutional Scholar, would you mind giving me that section of the Constitution that mentions separation of

Church and State?

[DrSmellThis]

Well Prersurf,since you seem to be a Constitutional Scholar, would you mind giving me that section of

the Constitution that mentions separation of Church and State?I hate to butt in, since phersurf is doing so

well on his own, but the First Amendment to the constitution is part of the constitution, the last I

checked! :)

But do we really even need to go there? If you have to throw out the Bill of Rights to make your

point, you may as well just reject democracy outright; and argue for a theocracy; something like a Christian Saudi

Arabia.

Thomas Jefferson, who used the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" was abundantly clear

about where he stood on the issue, in many of his serious writings on democracy, including the landmark 1803 letter

I just quoted from which gave his definitive interpretation of the First Amendment, which was already clear enough

in its implications.

This concept has also been further hammered out and stood the test of time in more than

two centuries of court rulings; and could not be more essential to modern democracy. Indeed, the idea was

demonstrably present in the formation of the United States and rejection of British tyranny.

It is truly

scary that some people these days want to gut democracy to this extent. We live in interesting times. How can so

many Americans get suckered into rejecting their own best interests? No religious point of view can count on

enjoying a hegemony forever. "You have to think down the road", as Bob Dole says regarding such democratic

principles.

[Undertow]

Tounge, nothing I said was

anti-Christian. I'm not even sure where you got that. In fact, I even agreed the country was becoming immoral. I

just said I didn't support the christian conservative sect.

And for a while, I was fond of the Libertarian

party, so enough with all the class envy stuff, as well. The one thing I've learned studying business is that

sometimes government involvement is necessary. However, that is mostly BECAUSE some people are so immoral.

Sometimes companies are willing to hurt people/the environment just for higher profits. Read about America's

industrial past, it is not pretty stuff. That is why I can't be as supportive of laissez faire as I used to

be.

And I agree with teaching a person to stand on their own, but the fact is that the vast majority of

people under the poverty line never even have a shot at that. Class structures in America rarely change. People

born into poverty are likely to stay there, no matter their intelligence.

[tounge]

Nice try Doc. Stick to dancing. You

never once stated what the exact words of the First Amendment say. As for Phersurf doing so well on his own, he just

comes across as an Anti-Christian bigot. I really don't know why you secular-humanistic folks are so afraid of

religion. The Countries of the world get father and farther away from the values religion everyday.

If

anything, religious people should fear athestic and totally secular governments. Just ask the Jewish survivors of

Nazi Germany,or the millions of Christians persecuted and murdered under the various Marxist countries that have

plagued the world.

This is my last post in this discussion. It is just going to become a pissing contest, And

the thread in my opinion never should have been started in the first place.

Politics and religion are bad

topics to bring up on any forum, not to mention a pheromone website, where business is conducted. Some people may be

offended at what is said, one way or another,and it could possibly cost Bruce business.

[phersurf]

Anytime someone brings up

keeping religion (all religion) out of government, they get tagged as being "anti-Christian"! I'm not sure why this

happens.

Beleive me, I have no bigotry at all towrad any relgion. I was brought up Jewish and all my

grandparents were in concentration camps. I know what religious persecution is, and what a slippery slope the US is

headed down.

[DrSmellThis]

Nice try Doc.

Stick to dancing. You never once stated what the exact words of the First Amendment say. As for Phersurf doing so

well on his own, he just comes across as an Anti-Christian bigot. I really don't know why you secular-humanistic

folks are so afraid of religion. The Countries of the world get father and farther away from the values religion

everyday.

If anything, religious people should fear athestic and totally secular governments. Just ask the

Jewish survivors of Nazi Germany,or the millions of Christians persecuted and murdered under the various Marxist

countries that have plagued the world.

This is my last post in this discussion. It is just going to become a

pissing contest, And the thread in my opinion never should have been started in the first place.

Politics and

religion are bad topics to bring up on any forum, not to mention a pheromone website, where business is conducted.

Some people may be offended at what is said, one way or another,and it could possibly cost Bruce

business.I'll leave it to others to reply to this post in full, if they want to. But here is the Cornell

Law School Legal Information Institute's analysis of the First Amendment, including the text of the amendment

itself. People can read for themselves:



http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.ht

ml (http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html)

[Mtnjim]

Anytime someone

brings up keeping religion (all religion) out of government, they get tagged as being "anti-Christian"! I'm not

sure why this happens.
For the same reason some people label people who disagree with them "liberals"

with the "bad" connotation.