Happiness

[Holmes]

Lately, I've been thinking a

lot about the nature of happiness. I've come to the conclusion that happiness is a myth.

A few years ago, I

was the most profoundly depressed person you could ever meet. I can't really describe it, but it was a very

oppressive kind of heaviness that almost made it hard to breathe. I felt like someone was sitting on me all the

time.

In the course of really examining myself and deciding to change my life, I realized that I identified

myself by that sadness. That is to say, I would describe myself as "a sad person." I had been sad so long, that I

came to believe that it was who I was. And since it was such a huge part of my identity, I was reluctant to part wth

it.

Fortunately, I soon came to the understanding that emotions are transitory. They come and go, much like

Ted Danson's hair or Lindsay Lohan's breasts.

What you feel isn't what you are. Let's say you want to

track Ashlee Simpson down and beat her senseless with a bag of oranges. Does that mean you're an angry person? No,

it means you're sensible.

Where was I?

Ah yes, happiness.

Now that my depression has largely

abated, or at least, stays away for longer periods [days?], I've made the surprising discovery that happiness is a

transitory emotion as well. Just because you feel happy from time to time, doesn't make you a happy

person.

So if you accept the idea that our emotions don't define us, you have to accept the idea that there

are no happy people. Anywhere. Even at Wal Mart.

This revelation is, by turns, depressing and liberating. On

the one hand, it means you're never going to be a happy person, because there are no happy people. There are

just people who feel happy, some more often than others. Which is kind of sad.

On the other hand, it releases

you from that expectation of happiness, which always leaves you feeling inadequate somehow.

I think the best

example of this is what happens to us during the holidays. We see manufactured images of truly happy people enjoyng

their families and feeling "the spirit," and it makes us feel like hell. We're not having that feeling, are we? We

don't want to knit mittens for the orphans or make snow angels in front of the rectory. We want to upend the table

and shove a turkey leg down our sister-in-law's throat. And if we don''t want to do that, well, we'd at least

like to just go the fuck home and jerk off. You know what I mean.

We think we are supposed to be happy, even

though no one truly is. Other people seem happy, why aren't I? What's wrong with me? Look at that girl in

the commercial. The one whose husband flies her whole family to Italy as a surprise, then gives her a 3 karat

diamond and tells her she still makes his dick hard after three kids and a second mortgage. She's

happy.

Yes, the girl in the commercial is happy. For 30 seconds.

Of course, the actress who plays the

happy girl is probably living in a shithole in Van Nuys, making herself vomit after every meal and wishing she

booked that Correctol commercial so she could keep her health benefits.

If you accept the idea that nothing

will ever make you a happy person, because the idea of "happy people" is a myth created by advertisers and other

groups trying to sell you shit, you can stop thinking there's an answer. You can put away your growing lists of

disappointments. You can stop measuring yourself against what appear to be all those happy people out there.

They're not out there. They don't exist.

Now this is not to say that happiness itself doesn't

exist. It does, like any other emotion. But like all other emotions, it is fleeting. It marks a moment in time, not

the quality of your life or your character.

Chances are, if I asked you when you were your happiest, you

would relate to a single moment or an incident. Because that's what happiness really is. A hamburger. An orgasm. A

winning hand.

You might relate to a period, like, "I was really happy when I was in college," but that would

be an idealization, a romanticism that would not be accurate. Because no matter how much you loved those days, there

were many nights you ate Ramen off a crappy hot plate, thinking, "Jesus, this fucking sucks ass."

I have to

go. Dr. Phil is here with my enema.

[culturalblonde]

I cannot image not being

happy. My sad times are brief, and no, I am not weathy. Even in situations that should be sad, I manage to think

of something to make myself happy. I always try to make the best of a bad situation.

I guess I can say all

this now, as opposed to three years ago, because I got a crazy man out of my life. Now, I expose myself to

positive, outgoing, and funny people.

One of the things that makes me very happy are your comments, Holmes.

:)

[MOBLEYC57]

Depression, crazy man ... why is

this in the humor section? I've read nothing funny. :think:

Anyone!? Anyone!? :blink:

[culturalblonde]

MobleyC57, you forgot some

words to your country western lyric: :type:
My dog ran away, my truck broke down, my gun is only shooting

blanks...and then I gave her my heart...
and end it with a yee haw!

Yeah, why are we in the humor

section??

And MobleyC57, why aren't you shooting pool? :think:

[Pancho1188]

Nice post, Holmes!

Why is this in the humor section? This puts my memoirs postings to shame!


I have three value-added

observations:

1. Whether you choose to be happy or choose to be sad at any given time, the situation remains the

same.

2. Using the logic that there are no happy people, just happy moments, a "happy person" would be defined

as a person who experiences more happy moments than sad. I've actually taken a psychological test that gauged your

happiness by---you guessed it---the percentage of time you were happy!

3. As mentioned in observation 1,

happiness is a choice. You can either choose to be happy or choose to become happy if you so desire. I've been

surprisingly upbeat for a while because things were going well. Then, in a 24-hour period, my whole situation went

from good to disasterous. I could have rolled over and died, but I chose to let it go. I may not be happy at this

exact moment, but I choose to become happy by doing the things that put me in that state. Almost as an act of

self-efficacy, the very knowledge that I will do this makes me happy. Therefore, I choose to become happy and be

happy at the same time, and therefore I am happy.

Life is a state of mind...

[MOBLEYC57]

MobleyC57,

you forgot some words to your country western lyric: :type:
My dog ran away, my truck broke down, my gun is only

shooting blanks...and then I gave her my heart...
and end it with a yee haw!:think:Ha! Ha! That AIN'T no

song, Blondeecakes!! AIN'T got no dog and no gun! :rasp:


And MobleyC57, why aren't you

shooting pool? :think:Cause there AIN'T no blondes around to spank!:whip: And her dog ran away, and her gun

is rusty, and her armpits are musty.

:lol: YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaw! :lol:

[belgareth]

Holmes,

You're wrong!

There are happy people, more than you might believe.

There's a philosophy I've studied and tried to practice

for some years and once you get it, you gain inmeasurable freedom and joy from it. Simply put, you're gonna die and

you don't know when! It sounds terrible at first but consider it. If you die right now, what does any of the petty

crap matter? It doesn't! So, why does all that crap matter when you don't know when you are going to die? Why not

make the choice to be happy and live well in case you do die tomorrow? It is your choice and your choice alone.



When I leave this world it is going to be under certain conditions.
1. I know I did my best for the people around

me.
2. I know I tried my hardest to be the best version of me I could be.
3. I was happy and enjoyed as much as

possible of this all too brief life granted me.
4. I lived an honest and honorable life.
5. When old man Death

reached out to tap me on the shoulder, I kicked, screamed, clawed and fought every inch of the way. (I do intend to

be as late as possible to my own funeral. :) )

Nobody is perfect and I've stumbled many times but those are the

goals in my life. What is there to be sad about? I have been granted a life in a world filled with wonder and

challenge. I've been given love and have given others love and fought hard battles, some won and some lost. I've

gained knowledge, seen wonders and had many good friends.

You make the choice to be who and what you are. If you

decide to accept the crud on the TV as reality, that's your choice too. Their whole point is to make you feel

unhappy so you'll go out and buy their version of happiness. I'm not in this world to appease advetrisers and

don't much care about what they sell.

I used to feel the way you do about holidays. Why? Because I couldn't

give my kids all the latest and greatest toys, I couldn't give my wife that diamond bracelet they advertised and so

on. I finally learned that I can give them the best of me. A smiling, understanding and loving person who toook

pleasure in just being with them and making them laugh. I could give them all the best skills and life experiences I

had accumulated. Some criticise me, but my home and life are filled with joy and laughter, what more could I want or

anybody expect?

To be sad or happy or angry or glad is up to you. This life is too short and the end is too

indeterminate to waste it on anything but the best of all things. That doesn't mean material things, they can't

give you happiness. It can only come from inside of you. In the end, when all the accounting is done, what do you

choose the tally to say? Only you have the power to choose!

[Pancho1188]

Bel, Mobes, Blondie, and

myself...

This is in the humor section...we should've taken it to be a joke. Sorry, Holmes! :)

[MOBLEYC57]

You make the

choice to be who and what you are. If you decide to accept the crud on the TV as reality, that's your choice too.



To be sad or happy or angry or glad is up to you. This life is too short and the end is too

indeterminate to waste it on anything but the best of all things. That doesn't mean material things, they can't

give you happiness. It can only come from inside of you. Bel, you're like

a nice wine ... you get better and better with time! :thumbsup:

Pancho, you're right, but even I, in my most

craziest moment couldn't pull that off ... humorous it tis not. :blink:

[Pancho1188]

Bel, you're

like a nice wine ... you get better and better with time! :thumbsup:

Pancho, you're right, but even I, in my

most craziest moment couldn't pull that off ... humorous it tis not. :blink:
Dark humor...it's like

Eddie Murphy in "Vampire in Brooklyn":

"If every day was a sunny day, then what's a sunny day? So, you see,

evil...is good!"

:thumbsup:

Funny, true, but not the way a person who wanted to remain optimistic regarding

life would look at it. I think that's the point: it's hard to believe that happiness even exists in its pure form

when you're down. "When you smile, the world smiles with you," "When it rains, it pours," kind of thing. Very

insightful and creative in the way it is written. Hey, it got you to present yourself (and others) with your plan

on being happy, so not only is it humorous but informative to your own personal well-being as well.

Of course, I

only see these things because I write in a similar fashion: I use my own weak moments to discover---and teach

others---either the answer to my problem or at least the dilemma that the human psyche must face in such a

situation. That's why I love this piece of writing.

[Icarus]

happyness

can be seperated from 'joy'.

I couldn't add anything more to this thread without taking about 8000 words and a

journey through horrers that have turned to joy.

I, myself, am happy. (as I define it) but when I was 15 I

suffered from BiPolar disorder. Those were some crazy days. Walking some of the darkest doors I have known taught

me a few things.

Truly, euphoria, or intense joy is fleeting: but there is such a thing as a geniune, constant

happyness - that is pricked by occasional introspection and sadness. This truly must be better than sadness

occasionally marred by happy moments.

Wish I could say more that actually MEANT anything. But you'll just have

to take my word for it.

Holmes: you have my email address. Get MSN and I'll chat with ya.

Peace and Love

and Hot Buttered Crumpets

Steve

[DumLuc]

I don't know if this is an

acceptable comment; but what the heck.

Happiness is your first 'shroom experience;at least those who have had

one always say, "It's like the 'cosmic joke' is finally revealed." So if everyones first experience is a happy

one, then there must truly be a universal happiness.

[Pancho1188]

I don't know if

this is an acceptable comment; but what the heck.

Happiness is your first 'shroom experience;at least those who

have had one always say, "It's like the 'cosmic joke' is finally revealed." So if everyones first experience is a

happy one, then there must truly be a universal happiness.
:lol:

So you're saying happiness is

smoking a blunt? I must be missing out, then...

Good luck with all that... :cheers:

Funny

posting!

[DumLuc]

No, I'm not saying smoking a

blunt. I'm saying everyone that I have ever talked to about their magic mushroom experience has said that the

first time was a happy experience. Everything was funny and when asked to explain it, they couldn't.

[Pancho1188]

Sorry for the

misinterpretation.

That said, Holmes, take two of those and call Dr. DumLuc in the morning!

[DumLuc]

I'm not "prescribing" anything

to anybody;I am suggesting there may be a universal happiness.

[Pancho1188]

I know, I was just

joking...after all, it's the humor section! :)

[DumLuc]

I can see you have a sense of

humor, Pancho. But the question was one of happiness. Is there a universal happiness, one that even Holmes can

achieve? Is it within us all? Hidden from some and obvious to others? Certainly, humor makes us laugh and that may

lead us to happiness, but we all don't laugh at the same jokes. Is there a universal quotient for happiness, one

that once we have experienced, and know exists within, we can find again? What think you all?

[DrSmellThis]

Great post, holmes! It's

humor because of the way it deals with the darkness. You are not just "wrong".

The thing about depression is

that it is to a large extent physiological. You just feel physically crappy, like if you dropped a rock on your

toes. Therefore, screw the notion that you should be able to just choose to be "happy" at any given time

(assuming typical connotations of happiness)!

That said, there is still an enormous range of freedom to

experience things, and it is possible to deal with the depressed moment in a warrior like fashion and come out on

the other side, in some way. It is also possible to take care of your physiological needs the best you can; and give

your body some relief.

In the history of philosophy, Aristotle was undoubtedly one of the first and best to

write about happiness. According to Aristotle, happiness, or eudaimona, is a combination of living well and

faring well -- it requires a helping of good fortune, as well as living in an ethical, holistic manner,

according to the virtues (To me it's largely integrity within a process of interacting with one's social and

physical environment.).

So it would be illogical to expect to be happy, if Aristotle is correct. What is

reasonable to expect is the sense of meaning and satisfaction that comes from living well. Maybe we could

call it "fulfillment", just for lack of a better word.

I'm not sure we would always choose to be happy,

anyway. I know I've sometimes chosen the hard path. Joy is even narrower than happiness, and it would be nuts to

expect joy to abide with us, according to an Aristotelian view.

Some people are just born with a temperment

that lends itself to a positive mood (Maybe culturalblonde is one of them; maybe Belgareth is another). They enjoy

an abiding neurological pleasantness, or cheerfulness. But it can be annoying to the rest of us to hear that we

should all feel that way. It's not the way human bodies work.

Those who are born with a less pleasant

neurological state (or who are otherwise "unfortunate", in the Aristotelian sense) are valuable to the world; and

can find their own brand of fulfuillment from living well; with personal integrity as they define it; within the

constraints or their physical, cultural, and social worlds.

Everyone has their own "brand" of achievable

"bliss", (to allude to Joseph Campbell's dictum to "follow your bliss"), even if it's not particularly joyful or

cheerful in an overt, abiding sense.

I don't think that the absence of suffering is a realistic goal for

anyone. Those without an abiding cheerful temperament are just challenged earlier, and moreso than the rest of us,

to find something more fundamental and deeper.

Suffering can be a gift in this sense. Abe Lincoln lived a great

life, if not a particularly happy one. A "fulfilled life" will have its moments of cheer.

But they are not

necessarily the point.

[DumLuc]

Here is a clinical psychologists

perspective:

What is

Happiness?

A puzzling

situation:
Billy won the

lottery. A cool $25 million! He appeared to be a good man with a good character. Of the many types of people who

might have won, his friends were happy it was Billy. But two years later he was arrested for drunk driving,

resisting arrest, soliciting a prostitute, and having drugs in his car. The arrests continued over the next few

years. The excitement of winning did not grow into a lifelong happiness.
Tom, a successful businessman, was a

loner who worked long hours, saving and re-investing most of his profits. He was disliked for his independence and

envied for his wealth. Yet his was a life full of contentment and happiness. Why does

wealth (http://www.drkenner.com/money_and_wealth.htm) bring happiness to some and misery to others?
If wealth is not a shortcut to happiness,

what about

sacrificing (http://www.drkenner.com/duty_vs_judgement.htm) for others? Terry volunteers at the soup kitchen 6 days /week, 52 weeks a year, but hates

it, hates her life, and has grown especially bitter towards the people she serves. Dora, an engineer, never does

volunteer work. If she gives to charity, she does so very selectively and sparingly. Acquaintances

envious (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#envy) of her success call her

selfish (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#selfishness1). Yet Dora is very happy.
There are many people who we think should be happy but

are not. (Billy the ``lucky" lottery winner and Terry the ``serious" volunteer.)
There are many people who we

think should be miserable but are not. (Tom the ``loner" businessman and Dora the ``selfish" engineer.)
Some

people who seem to have nothing are very happy. Some people who seem to have everything are not. Yet some

jet-setters seem happy while some moral crusaders have become miserable old grouches. Happiness seems very

unpredictable, inconsistent, irrational.
What follows is an explanation as to the rational basis of

happiness.


Happiness


Happiness is an

emotion (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#emotion). So is

sadness (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#sadness), love, hate, curiosity, revulsion, excitement, jealousy, contentment,

depression (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#depression),

anxiety (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#anxiety),

fear (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#fear),

guilt (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#guilt) and

anger (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#anger). All emotions have causes, causes which can be understood and controlled.
The emotion of

happiness (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#happiness) is not caused simply by entertaining your

whims (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#whim). (Whims are an

obstacle (http://www.drkenner.com/obstacles.htm) to happiness.) Happiness is not merely a life lived by accumulating moments of pleasure. On the

contrary, happiness is a long lasting enduring enjoyment of life, it is being in love with living. It is your reward

for achieving a

good

character (http://www.drkenner.com/virtue_and_happiness.htm) and

personal rational

values (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#values) in life. Some important values are a productive

[

size=-1]career[/size] (http://www.drkenner.com/career.htm)

,



romance (http://www.drkenner.com/romance.htm),

friendship (http://www.drkenner.com/friendship.htm) and



hobbies (http://www.drkenner.com/hobbies.htm).
Achieving these values requires

rationality (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#rationality) and takes effort and skill. Two types of skills you can use are thinking skills and

valuing skills.
Once you learn to have confidence in your own mind and once you discover the

virtues (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#virtue) that make it possible for you to

achieve your values and that make your life worth living, then you will experience the result - an earned

pride (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#pride) and a genuine

self-esteem (http://www.drkenner.com/definitions.htm#self-esteem). And of course happiness.
For more information on achieving happiness through

rationality, follow the links on this page. If you feel you need professional help, go to

"How (http://www.drkenner.com/how2choose.htm) to Choose a Therapist". You can also ask Dr. Kenner a

question (http://www.drkenner.com/q_topics.htm), listen to her

radio

show (http://www.drkenner.com/radio_show.html), and subscribe

to her

newsletter (http://www.drkenner.com/newsletter.htm).



Recommended reading (http://www.drkenner.com/reading.htm)

[nonscents]

Nice thread.

For

anyone who would like to have more experiences of happiness than they currently do, run -- do not walk -- to get

The Feeling Good Handbook by David D. Burns., MD. Yes, it's a pretty sappy title. But . . . this book has

been rigorously tested in psychological experiments. When the directions given in this book are followed, people

have signficant, measurable reductions in anxiety and depression.

I was reluctant to get the book because of

the title. I found it to be a life-changing book. My levels of anxiety and depression showed signficant, measurable

declines in just a couple of weeks.

I was familiar with the ideas in this book, having been exposed to them in

other books. The beauty of The Feeling Good Handbook is that it gives you an easy-to-follow program. You must

do a little reading and a little writing each day for a month. Do it. Follow his guidelines and the benefits will be

there.

Another good book, but not nearly as effective as Burns's, is Authentic Happiness by Martin

Seligman. This influential psychologist has spawned a new movement of positive psychology. He is trying to change

the focus of psychology from treating and classifying pathology to growing and developing health and happiness.



Let me state that the ideas of Burns and Seligman took me some time to adjust to. Psychology is often used as a

palliative for what I view to be an oppressive sociopolitical system. Maybe if people feel bad and recognize that

the source of their feeling bad is the sociopolitical system, they will try to change that system.

But the

reality is that we can be more effective changing that system if we are emotionally healthy and balanced than if we

are not. So I have learned to embrace Feeling Good.

As far as Aristotle goes, I like the political views of his

Nicomachean Ethics but find the psychological aspects of his eudaimonism to be flawed. In Book i, Chapter 8

(translator Terence Irwin) he writes that
happiness evidently also needs external goods to be added [to the

activity], as we said, since we cannot, or cannot easily, do fine actions if we lack the resources.

For, first

of all, in many actions we use friends, wealth and political power just as we use instruments. Further, deprivation

of certain [externals]--e.g. good birth, good children, beauty--mars our blessedness; for we do not altogether have

the character of happiness if we look utterly repulsive or are ill-born, solitary or childless, and have it even

less, presumably, if our children or friends are totally bad, or were good but have died. [1099a-1099b, bracketed

comments in original]
For Aristotle, you can be virtuous if you are ugly or poor or childless, but you

cannot be happy. This is because, for Aristotle, happiness requires not just the internal psychological state

of the soul called virtue, but also external resources like money, health, and friends.

I think DrST

praised not too long ago Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning. The point of this book and the

point of Burns's book is that one can be happy even if one is a slave. And Burns will show you how to get out of

your depression and make the best of your situation if you are a slave.

As I said, politically, I don't want

people to be reconciled to their enslavement. I want them to rebel. But I believe that a truly effective psychology

is not merely palliative. It teaches people to make the best of their situation. The psychologically balanced slave

will rebel when the chances of success are greatest. And she will be most likely to succeed in her rebellion if she

is a balanced, happy person. Not a person who is happy being a slave. But a person who is happy.

So, you do

not need external goods to be happy. If you want external goods (and I believe that this want is what drives many

movements for social change) you will be more likely to attain them if you are happy. Not happy with your lack of

external goods but happy nonetheless. This happiness, I am asserting, will make you better able to attain the

external goods you lack.

Just for the record, I am not saying that slaves are in fact happy, nor do I support

slavery. I am saying that psychology can teach oppressed people to be happy. Happiness can be consistent with

political unfreedom. People who enjoy the positive psychological value of happiness can be more effective in their

struggle for the positive political value of freedom.

[belgareth]

You can see that there are as

many definitions of happiness as there are people. For me it means looking forward to the new day in a spirit of fun

and anticipation. It means not having the black days and not allowing the day to day setbacks to make me angry or

sad. It means never needing to hold a grudge or remain angry. It means never needing to hurt somebody else out of

anger or disatisfaction with myself. It means being free to love and laugh and appreciate the wonder of living.



Happiness does not come from a bottle but I agree that there are certain people with a medical need for

medication. Many of them are still not happy even when the medication is doing it's job. Happiness does not come

from a book or from counseling, those are just tools to help you learn to harness your own power to take charge of

yourself and learn to be happy. The choice to be happy is still your own choice to make, it still lives inside you

even when you need one form or the other of help to achieve it. How you can best acheive it is as unique to the

individual as the definition of happiness.

[Pancho1188]

Happiness for me is reading

this thread on my brand-new 26" wide screen LCD TV with DVI cable for digital connection! :thumbsup: Holmes should

come and experience the awesomeness with me, and then he will know the meaning of happiness! :box:

(Note: :lol:

)

Sorry, I had to throw this awesome news in somewhere... :run:

[DrSmellThis]

Did you also happen to get a

good deal on your auto insurance through Geico? :)

[DrSmellThis]

But the

reality is that we can be more effective changing that system if we are emotionally healthy and balanced than if we

are not. So I have learned to embrace Feeling Good.

As far as Aristotle goes, I like the political views of his

Nicomachean Ethics but find the psychological aspects of his eudaimonism to be flawed. In Book i, Chapter 8

(translator Terence Irwin) he writes that
For Aristotle, you can be virtuous if you are ugly or poor or childless,

but you cannot be happy. This is because, for Aristotle, happiness requires not just the internal

psychological state of the soul called virtue, but also external resources like money, health, and

friends.

I think DrST praised not too long ago Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning. The

point of this book and the point of Burns's book is that one can be happy even if one is a slave. And Burns will

show you how to get out of your depression and make the best of your situation if you are a slave.

As I said,

politically, I don't want people to be reconciled to their enslavement. I want them to rebel. But I believe that a

truly effective psychology is not merely palliative. It teaches people to make the best of their situation. The

psychologically balanced slave will rebel when the chances of success are greatest. And she will be most likely to

succeed in her rebellion if she is a balanced, happy person. Not a person who is happy being a slave. But a person

who is happy.

So, you do not need external goods to be happy. If you want external goods (and I believe that

this want is what drives many movements for social change) you will be more likely to attain them if you are happy.

Not happy with your lack of external goods but happy nonetheless. This happiness, I am asserting, will make you

better able to attain the external goods you lack.

Just for the record, I am not saying that slaves are in fact

happy, nor do I support slavery. I am saying that psychology can teach oppressed people to be happy. Happiness can

be consistent with political unfreedom. People who enjoy the positive psychological value of happiness can be more

effective in their struggle for the positive political value of freedom.Thanks for the interesting post,

nonscents!

I used to teach the Burns book and have used it with clients as well. It is great, and based on scads

of solid research, coming from Beck's brand of cognitive therapy. However, its effectiveness is not absolute.

Thinking good thoughts only gets you so far. The research shows that the best effects for those with major

depression come from a combination of medication and theraputic approaches like Burns's.

You have to treat the

situation (e.g., depressed body; with meds, diet, lifestyle, exercise, etc.) as well. This is one of the many

insights behind Aristotle's approach.

Though you raise important issues, nonscents, I think you might be

misinterpreting Aristotle a tad bit here. The point isn't that any particular "external good" (anything situational

that is good) like a good haircut, children or wealth is necessary for happiness. The point is rather that the

situation in general must be such to permit and engender true happiness, which is much more than just

a sense of meaning -- Frankl's concept for what is possible for all humans.

The ancient Greeks do get

specific in that for both Plato and Aristotle a polis, or particular kind of democratic, just culture;

political system and society; is necessary for it's citizens to have full opportunity to pursue and achieve

happiness. (Similarly, here the pursuit of happiness is considered a right that government can protect) If you have

an unjust, corrupt society, then not everyone can be happy.

You could say the same about one's body or any

other all-encompassing aspect of one's situation. These have an effect on the probability and extent of

happiness.

Here I'll agree with Aristotle. I don't think starving residents of Calcutta can all be truly

happy, in the Aristotelian sense of fulfilling their telos, or purpose. Nor can all slaves or other

victims of extreme persecution.

This doesn't stop them from empowering themselves politically, but it

doesn't make it any easier either. Why do you think the disadvantaged in this country have such a hard time

changing anything, whereas CEO's can just pick up a phone and get it done?

Those in unjust, corrupt societies

-- or who are otherwise profoundly unfortunate -- can have a sort of satisfaction, cheer, or fulfillment. And some

can maybe be "happy" (the priviledged in a corrupt society, for example. Though Aristotle and Plato would

argue that such a person is not virtuous and therefore cannot be truly happy.). But they cannot have the full

opportunity for real happiness, or eudaimona; which to Aristotle is a very special kind of state of being --

the fullfillment of one's telos or natural, holistic purpose -- only loosely related to what we think of as

"happiness", which is typically some kind of cheerfulness (this doesn't even scratch the surface of

eudaimona). Some "good things" are situation dependent.

For Aristotle and Plato, the structure of society

also engenders the virtues themselves, which are of course necessary for happiness. Just laws teach justice; and

corrupt laws teach corruption, for example. I think you are seeing that in our society the corruption of government

is reflected in the ethics of many ordinary citizens; that think, for example, it's OK to violently take over any

country that has oil and a dictator; it's OK to torture; and it's OK for ordinary citizens to lose their rights

due to hyped-up fears about terrorism.

Even if we reduce our notion of "happiness" to Frankl's "sense of

meaning", and argue that everyone can have a meaningful life; that is not to say everybody can be like Frankl in the

Nazi concentration camp, feeling bliss at thoughts of the Divine or his beloved. I think that's great for Victor

Frankl that he could experience that. But the idea that anybody can be absolutely happy at any time; no

matter the circumstances is to me a dangerous and misleading notion. Not everyone is Buddha, and can meditate

themselves into bliss, 24/7, particularly if they haven't devoted their lives to Buddhism or some other such

enlightenment practice. This is existential psychology to the extreme, and ignores the extent to which meaning

itself is constrained and codefined by situations (the postmodernist correction of existentialism).
This type of

idea makes it more difficult to understand the devastating effects of child abuse and other extreme trama. Not

everyone can just suck it up and pull themselves out of it. Those of cheerful disposition and priviledge should be

careful not to expect so much of the unfortunate, as easy as it might be to do so.

As humans we are

fundamentally dependent on others, on our bodies, and on situations. It is part of the human condition. This

doesn't negate our freedom to choose optimal meanings for ourselves in a given moment; to change; to learn; and to

grow.

I think it's reasonable to say that true happiness is a huge thing to have, and that if everything in

one's situation sucks you can have something good, but not true happiness in the complete sense, without changing

the situation.

That gives us something to shoot for as a species; and identifies it by name. This all dovetails

nicely with the requirements of a strong, activist political philosophy as well.

To me it makes more sense to

set achievable goals for life, and hope for the best; than it does to expect the best (eudaimona) and

risk probable disappointment and frustration.

Thanks again to holmes, nonscents, and everyone else; for helping

us to see that philosophy can be fun!

[DumLuc]

Speaking philosophically, of

course, I think happiness starts with a nonscents wink.

[a.k.a.]

Depression, crazy

man ... why is this in the humor section? I've read nothing funny. :think:

Anyone!? Anyone!?

:blink:

Some people laugh at stupid stuff. Some people laugh at nasty stuff. Some people laugh at

being photographed with naked muslim men who’ve been forced to defile themselves in the eyes of their god. But if

you can’t laugh at the absurd stuff this world is going to overwhelm you. And isn’t all humor really just whistling

in the dark? Laughter across the Abyss?
Like when you’re sitting in the patio of your neighborhood coffee

shop during the first week of January, the temperature has already reached 60 degrees, everybody’s in shorts, the

snow from yesterday’s snow storm still hasn’t melted from the shady spots across the street and your girlfriend

says, “Days like this I can’t tell if it’s the begining of the end or just another lovely day.”

I think it’s

funny. But to each their own.