I don't get it...

[real_wiseman]

Hi guys,
I

have been here for a long time, but never asked this kind of question but here goes:

I recently met a girl I

used to meet alot (she had a coffeeshop where I bought my espresso almost daily) and back then we talked quite a

lot, she sat down with me and took a coffee herself etc.

She sold the coffeeshop almost a year ago and said

at that time that we could keep in touch, maybe have lunch etc.. I gave her my number and basically forgot about it

(since I know that "let's eat lunch" often means "let's *not* eat lunch").

By pure chance I met her again

some weeks ago. She was glad to see me and once again said that we should keep in touch. She gave me her

cellphone-number and actually stood close beside me to make sure I programmed it correct into my mobile.

I

said that "I'll sms you later so you get my number".

I tried to sms her twice some days after that (since I

saw that my first sms "bounced"), but there was no answer. I called her and got her voicemail.

So I sms'ed

her again (and saw that it indeed was delivered) and said that it was easier if she was striaght if she had changed

her mind about lunch etc. instead of me "chasing her".

Then I just let it go. 2 sms and 1 call is

enough...

But I am confused here. WTH was she so eager giving me her number, but after that just ignoring

me?

Anybody?

// rw

[belgareth]

There could be any number of

reasons. I think somehting similar has happened to all of us. I gave up even trying to figure it out. She probably

has what is a perfectly reasonable explanation in her eyes but you'll probably not ever hear it. Forget it, it

isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Pancho1188]

She may just not have had the

time to get back to you...and you just pulled a George Costanza (a la "The Phone Message") by calling and freaking

out on her about it. I hate when people do that to me, too, but then I think about times I have done it. Just the

other week my best friend from HS called me, and I have yet to get back to him. It's not that I don't want to,

it's just that I had stuff going on and then became sick. As soon as I get better and have time to talk, I'm

going to call him...

There's always the off chance that she did want to call but didn't have time...I hope

that, like the episode of Seinfeld, she finds your panic funny, or else she'll just take you as pushy for being

hung up on that lunch and never end up calling you.

Sorry, man. If it's not that, it's what Bel said.

[seduceme]

Listen, just cause she's

eager to give you her phone number DOESNT MEAN SHE WANTS YOU! Some women do enjoy the validation of being 'chased'

by alot of guys. She set the trap, you fell into it. You shouldnt even have volunteered your phone# by saying

you'll give her an SMS, keep HER hanging if you'll call her or not. Too validated and she wont be interested in

you.

[silksand]

I think it's just silly (or

paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G. Costanza phone call

(never a good idea!)

As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene between giving the

number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection with this woman in

the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let folks take their own

time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

PS:
If a guy assumes that all women are

gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!

[seduceme]

I think it's

just silly (or paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G.

Costanza phone call (never a good idea!)

As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene

between giving the number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection

with this woman in the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let

folks take their own time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

PS:
If a guy assumes that all

women are gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!


Youre a female

right? ;)

[silksand]

Ohhhh, that's right. Please

excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun intended)

[TexasHoldem22]

side notes:
Let me make

one thing clear before anything else: Women DONT make the first call. EVER. not even the second call.
They are not

mentally trained to pick up your number, go over the phone and ask for you. You know how nervous we feel when we

wana call some chick we like for the first time. how you dont know what to say and so forth. well, they go through

this too, but only the realize they dont have to do it. why should they be persuading some guy to come put? Thats

the guy's job. What if they call adn you reject them... how are they gonna feel then? you see where im going with

this?

[belgareth]

Ohhhh, that's

right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun

intended)
Silksand,

You are always welcome to an opinion here. Personally, I'd listen to a woman's

opinion about how women think long before any so called 'pick up artist'. I imagine that there is a huge silent

majority that don't play all those silly games. I certainly don't and would not waste my time with any woman who

did. I'm not a pick up artist but have had a number of excellent relationships with some wonderful women, none of

whom played games with me.

It all depends on what and who you are seeking.

[seduceme]

Ohhhh, that's

right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun

intended)


Hell yeah why would I otherwise put that smiley at the end of my post? Geeze.. ;)

[silksand]

Bel, I know you are not like

that, nor are the great majority of the men here. I've been very impressed with the quality of posts by most of the

current regulars (and lots of past regulars, too). This board attracts a lot of kind, perceptive and thoughtful

people and I appreciate you all.

My post was intended solely for seduceme and in fact I was just going to

delete it, feeling that it was pointless. But now alas I've been quoted :think:

oh well! :o

live and

learn...

[belgareth]

Silksand,

I liked your

reply myself.

A day or two ago, Wood Elf and a few of her friends were reading some of the advice about women on

the forum and laughing themselves silly. She didn't want to post anything assuming that anybody would recognize it

for what it is. A lot of it is pretty bad though, isn't it?

[silksand]

Silksand,



I liked your reply myself.

A day or two ago, Wood Elf and a few of her friends were reading some of the

advice about women on the forum and laughing themselves silly. She didn't want to post anything assuming that

anybody would recognize it for what it is. A lot of it is pretty bad though, isn't it?

Well, uh, yes

Bel ... it is! It is sometimes good for a laugh, and sometimes it's pretty darn close to what I might call "hate

speech" and I get concerned for the young men who come here looking for "The Teaching," haha. But that will sort

itself out in time, and I don't think they need protecting - just an alternate voice, and many of us here seem

willing to give that.

The ones I really think about are the young women. I wish all 12-year-old girls could

be required to read the "article" in the current thread called "The Truth About Women" which would effectively

inoculate them against that type of behavior.

[belgareth]

The ones I

really think about are the young women. I wish all 12-year-old girls could be required to read the "article" in the

current thread called "The Truth About Women" which would effectively inoculate them against that type of

behavior.
Belgareth reaches for his soapbox, sets it in the middle of the room and climbs up on it...



If more fathers would take the time to teach their young daughters how they should really be treated, the attitude

towards women displayed here would be minimized. How are they supposed to understand how a real man is supposed to

behave other than by example? The father's job as role model has been sorely neglected in our society.

[silksand]

Agree wholeheartedly - and it

goes without saying that their *sons* might not feel so lost around how to behave with women, either.

[belgareth]

Agree

wholeheartedly - and it goes without saying that their *sons* might not feel so lost around how to behave with

women, either.
True. I haven't had to deal with that too much as I have all daughters. It's interesting

to see the kinds of guys they bring home compared to their friends. Only one has had to be chased away. Did you know

I collect swords? Great way to convince young men to be respectful to my daughters.

[esk6969]

Ugh... I can't resist. I have

to respond.

Are we really positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction" (where have I heard

that phrase before), does not have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated, in order to produce

similar experiences amongst different people?

Understand, most "pick up artists" (which I am not), or guys who

read the "seduction" sites (which I am), are not ONLY looking to "get laid". But, um, yeah - that's a big part of

it! This is LOVE-scent.com, correct?

Further, please know that, there is a specific reason most guys want to

get laid, fast, beyond the mere physical urge. It's a sad, and dreary place that we know as - "the friend zone".

I'm not sure if there was ever a Seinfeld episode on THAT, but I do know that every guy has experienced it. He's

head over heels for a girl that diplays all kinds of signs of interest, so, when he tries to escalate things to a

more sexual level (which is a normal and healthy thing to do in a romantic relationship, yes?), he here's those

dreaded words - "let's just be friends".

Right or wrong, it is a part of the modern dating ethos that -

before you have sex, you're "just friends". After that you're - something different. That could be any number of

things, but at least there are options - unlike the "friend zone" which, once entered into, there is no escape.



Silksand, guys have figured out that "I really like you as a friend, I think you're a great friend", when coming

from a woman they have a romantic interest in, isn't a compliment.

This goes right to the heart of all the "bad

seduction advice" - much of it is based on a saying from one of the first guys to quantify behaviorial techniques

and apply them to seduction - his statement was "I don't care what women want. I only care what they respond to."

BTW, this isn't a big secret. He said that, on the Oprah show (obviously, promoting his materials.) And no, I

don't have his materials, LOL.

Within that statement, there is an implied truth - that the difference between

what women SAY they want, and what women REALLY want, is different. That's where all the "bad advice" comes from.

Right there.

And really, can you blame most men for being confused? How many guys, who are/were genuinely

honest, nice guys, have "played therapist" to a woman they were romantically interested in, who had a boyfriend who

treated her like crap, that she complained about all the time? Who said she "only wanted a nice guy", when one was

sitting right in front of her? Who, when he tried to point that out, got - you guessed it - "let's just be

friends".

And they wonder why these guys become bitter?

Silksand, I'm glad to have you as part of this

discussion, you're certainly not "unwelcome", on the contrary. But, you've engaged this discussion, so I think

it's reasonable to ask an honest question of you:

Have you ever, in your life, allowed a guy who you knew you

were *not* romantically interested in, to take you out, buy you dinners, gifts, pay for things, spend a somewhat

signifigant amount of time & money with you, who displayed clear signs of romantic intent? While all the while,

knowing that your attraction was not mutual? And if so, how did you handle the situation? Were you honest with him

about it, and at what point? Did you finally breech the discussion, or did he, and after how long?

I am

genuinely interested to hear your answer.

[Pancho1188]

I think it's

just silly (or paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G.

Costanza phone call (never a good idea!)

As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene

between giving the number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection

with this woman in the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let

folks take their own time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

PS:
If a guy assumes that all women

are gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!
I somehow end up with the ones

who are afraid because too great of a guy came too early in their life plans...

No, I'm not kidding. I've had

one girl that wouldn't go out with me because she knew it would be a serious, meaningful relationship and, after

just being cheated on by her ex, was afraid to get hurt because she knew she would fall in love with me if she did

(she actually told me this later...when we finally started going out). I have another one (yes, present tense) that

wouldn't go out with me because she "doesn't get close to people" and she knew I was only too good at cutting the

crap and getting straight to true feelings...she felt herself getting too attached to me and broke away (she told me

this, too...while it was happening).

In other words, I could use a game player...despite the fact that I

couldn't get one because I don't put up with crap and I refuse to play along. My loss or my gain, depending on

how you look at it...


Ohhhh, that's right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this

thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun intended)
Sorry, SilkSand...we got rid of those a

long time ago. I almost went blind one time, so Bel put a stop to them. Sure, it's all fun and games 'til

somebody gets hurt... :trout:

In other words, you're welcome here.

[MOBLEYC57]

D I S R E S P E C T F U L & R U

D E, dem dar, she:whip: is. With the exception of death or sickness, one should never lose sight of those two words.

Especially when it doesn't cost one Lincoln (penny).

Do not lose sleep over it, but as the rest of the world

... there's always more interest in what we can't/couldn't control/have. :rant:

T'wat vill be

vill be. :drunk: Hey, sara, sara? :think:

[Pancho1188]

Are we really

positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction" (where have I heard that phrase before), does not

have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated, in order to produce similar experiences amongst

different people?

Understand, most "pick up artists" (which I am not), or guys who read the "seduction" sites

(which I am), are not ONLY looking to "get laid". But, um, yeah - that's a big part of it! This is LOVE-scent.com,

correct?
You are correct, but on this site we try to promote positive viewing of the art of attraction...as

in bettering yourself so you can get more women (hence the -mones)...not learning to scam women. Every vet on here

knows that -mones won't have women falling all over him, so we know that you have to have strong attractive

qualities as well. Therefore, promoting the assumption of these qualities, in which the behaviors should follow,

seems to be more to our liking than trying to find exactly how to "trick" women into sleeping with you while wearing

-mones.

It's a fine line, but you can see it if you look at a vet's posts on this forum compared to the more

devious "pick-up artist" posts on a seduction site. You're right, though. Not everyone is looking just for more

sex, and not everyone has a bitter view of the game or the opposite sex. We just try to discourage people from

learning from the ones who do. Why? Because learning about the qualities that cause the behaviors is more

fulfilling and successful in the long-term compared to learning the specifics for a "quick fix" or fast lay.

[belgareth]

For me, there's a simple line

drawn. I've been the guy who listened to the teary eyed girl complaining about her boyfriend being a jerk and

hoping I could replace him once. Anybody who makes that mistake twice gets what they deserve. I won't blow her off

and tell her to go away but I am not going to waste time thinking I am going to get anywhere with her. The same

applies to the pick up games people play. I'll walk away from any woman who wants to play them. I am not going to

waste my time and energy dealing with it/them.

Those of you that know me know I am independent, strong willed

and sure of myself. I do what I want, when I want to and make no apologies for who and what I am. I don't play

games but am a considerate gentleman in the way I deal with people. As a result, I have had many fine women who were

willing to meet me half way and respect me for what I am. Right now, two women live in my house, one wants to marry

me and the other is kind of a guest who is a part time lover. I think my methods work without wasting all that time

and energy on games and while showing respect for the women around me. I do not manipulate but will not be

manipulated either.

[silksand]

Ugh... I can't

resist. I have to respond.

Are we really positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction"

(where have I heard that phrase before), does not have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated,

in order to produce similar experiences amongst different people?

Of course not! But *empty*

replication of behaviors makes you ... a replicant! If you ARE an excellent dude with all the shiny behaviors to

match, the chicks will come (not the player chicks, so if you want one (or multiples) of those, stop reading now).




Further, please know that, there is a specific reason most guys want to get laid, fast, beyond the

mere physical urge. It's a sad, and dreary place that we know as - "the friend zone". I'm not sure if there was

ever a Seinfeld episode on THAT, but I do know that every guy has experienced it. He's head over heels for a girl

that diplays all kinds of signs of interest, so, when he tries to escalate things to a more sexual level (which is a

normal and healthy thing to do in a romantic relationship, yes?), he here's those dreaded words - "let's just be

friends".

Right or wrong, it is a part of the modern dating ethos that - before you have sex, you're

"just friends". After that you're - something different. That could be any number of things, but at least there

are options - unlike the "friend zone" which, once entered into, there is no escape.

Silksand, guys have

figured out that "I really like you as a friend, I think you're a great friend", when coming from a woman they have

a romantic interest in, isn't a compliment.

You know, the "friend" thing IS a compliment, but if

you are looking for a lover, it's also a rejection of that quest. Just face it. It's not because you're not doing

the game right, you're just not doing it for her. She's not interested in you, move on!! Becoming a player is not

going to get you those girls. Sad but true.



And really, can you blame most men for being

confused? How many guys, who are/were genuinely honest, nice guys, have "played therapist" to a woman they were

romantically interested in, who had a boyfriend who treated her like crap, that she complained about all the time?

Who said she "only wanted a nice guy", when one was sitting right in front of her? Who, when he tried to point that

out, got - you guessed it - "let's just be friends".

And they wonder why these guys become bitter?



So your implication seems to be that if he's good enough to be her friend, and she says she wants a

nice guy, she should lay him? Uh, maybe he just doesn't ring her chimes sexually (could be his looks, his smell,

his personality, any number of things that might not disqualify him as a friend but do put him out of the running as

a boyfriend).



Silksand, I'm glad to have you as part of this discussion, you're certainly not

"unwelcome", on the contrary. But, you've engaged this discussion, so I think it's reasonable to ask an honest

question of you:

Have you ever, in your life, allowed a guy who you knew you were *not* romantically

interested in, to take you out, buy you dinners, gifts, pay for things, spend a somewhat signifigant amount of time

& money with you, who displayed clear signs of romantic intent? While all the while, knowing that your attraction

was not mutual? And if so, how did you handle the situation? Were you honest with him about it, and at what point?

Did you finally breech the discussion, or did he, and after how long?

I am genuinely interested to hear

your answer.

This is going to really disappoint you, but no. There is only one story that even

approaches this topic: One time when I was a freshman in college, and this geeky redhaired guy, very smart, very

funny, I really liked him, asked me to go with him to a (free) movie. I was really happy, hoping to have a friend in

him. Then we went back to his room and he got me extremely high (I'd never smoked anything in my life before that)

and made some rather sudden moves. Much more than I had in my mind with him. I was not attracted to him and did not

see this as a "date." At that point, in my Thai stick haze, I made it clear that I was very interested in friendship

with him, but he apparently wasn't because I never heard from him again, and that's cool. He wanted a lover and I

wasn't it; c'est la vie.

I don't tend to let men spend money on me in excess of what I spend on them. I

prefer to keep the power shared, and nobody owes anybody anything. I certainly don't lead anyone on, what for? If

someone makes it clear they have romantic intentions that I don't share, I find it very uncomfortable to perpetuate

the situation and move very quickly to clear it up. Otherwise people get more hurt than they would otherwise

be.

I have several times been seriously involved with 2 people at once, and staying emotionally clean (i.e.,

taking care of everybody's feelings and all the time & communication involved) in that kind of arena takes way more

energy than I care to give it anymore. At that point, it becomes almost a profession.

[esk6969]

Those of you

that know me know I am independent, strong willed and sure of myself. I do what I want, when I want to and make no

apologies for who and what I am.
Fascinating that you should say that, Bel. The "guru" I mentioned

above, from the Oprah show, has a core saying in his teaching of his techniques. BTW, his name is Ross Jeffries,

and he teaches the "Speed Seduction" system, which was really the first system to apply NLP techniques to romantic

interactions (for anyone interested). FYI, much of his stuff is regarded as cheesy, and out of date.

Anyway,

the core attitude that Jeffries teaches is:

"I make no excuses for myself, or my desires as a man. I move

through the world without apology."

Perhaps there are semantic differences between that and what's written

above, but to me, not much.



I don't play games but am a considerate gentleman in the way I

deal with people.

Doing well with women, and being a gentleman, are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to

me, the two are part & parcel of one another. This is a point I frequently make when posting on those "other

sites".



Right now, two women live in my house, one wants to marry me and the other is kind

of a guest who is a part time lover. I think my methods work without wasting all that time and energy on games...


HAHAHAHA!!! This is hilarious! I bow before the master! Seriously! :box: What 'mones were you wearing

again, LOL.....

Bel, that's great. But I've got news - you are, what the guys on the seduction sites refer to

as "a natural". You are one of those guys who is "just good" with women by "just being yourself". Naturals, almost

invariably, assume then that just "being yourself" is the best advice they can give. But face it - most guys, left

to their own devices, are DORKS. Not many of us can work into a situation where we live with two women in the SAME

house, and are romantically involved with both, and neither one scratches the other's eyes out. Almost every man,

if he could do that on his own, would. I respect that your attitude and mindframe get you what you want out of life

- but a lot of guys, most guys, need a little extra help with this sort of stuff.







For me, there's a simple line drawn. I've been the guy who listened to the teary eyed girl complaining about her

boyfriend being a jerk and hoping I could replace him once. Anybody who makes that mistake twice gets what they

deserve.
Glad you only dealt with it once. Used to be the story of my life, until I learned better. Some

of us are slower learners.

[seduceme]

Now, the

"friend" thing IS a compliment, but if you are looking for a lover, it's also a rejection of that quest. Just face

it. It's not because you're not doing the game right, you're just not doing it for her. She's not interested in

you, move on!! Becoming a player is not going to get you those girls. Sad but

true.


WRONG!!
Im the living example of the contradiction to that fact.
Not that I

would call me a player, but if you mean that altering your behavior and calibrating to a specific girl who just

wants to be friends and getting her to think otherwise of you then yes Im the living example of _that_. Its not

rocketscience but it does require effort and a will to learn and apply to real life circumstances.








This is going to really disappoint you, but no. There is only one story that even

approaches this topic: One time when I was a freshman in college, and this geeky redhaired guy, very smart, very

funny, I really liked him, asked me to go with him to a (free) movie. I was really happy, hoping to have a friend in

him. Then we went back to his room and he got me extremely high (I'd never smoked anything in my life before that)

and made some rather sudden moves. Much more than I had in my mind with him. I was not attracted to him and did not

see this as a "date." At that point, in my Thai stick haze, I made it clear that I was very interested in friendship

with him, but he apparently wasn't because I never heard from him again, and that's cool. He wanted a lover and I

wasn't it; c'est la vie.


Correction, he wanted _YOU_ as a lover, not just a lover.

[belgareth]

Fascinating that

you should say that, Bel. The "guru" I mentioned above, from the Oprah show, has a core saying in his teaching of

his techniques. BTW, his name is Ross Jeffries, and he teaches the "Speed Seduction" system, which was really the

first system to apply NLP techniques to romantic interactions (for anyone interested). FYI, much of his stuff is

regarded as cheesy, and out of date.In my case in comes from another philosophy that has nothing to do with

women other than the fact that they are a part of the human race. The unfortunate part is that it is uniquely mine

with no direct reference to any particular teaching.




Doing well with women, and being a

gentleman, are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to me, the two are part & parcel of one another. This is a point I

frequently make when posting on those "other sites"..No disagreement. However, some of the posts in this and

other threads seem to say "Be an asshole and you'll get laid more often." It may be true but isn't how I choose to

live.



HAHAHAHA!!! This is hilarious! I bow before the master! Seriously! :box: What 'mones

were you wearing again, LOL.....

Bel, that's great. But I've got news - you are, what the guys on the

seduction sites refer to as "a natural". You are one of those guys who is "just good" with women by "just being

yourself". Naturals, almost invariably, assume then that just "being yourself" is the best advice they can give. But

face it - most guys, left to their own devices, are DORKS. Not many of us can work into a situation where we live

with two women in the SAME house, and are romantically involved with both, and neither one scratches the other's

eyes out. Almost every man, if he could do that on his own, would. I respect that your attitude and mindframe get

you what you want out of life - but a lot of guys, most guys, need a little extra help with this sort of stuff.

Here I'll disagree. If I'm a natural it's a trained natural. My attitudes are mine because I learned them

someplace, mostly the school of hard knocks. I have a large flat spot in the center of my forehead from beating it

against the wall.:frustrate If they are dorks, that's because of what they have learned to be. They need to learn

something new. Now refer back to what I said about assholes above. I am saying that there are good and in my opinion

better, more sustainable alternatives than the "how to live like a jerk in three easy lessons" approach that I see

posted so often lately. It isn't just being yourself, it's learning to be the best you can be and being proud of

what you are. It is also something you never master but can only keep trying to do.

Frankly, two women in one

house wasn't my idea and can be more than a little uncomfortable at times. The saving grace is that they are good

friends and seem to deal with it much better than I do.




Glad you only dealt with it once.

Used to be the story of my life, until I learned better. Some of us are slower learners.Sorry to hear that.

I try to make the same mistake as seldom as possible. Doesn't mean I don't make the same mistake just that I try

hard to learn from my own stupidity, which I have in abundance.

[esk6969]

Of course not!

But *empty* replication of behaviors makes you ... a replicant!
Agreed. Actually, you might want to

check out some of the seduction sites, rather than that goofy "truth about women" thread. What kicked that thread

off was an advertisement. That's marketing, not seduction. Wait, what was the difference again? :think:



Anyway, if you check out the sites, you'll see that there is a LOT of discussion about "inner game", vs. "outer

game". Endless debates rage on about which is more important, and whether one leads to the other. As if the 2 are

mutually exclusive.

They aren't. Becoming a REAL "PUA", (Pickup Artist) is all about attitude and mindset, not

replicating techniques. The more experienced guys on any of those sites will be the first to tell you that.

Although, a lot of guys *do* tend to do exactly what you describe above - they read about certain behaviors and

techniques, go out and apply them with no internal congruence, and then wonder why they aren't successful.






You know, the "friend" thing IS a compliment, but if you are looking for a lover, it's also a

rejection...
So it's both a compliment, as well as a rejection? LOL, I mean this in a very good-natured

way, if we were having this discussion around a table with friends over beers, I would elbow nudge you right now -

but I'm sorry, that is classic "chick logic".



So your implication seems to be that if he's

good enough to be her friend, and she says she wants a nice guy, she should lay him? ...
No. My

implication is that she should DATE him, instead of sitting there complaining she "just wants a nice guy", when one

is sitting in front of her, and by her own admission, her current boyfriend is a jerk. She will lay him after he

applies seduction techniques (lol, couldn't resist.....:rofl: )



This is going to really

disappoint you, but no....

Why would I be disappointed with that? Do you really believe that I thought

you'd come back and go "why yes, I use men to buy me things and cocktease them all the time! Looks like ya got me,

esk!" And, what makes you think I'm done yet? ;)




I don't tend to let men spend money

on me in excess of what I spend on them.
Good for you. Now the next part of my question: In your

experience - women you either know, or know of... would you say the same applies? I.E., they do "not let men spend

time or money with them" in excess of what they themselves also spend? And, while doing (or not doing) so, would

you say that most of them are also as clear and up front about their romantic/non-romantic intentions as you?

[esk6969]

In my case in

comes from another philosophy that has nothing to do with women other than the fact that they are a part of the

human race. The unfortunate part is that it is uniquely mine with no direct reference to any particular teaching.


Whoa, let's be clear, I didn't mean to imply that you got your attitude from any place other than your

own experience. In fact, I was attempting to use that to point out how, it was ironic that the seduction materials

mirror a conclusion that YOU reached on your own, not the other way around. But I can see from my post how that

might have been taken differently. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

You're missing out on an untapped

market niche, Bel. "How I Live With Two Hot Women, WITHOUT Being a Jerk!" Good title, huh? Admit it, you're

thinking about it maybe just a little.....:POKE: Let me know when I can buy my copy....

[belgareth]

Whoa, let's be

clear, I didn't mean to imply that you got your attitude from any place other than your own experience. In fact, I

was attempting to use that to point out how, it was ironic that the seduction materials mirror a conclusion that YOU

reached on your own, not the other way around. But I can see from my post how that might have been taken

differently. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

You're missing out on an untapped market niche, Bel. "How

I Live With Two Hot Women, WITHOUT Being a Jerk!" Good title, huh? Admit it, you're thinking about it maybe just a

little.....:POKE: Let me know when I can buy my copy....:rofl: Couldn't write a book about it. It's too

simple...when all else fails DUCK AND COVER!

Seriously, this is my home and I have firm opinions about the way

people act in my home and very few options if they don't want to accept my rules. My rules stick because they know

me well enough to know I will not live with anybody under any conditions but fairness and courtesy to one another.

But, like I said, it was not my idea. They had to do some serious talking to convince me and the other lady's

situation was the deciding factor, not the potential for a second lover. That jus evolved.

[Traggard]

Look it is quite simple. Men

are programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain hip to waist

ratio etc.

Women are programmed to be attracted to symmetry as well, but the big difference is that they are

more attracted to personality traits then what men are. The personality traits that attract women are often

indicators of high status. Dominance, humour, confidence, not supplicating etc. So the process of being attracted to

someone works differently for men and women. There is no more “trickery” or deception for men to study seduction

then it for women to spend and hour or more each day working on their appearance.

[silksand]

They

aren't. Becoming a REAL "PUA", (Pickup Artist) is all about attitude and mindset, not replicating techniques. The

more experienced guys on any of those sites will be the first to tell you that. Although, a lot of guys *do* tend

to do exactly what you describe above - they read about certain behaviors and techniques, go out and apply them with

no internal congruence, and then wonder why they aren't successful.

Actually I have checked fast

seduction and open seduction. Not much for me there, frankly. That's just not a world I live in.





So it's both a compliment, as well as a rejection?

Okay, let me ask you - has a

girl ever expressed (in whatever indirect way) that she wants you, and you've had to tell her that to you, she is a

friend and not a girlfriend? Was it painful for you to do? Did you avoid the "friend" part because that's such a

bad thing to say to someone? When I truly care about someone as a friend, I think that's worth mentioning, don't

you? I have been on the receiving end of this one myself - the first time I fell in love in my life, in fact, was

with a friend in college, and he did not feel the same way. But we remained good friends and I have no regrets about

any of it.



My implication is that she should DATE him, instead of sitting there complaining

she "just wants a nice guy", when one is sitting in front of her, and by her own admission, her current boyfriend is

a jerk. She will lay him after he applies seduction techniques (lol, couldn't resist.....:rofl: )



Oh, so she SHOULD let him spend money on her, lead him on, even though at this point she does not

see him as a potential partner? Not consistent! If she thinks he's a possible-maybe contender, she's not going to

use the "friend" line. If she doesn't think he is, does he still want to take her out?



Why

would I be disappointed with that?

Simply because it's boring.



Now the

next part of my question: In your experience - women you either know, or know of... would you say the same applies?

I.E., they do "not let men spend time or money with them" in excess of what they themselves also spend? And, while

doing (or not doing) so, would you say that most of them are also as clear and up front about their

romantic/non-romantic intentions as you?

Well gosh, I know OF thousands of women. Some of them are

undoubtedly users and guilty of the crap that ALL of us are being smeared with. There are still lots of

"traditional" ladies out there who like it the way it's always been, and think they have to "work it" to get

theirs. They're easy to find. ;)

Of the women I know well, a few are like that. Of the women I'm close to,

none are like that. People who are that dishonest in romantic relationships give me the willies - men and women

both.

[Pancho1188]

Look it is

quite simple. Men are programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain

hip to waist ratio etc.

Women are programmed to be attracted to symmetry as well, but the big difference is that

they are more attracted to personality traits then what men are. The personality traits that attract women are often

indicators of high status. Dominance, humour, confidence, not supplicating etc. So the process of being attracted to

someone works differently for men and women. There is no more “trickery” or deception for men to study seduction

then it for women to spend and hour or more each day working on their appearance.If you're going to

generalize men in such fashion, then the correct way to generalize women on similar grounds is to say that they are

attracted to the ability to provide, protect, and support. Men desire visual traits because they're good signs of a

potential mate for the sake of healthy offspring. Women look for the ability to provide, protect, and support. Back

in the day, physical strength was big...now, it's money. High social standing has always been a big factor because

early it meant you were recognized by your peers as a good hunter, strong warrior, or a successful leader. Now,

social standing comes with power, money, and success. All of these things allow a man to provide, protect, and

support a woman and the couple's offspring. Therefore, they're desirable traits (remember, we're talking about

evolution here).

"Women are more attracted to personality traits" is a fallacy. Men look at personality traits

just as much as women do...just different ones. Women look for personality traits that align with the provide,

protect, and support factors (confidence, assertiveness, dominance, etc.). Men look for personality traits,

too...whether it be femininity, nurturing, and caring or seductive, confident, and strong-willed.

It's not that

the process is different, it's just that since men use visual cues and women use socioeconomical, personality

traits are much more indicative of the latter's potential. Men's instinctual jobs are just easier, that's all.



"She looks attractive. She must be capable of having healthy offspring."

vs.

"He looks and smells

attractive. Now that I have determined his potential to reproduce, I have to determine whether he's capable of

being able to protect, support, and provide for a family. After my initial look to see if he has the socioeconomic

potential, I have to speak with him and see if his personality fits my initial analysis."

That's the cost of

not being the one responsible for having the child...you have to go through a much more complex selection process.

:hammer:

Again, my disclaimer is that this is at the base of human instinctual mating habits. Personality and

feelings are much more involved in the selection process on both sides.

[esk6969]

Okay,

let me ask you - has a girl ever expressed (in whatever indirect way) that she wants you, and you've had to tell

her that to you, she is a friend and not a girlfriend? Was it painful for you to do? Did you avoid the "friend" part

because that's such a bad thing to say to someone? When I truly care about someone as a friend, I think that's

worth mentioning, don't you?.
Honestly, no, I don't. Guys aren't that sophisticated. We cannot

emotionally accept two divergent concepts like "compliment" and "rejection" at the same time. We can no more

deliver this to someone else, than we can accept it. If a guy is romantically interested in a girl, and it's

obvious, then, to a man's mind, at least, to MY mind, (I can't speak for all men), there are two possible options.

Either she:

a. Feels also romantically for him.
b. Does not feel romantically for him.

I cannot tell you

how many times in my life I was told "I don't want to ruin our special friendship." But guess what? You just did.

By rejecting the romantic overtures. Rejection hurts, right? Yet, I'm supposed to overlook the hurt, and just

focus on "but, she really likes me as a FRIEND, though.... YAYYYY!!!".

I'm sorry, that' just not realistic.

In EVERY case this happened, it promptly "ruined the friendship". It's selfish to ask a guy to be a friend, when

clearly he wants something more. If you don't feel the same way, that's fine, but it's unrealistic to expect the

other party to just overlook their feelings. So no, whether you truly care for them as a friend is not relevant -

except that, a real friend doesn't want to see the other in pain. It's better to just go separate ways.







Oh, so she SHOULD let him spend money on her, lead him on, even though at this point she does

not see him as a potential partner? Not consistent! If she thinks he's a possible-maybe contender, she's not going

to use the "friend" line. If she doesn't think he is, does he still want to take her out?



No....

she SHOULD see him based as a "potential partner", based on what she said. In the above fictitious (yet all too

often realistic) scenario, the following conditions exist:

a: chick unhappy with boyfriend
b: chick states she

wants "nice guy"
c: "nice guy" shows up

What happens next should be obvious, right? Based on her own

statements about what she wants, she should feel attraction towards the nice guy, especially if he makes his

interest known. Yet she doesn't feel the attraction, because she doesn't "see him as a potential partner". Why?

She stated criteria. He met (the stated) criteria. Yet the attraction doesn't exist. This actually proves my

above point - what women SAY they want, and WHAT THEY RESPOND to, are two separate things. That's why the "bad

seduction advice" teaches men:

"It doesn't matter what she says she wants. It only matters what she responds

to."

Not sure how I can state it any clearer than that.





Simply because it's

boring.


You don't seem boring to me, at least not yet. ;)




Well gosh, I

know OF thousands of women.
Copout. You know what I'm asking. Let me rephrase it: Are *most* women

likely to engage in, or have *most* women ever engaged in, the above described "leading on" behavior? Others please

feel free to chime in on that.

[wood elf]

Esk6969:
You confuse nice guy

with something else. Belgareth is a nice guy but he does not allow others to take advantage of him nor does he

attempt to buy a woman's affection. A man I knew in school always tried to please me with gifts and nice words. I

refused his gifts because I feared he would believe it placed an obligation on me. Some women would not have refused

but that is there choice. The man is as much at fault because he makes the assumption that the woman can be bought.

Why do many men assume a woman can be bought, that she or her body is for sale?

[silksand]

esk6969,

You did not

answer my question about whether you had ever had a female friend who YOU had to reject, and what that was like for

you. In my experience it's not that easy to reject people, especially those you care for. I really would like to

hear about what this experience is like for you; it's a side of the story we don't get to hear very often.




In EVERY case this happened, it promptly "ruined the friendship".

As I said in my

last post, this has not always been the case for me, whether it's me or my friend who's being turned down as a

lover. It's a choice. If you can handle it, you can stay friends. If not, you don't, and don't torture yourself,

but recognize that she is not "doing this to you" - it's your choice whether to persist in enjoying her company,

even if it's not in her bed. (I also tend to stay friends with ex-lovers, unless they did a jekyll-n-hyde on me,

very rare). Why make it all or nothing? It's not logical! ;) It's VERY romantic, though - the French Foreign

Legion and all that.



What happens next should be obvious, right? Based on her own statements

about what she wants, she should feel attraction towards the nice guy, especially if he makes his interest known.

Yet she doesn't feel the attraction, because she doesn't "see him as a potential partner". Why? She stated

criteria. He met (the stated) criteria.

You know any women who truly have just ONE criterion for

a mate? This argument is kind of obtuse, don't you think? I mentioned a few reasons why she might like him as a

friend, want a nicer lover than the one she has, yet not want that particular friend in her bed. I have LOTS of

criteria, don't you?



"It doesn't matter what she says she wants. It only matters what she

responds to."

True, as far as it goes. Actions do speak louder than words. If these techniques

work for you and you like the quality of women you end up with, you like the quality of the interactions you have

and the level of intimacy afforded by them, then you go for it.


You don't seem boring to me, at

least not yet. ;)


Give me time, I'm sure I'll get there. But my comment referred to my

story, not myself.



Copout. You know what I'm asking. Let me rephrase it: Are *most* women

likely to engage in, or have *most* women ever engaged in, the above described "leading on" behavior? Others please

feel free to chime in on that.

Well darlin', I DID answer your question, and you did not acknowledge

my full answer. Some women do those things, and I don't care to hang with them. You don't have to either. I don't

think that's acceptable behavior on any level. Anyone who feels qualified to assess the behavior of "most" women is

welcome to do so. Anyone looking for a golddigger or a ho can certainly find one. There are also plenty of

down-to-earth women like myself who have no patience for BS or for some kind of adversarial gamesmanship between the

sexes. Please, that is SO old. Men and women ARE different, but we are much more alike in our humanness than we are

different. A guy that really, really gets this is worth keeping around.

[Pancho1188]

Esk6969:
You

confuse nice guy with something else. Belgareth is a nice guy but he does not allow others to take advantage of him

nor does he attempt to buy a woman's affection. A man I knew in school always tried to please me with gifts and

nice words. I refused his gifts because I feared he would believe it placed an obligation on me. Some women would

not have refused but that is there choice. The man is as much at fault because he makes the assumption that the

woman can be bought. Why do many men assume a woman can be bought, that she or her body is for sale?
I'm

sure you haven't read it, but you've practically nailed the profile of a "nice guy" from the book, No More Mr.

Nice Guy. Good call.

[surfs_up]

there are those who have struggled wisely and those who struggled unwisely...

underneath it all they're looking for meaning, a powerful sense of connection that enlarges your sense of self.

That sense of self enlargement may begin lower down Maslow's hierarchy of needs: the need to be admired, envied, to

stand out, to count for something, to have an effect on people... this may be outgrown, OK, people saw, they

admired, they wanted what I had, my male prowess was acknowledged, then you either find yourself hooked up with a

stranger you thought you knew, or you discover new levels of mutual evolution, kind of a thrilling feeling of

acceleration in your butt when you realize you are growing twice as fast as you possibly could on your own, that's

when you really appreciate the value of how the differences between aren't hopeless chasms but valuable shifts of

perspective (assuming there's congruence at the level of basic beliefs about life)... sure you can live with a

round of ego recharging, one after another for a while until you reach a point where each one becomes more draining

than the last one, you get this weird feeling in the pit of your stomach that you should be some other place with

your mind, you need to make things deeper, fuller... comic books won't cut it any more, you want to read

novels...

[DumLuc]

I don't get it....what ever

happened to just having fun?

[Gegogi]

Traggard writes, "Men are

programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain hip to waist ratio

etc."

Of course, the certain hip to waist ratio can and does vary considerably from man to man. I

know guys that are attracted to big 'n fat women. Some younger guys prefer women twice their age. I prefer slender

women with small breasts. I don't think you can generalize too much here other than "most men are attracted to

women." Beyond that, it's pretty wide open. Otherwise the human race would have stopped reproducing long ago.

[surfs_up]

things that are fun for a 20 year old may be ridiculous for a 40 year old. 40

year old guys who haven't gotten past the thrill levels of their late teens-early twenties are generally looked

upon as social retards...which isn't to say that you still don't retain a sense of wild assed adventure sometimes,

maybe however you learn to be more *discriminating*... seems to come down to *taste*, taste in music, taste in

people, taste in what you do with your own imagination, taste in what you read, the words you use, the places you

go...

[esk6969]

All: Just to be clear, I have

no dog in this fight. Which is why I am able to argue for it dispassionately. I am married, almost 10 years, 33

yo, 3 kids. My primary interest in both pheromones and "seduction" techniques, for lack of a better term (perhaps -

behavior alteration would be better), is two fold: One, to get an "edge" in business dealings, and two, to assist

me in navigating the often troubled waters of marriage. It's just that, I see a lot of guys making many of the

same mistakes I did when I was learning - and also, so much of what I see on these sites rings so true to my own

past experiences in dealing with women. IOW, things that the seduction sites say don't do, I did, and I suffered

for it. When I started doing SOME of the things recommended on those sites, even though it was long before such

sites existed, things started to improve for me. Therefore, I argue in favor of their techniques, for one simple

reason: They work. I know that they work, independently of the sites or books themselves, because I've done many

of those things myself, and also known many other people in my social circle to do them as well, and apply them with

success.

Woodelf: Not sure how we got off on the tangent of "buying women". Of course, I mean to imply no such

idea that either women can be bought, nor that they should feel obligated if money is spent on them. Rather, the

opposite, in that they should *not* be bought, and that passion, attraction, and ulimately, seduction (women do also

seduce men, do they not?), should be a by-product of mutual feelings, rather than some sort of transactional

equivalancy. You are right, any guy who buys things for women and automatically expects something in return is

kinda creepy. When I was in my supplicating/AFC days, I didn't buy things, dinners, drinks, etc. for women in

expectation of some sort of reciprocation - I did it, because I liked them, and wanted to spend time with them, and

was taught that a gentleman always pays for dates and such - whether anything romantic comes of it or not. Sad fact

is, many women do take advantage of that, and that is why chivalry is dead.

Reminds me of a scene from my

adolescence: Once, my stepsister was talking about this AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) she "dated", but clearly had

no romantic interest in, even though he CLEARLY had it for her. My father and stepmother were asking her why she

kept leading him on like that, and she said "I don't know... he's very loyal, kind of like a dog, HAHAHAHA." My

dad smiled, a very knowing smile, and said right to her, in a very father-to-daughter kind of a way... "THAT'S why

women get what they deserve. Right there." I'll never forget it.

Silksand: You're right, it is getting a

little boring at this point. Mostly because we're starting to talk in circles. I don't think either one of us

will be persuaded to the other's point of view, but I think we've each argued well in favor of our viewpoints.

Hopefully, this will be of help to others to read and decide.

To answer your questions: I didn't answer your

question about rejection, because I can't honestly think of a time when I've been in that situation. Understand,

I have MAJOR CEE, (Clint Eastwood Effect), and always have. It's one of the reasons I'm here on Lovescent. CEE

is real. Most people are naturally afraid of me. That is not a boast, but a curse. It maybe served me well in

high school, not such a good quality in a 33 year old.

As for: "There are also plenty of down-to-earth women

like myself who have no patience for BS or for some kind of adversarial gamesmanship between the sexes. Please, that

is SO old."

Ok, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I have never known a woman who did not play

games, including my wife. Understand, I'm not viewing this as an "adversarial" relationship - any more than I view

business dealings as "adversarial", though a lot of people do. I do a bit of real estate investing - I notice

everyone has the same stance on that. It doesn't make sense to me. One side wants to sell the house. The other

wants to buy it. Ultimately, what both sides want is the SAME THING. They want for the house to change hands -

they just have different ideas of how to go about it.

I don't view interpersonal relationships any different.

EVERYONE engages in some sort of manipulation, gamesmanship, or whatever you want to call it, in order to get what

they want out of relationships, be they personal or business. I honestly don't view this as a bad thing, it's

just the way things are. I really honestly do conduct both my personal, as well as my business dealings, according

to the WIN/WIN philosophy. BUT- there are TWO "wins" in that sentence. In other words, it needs to be a win for

you - AND win for me. Not one side benefitting to the exclusion of the other, in *either* direction.

[surfs_up]

among the better surprises was that pheromones can be used to improve existing relationships. Its just

that different pheromones or different ratios between them are established by nature to make the initial connection

possible then shift into what happens once the connection is made. Quite often a relationship sticks in a logjam...

things that need to be said aren't being said, stagnation sets in, the mood becomes petty and critical... the -none

heavy passion arousing mixes aren't the answer. OTOH, a good shot of alpha/beta -nol with a chaser of

androstadienol and some androsterone can work wonders... In certain cases in my life a strong application in an

enclosed area was necessary to build the critical levels to throw the switch from shut down/grumpy/not

listening/judgemental to communicative/mind clearing/emotionally freeing conversation. Probably about as effective

as a dose of pure exstacy without the raunchy side effects of X, definitely therapautic, and definitely

psychologically eye opening. IMHO, a lot of role playing, dress up games, mask wearing are essentially a protective

distancing mechanisms, ways of not saying things or confronting issues because the players want to stay in well

defined "comfort zones", even if the lack of communication equals a kind of low risk comfort... which leads us to

point B, that real communication does involve risk, risk of judgement, risk of rejection, risk of being thought

freakish, strange, "not one of us", whoever "us" may be... that may explain why clear eyed candor is both unsettling

and refreshing if it is done with accuracy and tact... that's why good theater is unnerving, the actors are taking

emotional risks, they're going places that aren't too cool or too easy to go to, and they're doing it live on

stage in front of you, they can't run off satge and away from their feelings.... sure, and it can go the other way

too, like the jackasses who are always telling it like it is without regard to social nuances, the soulful

therapeutically too honest for words types who drive everyone up a tree with their earnest sincere nosiness... well,

back at the ranch, sooner or later you get to the place where you have the breakthrough to your inner selves, or

maybe you don't and just go round and round forever, not everybody wants or needs to know every other person like

that, a lot of personal stuff bores the shit out of me or has nothing to do with my purpose in being here....

[DumLuc]

There you go, surfs up. That's

what I meant about having fun. The attitude, not the age related specifics, is what really matters.

[noodlesnspam]

from my years of dating and

relationships, ive learned one thing i would consider the most important of all lessons as far as attraction and

what women want goes..and that is, nice guys finish last. Women always want what they cant have. The only way a nice

guy finishes first is when the woman has lowered her standards, or youre physical apperance overrides the other

variables, but if that happens, that means you have lowered your standards. Being nice and caring is the 5th and

last course of a 5 course meal. Being nice doesnt get you girls, it gets you friends, and it lets you keep girls

youve already bagged. Women are attracted to men who have many options available to them, b/c thats what makes them

attractive. You have to show them that they cannot do any better than you and at most they can only do just as well.

That keeps them on your leash b/c why start a new relationship and work out all the kinks just to reach what they

already have now? Change is only desired if for the better, so if you can show the girl youre with that she can at

most only do just as well if she left you, you have won the war.

[belgareth]

and that

is, nice guys finish last. Women always want what they cant have. The only way a nice guy finishes first is when the

woman has lowered her standards, or youre physical apperance overrides
Unmitigated hogwash!

You still

make the mistake of confusing a nice guy with a placating wimp. You can be nice, still be an alpha and still have

good results with attractive women.

[Pancho1188]

Unmitigated

hogwash!

You still make the mistake of confusing a nice guy with a placating wimp. You can be nice, still be an

alpha and still have good results with attractive women.
I think we have to accept the fact that the term

"nice guy" has adapted to mean either a pushover or the definition in No More Mr. Nice Guy (they do things

for others expecting something in return, they always aim to please, they never feel they deserve to do anything for

themselves, etc.). You'll have to just accept the fact that people like you, Bel, are not "nice guys" according to

the new definition. You are "Gentlemen", "Upstanding Men", or whatever you want to call yourselves...but "nice guy"

is no longer a word you should associate yourself with just because you're "nice" and you're a "guy". I only say

to accept it because I think this is a battle you'll lose to the general societal understanding of the term.

[belgareth]

Maybe so. One can always hope

that a few will figure it out if you say it often enough. My main problem is the accepted opposite of nice guy seems

to be jackass and I think that is a very bad attitude to promote.

[silksand]

I think we

have to accept the fact that the term "nice guy" has adapted to mean either a pushover or the definition in No

More Mr. Nice Guy (they do things for others expecting something in return, they always aim to please, they

never feel they deserve to do anything for themselves, etc.). You'll have to just accept the fact that people like

you, Bel, are not "nice guys" according to the new definition. You are "Gentlemen", "Upstanding Men", or whatever

you want to call yourselves...but "nice guy" is no longer a word you should associate yourself with just because

you're "nice" and you're a "guy". I only say to accept it because I think this is a battle you'll lose to the

general societal understanding of the term.

"Nice guy" doesn't say enough - I like the anti-wimp

connotations of "mensch" and "stand-up."

[Pancho1188]

Maybe so. One

can always hope that a few will figure it out if you say it often enough. My main problem is the accepted opposite

of nice guy seems to be jackass and I think that is a very bad attitude to promote. Very true. I think it's

kind of like a spectrum:

<----------------------------->
Nice Guy___Real Man___Jackass

In a way, jackass

is the opposite of a nice guy...and you have the perfect guy...the gentleman...the real man...the desirable

guy...whatever you want to call him in the middle.

I think the problem is generalization. The nice in

"nice guy" is emphasized as the bad part, and the ass in jackass is emphasized as the good part, when in

reality the nice is the good part about being a nice guy, and the ass is the bad part of being a jackass. The good

part of the jackass is the alpha persona, the confidence, the self-esteem and willingness to take risks, make

decisions, and go for what he wants...the bad part of the nice guy is the lack of those things.

[wood elf]

You say it well but I do not

think you have it correct. A nice guy can be so without any belief that others will do anything in return. He has

confidence in what he does, he does it for no reason but because he wishes to do it. He is a real man. As Belgareth

calls it, the Wimp is the one who expects something for his efforts where the nice guy expects nothing in return. Is

it not a little reprehensible to do a favor then expect something in return? That sounds more like barter to me. The

jackass is the same. He behaves like a fool, as much so as the wimp, and expects some return for what he does. To

display it accurately use a triangle with the nice guy or real man at the apex. The others are opposite corners of

the base.

[Pancho1188]

You're looking at the

definition of the "nice guy" from a female's (or your own if you don't want to generalize) perspective when she

says she wants a "nice guy". However, I'm using the definition of the "nice guy" from a male perspective, using the

definition in the book I reference every five seconds when speaking on the topic. I'm not saying you're wrong;

I'm saying that my spectrum is correct when using my definition because you can be on one side, the other, or in

the middle where you combine the beneficial qualities of both while limiting the negative ones.

Using my

definition, I do not see how a triangle would work because that would imply that they have three distinct qualities

when one combines the best of both of the others.


You can argue for your definition of a "nice guy" and be

correct because there's no set definition for it.

[Pancho1188]

http://nomoremrniceguy.com/ngs.php

The "Nice Guy", according to

No More Mr. Nice Guy:

http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_lg_l.gifThe Nice Guy

Syndromehttp://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_lg_r.gif



http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/spacer.gif
"I'm one of the nicest guys I know."
"How come I always

seem to give so much more than I get?"
"All I want is to be appreciated, is that asking too much?"
"I can never do

it right."http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/spacer.gif
Sound familiar? These are typical Nice Guy

sentiments. A nice guy's primary goal is to make others happy. Nice guys have been conditioned to believe that if

they are good, giving, and caring, they will be loved, get what they want, and have a smooth life.



http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_l.gifWho is a nice

guy?http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_r.gif

He is the relative who lets his wife run the

show.
He is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own life seems to be in shambles.
He is

the guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that nothing ever gets resolved.
He is the

boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to please someone else.
He is the man

who lets people walk all over him because he doesn't want to rock the boat.
He is the dependable guy at work

who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing on him.
He is the man whose life

seems so under control, until BOOM, one day he does something to destroy it

all.
http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_l.gifIn general, nice guys share the following

characteristics:http://nomoremrniceguy.com/assets/hdr_r.gif

Nice guys seek the approval of

others.
Nice guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
Nice guys put other people's needs and

wants before their own.
Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
Nice

guys tend to be disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy.
Nice guys co-create

relationships that are less than satisfying.
Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much

good sex.
Nice guys frequently fail to live up their full potential.
If the characteristics listed above

fit you or someone you know, read on. No More Mr. Nice Guy! presents a proven plan to help passively pleasing men

stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in love and life.

[silksand]

I can't even begin to tell you

how many WOMEN I know who fit the description of NICE GUY that you quote, Pancho. Women who do these behaviors call

themselves doormat, old shoe, too nice, a martyr... it's a curiously flexible, gender-nonspecific concept.

[Pancho1188]

I can't even

begin to tell you how many WOMEN I know who fit the description of NICE GUY that you quote, Pancho. Women who do

these behaviors call themselves doormat, old shoe, too nice, a martyr... it's a curiously flexible,

gender-nonspecific concept.
I won't argue that. I also won't argue the embarrassment that I have for

admitting that I fit the description. I need to reread that book... :run:

[wood elf]

You're

looking at the definition of the "nice guy" from a female's (or your own if you don't want to generalize)

perspective when she says she wants a "nice guy". However, I'm using the definition of the "nice guy" from a male

perspective, using the definition in the book I reference every five seconds when speaking on the topic. I'm not

saying you're wrong; I'm saying that my spectrum is correct when using my definition because you can be on one

side, the other, or in the middle where you combine the beneficial qualities of both while limiting the negative

ones.

Using my definition, I do not see how a triangle would work because that would imply that they have three

distinct qualities when one combines the best of both of the others.


You can argue for your definition of a

"nice guy" and be correct because there's no set definition for it.Pancho:

You use the definition of a

nice guy from a book written by one man. You are smart and intelligent. Did they not teach you to think for yourself

instead of relying on another's opinion? Of a certainty, this writer's definition is valid. Equally valid is

yours, Belgareth's and the guy you saw walking down the street. It is up to the person to decide what is the most

right to the situation.

I used a triangle for cause. There is no difference between the wimp and the jackass

other than method. They are both insecure and phony in how they cope with life, they seek reward for how they act

and what they do. Silksand is right to say that it also can be used to describe women. At the apex are those few men

and women who take the best of both and discard as much of the useless as they can. They are not equal to either of

the others but are superior.

You are right too that I use my own definition here. If you carefully consider it

you may find you do the same many times daily. Here for your reasons you have choosen to use another's.

[Pancho1188]

Pancho:



You use the definition of a nice guy from a book written by one man. You are smart and intelligent. Did they not

teach you to think for yourself instead of relying on another's opinion? Of a certainty, this writer's definition

is valid. Equally valid is yours, Belgareth's and the guy you saw walking down the street. It is up to the person

to decide what is the most right to the situation.

I used a triangle for cause. There is no difference between

the wimp and the jackass other than method. They are both insecure and phony in how they cope with life, they seek

reward for how they act and what they do. Silksand is right to say that it also can be used to describe women. At

the apex are those few men and women who take the best of both and discard as much of the useless as they can. They

are not equal to either of the others but are superior.

You are right too that I use my own definition here. If

you carefully consider it you may find you do the same many times daily. Here for your reasons you have choosen to

use another's.
(re: second paragraph) You're right.




I find your third sentence ironic. I

am relying on my own opinion. You speak like I don't think for myself when you should know from my posts that I

usually give my own opinion and never cite sources other than Seinfeld for kicks. I just cite this man's analysis

because he explains it better than I could. Besides, the definition I use is used my many people (just read those

seduction sites...nice guys are wimps on those forums); the book just defined it in print for me to copy and

paste.

[Gegogi]

Who is a nice guy?
He

is the relative who lets his wife run the show.
He is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own

life seems to be in shambles.
He is the guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that

nothing ever gets resolved.
He is the boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to

please someone else.
He is the man who lets people walk all over him because he doesn't want to rock the

boat.
He is the dependable guy at work who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing

on him.
He is the man whose life seems so under control, until BOOM, one day he does something to destroy it

all.
In general, nice guys share the following characteristics:
Nice guys seek the approval of others.
Nice

guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
Nice guys put other people's needs and wants before their

own.
Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
Nice guys tend to be

disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy.
Nice guys co-create relationships that are less

than satisfying.
Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much good sex.
Nice guys

frequently fail to live up their full potential.

I think all of the above is the definition of a

spineless coward (but a nice spineless coward). In other words, a loser. Being a nice guy is a positive thing. This

positive energy flows from inner strength and security in one's manhood and social status. Thus:


• A

nice guy is a confident, considerate and compassionate man.

• A nice guy stands up for what he believes in,

but understands the world doesn't revolve around him and is sensitive to the needs of others.

• A nice guy

also knows when to draw the line and doesn't take shit from anybody.

• A nice guy not above admitting he

was wrong, saying he's sorry or fixing what he has cast asunder.

--Gegogi

I consider myself

to be a nice guy. And I don't usually finish last. In fact I'm extremely gung-ho, often competitive, in nearly

everything I do. I enjoy kicking ass, being the best and pushing it to the limit. And that applies to my

relationships with women. Now that I think of it, my last GF told me I was a really nice guy. Oddly, at the end, she

said I was an incredible asshole. Cool, so maybe I'm an asshole/nice guy hydrid!

[satyrboy]

Belgareth

reaches for his soapbox, sets it in the middle of the room and climbs up on it...

If more fathers would take the

time to teach their young daughters how they should really be treated, the attitude towards women displayed here

would be minimized. How are they supposed to understand how a real man is supposed to behave other than by example?

The father's job as role model has been sorely neglected in our society.
I'm coming into this thread

late. Actually it's very simple to teach your daughter how a woman should be treated. I treat my wife the way I

hope my daughter will be treated. She's a smart kid, she'll figure it out.

[satyrboy]

I hope I don't offend anyone

too badly with this, but if you ever want a giggle go to the no more mr nice guy forum.

C'mon, where did all

this melodramatic people come from?!

I don't think the issue with that site and its acolytes has anything to

do with "nice." More like abscence of self esteem, self respect, and quite possibly the developement of a new

species: Homo invertebrus.

[wood elf]

Thank you Gegogi and Satyrboy.

You understand what I am saying. I have not seen that site but think it might be funny to visit and read. A nice guy

is the honorable one, the one that does usually finish first because he is determined and aggressive. Maybe it is a

maturity thing, that some grow into the ability to be a nice guy. I have not known many young men who have learned

to be truly nice guys without being wimps.

[wood elf]

I'm coming

into this thread late. Actually it's very simple to teach your daughter how a woman should be treated. I treat my

wife the way I hope my daughter will be treated. She's a smart kid, she'll figure it out.
Belgareth does

the same and has three smart daughters who understand to stay away from those types of men. He also talks to them

about men and relationships so he knows they will not stand to be treated as less than the young ladies they are.



I do not like to think what might happen to the young man that mistreats his daughter. The only times I have seen

him angry is when he was defending one of them. I fear some young man will learn a harsh and unpleasant lesson about

honor.

[noodlesnspam]

to clarify, the term 'nice

guy' used in the context i was referring to refer to the negative qualities of being too nice and thus what coined

the phrase "nice guys finish last". Im not saying being nice wont get you women, what im saying is, if you are able

to attract a lot of women and yet youre still a very nice guy, then you basically bagged the positives of being nice

without the negatives and thus being nice becomes lost in translation and thus combined with all of your other

positive attributes to make you attractive and women will never refer to you as a nice guy even though you maybe

nice. So what im saying is, essentially, youve accomplished mutating the "nice guy" qualities into something that

allows you to attract women. However, the blurry boundary of where being a nice guy becomes a bad thing is when you

become described as a nice guy. In society, generally speaking, women will never describe the men they are attracted

to as nice, even if they are nice, they will be described in another manner. Ive noticed that women who use the

phrase "nice guy" to describe a guy usually are not attracted to that guy. Thus, the phrase nice guy i think is

unconsciously being associated in that negative manner.

[Watcher]

2 types of nice guy

Those

that are excessively nice - whimps, walkovers, put up with a lot of female cr@p

Then you have guys that are

"nice" in a respectful way to women but dont put up with a lot of their crap - youre straightforward with them -

dont play most of hteir games unless you have a reason to. Etc you can still be respectful without being a

walkover.

[Pancho1188]

I hope I

don't offend anyone too badly with this, but if you ever want a giggle go to the no more mr nice guy forum.



C'mon, where did all this melodramatic people come from?!

I don't think the issue with that site and its

acolytes has anything to do with "nice." More like abscence of self esteem, self respect, and quite possibly the

developement of a new species: Homo invertebrus.Those same people have been called "nice guys" their whole

lives. I've been called a "nice guy" my whole life, so I think I know what the hell I'm talking about. This

difference in definition is why women say they want "nice guys" but never seem to get them. The reason: women are

saying they want nice guys according to Wood Elf's definition, but the people they actually call nice guys

fit my definition. That's why guys say women are liars...because they see the men that women call nice guys (my

definition), act like them, get called nice guys, and are never successful with women because the definitions

aren't the same.

I've seen this trend on personals sites. Women are catching on to the fact that the

definitions differ. How so? I've seen the new types of personal ads: "I want a nice guy...but he has to be

self-confident and assertive." In other words, they are finally beginning to realize that the guys they call nice

guys are not what they want...because every guy who has been called a "nice guy" his whole life fits the

description in NMMNG.

So, I'll say it again for emphasis...people should quit using the term "nice guy" to mean

a desirable man. It's taken on a life of its own to mean exactly the kind of guy that is not desirable: a guy who

will do anything to please and therefore nice to everyone thinking that will make him happy in life.

Just like a

person can be a "girl" and a "friend" and not be a "girlfriend", a person can be "nice" and a "guy" but not a "nice

guy"...a girl that's a friend is not necessarily a girlfriend, and a guy that's nice is not necessarily a nice

guy...

That's why nice guys finish last. They're not talking about men who are nice; they're talking about

the very same people satyrboy calls "homo invertebrus". You can laugh and say, "That's not what a nice guy is," but

maybe you're just learning for the first time what it actually means [to people].

Case in

Point

http://pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.ph

p?t=13521 (http://pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13521)

[esk6969]

Very true. I

think it's kind of like a spectrum:

<----------------------------->
Nice Guy___Real Man___Jackass



Pancho, the above chart should be required for all men who wish to date, and have success with women. You've

summed it up perfectly. :goodpost:

[belgareth]

Pancho,

You have the

differentation correct, I think. But you seem to be trying to back into the solution. Most women seem to understand

the difference, maybe it's instinctual. As demonstrated by Sayrboy, Gegogi and myself, some men already understand

the term and most probably could learn what it means. Let's follow the easiest path and teach young men the

difference. Do you really believe you can get the female half of this world to change what they seem to think works?

That sounds like an exercise in futility to me. :frustrate

[Pancho1188]

Pancho,



You have the differentation correct, I think. But you seem to be trying to back into the solution. Most women seem

to understand the difference, maybe it's instinctual. As demonstrated by Sayrboy, Gegogi and myself, some men

already understand the term and most probably could learn what it means. Let's follow the easiest path and teach

young men the difference. Do you really believe you can get the female half of this world to change what they seem

to think works? That sounds like an exercise in futility to me. :frustrate
:lol: You're absolutely right.

That's why I used the term "Real Man". Why? Women already use it... "I want a real man." That's what they

want, alright... :thumbsup: I'm just trying to prevent millions of fights every year between girls that say they

want nice guys and the guys that are the shoulder they cry on saying, "...but I'm a nice guy. If I'm what you say

you want, why won't you go out with me?" In other words, I'm doing a public service! :rofl:

So you're

saying to teach men the difference instead of teaching women? Well, maybe we can just teach everyone at the same

time. I recant my erroneous comment that implied to only educate women.

[belgareth]

The guys who whine "but I'm a

nice guy" usually aren't. What is their reasoning? "Gee, I'll be nice to her and that will get me laid, heheheh!"

Not really admirable. Could it be that at some deep down level women recognize that and are repulsed? At least the

jackass has the inherent honesty of admitting he wants to get laid and that's why he is acting so. The us against

them they display is still bad but has some merit in honesty.

[surfs_up]

People are so damn excessively complicated in the first place, men and

women... there were time when I was going nuts over a girl that I wanted to, well, jeeez, come to think of it I

wasn't exactly clear in my mind what I wanted, mindless sex, meaningful association, walking around looking at

consumer products ? Emotions would blow hot and cold, the next day the idea of hooking up with her didn't register

a 1 on my Richter scale... maybe we could smoke a joint or eat a couple of mushrooms and have more profound mindless

sex, and that could be kinda cool too even if we found ourselves both confused about where this thing was headed, or

the self protecting anti-grav field goes up and out of nowhere we absolutely cannot, cannot have a discussion about

anything,
or on the other hand she's 1000% into me and I'm 50% into her or I'm 1000% into her and she's 50%

into me, then as I get to know her better I'm 60% into her and she's 75% into me.... was she ovulating that night

at the Blind Tiger and recently broke up with her last boyfriend and needs to blow out the memory of him with a

couple of nights with crazy sex but she wants to watch Extreme Makeovers all them time which I couldn't care less

about or she talks to her mom 3 times a day on her cell wherever the hell she happens to be when I want to watch

Hitler and Stalin on the History Channel or I try diplomatically to her that she need to, uhh, you know, without me

feeling her teeth and maybe I could buy her some, ahhh, instructional videos and she brings it to my attention that

I have a bad habit or three that could use some attention.....

[Rbt]

I get a feeling much of what I'm

seeing here is a matter of semantics. We're not all working with the same dictionary or some published reference

(the authors of which may have put their own spin or interpretation on a term). Many of us use terms we've picked

up from our own local circles of friends/contacts/etc. and they could well differ from one place or group to

another.

Pancho188's author may be using the term "nice guy" in a negative light (and perhaps for the sake of

his book), while wood elf and Gegogi may personally see the term in a more positive light because that's the way

*they've* always used it. Similar: some people I know have used the term "jock" in a complimentary way, while

others consider it an insult.

Personally when I think of someone being a "nice guy" I follow wood elf's and

Gegogi's thoughts. I suppose if I had ever read No More Mr. Nice Guy I would be aware of the alternate useage of

the term based on the listed criterea in Pancho's post (which I'd also tend to call "spinless wuss/coward" like

Geogi said).

Please be aware I'm not dissing any of you. Just pointing out that everyone's "pool of

references" can be different. Terminology can differ, and can cause no end to confusion. I've been in many a

situation where arguments clear up or at least ease after someone has the wisdom to clarify the participant's

definitions and settles on shared/common meanings (at least common to the participants at that time and place).

Maybe we need to step back a moment and do that here.

(Uh oh, maybe I'm being too much of a Nice Guy...)

:blink:

[Gegogi]

RBT you are a nice guy and a

diplomat. But, yes, I think you are 100% correct. We're all fairly close in terms of underlying principles, but the

labels are messed up. I prefer a dictionary for my definitions and reject attempts by subcultures--youth, ethnic

groups, fuckenfast.com, whatever--to redefine common words and phrases. Remember a couple decades ago when Black

folks used "bad" to mean good? How about substance abuse? The universe is full of substances. Call them a drunk or a

drug addict! Communication is difficult enough without needless confusion. A spade should be called a spade, and a

spinless coward should be called a spinless coward, not a nice guy!

[Holmes]

I prefer a

dictionary for my definitions and reject attempts by subcultures--youth, ethnic groups, fuckenfast.com, whatever--to

redefine common words and phrases. Remember a couple decades ago when Black folks used "bad" to mean good? How about

substance abuse? The universe is full of substances. Call them a drunk or a drug addict! Communication is difficult

enough without needless confusion. A spade should be called a spade, and a spinless coward should be called a

spinless coward, not a nice guy!

<nodding in agreement>

Nicely put.

I can barely

stomach the liberties taken with language these days.

[belgareth]

<Emphatically nodding head>



Agreed! I feel the same as you two.

[DumLuc]

For the sake of the discussion,

here is something that DeAngelo has to say on the topic of the "nice" guy. Some of you might find it interesting.



I have a lot of guys write me to say "I know this
girl who's beautiful and smart and attractive. She
and I

are great friends, we have everything in common,
and we get along perfectly... but she says that she's
just not

attracted to me..."

Have you ever noticed that:

1) The most attractive and interesting women seem
to be

attracted to men who don't treat them very well?

2) That the "nicer" you are to a woman the more she
often

seems to act like "just a friend" to you?

What's going on here? Didn't mom say to be "nice"
to girls?



Here's the deal: Women aren't usually romantically
attracted to "nice" guys. Women are attracted to men
who

are funny, confident, and mysterious. Good looks
don't hurt, but if you're not 6'4" tall and model-handsome,


then you have to learn how to attract women with your
personality.

And being "nice" isn't going to do it

for you.

Awhile back, I mentioned an interesting book that
was written about the band "Motley Crue".

Remember
those guys?

Well, the book is called "The Dirt: Confessions
of the Worlds Most Notorious Rock

Band." As I read
through that book, I realized that these guys have
dated more of the world's most attractive

women than
anyone (except maybe Hugh Hefner).

In case you didn't know, the guys in Motley Crue
are not

very "nice". They're famous for taking every
drug known to man, beating their women, fighting, and
having a lot

of people die around them.

Now, the first thing most guys say is "Yea, but
they're rich and famous..."



And this is true, they are rich and famous. But,
and it's a BIG ONE... all of the women that they have
dated,

married, and beaten up are ALSO RICH AND FAMOUS
TOO!

These are supermodels and playmates of the year
and

such. These women can date whoever they want.
Tommy Lee was MARRIED to both Heather Locklear AND
Pamela

Anderson... remember?

These women didn't need Tommy Lee for his money
or his fame... they're dating these

guys for some
OTHER REASON!

Are you with me on this?

So what's going on here? And more importantly,


how can you use this information to be more successful
with women and dating?

First of all, don't go out

and start taking drugs
and beating up your dates. I mean, I know that an
occasional woman will drive a man to

drink, but I don't
recommend going "Motley Crue" on a girl... lol.

The first chapter of my book "Double

Your Dating"
is called "Women Don't Make Sense". Here's what I
mean...

I believe:

1) Women make

decisions very, very quickly about whether
a man is going to be "just a friend" or if he has
romantic potential,

and once her decision is made,
it's probably going to stay made.

2) These decisions are made "unconsciously",

meaning
that women make all of them quickly and at a "gut
level".

3) If you know how, you make her feel

attraction feelings
rather than "friend" feelings.

4) The way to do it is to stop acting "nice" and start


acting, well... something else... and I don't mean
"not nice".

So what DOES attract women? And how do you

do it
exactly?

Good questions...

At the beginning, I mentioned three qualities:
Funny, Confident, and

Mysterious.

Before I talk about each, I first have to remind
you that WOMEN DON'T USUALLY MAKE SENSE.

Remember
that.

Here's a good metaphor: Remember when you learned
to drive? It all made sense... turn the

wheel left
and go left, turn it right and go right...

But do you remember when you learned to back

up?
Backing up is a whole new game. Everything that used
to work now works in a different way. At first you


feel disoriented. Turn the wheel left and go right...
and you have to learn how to maneuver with the back


wheels staying straight while the front wheels turn...
all with your head turned around.

For most

people, this takes some time and practice.
But once you "get it" then you can do it anytime you
want.

Well,

women are very similar. At first it's very
confusing. You have to try things that don't seem
to make sense. But

once you get the hang of it, then
you see how it works and can make it work... just
like backing up a car.



As much as many women would hate to admit it, there's
something very attractive about a man who is just a
little

more confident than he should be. And if you
combine this with the right amount of humor, you have
a magic

combination that will charm almost any woman.

Here are a few ways to use this idea:

1) When you first meet

a woman, tease her about something.
It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you do it early on.
For instance,

you might say: "So what's with the big
purse? Are you carrying a gun in there?" or maybe "Those
are some pretty

tall shoes, what are you like 4' tall
without them?" If you tease a woman, it shows that
you're not

intimidated by her, and that you have a fun
sense of humor. Key: Make sure you say something FUNNY.
If you

don't know how to be funny, get a book on it.
The test: If she's not laughing, then it wasn't funny!

2) Look

around at other things and seem kind of pre-occupied
when you first start talking to her. Make your funny


remarks with a carefree, detached tone. You want to
sound like you're talking to your best friend. Attractive


women are approached all the time. It's not attractive
to a woman when you look like you've just met Madonna.


This "just a little too confident" attitude is very
attractive to women... especially when it's combined
with

humor.

3) Don't answer her questions directly. Women love
to ask questions like: "What do you do?" and "Where


do you live?" and "Tell me about your family". Answer
with funny answers, and don't give her what she wants.


Most guys say "Oh, I'm an engineer" or "I'm a stock
broker". BORING,BORING. If she asks what you do, say


"Oh, funny you should ask. I'm a Calvin Klein Underwear
Model... What do you do?..." (This is especially funny


if it's OBVIOUS that you are NOT a model) Do you get
it? Keep it up and keep her laughing.

It's important

to remember that I'm not telling
you to be mean, or to be a jerk to women. I'm telling
you to start being

confident, funny, and mysterious.

[Pancho1188]

<nodding in

agreement>

Nicely put.

I can barely stomach the liberties taken with language these days.
Don't

be hatin', dawg! You just jealous of the pimp juice I got from my bling bling and all the sweet action I get from

the shawties in the hizzle fishizzle...


That said, it's not a made-up term or anything. It's not a result

of popular culture or the author of the book. The term "nice guys finish last" didn't just come out of nowhere.

If nice guys really meant what Gegogi, Wood Elf, and others say (and I agree that it's true that a nice guy can be

just that, but when talking about the people it's actually used to describe, a nice guy is a guy who tries to

please everyone), then that phrase wouldn't have become common words of wisdom (How old is that, anyway? It's not

like it was just made yesterday...). The fact is that people started it as soon as they call people "nice guys" and

at the same time had these guys wonder why they couldn't get women. After all, everyone calls them "nice guys",

and women say they want nice guys. It's not fair that now you know the problems with these guys to call them

cowards and say it's stupid to call them nice guys. Why? Because most people walking around don't know that

these people are like that, and---guess what---they call them nice guys...I didn't make up the term...the

guy who wrote that book didn't make it up...it's just what everyone calls them. I'm sure the first words that

come out of a person's mouth when asked to describe Bel, G, etc. would not be "He's a nice guy." It would

probably be, "He's a strong-willed, assertive person who's kind to others......." you get my drift. However, if

someone tried to describe any of the people the book describes, and I use myself as an example because it has

happened countless times, it's, "He's a nice guy." For example, when you get into those mushy moments where you

say how great everybody is and go on and on about all the fun times you had, I would be the guy you'd go to and

say, "And Pancho...you're just such a nice guy!" I've never had anyone call me a spineless coward...although

maybe that's what I am.


The author just asked himself, "Why aren't these guys satisfied and why don't

women like these guys when everyone calls them nice guys?" Everyone called him a nice guy, too. He found the

reasons, then he wrote them down. Then he found out they were really passive-aggressive men who have been trained

their whole lives to disown their masculinity, and so he wrote a book about it.


Oh, the hell with it. No one

who takes the words "nice" and "guy" at face value rather than actual usage in social relationships is going to just

go, "Well, Pancho, you're right." Don't take my word for it. Watch the movie The Mask (although I'm sure

many have already seen it). It's a movie about---whodathunkit---a "nice guy" who actually writes an article called

"Nice Guys Finish Last" in the movie. He won't stand up for himself to his boss, he won't do anything to advance

his life in any way, but he's a hell of a nice guy (and I believe people tell him that in the movie). He then

finds the mask and becomes a "jerk". Then, he finds out that he doesn't need the mask to become a real man, and

*poof* he makes the transition from "nice guy" to "jerk" to "real man" all in one movie. Hell, whoever wrote that

script was a genius regarding the male psyche. I'm not sure how many times the term "spineless coward" was used to

describe him, but you probably got that feeling while following him through his daily life.

[TRock]

For the sake of the

discussion, here is something that DeAngelo has to say on the topic of the "nice" guy. Some of you might find it

interesting.

I have a lot of guys write me to say "I know this
girl who's beautiful and smart and attractive.

She
and I are great friends, we have everything in common,
and we get along perfectly... but she says that

she's
just not attracted to me..."

Have you ever noticed that:

1) The most attractive and interesting

women seem
to be attracted to men who don't treat them very well?

2) That the "nicer" you are to a woman the

more she
often seems to act like "just a friend" to you?

What's going on here? Didn't mom say to be "nice"


to girls?

Here's the deal: Women aren't usually romantically
attracted to "nice" guys. Women are attracted

to men
who are funny, confident, and mysterious. Good looks
don't hurt, but if you're not 6'4" tall and

model-handsome,
then you have to learn how to attract women with your
personality.

And being "nice" isn't

going to do it for you.

Awhile back, I mentioned an interesting book that
was written about the band "Motley

Crue". Remember
those guys?

Well, the book is called "The Dirt: Confessions
of the Worlds Most Notorious

Rock Band." As I read
through that book, I realized that these guys have
dated more of the world's most

attractive women than
anyone (except maybe Hugh Hefner).

In case you didn't know, the guys in Motley Crue


are not very "nice". They're famous for taking every
drug known to man, beating their women, fighting, and


having a lot of people die around them.

Now, the first thing most guys say is "Yea, but
they're rich and

famous..."

And this is true, they are rich and famous. But,
and it's a BIG ONE... all of the women that they

have
dated, married, and beaten up are ALSO RICH AND FAMOUS
TOO!

These are supermodels and playmates of the

year
and such. These women can date whoever they want.
Tommy Lee was MARRIED to both Heather Locklear AND


Pamela Anderson... remember?

These women didn't need Tommy Lee for his money
or his fame... they're dating

these guys for some
OTHER REASON!

Are you with me on this?

So what's going on here? And more importantly,


how can you use this information to be more successful
with women and dating?

First of all, don't go out

and start taking drugs
and beating up your dates. I mean, I know that an
occasional woman will drive a man to

drink, but I don't
recommend going "Motley Crue" on a girl... lol.

The first chapter of my book "Double Your

Dating"
is called "Women Don't Make Sense". Here's what I
mean...

I believe:

1) Women make decisions

very, very quickly about whether
a man is going to be "just a friend" or if he has
romantic potential, and once

her decision is made,
it's probably going to stay made.

2) These decisions are made "unconsciously", meaning


that women make all of them quickly and at a "gut
level".

3) If you know how, you make her feel attraction

feelings
rather than "friend" feelings.

4) The way to do it is to stop acting "nice" and start
acting,

well... something else... and I don't mean
"not nice".

So what DOES attract women? And how do you do

it
exactly?

Good questions...

At the beginning, I mentioned three qualities:
Funny, Confident, and

Mysterious.

Before I talk about each, I first have to remind
you that WOMEN DON'T USUALLY MAKE SENSE.

Remember
that.

Here's a good metaphor: Remember when you learned
to drive? It all made sense... turn the

wheel left
and go left, turn it right and go right...

But do you remember when you learned to back up?
Backing

up is a whole new game. Everything that used
to work now works in a different way. At first you
feel

disoriented. Turn the wheel left and go right...
and you have to learn how to maneuver with the back
wheels

staying straight while the front wheels turn...
all with your head turned around.

For most people, this takes

some time and practice.
But once you "get it" then you can do it anytime you
want.

Well, women are very

similar. At first it's very
confusing. You have to try things that don't seem
to make sense. But once you get

the hang of it, then
you see how it works and can make it work... just
like backing up a car.

As much as

many women would hate to admit it, there's
something very attractive about a man who is just a
little more

confident than he should be. And if you
combine this with the right amount of humor, you have
a magic

combination that will charm almost any woman.

Here are a few ways to use this idea:

1) When you first meet a

woman, tease her about something.
It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you do it early on.
For instance, you

might say: "So what's with the big
purse? Are you carrying a gun in there?" or maybe "Those
are some pretty

tall shoes, what are you like 4' tall
without them?" If you tease a woman, it shows that
you're not

intimidated by her, and that you have a fun
sense of humor. Key: Make sure you say something FUNNY.
If you

don't know how to be funny, get a book on it.
The test: If she's not laughing, then it wasn't funny!

2)

Look around at other things and seem kind of pre-occupied
when you first start talking to her. Make your funny


remarks with a carefree, detached tone. You want to
sound like you're talking to your best friend. Attractive


women are approached all the time. It's not attractive
to a woman when you look like you've just met Madonna.


This "just a little too confident" attitude is very
attractive to women... especially when it's combined
with

humor.

3) Don't answer her questions directly. Women love
to ask questions like: "What do you do?" and "Where


do you live?" and "Tell me about your family". Answer
with funny answers, and don't give her what she wants.


Most guys say "Oh, I'm an engineer" or "I'm a stock
broker". BORING,BORING. If she asks what you do, say


"Oh, funny you should ask. I'm a Calvin Klein Underwear
Model... What do you do?..." (This is especially funny


if it's OBVIOUS that you are NOT a model) Do you get
it? Keep it up and keep her laughing.

It's important

to remember that I'm not telling
you to be mean, or to be a jerk to women. I'm telling
you to start being

confident, funny, and mysterious.i come from a family with cousins and sisters that are 8, 9's and same for

their friends. i personally know what they do to nice guys. last year my cousin said yeah to this guy to for the

prom and he paid for everything only for her to tell him she's busy. just for entertainment value. i was standing

in line to get into a bar with some friends a few days ago. and one of my friends, a 9.5, did a "why are you talking

to me" because some cook from the bar came out and tried to talk to her.

the seduction community is geared

towards the 8s, 9s, and 10s. so the information you get is skewed towards the supermodel in vip. you need social

intelligence. the game playing doesn't have to be as hard on a 7 or so.

it's not about being a complete jerk

either though. i do alot of nice guy things. i would say it's a combination of both is the ideal person.

[belgareth]

You still make the mistake in

defining the nice guy as a pushover. They aren't nice guys, they are wimps. But any woman who would pull a stunt

like that clearly is a bitch. That's disgusting.

[Holmes]

But any woman who

would pull a stunt like that clearly is a bitch. That's disgusting.

That was my first thought. Who

needs it?

[Pancho1188]

That was my

first thought. Who needs it?
Yeah, I would plot revenge. There would have to be a way to embarrass that

woman in front of the whole school or something...

...so much for me being a nice guy... :twisted:

...enter

Russell Crowe: "On my signal, unleash hell.":smite:

...or I'd just cry after dropping so much money and then

get over it...

[happyman]

Listen,

just cause she's eager to give you her phone number DOESNT MEAN SHE WANTS YOU! Some women do enjoy the validation

of being 'chased' by alot of guys. She set the trap, you fell into it. You shouldnt even have volunteered your

phone# by saying you'll give her an SMS, keep HER hanging if you'll call her or not. Too validated and she wont be

interested in you.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Calling

someone to have lunch once or sending sombody your number because a person stated they would is hardly falling into

any type of trap.

If that is the case I guess nobody could ever go ahead and make the first move right? So

there should really be nobody ever calling anyone in fear of falling into the "trap".

Now if he called her

again three days in a row that might look a little desperate on his part.

You did the right thing. You were

a man and did what you said you were gonna do. Women do this fucking thing ALL the time and it is really imature. I

would say give it a week and try her cell phone again and don't mention you called her and didn't recieve a

response. Be casual about it.

Happy

[surfs_up]

The downside of being physically attractive, unusually physically attractive, or double trouble, rich and unsually

physically attractive is that the world cuts them slack... look, this sucks, but pretty people get away with

behaviors that average people don't. It isn't fair, that's how it works though. The flip side of this is that the

beautiful people don't get tested every day they way the ugli people do. Non-beautifuls have to work harder, put on

some serious coping skills muscle, learn to deal with rejection, know what it means to empathize. Beautifuls have to

cope with another load of shit... I know from this one having been in a relationship with an extremely beautiful...

traffic stopping beautiful woman, gen-u-wine supermodel grade girl... guys lose their self control, they get

celebrity nutty, it's like temporary madness, this fantasy object of their dreams right before their eyes, all

their resentments and hungers and strange stuff that went on during their potty training phase, and all the babes

that rejected them and all the playboy centerfolds, every wet dream and lonely boner swirling around in their

skulls, other women get vengefully spiteful, step on their toes, deliberately crash into them, do anything to take

them down a notch, writhing in their non-supermodel less-fuckable maybe green card but not platinum card seething

envy...
Beauty is a weird place, it sets you above and everybody seems to be gunning for you at the same time.

Think of what the women are enduring, every "funny and cocky" shithead lout slobbering over her with lines she's

heard maybe 2000 times before, creepy older guys affecting sublime sugar daddy attitudes...
It's perverse,

isn't it... you have the opportunity to see the human race at its most needful, egotistic, hormone revved, not to

speak of radically selfish, your perfect flesh will make me whole, Omigod baby your glorious tits your perfect skin

the soft blond down hair on your exquisite taut but rounded belly will flush away my imperfection yes goddess take

me in your hand like a lump of coal and crush me into a diamond be the ty-d-bol blue cleansing liquid in the foul

toilet of my existence... yes, baby, that's it, come sit on poppa's face we'll drive the amalfi coast in my

ferrrari we will and kanoodle with eurotrash on the greek islands and wear minks and have our faces done by the same

guy who did Liz Taylor and snort pharmaceutical grade cocaine and attend opening night.....
And all this time

you really wanted a tuna sandwich.

[MOBLEYC57]

we'll drive the

amalfi coast
Amalfi coast ... One of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life!! :cheers: A

voman vould be pleased to sit your face and view such a sight!! :lovestruc

[Holmes]

The downside of

being physically attractive, unusually physically attractive, or double trouble, rich and unsually physically

attractive is that the world cuts them slack... look, this sucks, but pretty people get away with behaviors that

average people don't. It isn't fair, that's how it works though. The flip side of this is that the beautiful

people don't get tested every day they way the ugli people do. Non-beautifuls have to work harder, put on some

serious coping skills muscle, learn to deal with rejection, know what it means to empathize. Beautifuls have to cope

with another load of shit... I know from this one having been in a relationship with an extremely beautiful...

traffic stopping beautiful woman, gen-u-wine supermodel grade girl... guys lose their self control, they get

celebrity nutty, it's like temporary madness, this fantasy object of their dreams right before their eyes, all

their resentments and hungers and strange stuff that went on during their potty training phase, and all the babes

that rejected them and all the playboy centerfolds, every wet dream and lonely boner swirling around in their

skulls, other women get vengefully spiteful, step on their toes, deliberately crash into them, do anything to take

them down a notch, writhing in their non-supermodel less-fuckable maybe green card but not platinum card seething

envy...
Beauty is a weird place, it sets you above and everybody seems to be gunning for you at the same time.

Think of what the women are enduring, every "funny and cocky" shithead lout slobbering over her with lines she's

heard maybe 2000 times before, creepy older guys affecting sublime sugar daddy attitudes...
It's perverse,

isn't it... you have the opportunity to see the human race at its most needful, egotistic, hormone revved, not to

speak of radically selfish, your perfect flesh will make me whole, Omigod baby your glorious tits your perfect skin

the soft blond down hair on your exquisite taut but rounded belly will flush away my imperfection yes goddess take

me in your hand like a lump of coal and crush me into a diamond be the ty-d-bol blue cleansing liquid in the foul

toilet of my existence... yes, baby, that's it, come sit on poppa's face we'll drive the amalfi coast in my

ferrrari we will and kanoodle with eurotrash on the greek islands and wear minks and have our faces done by the same

guy who did Liz Taylor and snort pharmaceutical grade cocaine and attend opening night.....
And all this time

you really wanted a tuna sandwich.

Uh...I'll have what he's having.

[Gegogi]

"the seduction community

is geared towards the 8s, 9s, and 10s. so the information you get is skewed towards the supermodel in vip. you need

social intelligence. the game playing doesn't have to be as hard on a 7 or so."

I've dated many

8-10 women. Heck, I was even married to one. They're just like everyone else when it comes to cruelty or game

playing. "Some they do and some they don't." My last GF was a major bitch, a working model and actress and married

to a guy twice her age (not me!). Her head was too huge it got stuck in the door. She understood the power she

possessed and used it to her advantage. However, in my experience, most attractive women aren't like that. Some are

genuinely nice girls: loving, kind and considerate. One of them told me guys often avoid her because she was too

attractive. I've dated several attractive women who were resentful of special male attention due to their

attractiveness. They constantly tried to prove they were as smart, fast, aggressive or talented as any man. Sheesh,

if I beat one of them at tennis she'd be pissed for days.

The thought of a "seduction community" is

hilarious. I picture a red light district on Love Island...

[Holmes]

The thought of a

"seduction community" is hilarious. I picture a red light district on Love Island...

Closer to the

truth is Fire Island.

[DrSmellThis]

Uh...I'll have

what he's having.Make that a double for me. :D

[NaughtieGirl]

Unmitigated

hogwash!

You still make the mistake of confusing a nice guy with a placating wimp. You can be nice, still be

an alpha and still have good results with attractive women.
I left a "nice guy" because he was also a

"wuss". I like a strong alpha male. But... with that power that I am willing to give to him comes the responsibility

of kindness and respect towards me. If I ever feel there is no respect towards me (and everything that that entails)

I WILL walk.

[Pancho1188]

Closer to the

truth is Fire Island.
I think you mean Temptation Island.

[wood elf]

Naughty Girl:

We look for

the same in a man. Someone who can be strong and protect me and who is gentle at the same time. He needs a will and

life of his own and never changes his mind just because he thinks I want him too. There are many more things, that

is just a part of it.

You are strong willed too?

[Pancho1188]

Naughty

Girl:

We look for the same in a man. Someone who can be strong and protect me and who is gentle at the same

time. He needs a will and life of his own and never changes his mind just because he thinks I want him too. There

are many more things, that is just a part of it.

You are strong willed too?
Yeah, you and every other

woman on earth. While we're at it, I'd like to say that I'm looking for an attractive, confident woman with a

good sense of humor and who's very comfortable with her sexuality...

I'm also a guy who loves going out but

has no problem staying in and watching a good movie.

My horoscope says that a big opportunity lies ahead, and I

have a choice to make on which way to go.
:lol:

[wood elf]

Yeah, you and

every other woman on earth. While we're at it, I'd like to say that I'm looking for an attractive, confident

woman with a good sense of humor and who's very comfortable with her sexuality...

I'm also a guy who loves

going out but has no problem staying in and watching a good movie.

My horoscope says that a big opportunity lies

ahead, and I have a choice to make on which way to go.
:lol:
Yes, but I have found him :) My man is

gentle and loving. I have watched him many times at the dojo, he can protect me! He is mostly like Naughty wrote

about a wolf.

[Pancho1188]

Yes, but I

have found him :) My man is gentle and loving. I have watched him many times at the dojo, he can protect me! He is

mostly like Naughty wrote about a wolf.
I'm not arguing...I was just teasing. :wave: I'm happy for

you---well, I'm glad that you're happy, but, frankly, it doesn't do anything for me. :hammer:

[surfs_up]

Do you love this insistent language you see in the personal ads on the

websites.... "I DEMAND TO BE TREATED LIKE ROYALTY"... saw that on one of them, wondered to myself, how do you lay

down the law in no uncertain terms like that ?

I was always under the impression, excuse my lowly peasant

error if'n I had it all wrong, that respect was unlike, say, a blue poker chip you toss in the pot, but rather a

general appreciation for qualities in another person, something that makes that person exceptional, perhaps their

courage, or diligence, or level of their humanity, or generosity, or dogged determination in the face of adversity,

or capacity to grow when most of their contemporaries have closed up shop and gone home in the mental development

department, unusual social skills..... ya know what I mean, we used to call these "virtues"... may sound kinda dated

in these commodified times...

Or maybe we're gettin' respect semantically confused with good manners and

common courtesy and the capacity to make someone else our emotional focal point for longer than we might interact

with a pet chihuahua.

Common courtesy is a basic ingredient, like flour in a recipe for making cookies.... no

flour, no cookies, no matter what else you have going on. BUT, if some person demands that I put them up on a

pedestal and treat them as if they are above and beyond the common run of humanity without any exceptional efforts

on their part it's pretty clear that they are afflicted with 1., histrionic personality disorder, will forever be

an emotional energy draining cosmic void of neediness 2., were raised by immature, narcissistic parents who

projected
ludicrous distortions onto their perfectly nice kid who internalized them and now needs five years of

intense therapy, 3. is borderline mentally retarded, or 4., is the offspring of some folks who are so freaking rich

and powerful that I'm always going to come up looking second rate next to Uber-Dad and unless I morph into Donald

Trump with better hair, game over.

[NaughtieGirl]

Naughty

Girl:

We look for the same in a man. Someone who can be strong and protect me and who is gentle at the same

time. He needs a will and life of his own and never changes his mind just because he thinks I want him too. There

are many more things, that is just a part of it.

You are strong willed too?
I haven't really had

the time to read this entire thread. But I wanted to answer your question.

Oh - you have me laughing here! Yes,

I am strong willed! I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. What helps me alot is to ask myself "Hey -

In the grand scheme of things - How important is this?" (Regarding whatever it is I might feel upset about at the

time). It puts things back into perspective and allows me to say "Sure Darling" without feeling resentful about it.

In the end, isn't a harmonious couple relationship so much more important than what channel we are going to watch

or what opinion we have about Jane Fonda?

One of the things I love about my man is his integrity to the values

he has established for himself. They mostly mesh with my values, so I admire him for it.

[Gegogi]

"...I'd like to say that

I'm looking for an attractive, confident woman with a good sense of humor and who's very comfortable with her

sexuality...

I'd add intelligent, well educated, artistic and extremely naughty to that list! In

reality, I feel fortunate if I score on 1 out of 5 points. It may be faster to get a young GF and "train" her while

she's still impressionable, e.g., send her to college and studio instruction, workout with her, travel the globe,

watch porn together, etc.

[wood elf]

I haven't

really had the time to read this entire thread. But I wanted to answer your question.

Oh - you have me laughing

here! Yes, I am strong willed! I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. What helps me alot is to ask

myself "Hey - In the grand scheme of things - How important is this?" (Regarding whatever it is I might feel upset

about at the time). It puts things back into perspective and allows me to say "Sure Darling" without feeling

resentful about it. In the end, isn't a harmonious couple relationship so much more important than what channel we

are going to watch or what opinion we have about Jane Fonda?

One of the things I love about my man is his

integrity to the values he has established for himself. They mostly mesh with my values, so I admire him for

it.
You can say I am strong willed too. I have been independent my whole life. My father jokes that the

first thing I said was "Me do it!" Belgareth is funny as he will not argue with me. No matter how angry or upset I

get he calmly listens then does whatever he thinks is right. After some time I learned that it is a waste of energy

getting mad as it does not have any effect on him. Calm, well reasoned words can sway him. I have learned to use

those instead.

I do not always agree with his values as I was raised Catholic and he has no religion. He does

live within his values and standards and does not vary or make excuses for them. I respect that. He honors and

respects my values though he sometimes points out the contradictions inherent in my religion.

Yes, I believe a

harmonious relationship is the best and both must work towards that goal.

[NaughtieGirl]

I'd add

intelligent, well educated, artistic and extremely naughty to that list! In reality, I feel fortunate if I score on

1 out of 5 points. It may be faster to get a young GF and "train" her while she's still impressionable, e.g., send

her to college and studio instruction, workout with her, travel the globe, watch porn together, etc.
If I

were 18 and single I'd certainly come and check you out Gegogi! Sounds like fun! <img>

[MOBLEYC57]

If I were 18

and single I'd certainly come and check you out Gegogi! Sounds like fun! <img>
Me too!! :blink:

[noodlesnspam]

my gf is exactly like how

gegogi described, and shes only 18... boy am i a happy camper

[tim929]

:wave:There is a reason that

younger women and older men work out.Statisticly speaking,marriages in which the man is older by seven or more years

than his mate...up to about fifteen years difference,are more sucsessful that marriages where the age difference is

smaller or larger.Women can respect and admire man who is alittle older and better established and more stable but

not so much older that they have no common ground.Men,on the other hand tend to appreciate and care more for a woman

who is younger and more "vulnerable." They may in fact not realy be "vulnerable," but men are more protective of and

attentive to a woman that they perceive to be in need of "protection." Between those two things,you end up with two

people who actualy like being together and whos actions are appreciated by the other partner.The women I have dated

who are my own age(late 30's)have very little respect for men in general and even less for the man thay are with if

he is the same age.Younger women on the other hand tend to treat me with respect and even alittle admiration.Anybody

care to add to or refute this? I love a good debate.:POKE:

[Fatal]

Even at my age of 17, girls even a

grade or so lower treat me with so much more respect it's not even funny. People in general do. I guess it's the

schoolage excitment of being around an older guy/girl that makes you feel important that they let you be around

them. Albiet, some highstatus HB don't, that's another story.

[belgareth]

My girlfriend is 20 years

younger than me. She claims to have been disgusted with the shallow BS of guys her own age. One of the

charcteristics she most admires is the lack of games and pretensions.

In my case, what dirty old man wouldn't

want to date a cute young woman with a good education and the prospect of making lots of money? The truth is she's

smart and intelligent, well educated and completely lacks the bitterness and cynicism so many single women in their

late 30s and up seem to have. You couldn't call her vulnerable because she's more like a lit stick of dynamite

with a twisted sense of humor. I am not tolerant of the weak female role, I want an equal relationship. She would

not tolerate taking a subordinate role either.

The biggest single thing is our mutual respect and admiration for

the other. I don't know how that compares with other couples or fits your theory but there it is.

[surfs_up]

from my perch here on the margins of CorporateLand I see a frightful multitude of men and women both,

who have been set up for lives of low grade misery on account of buying into seductively marketed package of "the

good life" or "conformity+ambition=domination" or some such cleverly packaged lifestyle crapola. Playing the game,

working within the system, yeah, it can do wonders for you if you know how to use it without it using you too badly.

Where the hardworking true believers, and heck, some of the mediocre slobs who wanted a ride on the gravy train,

screwed up and got embittered, frustrated was that they didn't appreciate that thinking for oneself and learning

how to live life according to one's own inner compass is hard work in itself, it takes outrageous mental stamina to

find one's own path that avoids the pitfalls of grey conformity or idiotic, ineffectual acts of rebellion...what

often happens is that men and women find themselves trapped in life tunnel, that's not exactly right, they've

actually been in that tunnel since they were four or five years old, what happens is they start becoming aware of

the tunnel, as they enter their thirties and flush through the tubes into their fourties and fifties, their thinking

gradually grows to be more and more about the tunnel, and naturally they blame who is nearest for the tunnel, SHE

made this damn tunnel, NO! HE made this damn tunnel... but there you are, in a network of family relations, business

contacts, local politics, your education, your degree of clout, the potential impact of divorce on all of that,

scandals, credit ratings, maybe this has been wisely set up to permit fascinating change and growth later in life,

or maybe it was set up like horse blinders to prevent you from any peripheral vision....

[tim929]

:goodpost:Anyone reading the post

above should realy think hard about what was just said.It is so true it's alittle scary.Our society,here in the

states and all over the world has been carefuly designed to creat conformity and uniformity within the heard.The

concept is simple enough..."If we convince you that the way to happyness is to conform to the wisdom we have

prescribed,get your education and pull your cart for the company like a good little mule,you will be rewarded with

the things you see in all of the advertisements we bombard you with on the T.V." There has always been a huge class

of people thruout history that has simply bowed thier heads,bent thier back to the work and not asked too many

questions.Go along with what the rest of the heard is doing and dont think too much.Many people suspect that the

whole idea behind "mid-life crissis" is that at some point,our over encumbered minds begin to long for the freedom

that we have been told about all our lives and still havent found...even though we played the game and lived by the

model they created.The model that was created to do nothing more than enslve the masses and keep the heard calm

enough so that they could make a profit and live the good life they sold to the rest of the world.



Belgareth...your experiance is almost exactly what I am talking about.Young women can RESPECT an older man and

even admire him for his stability,earned wisdom and thier ability to be vulnerable with him even if they arent

vulnerable.TRUST.Men have a funny habbit of appreciating a woman that respects and admires them and holds them in

high esteem.As a result...tend to respond to them with respect and admiration in return.One of the things we all

seek in our lives is to be with someone that we regard highly...who regards us highly.It does a person no good to be

in a relationship where the person we hold in high esteem regards us as...inadaquate.Something I have seen all too

often are girls dating guys that for whatever reason they found attractive...who treat them like an unwanted

growth.For a time,this will encourage a woman to simply try harder to get him to love her.But sooner or later she

grows weary of the game and moves on.I have met many men in the same boat.Married to a woman who treats them like he

is an incompetent shrub and he takes it...assuming that at some point,if he tries hard enough...she will respect

him.Sooner or later,that little game ends too.How can you love a person that holds you in contempt?Worse...if you

are willing to be held with contempt,what does that say about your own feeling of self worth?How can we love and

respect others if we have no love or respect for ourselves?This whole silly mess gets very very complicated in a big

hurry.

Okay...the soap box is free...I need to take my meds...anybody else?:LOL:

[DrSmellThis]

Sure. I'll have what they're

having.