Living At Home

[culturalblonde]

I was surprised

that women aren't looked down on as much when they live at home with their parent(s) as men are. Especially when a

woman has a child or children. It seems acceptable. Why wouldn't it be just as acceptable for men? Is it a macho

thing?

[DrSmellThis]

Good question. I think men who

live at home are generally looked down upon, and that living at home past a certain age would tend to hurt the

self-esteem in this culture. In places like India it's more acceptable.

[Holmes]

I was

surprised that women aren't looked down on as much when they live at home with their parent(s) as men are.

Especially when a woman has a child or children. It seems acceptable. Why wouldn't it be just as acceptable for

men?

It has to do with society's traditional expectations of men and the degree to which men have

taken those expectations to heart. So, part societal pressure, part machismo. :lol:

Living at home suggests

that the man can't fully provide for--or take care of--himself (and, therefore, anyone else), whether or not

that's actually true.

Anyway, I was thinking that men are looked down upon for the above only marginally

moreso than are women...

[bjf]

Yea, how the hell can you provide for

a woman if you can't provide for yourself (that's the signal its sending)? Men are supposed to be leaders.

Everybody including women look down on the helpless man who needs to be taken care of. Women aren't expected to be

successful financially.

[Holmes]

The other thing is that living at

home (past a certain age) is generally interpreted by society as laziness, genetic and otherwise. As a lack of

willingness to get out there and brave the shitstorm, as it were.

And men who aren't willing to brave the

shitstorm, whether for their partner or themselves, ain't very attractive. (See Joseph Campbell. Or George

Costanza.)

[bjf]

The other thing is that

living at home (past a certain age) is generally interpreted by society as laziness, genetic and otherwise. As a

lack of willingness to get out there and brave the shitstorm, as it were.

And men who aren't willing to

brave the shitstorm, whether for their partner or themselves, ain't very attractive. (See Joseph Campbell. Or

George Costanza.)

So move out already, dude! :lol:

[Holmes]

:lol: :lol:

Yeah, the

Midtown Tunnel is gettin' kinda cramped.

[culturalblonde]

My friend went on a date

last night and I asked how it went. She went on and on about what a terrific guy he was. Everything she said led

me to believe that she had found the right guy. When I asked if she was going out with him again, she said, "h_ll

no, he lives with his mother." I was shocked because this was the only thing stopping her from seeing him again.

He is 35 and she is 33. Of course, I'm thinking maybe his mother is ill and he is taking care of her, or he is

trying to get back on his feet. But I don't think that either is the case. She said he has never been out on his

own.

[culturalblonde]

P.S.

I did tell

her today that in India it was acceptable. :D
She gave me a look like this ---> :mad:
I guess I will drop

the subject now.

[MOBLEYC57]

My friend

went on a date last night and I asked how it went. She went on and on about what a terrific guy he was. Everything

she said led me to believe that she had found the right guy. When I asked if she was going out with him again, she

said, "h_ll no, he lives with his mother." I was shocked because this was the only thing stopping her from seeing

him again. He is 35 and she is 33. Of course, I'm thinking maybe his mother is ill and he is taking care of her, or

he is trying to get back on his feet. But I don't think that either is the case. She said he has never been out on

his own.I stay with my mom, too. I have been mentally battling with the female's view/opinion on men who

live with their moms, and it bothered me for the longest. Now, I appreciate a woman that doesn't want to be with

me/see me because I live with my mom. I've found, I'm better off, 'cause with the mentality of one who thinks

that way and is bothered by it, belongs alone. :cheers:

I'm definitely a MOMMY'S boy, and it's not the

MOMMY'S boy that she makes my decision, or I ask for her advice, but the MOMMY's boy that has her as A VERY

SPECIAL part of me ... my mom and my friend. I could care less what women/someone thinks ... now.

:wave: I even tell people/women I live with my mom ... now. :drunk:

P.S. It's also accepted in Europe,

and the mother washes their clothes, irons them, cooks, and cleans their 20-50 year old son's rooms. What's

America!

[MOBLEYC57]

P.S.S. Just because I

posted my thoughts, don't stop on the blasting of a 47 year man that lives with, loves, and thinks the world of his

mom.

Believe you me, I can take it, and I WILL NOT get offended. I love hearing how/what people think in all

kinds of situations!

Blast away, if you get the urge. If it gets too bad, I'll have to invite you into the

KING's MiniPool Room, and spank ya good! :twisted:

Annnd, as for women getting look down upon for staying with

their parent(s) ... you have to always consider the source. The mentality of some people are really amazing

if you step back and look at the big picture ... some can't see the big picture, so you have people saying what

they say. Who really has the right to look down on anyone? :think:

[DrSmellThis]

In the past living not only

with a parent, but one's entire extended family was more accepted. It is still accepted more in inner cities and

Hispanic (and other Ethnic) neighborhoods, where financial considerations tend to help such traditions endure.



A productive life in which one makes a unique contribution, feels fulfilled, and utilizes one's gifts for

others does not necessitate living on one's own; or necessarily even benefit from it!

We tend to take

American individualism as the will of God. It is merely a trait of one specific culture, at a specific point in

history.

Truth be told, if everyone lived in small intimate communities -- extended families plus others, for

example -- and shared resources; there would be far more peace and prosperity on the planet.

Mobley has some

courage to come on here and say all that.

Whether a lot of women would recognize this is another issue.

[Holmes]

Great posts, Doc and Mobley!

[MOBLEYC57]

Whether a lot

of women would recognize this is another issue.You can say that again, Doc! :sick: :rant: :sick: Thank God,

I know for a fact, there are good looking, intelligent women, that do recognize this.:cheers:

Regardless of how

anyone views me, I'm doing just fine ... in a l l areas! :wave:

[bjf]

Regardless of

how anyone views me


Anyone who doesn't think the world of you, doesn't know you :box:

[MOBLEYC57]

Anyone who doesn't

think the world of you, doesn't know you :box:
You've got me blushing, BJF! :lovestruc

[culturalblonde]

I for one would not let

that hold me back from seeing a man. Other cultures' views are interesting to me. My fiance is from the

Netherlands Antilles, so I asked him to get his viewpoint. He said, "Dey nuh wife wit mudda." :think: He really

knows how to make me laugh. :lovestruc

[Holmes]

My fiance is

from the Netherlands Antilles

Zoukland! :cool:

[DrSmellThis]

I for

one would not let that hold me back from seeing a man. Other cultures' views are interesting to me. My fiance is

from the Netherlands Antilles, so I asked him to get his viewpoint. He said, "Dey nuh wife wit mudda." :think: He

really knows how to make me laugh. :lovestruclol. :) .....

[Icarus]

I haven't lived at home since I

was 15, and I have to say: it made significant changes in my personality. I still love my parents, and try to see

them/speak to them a lot, but I love my independance.


I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with

living with your folks, as my brother only recently moved out at the age of 26; I simply feel that it helped my

development so much that I wouldn't have had it any other way.

It's great to have place that is your own to

take a girl back to, as well. There's something of the naughty teenager about bringing a girl back to a parental

abode (which can be quite nice for a weekend, but would freak me out in the long run. No screaming, or room

changing etc etc)

Either or, really. I just like it this way.

Peace and Love

Steve

[InternationalPlayboy]

I was going to send

this to Mobley in a PM, but decided to air my dirty laundry for all to see.

I wish I had Mobley's attitude

about this. I'm 45 and living at home right now. My younger brother is too. My sister is the only one who achieved

escape velocity from this town, partially because she went against the parents advice when she accepted a job in

Phoenix.

For me, there are are a couple of factors why I live at home. Several years ago, my dad had a triple

bypass. A few years later, my mom had brain surgery to remove a tumor. So I stayed around to help them. Add to that

the "discipline" that I received as a child which made me afraid to take risks and the fact that I accrued enormous

credit card debt trying to buy happiness during my parents' bad health periods. So now, I'm stuck where I am,

trying to get out of debt.

Needless to say, living at home is detrimental to a healthy love life. Mainly from

the self-esteem issues that society brings on, mainly through the media. Guys like me are the brunt of a lot of

jokes in sitcoms. I'm reminded of a conversation from the show, "Men Behaving Badly," starring Rob Schnider and

another guy whose name I forget:

(paraphrased)

Other Guy: I ran into Frank Smith today, remember

him from high school?

Schnider: Oh yeah, how's he doing?

Other Guy: Seems he made it big in computer

programming. He developed some kind of operating system and is now filthy rich. He owns a 20 acre estate on which

he's building a home for his parents.

Schnider: He lives with his parents?

Other Guy:

Yeah.

Schneider: Loser!

Other Guy: Yeah.

I picked my handle at love scent partially in

irony as I live such a dull life. Stymied by the "loser" vibe I feel from living with the parents and "all work and

no play" syndrome. But like someone mentioned in the thread, how can a woman expect to be supported when I can't

even support myself right now. I am also intimidated by the fact that most women my age have been married and

divorced and have a kid or two. And that intimidation gets worse as I age. The realization that I'm suddenly 45,

depresses me. I keep thinking that I've reached my peak socially and professionally and it's all downhill from

here.

Again, I think a lot of it comes from television. You see beautiful, happy people living in places they

couldn't afford in reality (see "Friends"). All my life I wanted to be a 60s style swinging bachelor, but I'm more

like the comic book guy from "The Simpsons."

[seduceme]

Well simply because women are

hardwired to be attracted to someone who can protect and provide. On all levels, emotional, materialistic etc.



Why? Well it makes sense that a woman would choose a man that is going to protect and perpetuate their

genes, meaning their offspring. Thus its attractive if the man can show that he can handle himself, his life and

possibly an offpsring and care and provide for it.

[Holmes]

I was

going to send this to Mobley in a PM, but decided to air my dirty laundry for all to see.

I wish I had

Mobley's attitude about this. I'm 45 and living at home right now. My younger brother is too. My sister is the

only one who achieved escape velocity from this town, partially because she went against the parents advice when she

accepted a job in Phoenix.

For me, there are are a couple of factors why I live at home. Several years ago,

my dad had a triple bypass. A few years later, my mom had brain surgery to remove a tumor. So I stayed around to

help them. Add to that the "discipline" that I received as a child which made me afraid to take risks and the fact

that I accrued enormous credit card debt trying to buy happiness during my parents' bad health periods. So now,

I'm stuck where I am, trying to get out of debt.

Needless to say, living at home is detrimental to a healthy

love life. Mainly from the self-esteem issues that society brings on, mainly through the media. Guys like me are the

brunt of a lot of jokes in sitcoms. I'm reminded of a conversation from the show, "Men Behaving Badly," starring

Rob Schnider and another guy whose name I forget:

(paraphrased)


I picked my handle at love scent

partially in irony as I live such a dull life. Stymied by the "loser" vibe I feel from living with the parents and

"all work and no play" syndrome. But like someone mentioned in the thread, how can a woman expect to be supported

when I can't even support myself right now. I am also intimidated by the fact that most women my age have been

married and divorced and have a kid or two. And that intimidation gets worse as I age. The realization that I'm

suddenly 45, depresses me. I keep thinking that I've reached my peak socially and professionally and it's all

downhill from here.

Again, I think a lot of it comes from television. You see beautiful, happy people living

in places they couldn't afford in reality (see "Friends"). All my life I wanted to be a 60s style swinging

bachelor, but I'm more like the comic book guy from "The Simpsons."

This was the first post I read

today and, quite frankly, it blew me away.

[CptKipling]

Yeah I know, deep thread.

[MOBLEYC57]

I

was going to send this to Mobley in a PM, but decided to air my dirty laundry for all to see.

I wish I had

Mobley's attitude about this. I'm 45 and living at home right now. My younger brother is too. My sister is the

only one who achieved escape velocity from this town, partially because she went against the parents advice when she

accepted a job in Phoenix.

For me, there are are a couple of factors why I live at home. Several years ago, my

dad had a triple bypass. A few years later, my mom had brain surgery to remove a tumor. So I stayed around to help

them. Add to that the "discipline" that I received as a child which made me afraid to take risks and the fact that I

accrued enormous credit card debt trying to buy happiness during my parents' bad health periods. So now, I'm stuck

where I am, trying to get out of debt.

Needless to say, living at home is detrimental to a healthy love life.

Mainly from the self-esteem issues that society brings on, mainly through the media. Guys like me are the brunt of a

lot of jokes in sitcoms. I'm reminded of a conversation from the show, "Men Behaving Badly," starring Rob Schnider

and another guy whose name I forget:

(paraphrased)


I picked my handle at love scent partially in irony as

I live such a dull life. Stymied by the "loser" vibe I feel from living with the parents and "all work and no play"

syndrome. But like someone mentioned in the thread, how can a woman expect to be supported when I can't even

support myself right now. I am also intimidated by the fact that most women my age have been married and divorced

and have a kid or two. And that intimidation gets worse as I age. The realization that I'm suddenly 45, depresses

me. I keep thinking that I've reached my peak socially and professionally and it's all downhill from here.



Again, I think a lot of it comes from television. You see beautiful, happy people living in places they couldn't

afford in reality (see "Friends"). All my life I wanted to be a 60s style swinging bachelor, but I'm more like the

comic book guy from "The Simpsons."
IPB, TV can cut out the parts it doesn't like, and that's all there

is to it. If you never do anything else in this life ... stop worrying about what others think ... ESPECIALLY WOMEN,

if that be your major concern. Regardless of what people say/think, there are women out there that'll take you just

as YOU ARE. That will come, and when it does, you'll have no doubt about it being love. Tis a lonely path, but

I've traveled it, I'm still alive, and I have an outstanding and very intelligent woman. It's not about attitude,

it's about how you feel about you. Everything in life that's not physical, can pretty much be fixed with your

brain. That brain is a powerful tool ... use it!

Taking care of other people's kids is no easy task. I for one,

would help if I could, if I can't, so be it! If someone falls for you and they have 10 kids, believe you me, it

won't matter because that thing call LOVE pulls off miracles!

You can only be who you are, and if it's not

hurting people, accept it. If YOU FEEL, not think, it must be fixed, fix it, but for the love of doodoo ... don't

let other people/women mold your thinking! It's like people putting their happiness in other people's hands ...

GURANTEED DISAPPOINTMENT! Believe you me, you will be fine, and there are thousands, if not millions, that are

dealing with the same mental tag, that they have allowed society/some women to stamp on their foreheads. You moving

out before you're ready will only put in the same STRESSFUL situation that millions are in ... living to work, vice

working and living. You can join so many by hooking up with someone you're not in love with, to get out on your

own, but that just doesn't makes any sense to me ... but, millions do it. So many unhappy faces, but they have

their own place and someone to help them make it. Yuck!!

Keep ya head up, you're much better off than you

think! It's just gonna take you some time to see that ... there will be good days and bad days, but in the end ...

you'll find ... you did what was BEST for YOU.

Luv ya! :lovestruc Now, Luv yourself!:run:

P.S. And if the

world doesn't like the way you're living ... f#ck'em! It AIN'T none of their business anywayS!!

:rasp:

[culturalblonde]

InternationalPlayboy: My

heart goes out to you, especially your parents. You are a gem and will be blessed for your unselfishness. Your

parents must be proud that they raised such a giving son.

As I said previously, I would never let a man

living at home stop me from seeing the guy. I was more surprised at the double standards our society has placed on

men versus women living at home.

Also, I agree with MobleyC57... we need to learn to love ourselves first.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Thanks everyone for

the words of encouragement.


Also, I agree with MobleyC57... we need to learn to love

ourselves first.

Believe me, I'm a lot better off than I was five or especially ten years ago. I

attribute it to a combination of self-hypnosis and "mind programming" CDs and daily meditation. That's one reason

I'm so interested in behavioral modification CDs. Ten years ago, I was reading a lot of self-help books. A question

on a date about my spirituality led to my discovery of Deepak, which led to Wayne Dyer, which led to my learning

meditation from Siva Baba (http://www.sivababa.org), whom Dyer dedicated a book to under the name Sri

Guruji Pillai. I give most of the credit to Baba's meditations. I no longer read as much self-help as I did,

probably not even a book a year anymore. I still enjoy the "brainwashing" CDs though. I'm doing a lot better than I

was, but there are still down days, like most people have.

I wonder if the self-esteem issues are why I like

products like Chikara and Realm. They both make me feel better about myself and Chikara makes me feel more like a

"babe magnet" because I feel more attractive while wearing it and I seem to get a lot of friendly looks from women

with it.

I consider myself lucky that I can live with my parents while I pay off my debt. I have a shelter

over my head and I'm fed. Mom's cooking helps a lot with my ten hour work days (almost twelve if you count lunch

and the commute). If it wasn't for her, I'd probably be living on der Weinersnitzel and Taco Bell fast food. It's

not a complete free ride as I do pay some rent and all my other expenses.

Sometimes there's tension due to

the close quarters, but I'd rather be living with family than unhappy in a wrong relationship. Something that

almost happened once. About a month after the woman told me she'd ruin my life if I stayed around, like she did to

all her other men, she announced she was pregnant. Though we made out several times, something in the back of my

mind told me that sex would be dangerous. I'm sure glad I listened to my brain in my head instead of the one in my

groin.

In today's economy, there are so many families where both the husband and wife work just to live at

the same standard that people did in the 1960s and '70s. And there are a lot of young married couples with children

moving back to live with one of the sets of parents. My mom's brothers didn't live at home in the small town in

Nebraska where they're from. But they bought houses directly next door to the house they grew up in, where their

parents lived until they died.

[wood elf]

International Playboy:

I

think what you are doing is wonderful. You earned my deepest respect for doing something that takes a great person

to even contemplate. In my eyes there is a difference between a man like you who lives with his parents for

altruistic reasons and some of the people who just do not want to deal with responsibility. You sound like a good

person. It will come back to you some time in some way.

Wood Elf

[tim929]

Here is a thought for you...In

1990-91 when the build up of troops was beginning in the Persian Gulf for the impending invasion of Iraq,I watched

video from the tarmac of a U.S. Airforce base of a group of Army Rangers boarding a cargo aircraft bound for the

Gulf.All the wives and mothers and fathers and children were there to see thier soldiers off...maybe for the last

time.The fairwells were polite,friendly,stoic and generaly unemotional.
Same day...on CNN was a video of Italian

paratroopers boarding a cargo aircraft bound also for the Gulf.These are,in all honesty...men of equal metal and

millitary prowess of the U.S. troops seen earlier.They are tough,diciplined and rugged individuals trained to jump

from aircraft into combat without a second thought for thier own safety.These brave men of honor and dicipline had

no problem weeping and crying openly...embracing thier mothers and fathers crying on thier shoulders.The fairwells

continued in this manner and some of the troops even broke ranks to run back to thier mothers and give them one last

hug befor going off to war.The difference was stunning.It became very clear to me that here in the U.S.,people have

a very different view of family and the connection that family should have.Sons here are expected to be independant

and solitary.Hunters,protectors,providers.And somehow,the idea of living at home is seen as contrary to that

goal.However,in my oppinion...that go-it-alone attitude robs us of a very important connection to our family and

ourselves.Our ego steals our sense of connection to the ones that realy are the most important people in our

lives.And it shouldnt be a problem for anyone to understand and respect that connection that we have to our

families...the same connection that they should have.As someone whos parents died when I was still a very young

man,I can tell you that the lack of connection to family realy isnt a sign of strength...

[koolking1]

I've heard that Italian

single women are not happy with the situation in Italy wherein many single men (with good jobs and the means to

support themselves) continue to live at home with a "momma" who will still do all his cooking, cleaning, etc..



Now, please don't get me wrong, I know there are many situations where this is necessary. Were it not for

my brother, I might also have been living with my Mom who's 84 and can always use some help. There was also a

point in my life where I was so poor that I had to consider it but I got lucky.

[MOBLEYC57]

Here is a thought

for you...In 1990-91 when the build up of troops was beginning in the Persian Gulf for the impending invasion of

Iraq,I watched video from the tarmac of a U.S. Airforce base of a group of Army Rangers boarding a cargo aircraft

bound for the Gulf.All the wives and mothers and fathers and children were there to see thier soldiers off...maybe

for the last time.The fairwells were polite,friendly,stoic and generaly unemotional.
Same day...on CNN was a video

of Italian paratroopers boarding a cargo aircraft bound also for the Gulf.These are,in all honesty...men of equal

metal and millitary prowess of the U.S. troops seen earlier.They are tough,diciplined and rugged individuals trained

to jump from aircraft into combat without a second thought for thier own safety.These brave men of honor and

dicipline had no problem weeping and crying openly...embracing thier mothers and fathers crying on thier

shoulders.The fairwells continued in this manner and some of the troops even broke ranks to run back to thier

mothers and give them one last hug befor going off to war.The difference was stunning.It became very clear to me

that here in the U.S.,people have a very different view of family and the connection that family should have.Sons

here are expected to be independant and solitary.Hunters,protectors,providers.And somehow,the idea of living at home

is seen as contrary to that goal.However,in my oppinion...that go-it-alone attitude robs us of a very important

connection to our family and ourselves.Our ego steals our sense of connection to the ones that realy are the most

important people in our lives.And it shouldnt be a problem for anyone to understand and respect that connection that

we have to our families...the same connection that they should have.As someone whos parents died when I was still a

very young man,I can tell you that the lack of connection to family realy isnt a sign of strength...Who is

though that has pulled my ghost of HOPE of a different kind of suicide from the Gulf, because I was misunderstood by

family ... the most important thing in my LIFE? :blink:

The only and most confused time of my life ... I

volunteered for Desert Storm with hopes that God would have some how found my company entertaining. Only to do my

tour, and return back to Italy. Not strong enough to walk over the fence myself, so I voluteered for a second tour,

using the excuse of the man that was going to replace me, had just had a kid, and should not be chosen. Luck struck

twice, but God didn't have a seat for me in his house. Desert Storm, turned to Desert Shield, and my chances of

being chosen to keep God company dissappeared. I've been hurt by love as to where I was so weak, I knew I was going

to die, but during that time I WANTED IT ... just not enough to make that attempt myself, for fear of someone saying

I was weak. So I volunteered, hoping a bomb, stray bullet, or anything caused by either, would find it's way into

my life to claim it.

Now, I'm reminded of what I THOUGHT was a bad time in my life, was shown that it was not,

and appreciating it.

My mom's 74th birthday is Friday ... I'll be a part of it, and I'm greatful to be able

to. International, the only shame in what you're doing, and how you're doing it, is in your head and in your head

only, for your thoughts is what's going to fix the problem, or make it worse.

You're right Koolest of Kings,

there's a difference in not wanting to do, and can't do. And one that's not a crackhead would be CRAZY to choose

a way of stress because of what others think. Italian women want a provider, too. Everyone complain's when they

don't get what they want. The thing is ... it's one thing to provide for YOUR family, but to provide for A WOMAN

with no kids? :blink: Somebody needs to get a job, and if it doesn't pay well enough, somebody needs to go back to

school, and then get a job!:whip:

[Sigfreed]

CulturalBlonde


I

was surprised that women aren't looked down on as much when they live at home with their parent(s) as men are.

Especially when a woman has a child or children. It seems acceptable. Why wouldn't it be just as acceptable for

men? Is it a macho thing?
I know what you mean as when I was 21yrs old living at home ppl thought I was

lazy, no ambition or career. I was a student for crying out loud & I'm returning to school for 12 months now in

computers but I've been on my own for almost 5yrs now.

I don't exactly understand it all, but that's some of

the reasons I've come to learn. Plus men are also looked down upon I guess b/c some ppl women especially sometimes

tend to think less of the man if he's still at home. Yet I have other 27yr old friends still at home working &

going to school.

[Pancho1188]

Well simply

because women are hardwired to be attracted to someone who can protect and provide. On all levels, emotional,

materialistic etc.

Why? Well it makes sense that a woman would choose a man that is going to protect and

perpetuate their genes, meaning their offspring. Thus its attractive if the man can show that he can handle himself,

his life and possibly an offpsring and care and provide for it.

This is correct from an evolutionary

psychology perspective. Men need youth and attractiveness (e.g. .70 waist-hip ratio, child-rearing breasts,

healthy-looking overall, symmetry, etc.) to find good child-bearers, and women need strong supporters (i.e. ability

to support oneself, a mate and a child; e.g. physically strong in hunter-gatherer times, money in modern times).



Houses and cars are status symbols. In US society, they're symbols of your ability to support yourself.

Although I live on my own and look like a very eligible bachelor, I take the metro around town. Whoops, my

attractiveness just decreased by 40%. Sure, I save hundreds of dollars per month so I can buy the things I want to

buy or save for the future, but I pay the price of looking like I rely on a public transportation system to get

around. You can tell a city mouse vs. a suburbanite by how bad not having wheels makes you look in their view.

Ironically, I do have a car...just not in the city. It doesn't matter:

"You ain't gotta be rich, but f*ck

that...how we gonna get around on your bus pass...before I put this p*ssy on your mustache?"

--- Can I Get

a...


That's life, I guess.