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DeMoKiLL
12-13-2004, 07:11 PM
Ok

I was saying things to be cocky and funny but I went a little too far and became to her a "jerk". Is it bad when a

girl calls you a jerk? Is it better then being too nice? Would apologizing totally ruin everything between us?

DeMoKiLL
12-13-2004, 07:14 PM
everything was said online

bizraterx
12-13-2004, 07:57 PM
in what context did she say

jerk?....most likely its nothing and i wouldnt worry about it

DeMoKiLL
12-13-2004, 08:12 PM
screw you, your being a total

jerk

j5fakt0r
12-13-2004, 08:59 PM
Is there any way you can come

up with an excuse to make up for it? Like you were having a bad day or you were just feeling crappy or something?

Nothing is definate to the point that somebody will totally hate you, unless you went REALLY far.... how far did

you go?

BIONIC MAN
12-13-2004, 09:09 PM
screw you,

your being a total jerk probably depends on what broke the camels back . women

are usually more forgiving then men though we get ugly :rant: what did you say to her? :think: compliments and

flowers work. one long stem rose to my former gf now wife got me happy everytime.:kiss:

TRock
12-13-2004, 09:11 PM
Ok I was saying

things to be cocky and funny but I went a little too far and became to her a "jerk". Is it bad when a girl calls you

a jerk? Is it better then being too nice? Would apologizing totally ruin everything between us?don't worry

about what see thinks, that is not the goal. the goal is to create attraction, she doesn't necessarily have to like

you to be attracted to you. if you don't think that's the true, read some women's magazine about how they hook up

with guys they hate. worrying about what she thinks is also seeking approval, another no no. apologizing is also

seeking her approval. my opinion is you'll pull more girls by being too cocky than being nice.

when you do

something, think about these questions. are you leading? are you doing things on your own terms? are you seeking her

approval/validation? are you qualifying to her? the answer to the 1st 2 should be yes and the answer to the last 2

should be no.

DeMoKiLL
12-13-2004, 09:15 PM
Well idk, I just kept saying

stuff like I was going to print the convo out and pass it around then what really got her is when I called her ugly.

From what i've heard and read from people is its ok if she calls you a complete asshole. Oh well at school

tommorrow ill just play it off like it was nothing, and see her reaction.

DeMoKiLL
12-13-2004, 09:16 PM
don't worry about

what see thinks, that is not the goal. the goal is to create attraction, she doesn't necessarily have to like you

to be attracted to you. if you don't think that's the true, read some women's magazine about how they hook up

with guys they hate. worrying about what she thinks is also seeking approval, another no no. apologizing is also

seeking her approval. my opinion is you'll pull more girls by being too cocky than being nice.

when you do

something, think about these questions. are you leading? are you doing things on your own terms? are you seeking her

approval/validation? are you qualifying to her? the answer to the 1st 2 should be yes and the answer to the last 3

should be no. So your saying that its ok to be a jerk to her near the point her hating me, as in that will

get her to like me more?

TRock
12-13-2004, 09:18 PM
ugly is tough man. the girl should

be gorgeous and understand that you are c&f for a comment like that. but you're stuck, don't back down.

TRock
12-13-2004, 09:22 PM
So your saying

that its ok to be a jerk to her near the point her hating me, as in that will get her to like me more?i'm

not saying do it on purpose, but if you go overboard don't back down but than don't keep adding to the fire.

aiming for a girl to hate you is not what c&f. i meant it in the context she likes you as a nice guys vs hates

you.

another thing there's 4 ways to be c&f.
1) c&f about your self.
refering to yourself in the 2nd and 3rd

person
basically being self absorb

2)c&f about her
basically giving her a hard time

3)c&f about everything

else besides the 2 of ya'll
cracking on somebody that's dressed bad

4)role reversal
taking a woman's frame

and putting a man's frame on her
accuse her of being needy, a loser, weird etc
stuff that women say about guys



there's more examples that's all i can think of offf the top of my head.

eric_pelletier_tw
12-13-2004, 09:25 PM
my 2 cents: dont back

down but make it like nothing if she talks about it just say its a joke & make another one less provocative [to make

her forget the first one...]

TRock
12-13-2004, 09:31 PM
turn it

funny...
yeah accuse her of having no sense of humor, make it look like she's weird for not understanding

it's a joke

Silver
12-13-2004, 10:27 PM
Very bad idea.

Sorry guys,

but brushing it off like it's nothing is just about the worst thing you can do here.

Teasing a girl is one

thing. Being cocky is one thing. Calling her ugly and saying you'll pass around the conversation is unmitigated

jackass behaviour. If I were this girl, I'd be hard pressed to EVER talk to you again.

If you're being "cocky

and funny" with the intention of flirting, you're ok in teasing her about being too quiet, too loud, being a tease,

doing somethng embarresing, etc. It's ok to tease her about behaviour. NEVER tease a girl about something she

can't change, like how pretty she is, how tall or short she is, her race, or anything. BAD BAD IDEA. And never

tease about violating her trust. Some girls do go for the bad boys, but that's mostly because we feel special when

they treat everyone like crap and treat us well, or we think they're sexy in that attitude. But a violation of

trust just instantly puts you in the undateable loser catagory, and sexiness is about 90% mental. You just made a

huge mistake with this girl, HUGE.

If you want to recover a friendship, let alone anything remotely romantic

APOLOGIZE IMMEDIATELY AND PROFUSELY. Frankly, if I were this girl and we were friends before, I'd allow you to

apologise and be friends with you, but I would probably consider you undateable for all time until you grow up. If

I didn't know you very well before, I'd say it's alright but stop being friends with you, only saying cursory

hellos in the halls and so forth. But who knows, everyone's different.

But one thing's for sure...if you

don't apologize very well and very soon, you can kiss this girl goodbye.

Best of luck,
~Silver

Holmes
12-13-2004, 11:10 PM
Well idk, I just

kept saying stuff like I was going to print the convo out and pass it around then what really got her is when I

called her ugly.

Need we even say that calling a woman "ugly" is NOT akin to "creating

attraction"?

Consider yourself blessed if you ever have a chance with her again.

Snoopy
12-14-2004, 12:13 AM
Agree with Silver. There's a

thin red line with teasing, and calling her ugly is just more of a downright insult. Remember, you don't have to be

a jerk to be cocky and funny. You can be totally nice and still be cocky and funny and playful, I think girls like

that. Playful means teasing, not insulting.

Demo it's best to not try and make a bad rep for yourself, since

your still in highschool word spreads fast (well, at least it did in the hs I was from), so if you appear as a jerk

to one girl, she'll probably tell her friends and you've just blown your chances with them too. Try to make up for

it, stop trying to be so c&f this, c&f that, you can still get a girl without being too c&f. Start slow with the

stuff, it's best to be under c&f than TOO much c&f, the latter will make you seem like a downright JERK.

SirAngel
12-14-2004, 12:53 AM
Well..it´s supposed to be cocky

AND FUNNY and i think you should turn the cocky down a nodge an concebtrate on being funny...it takes some skill

though :twisted:

Online is a handycap anyway because you can´t use your bodylanguage and voice tone..and that is

the most important part. And is you take it to far than you can give her a smirk or say "come on...I´m just teasing"

afterwards acuse her of having no humor :twisted: . Or when you meet her be realy nice to a girl with your body and

stroke her and at the same time tell her she hasn´t earned it and she´s being a pain in the a..tonight and you

should charge her for being like that...but it´s all in how you say it...in a fun and playful way.
Well that was my

two cents:run:

a.k.a.
12-14-2004, 08:15 AM
Demokill,
Sounds to me like

you don’t much care for this girl. Otherwise why would you say such things? Even if you are a jerk.

I

used to get in conversations with this lady that always frustrated me by trying to push her extreme, uninformed

opinions on me. I knew the only reason I bothered to talk with her was her cute looks and flirty mannerisms. Deep

down inside, I always felt she was selfish and stupid. But I’d always find myself stuck in these uncomfortable

conversations just the same. At some point I almost always clammed up and waited for a good moment to politely

excuse myself. Often leaving the coffee shop long before I intended to.
One day she caught on and asked,”Why

do you always act like you want to run away? I thought you liked me.”
That’s when I broke character and

said something that completely surprised me (not to mention the girl):
“I do like you. But I’d probably

like you better if you’d just shut up and blow me.”

Of course I didn’t get the BJ, but at least now we

can exchange polite smiles and share the same public space without making each other uncomfortable. Sometimes

honesty really is the best policy. Especially when it comes to being honest with yourself.

I think you

should just move on to some girl that you can really respect.

Mungojerry
12-14-2004, 09:26 AM
jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjdddddddddddd

phersurf
12-14-2004, 09:52 AM
YOu should never tease about

something physical about her. Only things like her cloths, attitude, the way she walks, her expression,

etc.

It depends how she calls you a jerk (which is hard to know online). If she says, "oh, you're such a

jerk!". And maybe gives you a little smile or laughs, you've hit the right target. Women don't usually call

someone a jerk unless there's some interest, they will just ignore you.

Don't appologize! If she really

thinks you're a jerk, appologizing probably won't help. If she thinks you're a "jerk", appologizing will make put

you into the "wussy" zone.

Silver
12-14-2004, 10:16 AM
To be completely frank, you guys

are full of crap. You're too concerned with protecting your own precious masculinity that you become total

jerks.

Apologizing does not make you wussy. Apologizing for everything can make you tiresome, but apologies,

even when they are not necessary, are really sweet. In fact, I don't think there's anything sweeter than a guy

saying "i didn't know that this would offend you, but I'm sorry anyway," although that doesn't apply in this case

since anyone should know that calling a girl ugly is a no-no. I want a guy who is secure enough in his own

masculinity that he can be sympathetic, sentimental, and apologetic. That false bravado self-aggrandizing "I won't

apologize ever even though I know I was wrong TO CALL HER UGLY" is a clear sign of an insecure wuss trying to

overcompensate. Trust me, it's an instant turn-off.

Women admire men who are willing to admit when they are

wrong. This doesn't make you weak, this makes you adaptable, flexible, willing to learn, grow, and mature.

Admitting that you're wrong is one of the hardest and strongest things that anyone, man or woman, can do.

As

for calling her ugly, the only example in which I could possibly IMAGINE that being acceptable is if 1) she's drop

dead gorgeous 2) she knows it, and therefore is not at all insecure 3) you've known her for a long time, AND 4),

you follow it up immediately with a compliment, ie "I'm just kidding, you know I think you're gorgeous". Don't

say she doesn't have a sense of humor, that's just piling on another insult.

Grow up ,guys. Be men, not boys,

and real men always are secure enough to admit it when they are wrong.

~Silver

bjf
12-14-2004, 10:42 AM
Growing up takes years, and sometimes

even that's not enough.

phersurf
12-14-2004, 10:57 AM
Your right.

If she was

trully insulted, you should appologize.

It all depends on how she said you were a jerk. I've said some

pretty outragious things to women and they give me one of those, "Oh you're such a jerk" with a smile and ususally

a hit in the shoulder. If this is the attitude she said it with, you've got some sexual tension going with her and

an appology in that case will ruin it.

Gegogi
12-14-2004, 10:58 AM
When going too far with

cocky funny, i've found the best way to get round it is to just say flatly "Cummon you know I was only joking" or

if i've known the girl a bit longer "Look, you've known me long enough to know what my sense of humour is like, I

was only joking"

This is a useless routine and won't save your arse after making a mean or

insensitive remark. In other words, if you say something mean and try to retract it with the "I was only joking

excuse," it ain't gonna fly. You'll be forever remembered as a dickless moron. An apology helps but won't be

taken seriously if you continue acting the same way.

belgareth
12-14-2004, 11:03 AM
To be completely

frank, you guys are full of crap. You're too concerned with protecting your own precious masculinity that you

become total jerks.

Women admire men who are willing to admit when they are wrong. This doesn't make you weak,

this makes you adaptable, flexible, willing to learn, grow, and mature. Admitting that you're wrong is one of the

hardest and strongest things that anyone, man or woman, can do.

Grow up ,guys. Be men, not boys, and real men

always are secure enough to admit it when they are wrong.

~Silver
Excellent! Concise and to the point.

:rofl:

As I've said before, it amazes me that so many guys see a woman's opinion about how a woman feels or

thinks about something they have to argue with her. Listen up guys, she knows what she is talking about.

Mungojerry
12-14-2004, 11:08 AM
dssssssssssddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

TRock
12-14-2004, 11:15 AM
what women say they want and what

creates attraction are 2 different things. i'm cocky, arrogant, and self absorbed all the things women say they

hate. according to women nobody should be attracted to me, but about half the girls i meet through social circles

are attracted to me.

phersurf
12-14-2004, 11:25 AM
As

I've said before, it amazes me that so many guys see a woman's opinion about how a woman feels or thinks about

something they have to argue with her. Listen up guys, she knows what she is talking about.


I

totally disagree!

I listened to women about how to deal with women for years and it got me more dates with

my hand than I care to admit to (I'm sure some of you can relate).

I was a "sweet, sensitive guy that showed

my feelings". I did nice things for women, etc. all on the advice of women. It was a great way of aquiring many

woman friends that would come to me when their "jerk" boyfriends mistreated them. If I had a dollar for everytime I

heard "I wish I could meet a nice guy, like you", I'd be a rich man!

belgareth
12-14-2004, 11:38 AM
Whatever works for you. I'm

polite, quiet, have a good sense of humor, am independent and self assured. Yes, I have many female friends along

with a solid relationship with a pretty, bright woman with a great attitude. I get hits fairly often, got another

good one this morning from a nice looking 35-ish lady banker.

My advice isn't to be what you keep calling a

nice guy, it's to treat women well while retaining your independence. I think that is close to what Silver is

saying also. I've also got up and walked away from women who want to play games. I don't play them and will not

deal with a woman who does.

But, like I said, whatever works for you. My way has worked well for me for many

years.

Silver
12-14-2004, 11:46 AM
Let me define a few terms for the

uninitiated. You guys keep throwing the words cocky, confident, arrogant and self-absorbed as if they all mean the

same thing. They don't.

Confident is thinking you're the shit.
Cocky is acting like you're the

shit.
Arrogant is acting like you're shit's hotter than everyone else's shit, and that you're so much better

than everyone else.
Self-absorbed is talking about nothing but how you're the shit.

All women love confident

men, hands down. Some women like there men a little cocky as well. I for one, like men who are very confident and

a little to a lot cocky, depending of if they've actually earned the right to be cocky by actually BEING the shit.

Very few women enjoy arrogant men, because they just make us feel worse about ourselves. Similarly, very few women

like self-absorbed men, and usually these are just the quite ones who are relieved someone will keep talking.



However, demo, you called her ugly, and that makes you, in her eyes and now in the eyes of all her friends, a

bonafide jerk. And no one, and I mean NO ONE likes a jerk. You can be a jerk to other people, sometimes, but if

you're a jerk to her you are history.

And as a response to Trock and Pherosurf, wow you guys sound just a tad

bitter. You're partially right, but you just don't recognize what's really going on. Women know what they want,

almost always, but sometimes they have a hard time recognizing it in people. These girls dating jerks are usually

searching for confident, slightly cocky guys, and mistook the jerkish arrogance of some guys for it. If all they

want are jerks, they why do they dump these guys? Why do they get mad when they act like jerks? It's because

they've realized that they were mistaken. They might stay with a guy to try to change him, but they're not

staying because they want a jerk. Yes, we don't like pussies, and yes, sometimes we snub the "sweet sensitive

guys", but it's usually because they lack confidence. Show them a guy who's confident and sweet at the same time

and they'll take that over an arrogant SOB any day.

My call for maturity doesn't just apply to guys. There

are many girls today that just need to grow up as well and recognize the difference between confidence and

arrogance. But a real woman knows the difference. Maybe acting like a bastard will get you more dates. Maybe

itwill get you more one-night -stands. But if you're looking for a lasting connection with someone special, then

you better shape up and grow up.

Oh and pherosurf? If the thing you're most concerned about is not that you h

aven't found a nice woman as a companion and girlfriend, but rather that you haven't gotten laid enough, then

it's no wonder that you end up with dates with your hand. We women HATE that.

Hope this helps,
~Silver

phersurf
12-14-2004, 11:48 AM
I'll bet our ways aren't too

far apart.

I'm not a jerk. I'm also not a "nice guy", I'm a good guy.

Your first paragraph desribes

me pretty closely.

Gegogi
12-14-2004, 11:56 AM
"I was a "sweet, sensitive

guy that showed my feelings". I did nice things for women, etc. all on the advice of women. It was a great way of

aquiring many woman friends that would come to me when their "jerk" boyfriends mistreated them. If I had a dollar

for everytime I heard "I wish I could meet a nice guy, like you", I'd be a rich man!"

Hmm, I've had

nearly parallel experiences, except for the end result. Heck I even helped them shop for shoes (new shoes are a

great comfort to most women). However, I often ended up in the sack after comforting female friends. Of course it

was fun, but it complicated or put a damper on our friendship, especially since they usually intended to return to

their BF/hubby and merely needed a comfort lay and a little revenge. I actually felt used but got over it fast.

After all, what are friends for? :kiss:

phersurf
12-14-2004, 11:59 AM
Let me define a

few terms for the uninitiated. You guys keep throwing the words cocky, confident, arrogant and self-absorbed as if

they all mean the same thing. They don't.

Confident is thinking you're the shit.
Cocky is acting like

you're the shit.
Arrogant is acting like you're shit's hotter than everyone else's shit, and that you're so

much better than everyone else.
Self-absorbed is talking about nothing but how you're the shit.

All

women love confident men, hands down. Some women like there men a little cocky as well. I for one, like men who

are very confident and a little to a lot cocky, depending of if they've actually earned the right to be cocky by

actually BEING the shit. Very few women enjoy arrogant men, because they just make us feel worse about ourselves.

Similarly, very few women like self-absorbed men, and usually these are just the quite ones who are relieved someone

will keep talking.

However, demo, you called her ugly, and that makes you, in her eyes and now in the eyes

of all her friends, a bonafide jerk. And no one, and I mean NO ONE likes a jerk. You can be a jerk to other

people, sometimes, but if you're a jerk to her you are history.

And as a response to Trock and Pherosurf,

wow you guys sound just a tad bitter. You're partially right, but you just don't recognize what's really going

on. Women know what they want, almost always, but sometimes they have a hard time recognizing it in people. These

girls dating jerks are usually searching for confident, slightly cocky guys, and mistook the jerkish arrogance of

some guys for it. If all they want are jerks, they why do they dump these guys? Why do they get mad when they act

like jerks? It's because they've realized that they were mistaken. They might stay with a guy to try to change

him, but they're not staying because they want a jerk. Yes, we don't like pussies, and yes, sometimes we snub the

"sweet sensitive guys", but it's usually because they lack confidence. Show them a guy who's confident and sweet

at the same time and they'll take that over an arrogant SOB any day.

My call for maturity doesn't just

apply to guys. There are many girls today that just need to grow up as well and recognize the difference between

confidence and arrogance. But a real woman knows the difference. Maybe acting like a bastard will get you more

dates. Maybe itwill get you more one-night -stands. But if you're looking for a lasting connection with someone

special, then you better shape up and grow up.

Oh and pherosurf? If the thing you're most concerned about

is not that you h aven't found a nice woman as a companion and girlfriend, but rather that you haven't gotten laid

enough, then it's no wonder that you end up with dates with your hand. We women HATE that.

Hope this

helps,
~Silver

I was totally agreeing with you until the last paragraph!

Having a little

problem with reading comprehension, huh? :)

The period of my life whe I wasn't getting laid was when I was

looking for a great woman and companion (I'm still looking for a great woman and companion). The difference is now

I have more control on where my relationaships are going.

All men, let me repeat that, ALL MEN, are looking

to get laid first. Then if the woman ends up to be cool and seems to be someone we can get alomg with, then we

continue the relationship. That's the way men's brains work.

If a man asks you out, it's not because he

wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants to get into your pants.

My attitude now is I

could care less if I get laid by any specific woman. I'm the one doing the choosing. I can walk away from any

woman.

Indigo
12-14-2004, 12:31 PM
Let me define a few

terms for the uninitiated. You guys keep throwing the words cocky, confident, arrogant and self-absorbed as if they

all mean the same thing. They don't.

Confident is thinking you're the shit.
Cocky is acting like you're the

shit.
Arrogant is acting like you're shit's hotter than everyone else's shit, and that you're so much better

than everyone else.
Self-absorbed is talking about nothing but how you're the shit.


:D :D :D :D :D


You are getting more and more sympatiko !!!

Would be great if more woman would chare your attitude and

perception!
Hard to believe you are just over 19! :thumbsup:

CptKipling
12-14-2004, 01:09 PM
Well idk, I

just kept saying stuff like I was going to print the convo out and pass it around then what really got her is when I

called her ugly. From what i've heard and read from people is its ok if she calls you a complete asshole. Oh well

at school tommorrow ill just play it off like it was nothing, and see her reaction.
Just what exactly

possed you to call her ugly? I know all about c&f, but nowhere is anyone saying you have to make a person feel

small. You could imply that you're calling her ugly in a jokey way ("c'mon love, not exactly a bowl of fruit are

we!" when you're addressing something completely none personal and with a wry grin), but this time I think she

thought you meant it.

Say you didn't mean it like that, however it is you did it. I agree with Silver, just

don't gush when you apologise or it be obvious it was an act and she will think you are a loser as well.

Gegogi
12-14-2004, 01:30 PM
"If a man asks you out,

it's not because he wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants to get into your pants."


Hmm, although this is true for many guys, especially younger ones, there are many other reasons to ask a woman

out. I've asked women out due to work, common interests, friendship, etc. Nookie was far from my mind. Of course,

personality and common interests can and did lead to attraction and eventual amourous activity. Usually if my main

movivation is scoring nookie the relationship dies quickly due to quickly eroding interest on my part. To me the

most attractive part of a woman, and the only thing that holds my attention, is her personality and lifestyle, not

getting into her pants (although that's a nice side benefit).

DeMoKiLL
12-14-2004, 02:00 PM
Ill just call her and tell her

that I was just playing around and I didn't really mean that you were ugly it was a joke. Then she will respond and

ill tell her more. And nookie isn't even in my mind with this girl, thats not what im after. I've just tried being

a nice guy and didn't work out at all just backfired in my face. So I went to the opposite extreme and acted like a

jerk to see if it would work. Ill call her up then post what happens.

belgareth
12-14-2004, 02:00 PM
I'll bet our

ways aren't too far apart.

I'm not a jerk. I'm also not a "nice guy", I'm a good guy.

Your first

paragraph desribes me pretty closely.I learned much of what I know about dealing with women from women. Some

of it I learned from my Dad who would have laughed at these guys who think you need to play all these attitude

games. Gegogi makes some good points about dating solely to get laid. That approach got me less sex than anything

short of staying at home. Spend time with women to enjoy their company. That does mean that you need to date women

with more personality than just a 'D' cup though. :) If she can't hold up her end of a conversation or doesn't

like to laugh and enjoy herself instead of just hanging out in a bar, I want nothing to do with her. Even under the

best of circumstances you can only spend so much time in bed, there has to be much more to a relationship than sex,

although the sex part is important too.

DeMoKiLL
12-14-2004, 02:19 PM
I just called her and she

sounded ok, not really mad, I only talked for like 5 minutes and im going to talk to her at school tommorrow. I said

I didn't really mean it and I was just joking. Then she said but you called me (soandso), I laughed and said yea

that was pretty funny. It might be good but I don't know yet ill tell you how she reacts tommorrow.

SirAngel
12-14-2004, 03:05 PM
I was totally

agreeing with you until the last paragraph!

Having a little problem with reading comprehension, huh? :)

The

period of my life whe I wasn't getting laid was when I was looking for a great woman and companion (I'm still

looking for a great woman and companion). The difference is now I have more control on where my relationaships are

going.

All men, let me repeat that, ALL MEN, are looking to get laid first. Then if the woman ends up to be

cool and seems to be someone we can get alomg with, then we continue the relationship. That's the way men's brains

work.

If a man asks you out, it's not because he wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants

to get into your pants.

My attitude now is I could care less if I get laid by any specific woman. I'm the one

doing the choosing. I can walk away from any woman.
You remind me of David D. I think you know who we´re

talking about. I can sign what Pherosurf said. The principals defenatly work! No doubt about that. It took me quite

a while to understand that a girl doesn´t need to like you to feel attracted to you. Atraction isn´t a choice...puts

it in a good Frame. There is no such thing as the ultimate truth and everybody is absolutely right from his own

point of view...

Angel

Skye
12-14-2004, 03:15 PM
My two-cents

worth:

First off, I'll give some background. 26y/o 1st year Graduate student. Found DYD and C&F 3-4 years

ago (Fresh/Sop year, about 6 months after I found LS). Studied it, and used it (what I took away from it at least)

to make my irregular love-life (meaning sometimes I hit, sometimes I missed with a lady) into a much more regular

situation. Is it all due to C&F and DYD and Pheromones? *Shrug* Only thing I can say with conviction is that I still

buy from LS, and that I still interact with women based on what I took away from DYD.

Now that we have

gotten that out of the way, what does C&F mean to me? (For that matter, what does a social interaction with a lady

mean to me?):

The first general question that pops into my mind is:

"Are we enjoying ourselves and

having a good time?"

why?

I think as fellow human beings, it is safe to assume that we tend to

gravitate towards enjoyable situations and avoid unenjoyable (or unpleasurable)

situations/feelings/interations.

Next Question:

"How do you have an enjoyable time with a

female?"

Now, some men (myself included, depending on mood) want to have hot head banging sex with a

beautiful woman. Other men (myself included, depending on mood) want to have an enlightened conversation,

light-hearted social interactions laced with flirtatious innuendo. Men sometimes also want to have a stable and

loving relationship. (myself included, I'm a gemini go figure.) Finally, some men just want to be within 5 ft of a

woman without her breaking out the mace. (I confess, I don't include myself in this category)

Whats the

point? The point is, many many men assume that by buying gifts, diamond rings, free lobster dinners, fast and fleshy

cars,the zegna suit, pheromones and all of DYD products, they can get some/all of the previous paragraph by

substituting/bypassing "...enjoyable time with a female"

Well, my personal belief in attraction is "...have a

uniquely enjoyable time with a female....and if I'm the only one that can make/have you feel that way.... ;P"



Third Question:
"So what happened to C&F? / What is C&F to you?"

So lets wrap up the last two

questions into answering the third (Yes, my need for convoluted replies is as bad as my need for validation.... ;)

)

The point is this, if you use C&F, and she says:

"You... are....such a....jerk"


(...playful, raised eyebrows, punches you in the arm softly...maintains eye contact...undoes left foot from her

shoe and swings it playfully....caressing her wine glass and licking the side of her lips...)

Then, we have a

positive social interaction....pleasurable feelings...one that you can be pretty sure she has enjoyed... (..and one

you can be pretty sure you would enjoy too ....soon.... sans the need for a zegna, CL55 AMG or the Tiffany

solitare...) ...with whatever you just did wth the C&F...

If you pull a C&F conversation with her, and she

says:
"You are SUCH A JERK!"
(...turing red in the face...screeching...livid with anger...red nails

digging into her palms...wait or was that your blood from getting your balls ripped off?)

Then you can be

pretty sure that you have had a negative interaction....bad / angry feelings... all linked just to you....



Wait, C&F isn't supposed to work that way!!!

Yup, it isn't. But you made it work that way. Bottom

line, she had a negative experience that was caused by you, linked to you and thus.....she is not likely to

associate you with good/positive/attractive feelings...

....and you are not going to get your itch

scratched...

even if you blame it on yourself, the stars, too much none or rone...your ethinicity....your

shoes.....her period.....how she was not your type....is a lesbian....had a bad childhood... .or C&F....

(So

what would I do with your friend who thinks you are a jerk)

I don't know... you could use C&F...you could

buy her flowers....you could buy her a diamond ring, a weekend trip to a spa in france... you could joke with her

like nothing happened.....suggesting that the both of you have coffee and have conversation.....

....but

whatever you (or I would) do, I would reverse whatever happend...and have her start associating

good/positive/attractive feelings to you. Not the bad negative/jerk/pissy and possibly unattractive feelings with

you.


Just my two-cents worth.

watcher27944
12-14-2004, 05:05 PM
Off hand I would say that

Silver knowes more about women then I do so I`ll go with her on this.

DeMoKiLL
12-14-2004, 05:07 PM
Your article was very helpful

skye, + rep to you! :-)

phersurf
12-14-2004, 05:13 PM
Off hand I

would say that Silver knowes more about women then I do so I`ll go with her on this.

I wonder how

many women she's dated?

It seems to me it's better to take advice from men that are successful with

women.

TRock
12-14-2004, 05:50 PM
I wonder how many

women she's dated?

It seems to me it's better to take advice from men that are successful with

women.true story. i had my sister and a few female friends help me with this girl and they made me become a

total needy wussy on purpose. the more you profess your love the more she'll love you. lol.

bjf
12-14-2004, 06:07 PM
true story. i had my

sister and a few female friends help me with this girl and they made me become a total needy wussy on purpose. the

more you profess your love the more she'll love you. lol.

They were trying to mess you up or they

were serious?

TRock
12-14-2004, 06:22 PM
it was their real advice, i doubt

it was meant to screw me over on purpose.

belgareth
12-14-2004, 06:29 PM
My sisters were a year older

and a year younger than me. We dated each other's friends from time to time, my older sister even married one of my

friends. It was a pretty good arrangement for us.

sprayit
12-15-2004, 05:22 AM
Silver: “I want a guy who

is secure enough in his own masculinity that he can be sympathetic, sentimental, and apologetic.”

Since

when are they masculine attributes? 'Get a gay man girlfriend.'

Silver: “Women admire men who are

willing to admit when they are wrong. This doesn't make you weak, this makes you adaptable, flexible, willing to

learn, grow, and mature.”

Admiration is a sense of awe, wonder and delight. Women (esp alpha types)

derive satisfaction from men whom back down... that is absolutely not “admiration.”

Men are

capable of frustration in the tedious pursuit of courtship, and they are capable of misrepresenting themselves as a

matter of gender character. Women who accept this are “adaptable, flexible, willing to learn and grow,”

as you so nicely put it.

As for maturity (which you seem keen to overstate), in my experience, the most

attractive personalities are the ones who aren't predominantly mature in their behaviour. For example, politicians

and lawyers are hardly arousing while they work.

Perhaps the issue here is that a lot of women simply refuse

to believe they're attractive, and rely so heavily on males to reassure them of their appearance. Just who is it

here who “isn't secure enough in themselves?” Doesn't sound like the male to me...

Gegogi
12-15-2004, 11:23 AM
Silver: “I want a guy who

is secure enough in his own masculinity that he can be sympathetic, sentimental, and apologetic.”

Since when

are they masculine attributes? 'Get a gay man girlfriend.'

Those are human attributes, not male or

female. Insecure men merely try to hide or suppress them. If you're incapable of expressing those attributes

you're suffering from either brain damage, social retardation or mental retardation. Even the most macho jerks

I've known can feel for ya when you get shafted, wax nostalgic about back in the day and apologize for stepping on

your toes.:sick:

bjf
12-15-2004, 11:31 AM
Insecure men merely try

to hide or suppress them.


....often with cockiness

sprayit
12-15-2004, 03:43 PM
In regards to sympathy,

sentimentality, and apology...

Gogogi: “Those are human attributes, not male or female. Insecure men

merely try to hide or suppress them.”

I beg to differ. Sympathy and sentimentality are phenomena that

are passive towards the environment. That is to say, that the individual is subordinate to the environmental

dictation. Apology on the other hand is absolute submission in every sense. Masculinity is not passive.

When

hubby apologises to his wife, he is submitting to her entirely as a means to worship and reward her, in attempt to

sway her power in decision to accept him back.

You casually use the terms “mental retardation”

and “social retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing disability? I hope

we aren't dawning on a fascist era...

bjf
12-15-2004, 03:57 PM
Spray it, an interesting perspective.

I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it. Shouldn't they

acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the hole you have

put yourself in?

belgareth
12-15-2004, 05:56 PM
In regards to

sympathy, sentimentality, and apology...

Gogogi: “Those are human attributes, not male or female. Insecure men

merely try to hide or suppress them.”

I beg to differ. Sympathy and sentimentality are phenomena that are

passive towards the environment. That is to say, that the individual is subordinate to the environmental dictation.

Apology on the other hand is absolute submission in every sense. Masculinity is not passive.

When hubby

apologises to his wife, he is submitting to her entirely as a means to worship and reward her, in attempt to sway

her power in decision to accept him back.

You casually use the terms “mental retardation” and “social

retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing disability? I hope we aren't dawning on a

fascist era...
When a husband apologises to his wife, he is in no way being passive, he is admitting to

having made a mistake. In almost every case, the ability to admit error increases respect rather than reduces it.

The person, male or female, that refuses to admit error is simply asking for a bad relationship. One of the most

common signs of immaturity is the failure and/or refusal to acknowledge that you can be wrong and admitting it when

you are.

phersurf
12-15-2004, 06:26 PM
I think some of us are confusing

behavior in creating initial attraction with a woman and behavior in a long term relationship.

Apples and

oranges.

Of course once you have a long term relationship, apppologies, as well as other behavior, that would

during the initial courtship stage be considered suplication, are fine.

belgareth
12-15-2004, 06:34 PM
You wouldn't apologise for a

mistake during the initial courtship?

Gegogi
12-15-2004, 06:39 PM
"You casually use the

terms “mental retardation” and “social retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing

disability? I hope we aren't dawning on a fascist era..."

And disparagement, indeed, was my

intention. Perhaps it was wrong but no less than implying that men with sympathetic, sentimental, or apologetic

behavior are not masculine. Furthermore it is less than PC to stereotype these characteristics as common among gay

men. Icidentally, most gay guys I know are ultra masculine.

I'll rephase: If you're a man and are incapable

of feeling or expressing the aforementioned attributes you may be mentally challenged, socially challenged or brain

dead. Hey, that was rather cocky for a card carrying liberal and metromale! :rofl:

sprayit
12-16-2004, 09:52 AM
BJF: “Spray it, an

interesting perspective. I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it.

Shouldn't they acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the

hole you have put yourself in?”

I am not making political, ethical or moral assertions BJF. I do not

know where that assumption came from..? I am stating that passive behaviour is not inherently masculine. I have not

once said “don't apologize” nor have I suggested any axioms relating to a “right and wrong”

theory of morality.

Belgareth: “When a husband apologises to his wife, he is in no way being passive,

he is admitting to having made a mistake.”

Not necessarily. It is quite possible to apologize for

actions which were deliberate, or for which there may not be any actual regret. I maintain, the act of apology is

the act of expressed submission.

Gegogi: “And disparagement, indeed, was my intention. Perhaps it was

wrong but no less than implying that men with sympathetic, sentimental, or apologetic behavior are not

masculine.”

I deny such implication. I never stated that sympathetic men are incapable of masculinity,

I stated that certain behaviours are not masculine. My statements pertain to observable behaviour, not the 'value

or worth' of men in a social context. Someone has misunderstood my words. Males are indeed capable of such

behaviour, but it is feminine behaviour. Have you got a problem with that? I sure haven't.

One might

conclude that you seem to believe that male femininity sounds detrimental to men... I do not share such an outdated

view.

bjf
12-16-2004, 10:20 AM
BJF: “Spray it, an

interesting perspective. I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it.

Shouldn't they acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the

hole you have put yourself in?”

I am not making political, ethical or moral assertions BJF. I do not know

where that assumption came from..? I am stating that passive behaviour is not inherently masculine. I have not once

said “don't apologize” nor have I suggested any axioms relating to a “right and wrong” theory of

morality.


Spray it, I never said you were making political, ethical or moral assertions. I do

not know where such an assumption came from.

I simply posed a hypothetical and wanted your response.

sprayit
12-16-2004, 11:57 AM
BJF: “Spray it, I never

said you were making political, ethical or moral assertions. I do not know where such an assumption came from. I

simply posed a hypothetical and wanted your response.”

Even a hypothetical “should they?”

question relates to politics, ethics or morality, as do right and wrong – that's where the assumption came

from. To respond, I have no take on the matter other than the notion of individual responsibility.

Back on

topic though, I still maintain, passive behaviour is not masculine

bjf
12-16-2004, 12:03 PM
Back on topic

though, I still maintain, passive behaviour is not masculine

I agree, but words are just labels,

right? So does it really matter much?

sprayit
12-16-2004, 12:21 PM
Of course it doesn't really

matter, it's just banter. What I find interesting is the concept that a male might promote and defend sympathy and

apology, but resent the idea that such behaviour is not fundamentally masculine.

Indeed it might just be

about labels, but those labels could, and seem to influence the ease by which a person might feel comfortable about

certain behaviours more so than the virtues of the behaviours themselves.

If it is all just about marketing,

then most of us could simply be end consumers of behavioural labels, despite thinking we're making behavioural

decisions for ourselves. Just thinking aloud. No problem, good karma!

belgareth
12-16-2004, 12:29 PM
Sprayit,

you seem to be

talking in circles here. First you tell Silver that if she wants those attributes she should get a gay boyfriend

then you tell us that they are fine in a man, that thinking otherwise is outdated thinking. Maybe I'm slow but you

seem to have dragged the thread of topic pointlessly. Is there some point to your arguments?

DrSmellThis
12-16-2004, 12:36 PM
Well, this thread is at least

educational.

Women grow cold when they find out or sense you're just not attracted to them (Thoroughly

mastering and controlling your attraction, or seeming neutral, is very different), so calling them "ugly" -- if she

might think there's a grain of truth -- is absolute death for any romantic/sexual chances. Making them think you

might be untrustworthy is also death, for obvious reasons. Only if she were 110% that you were only joking, that you

meant less than none of it; could you have any chances. And then she'd still think you're not funny. Making

reparations to the damage would be tricky, to say the least. You'd have to be very smart about it. I do not know

the situation well enough to be able to say whether it's possible.

Looks like we need more work on the funny

part. :trout:

Gegogi
12-16-2004, 01:33 PM
Sheesh Mr. Spray, yo sure 'nough

loves ta changed yo mind! Yeeeeeeee Haaaaaaa! :LOL:

phersurf
12-16-2004, 02:57 PM
You wouldn't

apologise for a mistake during the initial courtship?

Not for any cocky funny thing I said, even if

she took it as being slightly insulting. Although that's never happened to me since I NEVER insult something

physical about her that she can't change.

If I spilled something on her or anything like that, sure I'd

appologize and pay for cleaning.

belgareth
12-16-2004, 03:14 PM
Not for any

cocky funny thing I said, even if she took it as being slightly insulting. Although that's never happened to me

since I NEVER insult something physical about her that she can't change.

If I spilled something on her or

anything like that, sure I'd appologize and pay for cleaning.
You and I have very different mindsets

then. If I honestly offend somebody, I consider it good manners to apologise. If somebody thinks less of me for it,

that's not my concern as I was doing what I felt was correct.

Another difference is your contention that men

only take women out they want to sleep with. That may be true for some, for others it isn't.

phersurf
12-16-2004, 07:05 PM
You and I have

very different mindsets then. If I honestly offend somebody, I consider it good manners to apologise. If somebody

thinks less of me for it, that's not my concern as I was doing what I felt was correct.

Another difference

is your contention that men only take women out they want to sleep with. That may be true for some, for others it

isn't.

When I'm on the first couple of dates I'm trying to create attraction. One of the ways I do

this is to use cocky/funny. Women don't like wussies. Busting her balls in a humerous way tells her that I won't

be a clingy, needy guy. When I'm being c/f I get the following reactions from women, "I can't believe you just

said that!", "oh, you're a jerk!" and others, all delivered with a little chuckle and usually followed by a hit to

my shoulder. There is nothing to appologize for!

The only reason, initialy, that a man asks out a women is

because he is attracted to her for some reason or another. He may think to himself, "she would make a good wife,

mother and comapnion". But the bottom line is his DNA wants to replicate and it uses the lymbic brain to control the

man's desires to do so. Your parental, religious, societal, etc. programming my tell you that you have "more lofty"

reasons for taking her out, but the bottom line is, when it comes to male/female relations, we're controlled by an

ancient part of our brains.

When I say that men only take women out that they want to sleep with, I'm not

saying that all they want to do is sleep whith them or they want to sleep with them that night.

Obviously if

this woman is a freind and will never be anything more, taking her out has a totally dynamic (because your lymbic

brain isn't attracted to her).

Read the following books if you want to learn more about this extremely

fascinating stuff.

The Red Queen : Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - Matt Ridley

The Selfish

Gene - Richard Dawkins

The Mating Mind : How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature - Geoffrey

Miller

Sperm Wars - Robin Baker

Gegogi
12-16-2004, 07:26 PM
"The only reason,

initialy, that a man asks out a women is because he is attracted to her for some reason or another. He may think to

himself, "she would make a good wife, mother and comapnion". But the bottom line is his DNA wants to replicate and

it uses the lymbic brain to control the man's desires to do so."

Oh comeon! That's extremely

simplistic and does not represent all or even most men. I enjoy dating women I have no intention of having sex with.

Getting to know them as a person is extremely rewarding and enriching (I have few male friends). I also have sex

with women I have no intention of dating or being friends with. For me, that's the perfect combo, i.e., love slave

and refined companion/friend. Some guys prefer transgender "women." Some even prefer post-op transgender women. Some

guys like men. Love, sex 'n dating ain't just about replicating DNA. It's about deepening your human experience,

pleasure and companionship, but not necessary all at once in the same woman. I have no children and don't plan to

make any... :hammer:

phersurf
12-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Please reread what I

said!

Your rational, thinking necortex will come up with all sorts other reasons to go out with certain

women. But, the women you're attracted to, you're attracted to because of your lymbic brain. There have been tons

of experamints down showing that when men or women are attracted sexually to anyone (no matter what tha sex) there

is a drastic increase activity in the lymbic brain.

Again, your rational brain tells you that love and sex is

more than about replicating DNA. I'm never planning on haveing kids either, but I understand I'm still controled

by the evolutionary drive to reproduce. That's why sex feels good, to make sure humans reproduce.

please

read some of the books I recomned, you'll understand the concepts I'm trying to fumble with much better.

belgareth
12-16-2004, 07:41 PM
When I'm on

the first couple of dates I'm trying to create attraction. One of the ways I do this is to use cocky/funny. Women

don't like wussies. Busting her balls in a humerous way tells her that I won't be a clingy, needy guy. When I'm

being c/f I get the following reactions from women, "I can't believe you just said that!", "oh, you're a jerk!"

and others, all delivered with a little chuckle and usually followed by a hit to my shoulder. There is nothing to

appologize for! That kind of dodges the point. To repeat, if I honestly offend somebody, I'll apologise.

The cocky funny has never appealed to me but that may be just my personality. Mostly I get an urge to do that type

bodily harm.

My mouth tends to run away when I am having fun and I can usually make almost anybody laugh

without shooting at them. But, as you may have noticed, I have an attitude problem anyway. I don't especially care

who likes the way I think or act. If I think of something funny to say, I'll probably say it but am usually pretty

careful of other's feelings.


The only reason, initialy, that a man asks out a women is because

he is attracted to her for some reason or another. He may think to himself, "she would make a good wife, mother and

comapnion". But the bottom line is his DNA wants to replicate and it uses the lymbic brain to control the man's

desires to do so. Your parental, religious, societal, etc. programming my tell you that you have "more lofty"

reasons for taking her out, but the bottom line is, when it comes to male/female relations, we're controlled by an

ancient part of our brains.
Obviously if this woman is a freind and will never be anything more, taking her out

has a totally dynamic (because your lymbic brain isn't attracted to her).

This may explain it, I

haven't 'dated' in more than twenty years. I met my girlfriend shortly after my wife and I seperated while I was

doing a lecture. She was part of the audience and joined the prof, myself and several others for pizza and beer

afterwards. The lecture had gone well, I was wearing mones, in a good mood and a couple beers loosened my tongue.

She ended up beside me somehow and everything just kind of followed from there. I emphatically was not looking for

any relationship at that time, being too busy feeling sorry for myself. Jess later told me I was horribly

uncooperative about the whole thing.

What works for each person is going to be something they can make a part

of themselves. I'd feel like an idiot if I tried to be what you guys describe here. It isn't a part of my nature

to be that way or to pretend I am anything but what I am.

Gegogi
12-16-2004, 08:55 PM
"'m never planning on

haveing kids either, but I understand I'm still controled by the evolutionary drive to reproduce. That's why sex

feels good, to make sure humans reproduce."

Some guys prefer to do without women all together.

Wacking off is the sole extent of their productive experience. Heck, wacking off is usually better than intercourse.

Nevertheless, I'm often attracted to women intellectually or artistically that would never get a hardon outta me.

Yes, we hang out all the time and I just think of them as one of the boys. Sexually they don't do a thing for me or

are even replusive.

DrSmellThis
12-16-2004, 08:57 PM
Great points, Gegogi, as

usual. Bel too. And a shout out to Holmes, Silver, and AKA. ;)

And bjf just needs to be took to the hole.

Silver
12-16-2004, 09:51 PM
I think you are once again

confusing cocky and insulting. I like cocky guys, but cocky means that they act like they think THEY are awesome.

Even if they think they are more awesome than they really are, this sort of behaviour is fine by me, and sometimes

appealing. However, insulting is something different altogether and never acceptable.

An example, for those who

don't believe that women find apologizing attractiveness, and to illustrate the difference between cocky and

possibly offensive behaviour, even if it's not insulting: I was chatting with this guy that I was fairly attracted

to online, when the conversation took a more risque turn. He was being ridiculously cocky, chatting and laughing

and teasing me to no end in that sort of "you sure you don't want some of this?;)" way. I was half egging him on,

half teasingly pushing him away. The trick in teasing him? Not saying "no i don't want any because you're ugly"

but rather "haha, you wish" or "i think I'll pass, but I'll keep the offer in mind;)" sort of thing.

Now, at

one point he sort of crossed a line with me, which I won't tell you about because it's unimportant. I kind of got

a little quiet. I wasn't really offended because I know he didn't mean to offend me at all, that was quite

obvious, and in fact I could tell the only reason he accidentally crossed it was because he liked me. I got over it

really fast, but nevertheless he noticed, and quickly apologized, saying that he didn't want to offend me, he's

sorry if he went overboard, next time just smack him overthehead if he goes near doing it again, and so forth and so

on. It really warmed me. It just showed what a great all around person he is, how he's concerned about the

feelings of others, and how he's not afraid to apologize for possible mistakes. Even though it was something that,

for me, he did not really need to apologize for, he did because for some people it might be offensive and he wasn't

sure where I fell. This earned him MAJOR points in my book.

Now, going on to address some of the other

points:

I don't believe that apologizing is passive behaviour. You have to go out of your way to apologize to

someone...letting it slide, ignoring something potentially hurtful and insulting, these both seem to me much more

passive actions than being strong enough to admit that you're wrong.

Nor do I believe passivity is feminine.

Personally, I find that statement fairly insulting, although I know you didn't mean it that way. I could quote a

thousand literary references, a million historical references, and dozens of personal experiences to argue the

opposite, in fact, but perhaps the most fitting would be a quote from My Big Fat Greek Wedding: "The man is the head

of the house, but the woman is the neck; she can turn the head any way she wants."

Now, the man is not always

the head, and the woman not always the neck. But most of the time, the societal prejudice that passivity is

feminine comes from an inaccurate analysis of situations where the man is the head and the woman is the neck. We

women are just as, if not more, often the agressive ones, but when we are, we are not flashy and attention-grabbing.

We are agressive in getting the things we want done, regardless of the image. I am not one of those burlap wearing

feminazis... in my opinion, it is good to be Woman :D

~Silver

Oh and, by the way, can someone tell me what

"took to the hole" means, per say? Whatever it is, I'm sure bjf deserves it;), but I'm curious.

Gegogi
12-17-2004, 12:14 AM
Sliver, I've only heard "took to

the hole" used in relationship to scoring in basketball:

"Hill received an Annie Obrist pass which created

a 2 v 1 break that Hill took to the hole with her left hand. An Albertson player put a body on Hill and got her hand

on the ball but there was no call by the referee as time expired." But I guess it's meaning is expanding.

sprayit
12-17-2004, 04:29 AM
Belgareth: “First you tell

Silver that if she wants those attributes she should get a gay boyfriend.”

I did not tell her to get a

gay boyfriend, I said get a gay man, and I was kidding. You were supposed to be able to tell by the nature of the

way it was said in relation to the rest of the post: 'Get a gay man girlfriend'

Perhaps the language

appeared identical in it's seriousness to the rest of my post despite efforts to make the phrase appear isolated in

a slang-like tone. A good illustration of how easy it is to draw confusion to light hearted play! Never mind, now

you know. Your flowers are in the post, please forgive me. Sorry I do go on don't I? Good karma!

Phersurf:

“Your rational, thinking necortex will come up with all sorts other reasons to go out with certain women. But,

the women you're attracted to, you're attracted to because of your lymbic brain.”

Hear hear!! Endless

high level intellectual justifications for what is essentially primal, low level instinct. Arousal and interest in

women is autonomic, not to mention our obvious physiological responses. Men are DNA sprayers, and designed so. Just

so happens that sexual anticipation too is pleasurable; it has to be, else we'd never stay interested enough to

copulate.

Gegogi: “Wacking off is the sole extent of their productive experience. Heck, wacking off is

usually better than intercourse.... Yes, we hang out all the time and I just think of them as one of the

boys.”

Whacking off is done fantasising about actual possibility (thoughts, porn etc). Intercourse is

consummation of the opposite sex, fulfilment of purpose. What other ultimate biological function does the opposite

sex serve? Men will wack off to pictures of bare genitals and breasts, but not have sexual intercourse to pictures

of sexy hands... (one simply simulates the other, but th underlying drive is the same) . Sure you aren't attracted

to all women, nobody suggested you were meant to be. Men must be able to make low-level worthiness determinations

regarding who deserves their seed, as do women.

sprayit
12-17-2004, 05:02 AM
Silver: “I was half egging

him on, half teasingly pushing him away. The trick in teasing him? Not saying "no i don't want any because you're

ugly" but rather "haha, you wish" or "i think I'll pass, but I'll” keep the offer in mind" sort of

thing.

Of course, it's called being a **tease, not that you're being called that by me. Women do this to

avoid being ostracised in circumstances where they're often uninterested in pursuing serious sexual relations,

whilst keeping the male interested. Women know that to state sex will not be forthcoming, will probably lead to the

male losing a significant level of interest in her, so she plays along in a misleading fashion.

Essentially,

it's most often a humoursome brush off to serious sexual proposal. In modern society, it needs to be this way, else

all the men would simply avoid all the women who made it clear they weren't sexual; to tease is to suggest to the

guy: “Not now, but hey, maybe later.”

It's just so simple to rationalize. Asexual women get far

far less contact with males. Hence the flirting, and the makeup (a blushed face, depicting a constant state of

female arousal), all designed to cause male sexual interest, which often results in the guy whacking off at home in

anticipation of the real thing next week – which will probably not happen.

Silver: “I got over it

really fast, but nevertheless he noticed, and quickly apologized, saying that he didn't want to offend me, he's

sorry if he went overboard, next time just smack him overthehead if he goes near doing it again, and so forth and so

on. It really warmed me.”

Sounds to me he felt frustrated that his masculine wiles were producing

disatisfactory result. What warmed you, is the notion that he may be a special man, a wonderous mutation of nature,

whose primary motivations are not sexual. Yeah right, (but hey you gotta dream). Still, such inaccurate portrayal no

doubt earns “MAJOR POINTS” and appeals to fantasy.

Silver: “I don't believe that

apologizing is passive behaviour. You have to go out of your way to apologize to someone...letting it slide,

ignoring something potentially hurtful and insulting, these both seem to me much more passive actions than being

strong enough to admit that you're wrong.”

To suggest 'self-wrongness' in light of present

company's 'apparent-rightness' is a submission to the present company. The only active element here, is him

wrestling with his ego in the process to satisfy the person to whom he is submitting.

Silver: “Nor do I

believe passivity is feminine. Personally, I find that statement fairly insulting”

Respectfully Silver,

you seem to be insulted rather often, or at least rather easily. Have you considered the possibility that this may

be a coping mechanism of yours, or that you might have some sort of entitlement complex?

Silver: “Now,

the man is not always the head, and the woman not always the neck.”

In marital situations, where the

wife rations the sex, I'd say you have a good point. She has a monopoly afterall! I suppose withholding sex from a

man who by virtue of marital agreement, he has no contractual option to seek it elsewhere. This could indeed be

considered forceful on the part of the wife, and maybe even aggressive? Interesting stuff.

bjf
12-17-2004, 06:23 AM
To everyone, when spray it is talking

about apologizing being feminine, he is equating it to submission/passiveness. We can talk about how much strength

it takes to make an apology, but forget the process, think about what is ultimately being done: you are

accepting the circumstances rather than keep on fighting.

In sex, the woman is

accepting/receiving/submissing, the male is being active, penetrating. That is not to say women are hopping

around the bed and such, blah blah blah, but I hope you can see why accepting is equated with submission, while

penetrating is equated with imposing/being active. Again, we are not talking about the decisions or processes of

getting there, because we all know the woman is the one who controls sex and decides to submit, we are just

talking about the physical act and the verbs being assigned to the different genders. :POKE:

This is why in

jail, as DST no doubt can tell you :whip: , only the guy taking it up the butt is gay or femine (being made

someone's bitch). The male having sex with another male (certainly a gay act) who is penetrating (active) the

passive guy is thought to be completely masculine and hetero, however.

I read a book about the history of

repression in argentina, and the author argued it the goverment tried to feminize the nation to have control. They

argued that the widespread torture of citizens was their way of feminizing them, because in torture one is imposing

their will/active (masculine) on a victim who is being forced to submit (feminine). They were penetrating their

ideas on citizens who had no choice but to accept. It was the rape of a nation.

So anyway, if we call acts

of submission feminine, then apologizing is a feminine act. That is not to say there is anything necessarily wrong

with a submissive or feminine act, although some people tend to equate feminine as meaning weak, probably because we

call weak people feminine so often. It is just about the relationship between the apologizer and the apologee, and

spray it argued that apologizing was accepting circumstances and not trying to impose your will to change them, thus

pegging the female role on the apologizer.


G got it right on taking it to the hole, btw. Unfortunately,

no one can take me to the hole, the basket or the butt. :run:

a.k.a.
12-17-2004, 08:10 AM
You can couch the argument in terms

like “masculine/feminine” or “passive/aggressive”, but these are just value judgments. The bottom line is that

anybody that can’t or won’t apologize when they are wrong will never grow as a person and probably won’t get far in

society.

Silver
12-17-2004, 08:15 AM
Silver: “I was

half egging him on, half teasingly pushing him away. The trick in teasing him? Not saying "no i don't want any

because you're ugly" but rather "haha, you wish" or "i think I'll pass, but I'll” keep the offer in mind" sort of

thing.

Of course, it's called being a **tease, not that you're being called that by me. Women do this to avoid

being ostracised in circumstances where they're often uninterested in pursuing serious sexual relations, whilst

keeping the male interested. Women know that to state sex will not be forthcoming, will probably lead to the male

losing a significant level of interest in her, so she plays along in a misleading fashion.

Essentially, it's

most often a humoursome brush off to serious sexual proposal. In modern society, it needs to be this way, else all

the men would simply avoid all the women who made it clear they weren't sexual; to tease is to suggest to the guy:

“Not now, but hey, maybe later.”

It's just so simple to rationalize. Asexual women get far far less contact

with males. Hence the flirting, and the makeup (a blushed face, depicting a constant state of female arousal), all

designed to cause male sexual interest, which often results in the guy whacking off at home in anticipation of the

real thing next week – which will probably not happen.

Silver: “I got over it really fast, but nevertheless he

noticed, and quickly apologized, saying that he didn't want to offend me, he's sorry if he went overboard, next

time just smack him overthehead if he goes near doing it again, and so forth and so on. It really warmed me.”



Sounds to me he felt frustrated that his masculine wiles were producing disatisfactory result. What warmed you, is

the notion that he may be a special man, a wonderous mutation of nature, whose primary motivations are not sexual.

Yeah right, (but hey you gotta dream). Still, such inaccurate portrayal no doubt earns “MAJOR POINTS” and appeals to

fantasy].
First off, you can be a tease even when you're interested. I'm a tease, and I know it, and

I'm proud of it. However, I don't tease guys when I'm not interested, because that would be leading him on.

This particular guy I was, and still am, very interested in. In fact, he is the one guy that I am most interested

in right now, with the possible exception of Eric Bana mm mm good. However, I was uncomfortable with things going

to fast in some areas. In fact, not only was I uncomfortable, I was also afraid that if I let it go too far I would

be considered 'easy'. This in no way meant that sexual contact would not be forthcoming...just not yet.



Secondly, I have no illusions that his primary motivations at this point were probably sexual. He's a 20 year

old male for goodness sake! However, it was indeed comforting to know that he had secondary motivations that were

less sexual. Or, even if he did not, that he would not let this primary motivation of sex get in the way of his

moral values and consideration for others.


Silver: “Nor do I believe passivity is feminine.

Personally, I find that statement fairly insulting”

Respectfully Silver, you seem to be insulted rather often,

or at least rather easily. Have you considered the possibility that this may be a coping mechanism of yours, or that

you might have some sort of entitlement complex?.
I'd first like to point out that this is in no way

respectful. Insinuating that I have an entitlement complex or that I am using a coping mechanism is an uncalled for

insult.

Secondly, when I said that I find that statement fairly insulting, I continued to say that I was not

really insulted because I knew the person who said it did not mean it to be...unlike your previous comment.

However, it IS insulting to women to say that passivity is feminine. Like bjf said, it is true that passivity is

usually equated with femininity, because many times it seems this way. However, to say that passivity is

intrinsically female is a different thing entirely. Correlation and causality are vastly different. Post hoc,

ergo, proctor hoc...after it, therefore, because of it...a statement that is very rarely true.

~Silver

a.k.a.
12-17-2004, 08:15 AM
This is why in jail, as

DST no doubt can tell you :whip: , only the guy taking it up the butt is gay or femine (being made someone's

bitch). The male having sex with another male (certainly a gay act) who is penetrating (active) the passive guy is

thought to be completely masculine and hetero, however.

This thread should be moved to the humor

section.

sprayit
12-17-2004, 08:46 AM
AKA: “You can couch the

argument in terms like “masculine/feminine” or “passive/aggressive”, but these are just

value judgments.”

By stating so, you subtly reveal a lot about your perception of femininity. I made it

quite clear I am not passing judgement, and to the point that I feel as though I am being required to convince the

floor such. The problem here is the floor is, in places, holding assumptions about gender value. Assumptions that

are being applied to my statements. Assumptions I do not share!

Silver: “I was also afraid that if I

let it go too far I would be considered 'easy'. This in no way meant that sexual contact would not be

forthcoming...just not yet.”

As I said, you confirm the notion of “no sex now tiger, but behave

and maybe much later you can.” The dangling of the carrot in this way serves two purposes, 1.) her avoiding

alienation despite lack of immediate sexual interest, or 2.) enjoying the process of carrot dangling itself. In the

case you cite, it's likely you are engaging both 1.) and 2.) simultaneously.

Silver: “Secondly, I have

no illusions that his primary motivations at this point were probably sexual. He's a 20 year old male for goodness

sake!”

Probably? Probably??? Please. Yet if you are indeed aware his motivations are sexual, why do you

derive “warm feelings” when he backs down, suppresses and apologising for these strong, primal sexual

urges expressed towards you? Do you enjoy telling him “down boy, go fetch, sit, roll over?” Mind

games.

Silver: “I'd first like to point out that this is in no way respectful. Insinuating that I have

an entitlement complex or that I am using a coping mechanism is an uncalled for insult.”

Yeah ok, in

future I'll make less effort in that case. I am not insinuating, I am making observation based on the material

provided. In my opinion, hiding behind insult as often as appears to be the case is the safety net, and protective

barrier against fear of sexual domination. It is the trump card, which any “decent” man will cower in

the face of. It is the absolute power over men, which will obligate them to back down and behave like good little

boys. I mean, just look at the number of times “insult” appears in the respective posts I refer to! Mind

games. They'll work on a lot of guys too, so long as one has beauty on their side.

Let's turn the tables a

little.... I find YOUR feminist manipulation of men's sexuality insulting. To toy with the male libido in such a

fashion is gravely disrespectful. You should be ashamed of yourself! etc etc etc ad infinitum... ROFL :cheers:

:whip:

oscar
12-17-2004, 10:34 AM
Folks,

Since this thread has

become something of a pissing match dealing more with ethics and psychology than anything that the original thread

poster could have imagined, it's my opinion that it should either be locked or moved to the Open Discussion board.



Oscar :)

bjf
12-17-2004, 10:59 AM
Shouldn't stuff like this be in open

discussion anyway? It never had anything to do with pheromones.

SirAngel
12-17-2004, 11:28 AM
Right on!!!:thumbsup:

Gegogi
12-17-2004, 11:34 AM
"Whacking off is done

fantasising about actual possibility (thoughts, porn etc)."

Yes, it often is. However I can stroke ma

crank and merely enjoy the pleasure and have no thoughts of women or their parts.

Friendly1
12-17-2004, 11:47 AM
I listened to

women about how to deal with women for years and it got me more dates with my hand than I care to admit to (I'm

sure some of you can relate).
While women CAN give advice badly, I have seldom actually gotten bad advice

from a woman. They don't always say something the way a man should hear it. But in looking back at the times I

asked close friends to give me advice on how to get a date or whatever, they were trying to tell me certain things

that I now understand better.

Silver was spot on the money with the "be a man, not a boy". What sets a man

apart from a boy (among other things) is the man's willingness to take responsibility for his actions.

Telling

a woman she is ugly is just plain rude, insulting, and in no way cocky, funny, or attractive.

That deal was

blown the moment he clicked on SEND. Only a woman with some real emotional issues would come back to a guy who did

that without apologizing to her.

phersurf
12-22-2004, 03:16 PM
Here's a real life experince I

had 2 nights ago.

I met a woman (very hot late 30's) at a Starbucks for some coffee (I met her the previous

week at the mall and got her phone #). I imediately started busting her balls, first on her purse, her shoes, her

behavior (she spilled a little coffee and I said, "I was starting to get into you until you just did that", all in a

sort of playful way. She would get visably upset for a second or two, then start laughing and say things like,

"you're horrible" or "you're a jerk". I've come to the conclusion that women don't call men jerks unless

they're attracted to them, if they really think a man is a jerk, they'll ignore or avoid him.

The best one

was about 45 minutes into our conversation she commented on how by now every other guy she's ever been out with

would have told her how beautiful she is several times. I said that's because all those other guys will tell you

anything to get laid, the subtext being that I'm not seeking approval from her, I'm not impressed with her looks

and I'm comfortable in my own skin. She really got upset when I said this.

If I appologized for any of my

remarks, she would have thought I was a standard wussie, just like all the other guys that ask her out.

By

the end of the night she was all over me, her slightly stuck up "hot girl" persona was gone. We parted ways (without

having sex, even though it was obvious it could have happened) and I told her to call me. This morning she called me

and asked why I didn't call her, I told her I said for her to call me. She asked me out for next week after the

holliday weekend.

If you were to tell me a year ago that I would be acting like this with a beautiful woman

and she'd be loving it (at least her lymbic brain was loving it), I would have thought you were crazy!

So

tell me, should I have appologized?

SirAngel
12-22-2004, 03:44 PM
what a great story pherosurf...

That was creating attraction at its best!!! Like you said: girls only call you a jerk or so if they like you and

they want to test you. They wouldn´t say jerk to a 90 jear old or a cripple, now would they? Imagine what its like,

when you call a good mate an a__hole...! It´s just for fun! And yes of course there are exeptions when women mean

it, when they call you a jerk, but thats if you behave like a total loony, psycho, dumbass, jerk...and we won´t go

into that because its obvious...

P.s. In my opinion saying you were sorry, would have made you look weak and she

would have walked all over ya...

STICK WITH WHAT WORKS...

DrSmellThis
12-22-2004, 04:02 PM
Giving someone a hard time in

a kidding way, teasing, or "busting their chops," can indeed be effective as a display of an aspect of fun

manliness.

There are elements of mastery, control, unaffectedness, and confidence there; as well as fun.



There was also that "I know, that you know, that I know aspect." It was acknowledged by her that you were

mastering a game.

In many cultures you know someone likes you by how much they tease you (e.g., Irish). In

Japanese culture, being criticised can be a sign that you've been accepted into closeness; or that they feel a

certain closeness. So there is also that factor.

There is a way to do it all without losing the sense of being a

gentleman.

That is all very different from being mean, insensitive, and hurtful in an attempt to manipulate

someone into liking you. That's clumsy, ignorant pubescence; rather than manliness.

Hetero women are attracted

to men.