Valid reasons for using steroids [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

surfs_up

02-23-2005, 07:49 AM

Short

term use of anabolic steroids have a valid purpose. As we age, we lose our capacity to heal from ilness, wounds

close more slowly, fractures don't join as they do in the young. A brief course of steroid supplementation can do

wonders for the older adult who needs to regain normal muscle mass, improve appetite, and strengthen the immune

system. Medical doctors are well aware of these beneficial properties of steroids. Generally they will refuse to

prescribe them, primarily out of fear that they will show up on a DEA watch list of "pill doctors" and have their

license revoked. This was the same misguided

thinking that caused many doctors to refuse to adequately medicate patients for pain, often terrible pain, as the

DEA bureacracy had a model where those who legitimately needed large or long term doses of opoids were, by

definition, persons with drug abuse problems.
In the 1990s there was such an outcry from sufferers of chronic

pain conditions that a new dialog was opened between medicine and enforcement that recognized that pain was not "all

in your head" (even though, technically it is) but was a real, massively debilitating dysfunction than needed

appropriate medicine.
Today there is a similar demonization of steroids, which have been given a bad name

because of a hypercompetitive sports culture imposed on teen agers who are now suffering from an unprecedented level

and range of sports injuries normally only seen in professional competitive athletes. I would submit that the

problem isn't steroids, per se, but the professionalization, and quasi professionalization of youth sports that

puts totally unreasonable demands on youth, often poorly informed youth who have decisions forced on them by

demanding parents who want to vicariously live through their children's achievements or to confrom to group

fantasies about the prowess of youth. The tragedy is that many of these young are essentially having their teen

years stolen from them in an effort to satisfy the narcissistic demands of an older generation. Many teens will turn

to performance enhancers in order to live up to a deranged expectation which they have come to accept as physical

normality.
Prohormones and steroids have become a convenient scapegoat for a culture that doesn't want to

confront its' sins against its' children, pushing them to the point where steroids may be the only option for

gaining social approval at an age when social approval counts for everything.

belgareth

02-23-2005, 07:56 AM

Another valid use of steroids

is to reduce inflamation. Crones desease and pnuemonia are both treated that way.

satyrboy

02-23-2005, 08:57 AM

The steroids used for reducing

of inflammation are catabolic corticosteroids and would not be helpful for strength enhancement. (although they are

occasionally used in competitive athletics because they can mask and injury and allow one to "play hurt")

Anabolic steroids indeed have valid medical uses. I used them nearly daily when I was a burn surgeon.

satyrboy

02-23-2005, 09:03 AM

Incidentally when I stated I

don't have an issue with athletes in non-tested competitions using steroids, let me clarify. Morally I wouldn't

stand in judgement of it, but I still think it's pretty stupid health wise. I wouldn't compete in a non-tested

strength event. (or if I did, it would be just to compare to my own PR's)

MOBLEYC57

02-23-2005, 09:30 PM

Using for health reasons gets my

vote, but still ... they pay in the end, too! :rant: ""I"" THINK it's a lose lose sit-cha-tion. But to gamble with

your life to look big :frustrate Mike Mazzarato (spelling) ... young bodybuilder ... triple bypass surgery ... he's

maybe 34. Some pay sooner than others.

Anywho .... This is Mobley's Steroid Pain tree ... as life developes.

USER

I

USER GETS SICK BECAUSE OF USE

I

I

MOTHER FATHER

I I

SISTER

BROTHER

I I

GIRLFRIEND WIFE

I

I

CHILD CHILDREN

I

I

KIN FRIENDS

I

USER

That's most of the people YOU hurt once you start paying, but in the end, YOU hurt YOU.:POKE:

There's this kid in my gym ... he may be 20, but he's short, and a nice build for his size. I saw him

and his lady in Taco Hell last week, and he admitted that he's tried it. I pointed at his girlfriend, and said to

him, "you're hurting her, and you don't even know it." He looked at me funny, and I think it was because he, like

so many others, think that I use, too. Not! :nono:

Sorry, I always try NOT TO tell people what they should or

shouldn't do, but I do realize that people have a hard time seeing the BIG PICTURE.:run:

Holmes

02-23-2005, 10:16 PM

Mike Mazzarato

(spelling) ... young bodybuilder ... triple bypass surgery ... he's maybe 34. Some pay sooner than others.

Holy shit. That guy had triple bypass surgery?!

I remember him from the Cybergenics

days.

MOBLEYC57

02-23-2005, 10:40 PM

Holy shit.

That guy had triple bypass surgery?!

I remember him from the Cybergenics days.That bees dee

truth ... saw it in a mag this past weekend. If you noticed, and if you kind of look through the Muscle Mags ...

he's (Quadzilla) been out of the light for a bit. I didn't notice it until I read it. :think:

Thing is ... if

these top bodybuilders, with doctors at their sides, are falling apart from use ... what do people think is going to

happen to those that doesn't have their personal docs!? :think:

Tis sad, but true. They just had a discussion

on there being a steroid epidemic in America, on ESPN. :sick:

Wake up people!!!:POKE:

I CARE! :lovestruc

:lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc :lovestruc

surfs_up

02-24-2005, 06:49 AM

Speaking from personal experience. As a middle aged guy, when I contract a nasty respiratory

infection or flu it may take a month before I fully feel like myself again. If it is mid winter, cold weather,

people sneezing and hacking all around me, possibly a couple of flus and assorted respiratory bugs. Even with a flu

shot, Tamiflu, Levaquin, the whole shooting match, a hard winter can leave you weak and run down. No energy, no

appetite, you can feel the strength and muscle mass leaving your body. Flus are more frequent and more intense as

international travel increases, the CDC doesn't have time to respond in coordination with vaccine manufacurers like

Chiron, and we are looking right down the barrel of a shotgun at worse yet. Influenza is right now the 6th leading

cause of death in the USA and probably the #1 cause of acute illness.
A short term course of an anabolic will

dramatically shorten the recovery period and enhance immune response. Assuming good health practices, as much rest

as possible, high fluid intake, you can be back on your feet and mentally clear, feeling productive instead of the

lingering malaise of depression and low motivation in about one week. That would be the equivalent of my health when

I was in my 20s.
Anabolics have an interesting short term blessing and a long term curse. Just as catabolic

steroids; cortisone, prednisone, etc. are powerfully anti-inflammatory, suppressing immune responses, anabolic

steroids are pro-inflammatory. The inflammation response IS what is needed when you have an active infection. As we

age, our immune responses falter for a number of reasons, including the loss of the thymus gland which produces an

important immune system hormone. We can't fight off infections as well, and vaccinations don't "take", our immune

system has less capacity to remember the signature of the invading foreign organism.
Much of cardiovascular

disease in now believed to have a long term inflammation component, and a blood test for this background

inflammation, C-Reactive Protein is now being included in cardiac risk profiles.
Thus, the desired, valuable,

life saving effect of inflammation is inappropriately prolonged in the high dose anabolic abuser, opening the way to

vascular injury.

MOBLEYC57

02-24-2005, 12:58 PM

Speaking from

personal experience. As a middle aged guy, when I contract a nasty respiratory infection or flu it may take a month

before I fully feel like myself again. If it is mid winter, cold weather, people sneezing and hacking all around me,

possibly a couple of flus and assorted respiratory bugs. Even with a flu shot, Tamiflu, Levaquin, the whole shooting

match, a hard winter can leave you weak and run down. No energy, no appetite, you can feel the strength and muscle

mass leaving your body. Flus are more frequent and more intense as international travel increases, the CDC doesn't

have time to respond in coordination with vaccine manufacurers like Chiron, and we are looking right down the barrel

of a shotgun at worse yet. Influenza is right now the 6th leading cause of death in the USA and probably the #1

cause of acute illness.
A short term course of an anabolic will dramatically shorten the recovery period and

enhance immune response. Assuming good health practices, as much rest as possible, high fluid intake, you can be

back on your feet and mentally clear, feeling productive instead of the lingering malaise of depression and low

motivation in about one week. That would be the equivalent of my health when I was in my 20s.
Anabolics have an

interesting short term blessing and a long term curse. Just as catabolic steroids; cortisone, prednisone, etc. are

powerfully anti-inflammatory, suppressing immune responses, anabolic steroids are pro-inflammatory. The inflammation

response IS what is needed when you have an active infection. As we age, our immune responses falter for a number of

reasons, including the loss of the thymus gland which produces an important immune system hormone. We can't fight

off infections as well, and vaccinations don't "take", our immune system has less capacity to remember the

signature of the invading foreign organism.
Much of cardiovascular disease in now believed to have a long term

inflammation component, and a blood test for this background inflammation, C-Reactive Protein is now being included

in cardiac risk profiles.
Thus, the desired, valuable, life saving effect of inflammation is inappropriately

prolonged in the high dose anabolic abuser, opening the way to vascular injury.
Knowledge is POWER

... Thanks Surf! :wave:

For others that don't know ... even short term has a price ticket. Who knows what evil

is already in the body awaiting that power surge to feed off of. :think:

cig3f

02-26-2005, 09:53 AM

1234567890

surfs_up

02-27-2005, 05:23 AM

This is a poor analogy... scuba diving is risky, divers know that it is risky, but many people scuba

dive. Certification involves training so you know what the risk factors are and what you must do to avoid them. Only

a fool would dive without knowing how to calculate decompression. Hop on a plane without allowing sufficient hours

to desaturate your blood from residual nitrogen and you will experience serious decompression sickness while

airborne. This has actually happened to divers whose dive computers malfunctioned and they were too obtuse to double

check their blood gasses against a dive table. Even when the computers gave obviously unrealistic "time to fly"

schedules, like 6 hours when 30 hours would be expected. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often because divers

are pretty well trained in managing risks. The bodybuilding industry hasn't accepted anything close to the level of

responsibility for safety that the scuba diving industry has, as a result the field is littered with casualties. If

scuba divers dove with the same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short

order.

MOBLEYC57

02-27-2005, 01:23 PM

If scuba divers

dove with the same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short order.I

could even understand bodybuilders that MADE money taking the risk ... money does that. Money worked wonders for

Arnold, who had enough of it to have bypass surgery, but for the sake of just walking around huge? :blink:

I agree with you, SUp. :sick:

Holmes

02-27-2005, 01:45 PM

This is a poor

analogy... scuba diving is risky, divers know that it is risky, but many people scuba dive. Certification involves

training so you know what the risk factors are and what you must do to avoid them. Only a fool would dive without

knowing how to calculate decompression. Hop on a plane without allowing sufficient hours to desaturate your blood

from residual nitrogen and you will experience serious decompression sickness while airborne. This has actually

happened to divers whose dive computers malfunctioned and they were too obtuse to double check their blood gasses

against a dive table. Even when the computers gave obviously unrealistic "time to fly" schedules, like 6 hours when

30 hours would be expected. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often because divers are pretty well trained in

managing risks. The bodybuilding industry hasn't accepted anything close to the level of responsibility for safety

that the scuba diving industry has, as a result the field is littered with casualties. If scuba divers dove with the

same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short order.

In short,

curbing juice use can do divers good for one's well-being.

MOBLEYC57

02-27-2005, 01:50 PM

In short, curbing

juice use can do divers good for one's well-being.
<HOLMES>:whip: :lol: :lol: :drunk: :lol: :lol:

surfs_up

02-27-2005, 04:16 PM

if he had bypass surgery... he has his special tent outside of his office to allow him to smoke his

cigars when the nic fit takes him... so, I assume he is either suicidal, hoplessly addicted to nicotine, or never

had bypass surgery. There were rumors in the '90s that Arnold has multiple organ injuries from heavy roid use, was

living out of a clinic in Switzerland where they put him back together.... its the methyl testosterone that gets you

bad right in the liver... however, nobody knows for sure, could have even had a transplant for all we know.

Holmes

02-27-2005, 05:46 PM

so, I assume he is

either suicidal, hoplessly addicted to nicotine, or never had bypass surgery.

No, just

unbesiegbar.

surfs_up

02-28-2005, 03:56 AM

he's a tough cookie... gotta wonder how many body parts he can call his own though... did father kids

unless they were sperm donored... John Travolta told Letterman he's sell his for $20,000,000... we'll see if the

little ones look more italian than austrian... arnold could charm anyone into whacking off into a plastic cup if his

own nuts have shrivelled to the size of rasins... Bob Dylan and Snoop Dog together ? They get twins, one of each ?

Nice normal family....

Holmes

03-06-2005, 10:51 PM

he's a tough cookie... gotta wonder how many body parts he can call his own though... did father

kids unless they were sperm donored... John Travolta told Letterman he's sell his for $20,000,000... we'll see if

the little ones look more italian than austrian... arnold could charm anyone into whacking off into a plastic cup if

his own nuts have shrivelled to the size of rasins... Bob Dylan and Snoop Dog together ? They get twins, one of each

? Nice normal family....

:rofl:

On that note, meet

Greg (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=211hate).

(Excuse me for a second - gotta

vom.)

ManBeast

03-07-2005, 08:41 AM

MOBLEYC57

03-07-2005, 02:23 PM

Valentino is

disgusting.... so is that "klaus" character (i think that's his name) there is a huge difference between steroids

and injecting oil under and into a muscle to make it look better...MB
In his case, and like so many

others, he's making money. For lots, that's a valid reason ... just not me.

I can find many

valid reasons for steroid use... like any drug they are only a problem when ABused...
MB
For the sake of

good health and all the family and friends that gets mentally hurt/involved when things go wrong with the

user/abuser, ManBeast ... I don't THINK you're right, BUT, I SURE HOPE you are.:box:

culturalblonde

03-07-2005, 06:37 PM

MOBLEYC57

03-07-2005, 08:30 PM

My

goodness! The article states he wants to be a freak. Is it a chemical imbalance? And, is it painful to have arms

like that? I see a lot of men at the gym with big arms and either no or hardly any leg muscles. Are arm muscles

something men are more proud of (in terms of weight lifting)?
Yesssssiree, CB! Freak = moe money! Nope,

it's not a chemical imbalance ... he's shooting something in his muscles. I can't remember what, but it's not

steroids. Anyone? Anyone? :blink:

You'd think he'd shoot his forearms, too. He looks sick.

And yes, men

have a tendency to want big arms before legs ... that's how I started out. I understood the balance of having legs

too, and did something about it, and had legs at one time. I think I cursed myself when I often thought and laughed

at those with nice upper bodies with tooth pic legs. Now ... I'm an offical member, and can't do too much about

it. :rant:

ManBeast

03-08-2005, 12:06 PM

I've got symmetry... probably

the second best in my household (4/5 of us lift) but I'm overweight somewhat too... But in terms of "proportional"

lifts, My squat is the best compared to my bench... so I'm happy... it *does* suck sometimes to have to buy

shorts/pants one waist size too big to prevent my cellphone from looking innapropriate in my pockets though....

MB

PHP 87

03-10-2005, 02:02 AM

I'll be turning 45 this month and

have been considering using a presciption Testosterone gel such as Derma-Test 100 Testosterone Gel that I can

purchase from an reputable internet pharmacy.

I don't want to do any of the injectables, and the transdermal

method seems somewhat effective.

What are the pro's and con's?

Thanks.

Product

Description:

Derma-test 100, Testosterone gel is a recently developed testosterone product. It is a clear,

colorless hydro alcoholic gel containing 10% testosterone, and provides continuous trans-dermal delivery of

testosterone for 24 hours following a single application. It provides a non-invasive method of application along

with a consistent level of testosterone absorption. A daily application of Testosterone Gel delivers 100 mg of

testosterone per gram, per day, to the skin's surface. Testosterone gel is designed to release testosterone in a

varying level, over a 24 hours period. This is to mimic the natural (uneven) pattern of a healthy young man, with

peaks and lows throughout the duration producing circulating testosterone concentrations that approximate normal

levels (598 -1043 mg/ml).

This product is quite different from previous testosterone delivery mechanisms such

as patches, which are designed for application on the shaved scrotal area (obviously not a comfortable

practice).

As with all testosterone products it has a strong anabolic activity, with a pronounced androgenic

component. Thus it can provide significant gains in strength and muscle mass, as well a noticeable increase in

libido.

The recommended starting dose of testosterone gel 10% is one gram (to deliver 100 mg of testosterone)

applied once daily (preferably in the morning) to clean, dry, intact skin of the abdomen.

After a few weeks

of daily application, a relatively steady state blood testosterone level is generally attained, typically in the

region of 800mg/ml. Though some doctors prescribe twice-a-day application, many feel that once-a day delivers a more

natural effect. This application occurs first thing in the morning to mimic the body's normal early morning rise in

testosterone. Application to areas of the skin that have a layer of fat under them will slow the release of the

testosterone so that blood levels are maintained longer. It is also recommended that the sites of application around

the body are rotated so that optimal absorption is maintained. The best application areas include the chest, abdomen

or inner thigh.

InternationalPlayboy

03-10-2005, 11:21 AM

:rofl:

On that note, meet Greg (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=211hate).

(Excuse me

for a second - gotta vom.)

I was eating when I clicked on that link! :sick:

satyrboy

03-12-2005, 12:00 PM

seduceme

01-21-2006, 06:56 PM

After some quick

googling
http://www.elitefitness.com/articledata/hbosteroids/HBO-Real-Sports-steroid-special.avi
([

url]http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/[/url] for those who need codec)

Not to mention the non anabolic or

androgenic steroids such as glucocorticoids who besides their already mentioned anti-inflammatory properties also

aid in saving infants lives by developing their lungs so they wont collapse when they are born prematurely.

As for bodybuilders including Arnold, they are walking pharmacies and cannot be parallelled to the average

highschoolfootball abuser. Sideffects of anabolic androgenic steroids are dosedependant.

gabe1970

07-25-2006, 07:58 PM

belgareth

07-25-2006, 08:55 PM

I know this

thread is old and practically dead, but y'all should really stick to posting about pheromones on this forum. How

many of you have USED steroids, and have both the knowledge and experience to back up ANYTHING you've written OR

read about? You're like armchair generals - arrggghhh - I should stop now.
But Damn.
This

particular forum was created to discuss health issues and steroids certanly qualify under that heading. having used

a substance does not qualify you as an expert either. If that were the case I could be qualified to lecture on a

long list of substances.

gabe1970

07-25-2006, 09:30 PM

...having used a substance does not qualify you as an expert either. If that were the case I could

be qualified to lecture on a long list of substances.

IMHO you ARE qualified to lecture on that long list

of substances, Belgareth. It may not make you an expert, or make you a recognized authority, but it makes you well

worth listening to from my standpoint as a non-user. I would expect you to acknowledge that you weren't an expert

and back up your claims with personal experiences and appropriate references. THUS the weight of an experienced

pheromone user on this site is more valuable to me than the words of any scientific article, advertisement, or other

media propoganda. And I'm not operating in a vacuum of information when I do ask questions on this site. Don't

ever presume that I'm putting you or any other experienced user on an altar, as I will definitely research every

fact and opinion anyone posts on this site.
But having said that, I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let

a bunch of ignoramuses give potential life-changing advice to anyone who's contemplating using drugs without

knowing wtf they're talking about.

For the record, if any readers really want to read balanced and informed

opinions and articles about anabolic steroids and other how they are used - both safely and in excess- the forum you

are currently reading is not a safe or suitable place for it. It is 100% completely innappropriate in any way

shape or form. It is irresponsible for anyone to allow this crap to be posted here. Visit

http://www.testosterone.net for more information than you can ever need, and PM or IM me for more

links/info because I'm done with this BS thread.

belgareth

07-26-2006, 04:07 AM

You are the one that

reincarnated a thread that was dead for six months? What's your problem?

You are entitled to an opinion, IMHO.

But I am not qualified to lecture about anything, especially safety or proper use, just because I've done it, no

more than a wino is qualified to lecture on alcoholism prevention or the intricities of liver disease.

We allow

this crap to be posted here because the intent isn't to control, it's to allow the open flow of information and

opinions. Your opinions are welcomed as well, even if somebody comes on and tells us they are crap or that you are

an ignoramus. Anybody would be wise to check with other resources before believing anything on any page of any

forum. We are not censors or your mother and you are responsible for researching what you read anywhere.

That

link you posted may well be a good site but should be regarded the same way, with a mountain of scepticism. Other

good resources would include your physician, the Center for Disease Control and the National Institute of Health.

There are probably good resources in Europe as well.

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 07:55 AM

You are the

one that reincarnated a thread that was dead for six months? What's your problem?

The problem -

not my problem - is that the thread was still visible and accessible for others to view in the future without

a shred of criticism ever having been expressed until I viewed it. The thread might have been "dead", but like any

diseased carcass, it should have been burned and buried.

Perhaps I should have been more polite in

my postings, so I will be a little more polite now, just so that my message is clear

...

http://www.testosterone.net has users that are as well versed on

the "pros and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If

you need advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that

is the place to start. On that forum you can expect to be drilled on your health and training background, as well

as your intentions and goals. If you don't know wtf you're talking about, and don't ask intelligent questions,

you will be called on it, warned off, and/or simply ignored by the more relevant forum members. If you're not

prepared for this, don't go there.

And Belgareth, I'm struggling to be polite here... anyone who

doesn't listen to the words of an alcoholic (or "wino", as you called them) who volunteers to warn people about the

dangers of alcoholism and cirrhosis of the liver based upon their own experiences - might just be dooming themself

to relive those experiences themselves.

belgareth

07-26-2006, 08:07 AM

The

problem - not my problem - is that the thread was still visible and accessible for others to view in the

future without a shred of criticism ever having been expressed until I viewed it. The thread might have been "dead",

but like any diseased carcass, it should have been burned and buried.

Perhaps I should have been more

polite in my postings, but I obviously thought it wasn't appropriate, considering the seriousness of the topic and

how it was not addressed. I will be a little more polite now, just so that my message is clear:

http://www.testosterone.net has users that are as well versed on the

"pros and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If you

need advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that is

the place to start. On that forum you can expect to be drilled on your health and training background, as well as

your intentions and goals. If you don't know wtf you're talking about, and don't ask intelligent questions, you

will be called on it, warned off, and/or simply ignored by the more relevant forum members. If you're not prepared

for this, don't go there.

And Belgareth? This is not about control or censorship, it's about responsibility.

You seem to be more upset about my posting the word "ignoramus" than the idiocy of the thread itself. You know that

you have minors who read this site - and I may have missed it - but until my "reincarnation" and your most recent

posting, I didn't see a single warning or disclaimer anywhere near this thread that stated the posters were not

experts and that their opinions were to be taken with a grain of salt.

And anyone who doesn't listen to the

words of an alcoholic (or "wino", as you called them) who volunteers to warn people about the dangers of alcoholism

and cirrhosis of the liver -- is a frigging moron.

So Belgareth, What's your problem?
My

problem is your attitude. You are always welcome to come here and post. But you can behave in a civil manner when

you do so. I don't think the basics of civilized behavoir need to be explained to each and every person.

No, it

shouldn't have been burned or buried. I hear whining of censorship from one group when we limit topics, I hear

whining from another group when we don't limit topics. Frankly, I don't care if you like it or the other groups

like it, I am doing the job I agreed to do and you can work within the limits of that. If that's a problem, leave.

If it isn't stay. I don't care.

I agree that there are no disclaimers about the expertise of posters here. Are

you so gullible that you believe everything you read? Personally, I am strongly opposed to the use of steroids and

have strong belieffs about anybody using them but do not push my opinions here or elsewhere. It has been established

that an internet forum like this is all opinions, including what you or I say. Take it, and every other internet

forum that way, you'll be a lot better off. As for the teenagers reading this forum, the products you are

discussing are illegal, are they not? I don't know but if they are, or if the methodology of use, such as

injection, is illegal, then the other sites should be banned and burned as well by those standards.

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 01:00 PM

My problem is

your attitude.

I don't know if you realize You're quoting things that I edited out of my post almost

immediately after I posted them. I apologize for writing that, I sanitized it when I realized what a jerk I

sounded like, and I don't even know how you were able to read that. My attitude was about as lame as your attitude

towards steroids. "If it's illegal we shouldn't discuss it" IS a good idea, but it's moot. If you are going to

allow the discussion of something that is illegal and dangerous, some balance and precautions should be presented.

Since they were not presented in the thread I came across, that's what I did. That's what I'm doing now. Did I do

it with an attitude? Hell yes. Then I erased all the angry words that I wrote. I'm sorry that you saw it because

after reading it, it doesn't look like I respect your opinions. But I won't apologize for getting ticked off.

Frankly, I don't care if you like it or the other groups like it, I am doing

the job I agreed to do and you can work within the limits of that. If that's a problem, leave. If it isn't stay. I

don't care.
It sounds like you do care, and that's all well and good - but how am I not "working

within the limits of that"?

Again, my message is:

http://www.testosterone.net (http://www.testosterone.net/) has users that are as well versed on the "pros

and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If you need

advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that is the

place to start.

belgareth

07-26-2006, 01:26 PM

I quoted them when they were

still in your post is why they are still in my quote. Your apology is accepted, we all get ticked off now and then.

You misunderstand my attitude about steroids. My remarks were about your apparent attitude that they shouldn't

be talked about. Personally I feel censorship is wrong in every case. I also do not agree with the laws regarding

steroids or drug use in general. But that's all off the topic. The topic is steroid use. If you have something

useful to say about how to use them or whether a person should or should not use them, please feel free to post an

entire encyclopedia here. But DO NOT ask, demand or expect me or any other moderator to act as censors because you

feel it shouldn't be discussed.

To be clear, I don't use steroids or drugs in general. That's a personal

choice because I don't choose to do that to my body or mind. What you or somebody else chooses to do to your own

body or mind is entirely up to you.

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 02:28 PM

Steroids

are not safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger extreme, growth stunting will

occur due to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce cancer and heart disease due to

a naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known to cause a decrease in HDL and

hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the hypothalamus and pituitary and

testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone who's liver developed a tumor

the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo

open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage. Just my 2 cents.

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 02:43 PM

Steroids are not safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger

extreme, growth stunting will occur due to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce

cancer and heart disease due to a naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known

to cause a decrease in HDL and hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the

hypothalamus and pituitary and testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone

who's liver developed a tumor the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming

bodybuilder no more, had to undergo open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage.

Just my 2 cents.:goodpost:

I'm tapping out on this thread while I still can.

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 02:43 PM

I'll be turning 45 this month and have been considering using a presciption

Testosterone gel such as Derma-Test 100 Testosterone Gel that I can purchase from an reputable internet pharmacy.

I don't want to do any of the injectables, and the transdermal method seems somewhat effective.

What are the

pro's and con's?

Thanks.

Product Description:

Derma-test 100, Testosterone gel is a recently developed

testosterone product. It is a clear, colorless hydro alcoholic gel containing 10% testosterone, and provides

continuous trans-dermal delivery of testosterone for 24 hours following a single application. It provides a

non-invasive method of application along with a consistent level of testosterone absorption. A daily application of

Testosterone Gel delivers 100 mg of testosterone per gram, per day, to the skin's surface. Testosterone gel is

designed to release testosterone in a varying level, over a 24 hours period. This is to mimic the natural (uneven)

pattern of a healthy young man, with peaks and lows throughout the duration producing circulating testosterone

concentrations that approximate normal levels (598 -1043 mg/ml).

This product is quite different from previous

testosterone delivery mechanisms such as patches, which are designed for application on the shaved scrotal area

(obviously not a comfortable practice).

As with all testosterone products it has a strong anabolic activity,

with a pronounced androgenic component. Thus it can provide significant gains in strength and muscle mass, as well a

noticeable increase in libido.

The recommended starting dose of testosterone gel 10% is one gram (to deliver 100

mg of testosterone) applied once daily (preferably in the morning) to clean, dry, intact skin of the abdomen.

After a few weeks of daily application, a relatively steady state blood testosterone level is generally attained,

typically in the region of 800mg/ml. Though some doctors prescribe twice-a-day application, many feel that once-a

day delivers a more natural effect. This application occurs first thing in the morning to mimic the body's normal

early morning rise in testosterone. Application to areas of the skin that have a layer of fat under them will slow

the release of the testosterone so that blood levels are maintained longer. It is also recommended that the sites of

application around the body are rotated so that optimal absorption is maintained. The best application areas include

the chest, abdomen or inner thigh.

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will

ultimately lead to a lowered production of your natural test. When your hypothalamus senses that you have synthetic

test in your blood serum, it'll signal your pituitary to lower production of leutenizing hormone (LH) which will

then signal your testicls to produce less natural testosterone. One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds

that will ENHANCE natural test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat)
and some DHEA

(25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test production.

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 02:52 PM

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... Try taking ...some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test

production.

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do

not. And the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to

take 200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the

way out the door and will have to post more details later.

Holmes

07-26-2006, 03:06 PM

Steroids are not

safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger extreme, growth stunting will occur due

to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce cancer and heart disease due to a

naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known to cause a decrease in HDL and

hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the hypothalamus and pituitary and

testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone who's liver developed a tumor

the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo

open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage. Just my 2 cents.

I

forgot about Mike "Quadzilla" Matarazzo. Wasn't he the guy who was pushing Cybergenics ten years ago?

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 06:42 PM

Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo open heart surgery just recently

at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage.

His comparably mild, supposedly sporadic use of steroids

were a significant factor, but they were arguably not the deciding one. the man was on Lipitor. He had

negative stress tests. His biannual blood tests came back CLEAN. But not only did he have high cholesterol (which is

not necessarily diet dependant, and...) The man used to eat 5 ½ pounds of

red meat daily.

With a predisposition for high

cholesterol, you can't expect to eat a whole cow every week and not have an MI. Duh! I say it again

"Duh!"

(And I thought he was 39.)

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 06:58 PM

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds that will ENHANCE natural

test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat) and some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance

natural test production.
For males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is

two-fold. The primary problem is that your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising

levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of

progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes

you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to be able to breastfeed? :lol: Well allrighty then... NOW if you

want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by
itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may

possibly regulate the conversion of DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess

though. The other supplements mentioned in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also

spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean

towards these substances as opposed to using DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why?

Let me first show you the one reason why
I would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine

January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"

DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it

all. But here's the rest of the article, anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of

replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex

hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed

at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex

hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the

amounts of each hormone within your body is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN,

if you're REALLY worried about breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.

---
See

http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_r

estoration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on

http://www.testosterone.net or

http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend

to be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's

and other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that

happens while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents

and mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dh

ea.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and

hormone levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked.

It's been awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and

then realized that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most

people think it works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there

(just like any other medicinal substance) Read more about it at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris

Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=

pubmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is

called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha

Male.
Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100%

convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more

about Alpha male at http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 07:06 PM

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do not. And

the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to take

200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the way out

the door and will have to post more details later.

Well, no wonder you had sore nipples! :hammer: 200mg

of DHEA is way too much for someone in their 20's - if you had kept it up you would have ended up with bitch tits

from all the conversion of excess test to estrogen and a bald head from conversion to DHT, not to mention excess

bodyweight and water retention from the excess estrogen.

Yes, DHEA is also known as the master precursor hormone

because your body will utilize it to create other hormones as necessary.

The solution is simple: If you want to

keep the estrogen conversion down or eliminate it altogether from high doses of DHEA, you need to also take an

anti-aromatase such as Novedex XT or 17-oxo Nolone or 6 -oxo and a hoot more that are on the market. Choices are

many. Try reading up bodybuilding supplement forums - there's a lot of good info and personal experiences out there

regarding PCT (post cycle therapy) for people doing steroids or prohormones.

To prevent DHT conversion which

leads to hairloss you can also add Saw Palmetto + Pumpkin Seed extract + FoTi (He Shou Wu).

To make use of all

the extra test in blood serum, one simple herb you can use is Avena Saitva (Green Oats) - it binds with SHBG

(sex-hormone binding globulins) and allows your body to make use of the excess serum testosterone.

There's alot

more that can be learned from Life Extension and other health related magazines as well as the myriads of websites.

I'm no expert, but I have to keep up to date because I manage a supplement store and am working toward a

Naturopathic Doctor's degree.:drunk:

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 07:06 PM

Okay, NOW I'm tapping out on

this topic. I won't be revisiting the health section of this site because it's an apparent open-cage-fight. IM

or PM me if you want my personal input. And it looks like y'all will have to copy and paste the links from my

previous post - the formatting is screwy. Sorry about that.
later.

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 07:29 PM

For

males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is two-fold. The primary problem is that

your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other

hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones

are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to

be able to breastfeed? :lol: Well allrighty then... NOW if you want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by

itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may possibly regulate the conversion of

DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess though. The other supplements mentioned

in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma

longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean towards these substances as opposed to using

DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why? Let me first show you the one reason why
I

would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"

DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it all. But here's the rest of the article,

anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging

process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen,

progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the

deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these

hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the amounts of each hormone within your body

is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN, if you're REALLY worried about

breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.
---
See

http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_res

toration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on

http://www.testosterone.net or

http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend to

be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's and

other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that happens

while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents and

mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dhea

.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and hormone

levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked. It's been

awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and then realized

that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most people think it

works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there (just like any other

medicinal substance) Read more about it at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris

Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=pu

bmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male.

Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great

reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100% convincing or

applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more about Alpha male

at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Good post!:box: Looks like you did your homwork.

gabe1970

07-26-2006, 07:44 PM

Good

post!:box: Looks like you did your homwork.

Thanks - my grandfather is a naturopath and an herbalist.

I've learned quite a bit from him. PreMed, Biochem, and my chemistry minor also help -- that and being a PubMed

Addict.

I'm doen with this thread! No more! No more, I say!!

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 09:46 PM

Gabe. Ahh, no

wonder. I knew there had to be some type of nutritional or medical background the way you were spitting out

info...

BizmanJoe

07-26-2006, 11:19 PM

BTW,

if you want to know your testosterone levels discreetly, purchase a kit called

AndroTest. It's around $25 and you'll know at a glance where your hormones are (especially if you're coming off

of a roid or prohormone cycle). Just my 2 cents...

tounge

07-28-2006, 04:16 PM

Gabe and Biz, what's your opinion

of Pregnenolone?

gabe1970

07-28-2006, 05:05 PM

I wouldn't take it myself.

Same problem as with DHEA.

It creates an unpredictable elevation of ALL hormones including estrogen, and the

one you have to worry about the most is progesterone. For some reason hormonal precursors like DHEA and

Pregnenolone have effects that are keyed to where they are produced in the body, and an exogenuous source like an

ingested or injected "supplement" throws the whole cascade off balance. You want something that stimulates your

body to ramp up production itself, or you need to carefully balance a "stack" of many supplements or drugs, like

bodybuilders attempt to do by pairing and cycling steroids with anti-estrogens and liver protectants.

I'd

stick with herbal supplements by Biotest as found at http://www.testosterone.net , but Bizman is the best

one to ask for other brands and other sources. My knowledge and expertise is much more
focused/limited than his,

so hopefully he can give you other alternatives, and I'm betting he will recommend a DHEA variant called keto-7

--which I know next to nothing about.

BizmanJoe

07-28-2006, 05:07 PM

Gabe and Biz, what's your opinion of Pregnenolone?

Its another precursor or

"mother" hormone as some in the industry call it. It's formed from cholesterol as part of steroidogenesis (1st

step, actually) and is a precurser to many hormones including DHEA. You'll find plenty of info on it on the web.

Once again, studies show low doses of supplementation can be beneficial for those past their prime. In larger

doses, it can throw a wrench into your body's hormonal axis as gabe describes.

Don't meddle with hormones

unless you know what you're doing. My 2 cents...

MOBLEYC57

09-10-2006, 09:58 AM

The supplement

i will be taking is called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male. Its a shotgun combination of the above listed herbs (plus one

more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but

the research isn't 100% convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the company in any way,

but you can read more about Alpha male at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Gabe, since we've/I've heard nothing from you on ALPHA MALE .... STUD or DUD? :blink:

surfs_up

09-10-2006, 10:57 AM

LEF (life extension foundation) offers the most accessible, quality controlled

private choice testing.... and so who is surprised that the "health care" industry has been working overtime, and

laughably without success, to shut them down.

Regardless of what you're stuffing your pipes with, obtain the

basic battery of tests... they do fantastic hormone workups...

Excellent chioice of blood lipid studies as

well...

One thing nobody discusses, my own doc thought I was nuts UNTIL we ran the test... is red blood

cell magnesium .... not, I repeat, not the cheaper, and now known to be useless serum magnesium

test... American diets tend to magnesium deficiency, which must be in the correct ratio with phosphorus and

calcium.... it the Ca-Mg-P triangle is out of balance, many thing may appear that are hard to diagnose... muscle

soreness (the had me on strong muscle relaxers that made me really spaced out and depressed), poor concentration,

low energy....

They also now know that there are a wide range of inflammation triggers that interact with the

blood lipids to cause disease, which is why some folks with "bad numbers" do OK, and some folks with "good numbers"

drop dead...

Some of these factors are C Reactive Protein, Homocysteine, Fibrinogen... and a wide range of

cytokines (fever triggering and tissue swelling factors) like TNF-alpha...

You NEED to look at the whole

picture, hormone chemisty is one important part of the whole, but there are many other elements too... low grade

chronic inflammation may be one of the central components in aging and tissue failue, for example a recent study has

shown that diseased artery tissue appears to be highly aged at a microscopic level, you can have 30 year old skin

but 70 year old arteries.... meaning the arterial lining DNA has worn down to the level of a 70 year old...

The #1 culprit here so far as we know is "toxic dietary fat" that has been altered by heat and oxidation...

the worst known source of these fat-toxins is the ordinary french fry potato stick... many crispy fried chips,

comfort foods, deep fried battered meats, and the like present a serious health risk.... the maximum combination for

playing Russian Roulette would be to use anabolics in combination with a fast food diet...