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NaughtieGirl
03-14-2005, 02:05 PM
Edit:

Original link (http://pherolibrary.com/forum/showpost.php?p=150888)

It is her research that I first

bumped into on the internet. I found it so intriguing that I kept on reading and cross-referencing and I ended up

here!

I did a search on her product for women - Athena 10:13 and didn't find much info on it here. Am I correct

in assuming it is DHEA based, just like the Pherlure. It must have quite a bit of nol in it as well, I would

guess.

What is your take on this product? I bought it, tried it for 5 weeks. Nothing major happened. I had one

shining star evening with some friends where everyone was paying alot of attention to me, complimenting me, etc.

Ohter than that, the stares from guys could be just due to the fact that I am more aware of my surroundings after I

put on the mones. Maybe they were there all along and I didn't notice. I'm currently in limbo - waiting for my new

products (from this site) to arrive. I'd appreciate any comment you could make regarding the Athena 10:13. I'd be

honored to have your opinion.

Naughtie

CptKipling
03-14-2005, 04:39 PM
bump :)
...

NaughtieGirl
03-14-2005, 05:23 PM
bump :)
...
Things that go "bump" in the night... Sorry you'll have to teach me how

to move some of this stuff to some of the different forums!
<img>
Naughtie

jvkohl
03-14-2005, 08:17 PM
I'd

appreciate any comment you could make regarding the Athena 10:13. I'd be honored to have your

opinion.
Naughtie

From update March 1,

2005:
--------------------------------------------------------------
... during the Montel Williams television

show that aired on November 16, 1993, Winnifred Cutler said, "Well, I can't tell you the exact secret formula. But

I can tell you it contains human pheromones, DHEA. And they're dissolved in an alcohol, a standard cosmetic

alcohol, SD40. During her appearance on the Sally Jessy Raphael television show that aired on February 2, 1994,

Cutler claimed that "There's a patent pending for it." She has since continued to claim that the patent process

prevents her from disclosing her product ingredients. The full text of her 1992 patent is available HERE. What is

she trying to hide?
-------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think that

Cutler has any valid claim with regard to her products. I don't know anyone involved in olfactory research that

believes her claims are remotely credible. Research reports from testing her products make good press, but until she

publically reveals what "pheromones" she thinks she discovered, no one will be able to replicate studies that she

claims show her products work. No replication, no science.

JVK

surfs_up
03-15-2005, 10:35 AM
Most of my early experiments with pheros were with Virginia Cutler's two

additive products. In concentrated form they are powerful. They have intense, unmistakable behavioral effects, both

in crowds and on individuals. The reason they may not have as much punch in small dose applications is that she has

an aversion to androstadienone. Her materials have a distincly sweet -nol fragrance if you know what to sniff for. I

am almost certain that they contain more than DHEA, she lets people think she's using DHEA. I once directly asked

her about androstadienone and estratatraenol and she immediately clammed up. I'm almost certain she's using

estratatreanol, which, BTW, is one helluva good pheromone in both men's and women's formulas, a damned sight

better than androstadienol. Estratatraenol is expensive though, as a matter of fact, about the most expensive

commercially available pheromone on the market, I was last quoted $1200 US per gram by Molcan, and with the dollar

falling it may have gone up from there. I'm not sure what Cutler's motivations are, although I have spoken to her

at length, she is a highly intelligent, and highly informed researcher with bona fide expertise in her field. She

is also, as is typically the case with real scientists, quite conservative in what she says and equally secretive.


Having said that, I frequently will combine a couple of vials of Cutler's formulae with some of my own

things, add in androstadienone and you get a potent as all get out sex juice. Simply because she lives in her own

world of marketing and promotion does not mean she isn't for real.

jvkohl
03-15-2005, 05:05 PM
Simply because she

lives in her own world of marketing and promotion does not mean she isn't for real.

A co-author of

her mid-80's studies from which she credits herself for discovering human pheromones told me that there was nothing

in their research that remotely suggested discovery of a human pheromone. He's for real. I don't recall any other

Forum posts that attest to the effectiveness of the Athena Products. I'm happy that you found some worth in

them.

JVK

surfs_up
03-15-2005, 08:32 PM
Her stuff works. Plain and simple. I've tested it on numerous groups, some informed, some naive. I've

tested in small groups where I passed around a treated paper towel and had individuals inhale, then report their

most immediate sensation. The results ranged from mild to wild. So the fact is that it isn't just me noticing

effects. I've realeased larger amounts into large crowded restaurants and seen wholesale behavioral changes. I

believe that the limitation of the product is that it is purely alcohol based and evaporates rapidly. Right there

may be an important key. The control of release over time may be a more important factor than previously recognized.

I expect the best way to get her stuff to work would be to keep the original bottle in the freezer so the vapor

pressure is low, pour a little out into a small tube or bottle with a light deordorized vegetable oil, shake

vigorously and apply.

NaughtieGirl
03-16-2005, 02:53 PM
Thank you both for these extremely interesting posts! I am truly intrigued by this product. Having read Dr.

Cutler'sr books I have developed a healthy dose of respect for the lady, and I have to just trust her. Now, whether

her particular formulation works for everyone or on everyone, is another matter. Like I said, I have had mixed

successes. Some startling reactions (from gay people no less!) but nothing consistent enough for me to be excited

about. And certainly not with my husband who was the intended recipient!
I will most certainly give the oil

formulation a try.

JVK - I did also buy your product (unscented) and I'm very anxious to try it out. Since

everything I bought has no -rone and very little -none in it, I'm not going to worry about OD-ing until it actually

happens (if it does).

Watcher
03-16-2005, 05:42 PM
Naughtygirl suggest you read the

book by JVK as well it gives a much more plausible and science (modern) basis for pheromone research. His a real

leader in this field

That said persobally tried cutlers products myself

One word

EXPENSIVE

PERFUME / COLONGE

Even realm gives better results

Much better real quality with the LS products but

just my thoughts

DrSmellThis
03-16-2005, 08:35 PM
I understand fully that Cutler

gets no scientific respect. At some point she would have to release formulae to other scientists to get that.



However, whether her product works or not is an open question in my mind. Forum reports have been unimpressive,

with only a small minority reporting success.

That doesn't mean the product is useless. The A314 product has

few good reports when used alone, but I have found a way to get results with it in combinations, for example.



Nor does it mean it is useful.

It is logical to suspect DHEA might be a pheromone, given how extremely

plentiful it is on our skin, and given that it is a propheromone. I do know of one other pheromone

manufacturer/scientist that suspects as much. That said, there is no evidence about it.

On the other

hand, in my personal experimentation I believe I have had a number of positive experiences with women following a

small dose (5-10mg) of oral DHEA, and less positive or negative ones with a large dose (30mg plus). That suggested

to me it could be pheromonally active when ingested. You can get a jar of it for $5.00 and see for yourself.

I

just don't think the Cutler product is worth the high price; given the risk of poor results. I'd be happy to try

it for free. DHEA is cheap stuff, though DHEA-s is, I believe, illegal for the general public to buy; is unstable;

and yet is the form most plentifully found on our skin.

If Cutler was smart she would give free samples away in

the forum here. If it hooked people, she'd benefit; and perhaps restore some of her reputation.

DrSmellThis
03-16-2005, 08:58 PM
Her stuff

works. Plain and simple. I've tested it on numerous groups, some informed, some naive. I've tested in small groups

where I passed around a treated paper towel and had individuals inhale, then report their most immediate sensation.

The results ranged from mild to wild. So the fact is that it isn't just me noticing effects. I've realeased larger

amounts into large crowded restaurants and seen wholesale behavioral changes. I believe that the limitation of the

product is that it is purely alcohol based and evaporates rapidly. Right there may be an important key. The control

of release over time may be a more important factor than previously recognized. I expect the best way to get her

stuff to work would be to keep the original bottle in the freezer so the vapor pressure is low, pour a little out

into a small tube or bottle with a light deordorized vegetable oil, shake vigorously and apply.Interesting

reports.

Hey surf's up, do you really surf?

jvkohl
03-16-2005, 10:19 PM
It is

logical to suspect DHEA might be a pheromone, given how extremely plentiful it is on our skin, and given that

it is a propheromone. I do know of one other pheromone manufacturer/scientist that suspects as much. That

said, there is no evidence about it.

References to anything the other suspecting scientist

has published are of interest to me. I've discussed the likelihood of DHEA as a pheromone with many olfactory

researchers.

The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to pheromones is well known. If DHEA could be linked to a

change in LH either in the same or opposite sex, it might deserve some consideration as a pheromone.

The

primary metabolites of DHEA: androsterone (A) and etiocholanolone (E), are much more likely to be pheromonally

active since the A/E ratio varies in males and females, as well as with sexual orientation in males.

The A/E

ratio somewhat attests to variability in processes of sexual differentiation that alter sexually differentiated

anatomy and physiology--with the differences in physiology being able to chemically signal others in a manner that

communicates sexual orientation, which is predisposed genetically before we are born.

Does an infant male

recognize that his mother is genetically female due to her visual features or due to her scent signature? Does a

homosexual male recognize another homosexual male by his visual features or by the genetics of his scent signature?

Studies of other mammals make it very clear that males and females recognize genetic make up, and sex/gender via

scent, not sight--though obviously they learn to associate the visual input with the scent. Does biological

research on humans suggest something else? Is human learning via scent/sight association different than learning in

other mammals?



If Cutler was smart she would give free samples away in the forum

here. If it hooked people, she'd benefit; and perhaps restore some of her reputation.]

As I

recall, she markets product with claims that it may take six weeks of use to be effective. She would need to give

away lots of product. Her basic premises seem flawed, her research is flawed, and she promotes secrecy. Her

reputation is unlikely to be restored.

JVK

Friendly1
03-16-2005, 11:57 PM
I vaguely recall some old

discussions of a substance, perhaps DHEA, which were converted to pheromones. Is that the case with DHEA? Does the

body convert it?

Seems to me some of the old-timers discussed some sort of metabolizing program to build up

their natural pheromones by taking a supplement.

If that is the case, would there be a connection between her

product and the supplement regimen?

Watcher
03-17-2005, 03:33 AM
DHEA well some conjecture i have

taken in hte past and noticed without pheromones some moderate "hits" take it more to feel good it helps on the

inside

As for cutler and the 6 weeks to work dribbel - you can put pheromones on and immediate

impact

So yes maybe some of her products do something but its bash the cutler products because mostly they

dont do anything versus the other stuff sold here on LS

Cutlers products = overprice smelly colonge perhaps

with trace amoutns of unknown formulae and hype hype hype

InACharmedLife
03-17-2005, 01:28 PM
Given the grammar of

Cutler's quote (from the Montel Williams show), it seems to me that she said her product contains human pheromones

AND DHEA, since she said "THEY'RE" dissolved in alcohol. To me it suggest that she uses both.
I have no idea if

her Athena products work or not, but from the reviews I've read, it does appear that the female version, Athena

10:13, is the more effective of the two. Any ideas why that might be?
Also, while I agree that it doesn't promote

good science by preventing replication of a study, I can sort of appreciate Cutler's reluctance to divulge her

"formula". Doing so would make her product able to be reproduced, and thus potentially less profitable for Cutler.

I'm not sure I blame her for awaiting a patent before making the formula ingredients public.

InACharmedLife
03-17-2005, 01:48 PM
I forgot to add that

Cutler states her Athena 10:13 is human pheromone synthesized from the armpit sweat of younger women. Could that be

DHEA? (I have no idea how one gets DHEA!)

On another note, does anyone (JVKohl??) know if topically applied

synthetic human estrogens like estriol or estradiol have any effect on increasing a female's attractiveness to

males? I wonder, since estrogen levels drop with increased age, if boosting estrogen levels (either topically or

orally) actually have an affect on copulin strength/production?

surfs_up
03-17-2005, 01:49 PM
Look, either you take a substance out in the field and you test it hard, find out when and

where it works, or you rely on second hand reports. The belief that Cutler's product is fundamentally based on DHEA

may be a load of crap. Anyone here done spectrography on it ? Because she says it has DHEA doesn't mean that's the

whole story. It may well be a cover to keep her out of proprietary conflicts. I have worked with pure androsterone,

a close realtive of DHEA, and it isn't like her product.

I now believe that her protocol either results in

the product being too dilute, or there is too much loss due to evaporation.
Dilute no more than one bottle per

fluid ounce of carrier, which should ideally be an unsaturated vegetable oil. As steroids are highly soluble in oil,

the pheromone will almost completely transfer into the oil carrier. Keep this in the refrigerator. If the oil

hardens at all due to the refrigeration, all ow it to warm up enough to liquify and apply the liquid to the

skin.

Neither her male nor her female product are overt sexualizers. They tend to be empathogenic

communication enhancers. If, as I previously stated, you add androstenone to the mixture it can become powerfully

sexual. From my conversations with her, I get the impression that she isn't too comfortable with unleashed male

sexuality, thus she intentionally designed a product with a gender equality slant to it.

The typical

consumer or pheromones, OTOH, doesn't appear to be buying them for their finer points of relationship improvement.

The basic selling point is more sex in less time with fewer speedbumps in the road. Your -none + -nol will do the

job fine if you have any self presentation skills whatsoever and you know the most, um, fertile hunting grounds to

visit.

When the Athena products are used in their strong form, with only moderate dilution, you can get an

intense feeling of harmony, communication, sometimes a feeling of deep empathy and understanding of another person.

Much social inhibition can drop away and you may experience almost disturbingly honest conversation, somehow

reminiscent of beta-nol. That deep soul feeling is probably estratatraenol. Most products won't contain it because

of its' high price.

Having said all of that, Athena makes a nice platform to build other formulae off of.

When I mixed up Athena, androstenone,
and some extra alpha-nol I began experiencing some incomparably fine

sexuous moments that had the full compliment of physical drive and emotional connection.

InACharmedLife
03-17-2005, 02:05 PM
You've made some

excellent points, SurfsUp, and I agree with you. And, I do plan to try the Athena 10:13 and field test it myself.

Why not?!
I was told by Cutler's representative that I should not mix te 10:13 into oil. but only alcohol based

fragrance and NOT atomized (spray) fragrance, either. May I ask a few questions of you?
-Do you think that simply

applying the 10:13 directly to the skin, without diluting it, would make it more effective? (The Rep. suggested this

method, too)
-In order to add an element of "powerful secuality" to the female Athena Version (the 10:13), what

should a woman add....copulins? Or, would androstenone work for both genders?
-When you say it creates a sense of

harmony, empathy and understanding, does the Athena 10:13 create these feelings in the wearer (the female) or in the

person exposed to the Athena 10:13 (the male)? In other words, does it act on the wearer or on the 'smeller'?
I

really appreciate your thoughts, SurfsUp. I myself have always thought there was more to Cutler's story (and

formula) than DHEA and slick marketing. I'm certainly willing to try her product out on myself, but I enjoy getting

input from everyone here about the product.
In closing, if Athena 10:13 creates the emotional intimacy and bonding,

and if it can be successfully paired with a sexual stimulator such as androstenone or copulins, it seems to me that

it is THE mix to wear, if one wants to establish a longterm romantic relationship woth someone as opposed to a

friendship or one-night-stand.
Interesting. Thanks!!

InACharmedLife
03-17-2005, 02:06 PM
Geez, pardon my typos!

I'm typing faster than my abilities, apparently!

DrSmellThis
03-17-2005, 02:32 PM
References to

anything the other suspecting scientist has published are of interest to me. I've discussed the likelihood of DHEA

as a pheromone with many olfactory researchers. And what have those researchers said?

If I become aware

of a relevant study I will post it. As I said, I know of no evidence directly supporting DHEA as a pheromone. It's

just a question worth asking, and your having had many discussions about it with scientists support that worth. But

the alluded conversation was an off the record chat during a business -- rather than academic -- discussion, which I

agreed to keep entirely confidential. The person was speculating, but works with scientists you'd well recognize

(at least one with Erox ties).


The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to pheromones is well known.

If DHEA could be linked to a change in LH either in the same or opposite sex, it might deserve some consideration as

a pheromone.LH change is indeed one valid measure of interest, due to its history within general mammalian

research.

The primary metabolites of DHEA: androsterone (A) and etiocholanolone (E), are much more

likely to be pheromonally active since the A/E ratio varies in males and females, as well as with sexual orientation

in males.Such sexual dimorphisim is indeed suggestive, though is not a necessary precondition for a

biochemical affecting attraction/arousal (whether or not someone would define that evocative chemical as a

"pheromone"). But is there not a parallel dimorphism with DHEA/progesterone (or even DHEA/pregnenolone, since it's

not all converted to these two) production and blood ratios?

Does an infant male recognize that his

mother is genetically female due to her visual features or due to her scent signature? Does a homosexual male

recognize another homosexual male by his visual features or by the genetics of his scent signature? Studies of other

mammals make it very clear that males and females recognize genetic make up, and sex/gender via scent, not

sight--though obviously they learn to associate the visual input with the scent. Does biological research on humans

suggest something else? Is human learning via scent/sight association different than learning in other

mammals?I'm not sure how this fits in with the rest of the discussion. So maybe I'm missing something. But

as I've always said, if you had to reduce attraction (much less "learning" in general -- another can of

worms -- which requires neither sight nor smell) to two specific senses (i.e., sight and smell); and if you

had to further reduce it to an either/or choice between them, then I'd of course choose

olfaction, but only on the grounds that the pheromonal reaction is more fundamental and primal (e.g., doesn't

require conscious recognition to have some impact on emotions -- not that all visual processing

requires conscious mediation; and not that emotions aren't also determined by other influences -- important

distinctions for the bigger picture), just like you do. But do you feel that both reductions are necessary,

and sets in relief "the only" interesting issue to look at (i.e., probable, partial conditioning of

some of the visual attraction reponse by pheromones, to be scientifically responsible about the language of

our conclusions)? Why?

Her basic premises seem flawed, her research is flawed, and she promotes

secrecy. Her reputation is unlikely to be restored.
The secrecy is definitely a problem, scientifically

speaking. But what specifically is flawed in her premises and research, besides her secrecy? Do you have a problem

with the methodology; or the analysis? If so, what?

DrSmellThis
03-17-2005, 02:38 PM
Geez,

pardon my typos! I'm typing faster than my abilities, apparently!You could always edit. :)

InACharmedLife
03-17-2005, 02:46 PM
And edit I will. I'm new

here and didn't realize that the "go advanced" button would allow editing!

NaughtieGirl
03-17-2005, 03:11 PM
At this point I might be able to contribute a little to this thread by reporting my

experiences with Athena 10:13. As I mentioned before, it was the first pheromone I discovered, so after a big sigh,

I plopped down the $99.

I mixed it with 1/2 oz of Estee Lauder's Intuition. So that's a pretty strong

concentration, albeit not oil. I used it faithfully every night - 2 dabs - right before sitting down on the couch

with my husband. Both on my pulse points and on my hair, depending on the night. My goal was to make him more open

and "kinder" and hopefully that was going to lead to more euhm... more sex. Did I notice any improvement with my

husband? No. Did I notice a change in other people? Yes. Within those 5 weeks of daily (and exclusive) use of Athena

10:13 he was told on 4 or 5 different occasions how "lucky" he is to have me. To the point where he is now wondering

why people keep telling him that! A gay male friend of ours all of a sudden started calling me "cutie" and "cutie

pie" etc. A female gay person I know started staring at me in aerobics class.

I wrote an e-mail to the Athena

people complaining about lack of results and they said that sometimes it takes 4 to 6 weeks to become effective.

They did not offer any explanation, but said that they are basing that on comments from customers.

Based on her

study results, I am assuming that her product is heavy on -nol. Aimed at getting affection and attention for women,

and especially menopausal women or women who have had a hysterectomy (I am neither). After 5 weeks of lukewarm

results, I bought an array of new products here. My strategy will be to go heavy on -nol and copulins with very

little to no -none and definitely no -rone.

OK - Now here's a newsflash. Yesterday my second combo shipment

arrived and I ended up slathering a little of everything on me. That would be: SOE unscented, NPA/w, PI/w some PCC

and maybe some Pherlure as well. Just a little of everything. It was just for the fun of it, cause my husband just

had surgery and I certainly wasn't expecting any action while he is on Percasset etc.
BUT... he always sleeps

with his back to me. Complains that I almost push him out the bed because I'm always moving over to him. Well guess

where we were when I woke up this morning! Way over to my side of the bed with him turned over to me! I now know the

uncomfortable feeling of almost being pushed out of bed! Now that's a first!

Will I buy more Athena 10:13

after this bottle is gone? It'll depend on the results of the new stuff. I have nothing against it, but it is quite

expensive. When my original 1/2 oz was half gone, I added more perfume to make it a full 1/2 oz again. So I'm at a

diltuion of 1 bottle of A10:13 to 1 oz of perfume. They recommend anywhere from undiluted to a 2 oz dilution. I will

start putting it on top of an oil base from now on. I need to compare this product to another one that is heavy on

-nol. Hope this info helps.

surfs_up
03-17-2005, 10:52 PM
I'd try one of the Athena and one of something else. Be careful once the seal is

broken on the Athena bottle it will evaporate very quickly. I always keep it in the freezer once the aluminum

sealing ring has been pulled off. Much may be lost if it is mixed with a fragrance unless you follow tight

procedure.

In one experiment I poured out an entire bottle onto a cloth and had a group of men take a deep

breath from the cloth. Their responses were extremely diverse. Some barely registered anything, others experienced

powerful druglike state shifts. The effect was absolutely immediate, within 1 second of inhalation. Maybe some guys

are high oxytocin releasers, others aren't.

Adding copulins would be an excellent idea, as would

experimenting with the many products available here. You might find a good ratio with NPA, even adding in Chikara

could possibly produce the extra kick you want.

You must accept the reality that not everyone is a high

affect passionate lover waiting to happen. Or, sometimes nothing will happen for a while then the right combination

of circumstances will occur and that person will do something surprising...

Example, I wore a nice dose, not

too strong of an Athna + Beta-Nol + Dienone mixture out to the theater tonight, fairly small place, old building,

Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin doing their thing.... a serious adult audience, sophisticated people.... there was a

nice subtle mood shift in the others around, something you learn to spot with experience, during intermission in the

crowded lobby you might notice people drifting a little mellower, a patience with others, not much agression around

the refreshment stand.... kinda humanizing, softening the edges...

surfs_up
03-17-2005, 10:56 PM
evaporate quickly, leaving you with a bottle filled with alcohol. Never, never leave

an unstoppered bottle open at room temperature or it is buh-bye expensive pheromone molecules. Wet your fingertip

with it and put in someplace where it won't all go away too fast. Armpits are excellent, designed by nature to be

phero spreaders, some streaks here and there....

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 06:13 AM
Do you think it's best

to put the Athena 10:13 into oil despite that the Athena folks advised against it?
If I put it on straight (and

stored the remainder in the freezer) how long would the pheromone molecules last on my skin? Wouldn't they

evaporate from my skin quickly as well??
I'll experiment with the Athena 10:13, and the Athena/copulins mix. (I'm

female) I'll report my findings. Thanks again!

surfs_up
03-18-2005, 07:39 AM
Exactly the issue faced by all pheromone product makers. An alcohol dissolved pheromone will produce a

strong immediate effect then rapidly fade. Unless you are in an enclosed volume where you intend to remain for a

while, this decay will look like a hyberbolic function. Recognizing this, the more clever manufacturers have used

glycols, oils, and lately a time release gel. With a release control agent or solvent, the emission of the

pheromones will be more dependent on temperature and humidity. If you take a small glass bottle (1 oz.) and fill it

about 3/4 full with a light vegetable oil, sunflower oil for example is an excellent, low odor, reasonably stable

oil, add a drop of vitamin E from a cut open vitamin E capsule (to retard rancidity), shake this until the Vitamin E

is dissolved. Let it sit until the air bubbles are gone. The pour in one vial of Athena and maybe one of women's

NPA, leaving enough air space at the top so it can be vigorously shaken... screw the cap on firmly and shake as hard

as you can for 30 seconds, then let it sit closed at room temperature for a day. Reshake it hard to make sure the

phero molecules have been absorbed by the oil carrier. Keep it in the refrigerator and away from light if you

aren't actively using it. Keep it cool and dark as possible when you are.

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 09:04 AM
SurfsUp, do you think

that the Athena 10:13 does anything different, that some mixture of pheromones available here at Love-Scent cannot

do? (If so, exactly what does it do differently??)
For example, what "blend" of pheromones would a woman wear to

mimic the effects of Athena 10:13?
Thank you again!

surfs_up
03-18-2005, 10:05 AM
my suspicion is that Cutler may be the only one possibly using estratatraenol, I cannot confirm

that. Observation from over 10 years of experimenting with it suggest that it does have a distinct signature. Other

products, LaCroy, Chikara especially probably have new(er) molecules that have their own behavioral flavors. When

you're working with a strong pheromone like androstenone there isn't as great of a subtlety factor. It is very

much a top dog, hot sex, turfy material. Each manufacturer can vary the ratios and add in rare nuancing pheromones

to give the experience more depth or range. For me, straight androstenone just isn't all that interesting. A really

good formula in my book is one where you walk away with enhanced insight into the other person and yourself as well.

When you're developing your particular mix you are in fact fine tuning the formulation for what you need. Say

you're young, foolish, and need nothing more than sloppy
pimply passion at the local hooch hut there is no need

to spend weeks refining your brew. OTOH, you're in a realtionship for a while and you like what you have, however

you'd like more layers to manifest.... then you may want to take a known quantity, one of the women's formulas

here, and add a shot of beta-androstenol, which really gets communication going. You want amped up sex, wait until

right before then dab yourself with an alcohol based juice with androstenone and alpha-androstenol (lots of it !)

for passion+romance....

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 10:18 AM
Women should use

androstenone?
Do the women's formulas here contain alpha-androstenol or beta-androstenol?
What exactly does

estratatraenol do, when worn by women?

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 10:25 AM
Also, is estratatraenol

the same as estratetraenol?

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 10:40 AM
A study showed that

estradienol and methoxyestateraene had positive effects on how people assess the opposite gender.
Under the

influence of estradienol, women assessed men more favorably.
Under the influence of methoxyestateraene, men

assessed women more favorably.
By more favorably, I mean the others were perceived as more attractive.
Are these

substances available, either singly or in commercial products?

NaughtieGirl
03-18-2005, 11:44 AM
Hey - You

seem to be dealing with that learning curve much faster than I am! Way to go!

I don't know the answer but you

could Google for it. Then do a "Search within results" to refine your search even more. I would gladly delve into

it, but I'm really having a hectic couple of days here. Packing our bags to go spend a week fixing up our rental

place in NC. Of course I''ll be toting my mones with me! The guys in NC are so much friendlier to begin with -

It's gonna be fun!

Naughtie (Who? - Moi?)

InACharmedLife
03-18-2005, 12:01 PM
I did google already. Not

much there, except for the mention of this particular study. It certainly seems that these are two substances we'd

want available here.
Have fun in NC!

DrSmellThis
03-19-2005, 11:07 AM
A study

showed that estradienol and methoxyestateraene had positive effects on how people assess the opposite gender.


Under the influence of estradienol, women assessed men more favorably.
Under the influence of methoxyestateraene,

men assessed women more favorably.
By more favorably, I mean the others were perceived as more attractive.
Are

these substances available, either singly or in commercial products?


http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub6.html

(http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub6.html)

InACharmedLife
03-20-2005, 08:19 AM
Yes, that is the study I

read. Any idea where those two substances can be obtained?

jvkohl
03-20-2005, 09:07 PM
As I said, I

know of no evidence directly supporting DHEA as a pheromone. It's just a question worth asking, and your having had

many discussions about it with scientists support that worth.

No other researcher that I have spoken

with gives any credibility to the claim that DHEA is a pheromone.


... is there not a

parallel dimorphism with DHEA/progesterone (or even DHEA/pregnenolone, since it's not all converted to these two)

production and blood ratios?

Arguably, such dimorphisms as those above are similar in importance to

the estrogen/androgen dimorphism, which is the basis for sex differences in pheromone production. Yet the DHEA

primary metabolites and their sexual dimorphism combined with the likely sexual dimorphism in olfactory processing

of the metabolites makes the androsterone/etiocholanolone ratio of more interest to me--especially given the

abundance of human DHEA production as compared to DHEA production in other mammals (species specificity,

perhaps).



But do you feel that both reductions are necessary,...




I would rather not use biological reductionism to make my case, but use it because without the reductionism

there is no case to be made. As you have often indicated, the big picture becomes too complex. Even my reductionist

mammalian model is too complex for many researchers who are well-versed in the biology of behavioral development.

Add any psychological issues and the stage is set for unproductive debate (e.g., the first 5 years of debate after

1995 book publication: The Scent of Eros). From circa 2000 on, I tailored my approach for other biologists to

assess. This has been more productive (albeit limiting).



But what specifically is

flawed in her premises and research, besides her secrecy? Do you have a problem with the methodology; or the

analysis? If so, what?

Rebuttals to her published research are cited at , and detail

problems with both the methodology and the analysis.

JVK