OD report

[Elvis]

This was an experiment of

mine last night.

I put on some TE:SPMO mix @ 1:1 ratio. Was equivalent to 2 sprays TE from 10ml atomiser. Then,

I slathered on an entire packet of Edge gelpack with some cologne.

The night started with the Italian girl

I’ve been pestering recently. I sent her about 3 text messages last week and she ignored every one of them. I

called her shit by sending an extremely abusive message and calling her a whore. Guess what…she phones 30

seconds later saying, “I’m sorry…busy/no credit in phone/only received one message not 3, blah,

blah…” I continued to give her shit. It’s sad that I have to get her attention this way, but if

she didn’t want to know me in the first place she could tell me to my face instead of disrespecting me by

ignoring me and telling lies.

We meet in a café. Have coffee. She is uncomfortable, obviously. However, she then

asks me to have dinner/go out to a club later…I said no. She just said it to be polite.

Then, I meet with

some friends. We play guitar. They treat me like a God, even though one of my friends (a fabulous dude) plays like

f/ Satriani.

We go out. Guess what, there is Italian girl. She tries to speak, but she only does it ‘cause

I gave her shit, so what’s the point in that. She then talks to a hunky dude for ages, gushing over his looks,

forgetting I was there because of this piece of eye candy. So, I ignore her in return. She is so f/ shallow, if I

dived into her I’d break my neck.

Another girl asks me to find her coat. Common dealing here. I ask her

friend for the coat who is with some gorilla. He says, “Who the f/ are you. Can’t you see I’m busy

here?” I say quite seriously, “I don’t give a fuck you ugly ape, I’m just looking for that

ladies coat” Then I squeeze his ridiculously oversized pectorals, making ape gestures, not even joking. He

laughs. Asshole.

In disco. Hot porn star type (ageing, but ageing well/naturally ‘bout 35 years old)

Declares that I am f/ gorgeous and wants to f/ me. She shouted it very loudly in front of everyone. I accept the

‘compliment?’ and she then leaves with another man. Cheap tart.

Met a 19-year-old guy who was f/

brilliant. He had his entire life sussed. Beautiful woman (23) I mean gorgeous but a real person too. Good job. Nice

people with him. I hope I meet him again sometime. He doesn’t pander to other people, just believes in

himself.

Met a gorilla guy outside. I was thinking he would probably start some shit but he was different.

Wanted to speak like a human being. Got on really well with this dude. Seemed to not be afraid of me at all, but

wanted to talk about life. We agree to have a drink next time we meet (can’t rave enough about this guy.

Really powerful looking. Muscular. Huge frame. 6’ plus. Polite. Pleasant. Gentleman. Good looking. I’m

not gay btw. Sort of guy who isn’t afraid of anything/anyone, but treats everybody as an equal with great

respect. Sort of guy who would give his life fighting to protect his family, or friends, for what he believes in. I

really hope I see him again).

An asshole acquaintance of mine was trying to drag some drunk ass woman home to f/

her. Just to take advantage. She could barely stand up or speak. I tell him to leave the girl alone, she is

vulnerable and should sleep it off. He gets really angry (naturally) ‘cause I’m interfering with his

prospect. Dickhead. So, I tell him if he has a problem with my opinion, if he believes it is wrong and I am wrong

then to fight me. He says no. He knows he is wrong, but doesn’t have the guts to show it like a man. Just

wants his f/ end away. Idiot

So, I storm off, disgusted by society in general. These people have no

self-respect. I wish I didn’t care but that is not me.

So, I phoned up some friends, the guitar crowd.

They agree to have a jam next week. They are really enthusiastic, so maybe we can cut some tracks.

OD’ing

purposefully, for me has separated the men from the boys. I can see people with self-respect and respect for others,

so much more clearly than before. The wankers stick out like a sore thumb, and I take great pleasure in broadcasting

their sorry asses to the general public. At the same time, I am drawn toward the strong willed characters, who have

dignity and believe in themselves. Maybe ‘none makes me too aggressive. But I can’t say I dislike the

effect. My bullshit detector is on maximum overdrive.

Anyone had a night like this, sometime?

[LINY]

That was deep. Glad I haven't

experienced serious OD yet...!

[Elvis]

Liny, I don't regret a

single second of it. In fact, despite my obvious distress...it was one of the best nights of my life. Did this ever

happen to you without 'mones?

[Elvis]

Wow, this forum is the best

thing since on the 'net. I'm glad I found it.

[LINY]

You say it was one of the best

nights of your life...do you mean, as far as enjoying yourself, or for learning a lot about people? I've had plenty

of crappy nights or nights that I felt more alpha than others (both which normally included alcohol) but probably

not quite the type of experience as you've described. It seems as though most of the time I'm underdosed more than

overdosed. I've had primary success with repeated applications of SPMO:TE 1:1 as well. Of what I've been reading,

it seems people using Perception have been finding it difficult to overdose, likely because you don't have to

repeat applications throughout the day/night in the first place, and is likely the best bet...?

[Elvis]

You say it was

one of the best nights of your life...do you mean, as far as enjoying yourself, or for learning a lot about

people?
Both. I found myself in a few situations I usually wouldn't want to be in, and a few I did want

to be in. However, I enjoyed it because I think I discovered something about myself and other people. Your

statement, for me, has one meaning.

What kind of success have you had with the 'mones?

[LINY]

This is my 'main' success story:

http://pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12147

Since that week I've held off on using

pheromones very much since I've been real busy lately and didn't want to waste it. My biggest gripe is still that

it wears off very quickly on my body, like within an hour or so, and I've been waiting for the new Platinum

Perception to come out before buying it for the extended release. Basically when I put on two sprays of SPMO:TE 1:1

on my wrists and talk closely to most younger women, I've had huge success, so much so that it seems to last to the

days when I don't even wear them! Memory trigger? They give me a sort of alpha buzz of sorts, but I haven't been

able to totally decipher whether its a placebo effect or not. I've got to try different application points and

higher dosages, since I haven't had any kind of OD that I have noticed yet.

[Elvis]

Just read it. Great report

man!

[LINY]

Thanks man, I'm going to go to

work now and see how far two sprays of the same mix takes me. I look forward to experimenting with this mix and

using SoE when going to local car dealers to buy a used car, see if it has any effect on them. Seems it would be

difficult to detect though, maybe a -none type reaction would be too aggressive and hurt my deal?

[Elvis]

I'm sorry, I have no

authority in this case to say if you should wear 'none or not. In light of my recent experiences, I'd personally

go easy on the 'none. But, that is just an opinion. With 'none, I can smell bullshit a mile away. If the salesman

is aware you're balking at his crummy patter, he may resent you and be a hardass. Or, he may kiss your feet because

you're honest. Depends what kind of guy he is and maybe how much 'none you are wearing???

[eric_pelletier_tw]

well that's an OD :P

i never ODed on none but i did on SoE gel (smelled catpiss after a few min ... need to test.... ) i must be not

wearing enough i have tried TE 1/4 of a pack up till now & no OD ill trie to go out next weekend see if i can get

some results with 1/2 TE [i dont go out much :) ] btw i putted a ridicoulous amout of SoE to OD ... ill try again

...

[Surreal]

next time I want some trouble I

will OD.

-S

[Watcher]

Celticbhoy we shuold keep talking

lol - its always good to meet a like minded individual ie society and its various sheetheads and wanerks and then

the nice individuals, decent human beings who give a damn instead of being losers in dealing with others.

I

get this sort of thing every day - you will get used to it after a while but if you are getting results from

pheromones and you should keep using them to get the advantage over others.

Use it for good or at least youre

good.

[Elvis]

next time I

want some trouble I will OD.
Hahaha...beauty! :rofl:



but if you are getting results

from pheromones...

I know I'm getting results/reactions/hits or whatever you want to call them,

unfortunately they are not the ones I want. Even with quite low amounts of 'none people look at me like I'm Jack

the Ripper. I'm looking for that thing that makes ladies crazy about you and really dig you, not just for a f/

(although I wouldn't baulk at the prospect). Maybe, I should not try any 'none for a week or so, scrub it all of

my body and then start again with only a couple of dabs of TE and work upwards. Alternatively, I could try another

product. I am still thinking about buying Perception and Chikara/SOE gel packs. But if I don't need much 'none; I

still have plenty of TE...I could use that as a source and maybe combine it with a more friendly/less threatening

product. Do I need Perception, since it has 'none in it? Do I need the 'rone? I can find 'nol in other products,

although the extended release seems like a big bonus. Would copulins be the opposite of 'none and round off the

lone wolf effect?

Perhaps I should also work on some aspects of my character. But I find that even when I'm

being really nice, I am still ignored, avoided, shunned et al. Sometimes I feel like a leper. Maybe I give people

the creeps. I can't understand it though. I am not bad looking. My personal hygiene is as good as anyone's. I try

to treat people with respect, dignity, find out about them and their lives. I don't stare at people, or scare them

with my conversational topics....so, I'm a bit confused at the moment. I just want a woman who's brave enough to

take me on, but why they need to feel like this to get on with me...I have no idea.

[Watcher]

Again me without the mones =

suggest you serioulsy consider the perception you get the SOE and chikara and the edge gel packs with that (try them

seperatley)

The thing wiht perception is the Anone is 25% of the total mix - its the Anol that gets people

chatty, happy more into you without being scared off

Similar thing with attraction despite the Anone it plays

second fiddle to the Anol which is the big one. IT seems to cancel out a lot of the bad vibes of straight

Anone

Arone will make you appear more dependable less lone wolf type - it is actually similar to my original

DD#1 mix.

Id try the cops later on - just try the perception first the extended realise thing really is much

more effective - im getting big time hits with perception latley (it seems on part with perfect 10 dare i

say)

Of cousre you could go SOE/NPA - DD#1 mix the scents mix well you could try the scentless version. 70%

SOE and 30% NPA + with NPA you get the 2 secret ingredients that make it a different Anone product (its anone with

respect)

[Fuse]

Celtic, you've got a good head on

your shoulders. Some people may think your antics are cruel, but the way you dealt with that Italian chick was

excellent. I look foward to reading more from you in the future. I'm planning on going to work with a -none OD in

the near future. Hopefully it's a good experience.

[Watcher]

Fuse his handling of this airhead

/ attention seeking immature girl in the circumstances was acceptible it is of course unlikley to affect her in

anyway as she has moved on already - these types dont sit still long enough to notice a good quality guy thye like

being treated like cr@p by these arrogant pigs in the world. A good guy just doesnt equate for them they aint

exciting in their eyes.

Celticbhoy if he keeps looking will come across plenty of attractive but good human

sane girls out there. In the meantime it sounds like he is having a lot of fun with the world lol along the way and

with the pheromones working for him - perception if it works as well as it does with me will really spin him

out.

More fun to come.

[Elvis]

Arone will

make you appear more dependable less lone wolf type
Interesting.



im getting big

time hits with perception latley
What kind of results have you had in the past week or two, Watcher?





I look foward to reading more from you in the future. I'm planning on going to work with a -none

OD in the near future. Hopefully it's a good experience.
Thanks Fuse. I hope the OD goes well. I don't

think it's something I will try again for a while. But, it was certainly an eye opener!

[bjf]

Celtic, it is obvious Chikara would

help you. Wagg probably would to, but I think Chikara would help a bunch. Get that. No need for Perception for

your problem, although that product helps other problems (buildup, extended release).

[belgareth]

The night

started with the Italian girl I’ve been pestering recently. I sent her about 3 text messages last week and she

ignored every one of them. I called her shit by sending an extremely abusive message and calling her a whore. Guess

what…she phones 30 seconds later saying, “I’m sorry…busy/no credit in phone/only received one message not 3, blah,

blah…” I continued to give her shit. It’s sad that I have to get her attention this way, but if she didn’t want to

know me in the first place she could tell me to my face instead of disrespecting me by ignoring me and telling

lies.

We meet in a café. Have coffee. She is uncomfortable, obviously. However, she then asks me to have

dinner/go out to a club later…I said no. She just said it to be polite.
Celticbhoy,

Under my philosophy

she wasn't worth the wasted time and energy; she didn't deserve your attention! After getting ignored twice I

would have written her off as a waste of my time. I'd much rather have spent the time out trying to meet another

lady who might have treated me with a bit more respect. Ok, being abusive to her made you feel good temporarily.

What did you really gain other than the chance to waste some time on somebody that you were unlikely to ever connect

with?

BJF has a good point about Chikara. You should try it, maybe with a small amount of TE or Perception but

try to keep your none levels down. I think you'll have better luck that way.

[Have_Courage]

##########

[Friendly1]

Celtic, you've got

a good head on your shoulders. Some people may think your antics are cruel, but the way you dealt with that Italian

chick was excellent. I look foward to reading more from you in the future. I'm planning on going to work with a

-none OD in the near future. Hopefully it's a good experience.:nono:

While I do encourage guys to

experiment with OD-level applications, I STRONGLY recommend AGAINST trying it out at work or with close friends and

family.

The bolder the experiment, the safer you will be trying it around strangers.

[Knuuttipukki]

I tried 4 sprays of TE

today...more eye contact but no other effects...I´m going to try with 6 or more tomorrow and see what happens. Cold

weather may be the partial reason for this lack of hits.(or perhaps I should try something else)



Btw...Friendly1 is correct...don´t OD at work...if your boss has a bad day he/she´ll propably make you feel it too

;D

Damaged friendship is really tough to repair...

[deepblue]

That was a strange story, you

sound very immature.

[sprayit]

Celticbhoy

I don't

understand the purpose of the mentioned abusive behaviour. If a lady doesn't like you, she doesn't like you. No

use slagging her off when she isn't interested. She is no less a human being for not wanting to bed

you.

There's baseline respect (minimum levels of etiquette expressed say towards some stranger), and

there's 'above baseline respect' which is earned by behaviour, looks, status, or even -mones.

Believing

one is entitled to above baseline levels of respect is in my opinion, one of the less desirable alpha male traits,

and it is only attractive to those who welcome quick casual domination (usually the mightily insecure).

In

contrast to what other posts have said, I believe one absolutely should “take it personally” if a lady

doesn't follow up a call. After all, she chooses to abstain for reasons relating to your personal attributes, be

they your appearance, your manner etc.. and it's her right.

Besides, if we never fail, we never improve.

Anyhow, I admire your sheer honesty and enjoyed your post

[Elvis]

No use

slagging her off when she isn't interested. She is no less a human being for not wanting to bed you.

It

would have been nice for her to tell me to my face she wasn't interested. And I am no less of a human being for

wanting to bed her.

Thanks for comments though.

[Elvis]

That was a

strange story, you sound very immature.
I will try to modify my behaviour. However, at least I recognise I

have a problem, unlike most of the people I seem to come across who are equally to blame, but won't admit it. Their

faults are no less pronounced simply because I have them too.

[belgareth]

I will try to

modify my behaviour. However, at least I recognise I have a problem, unlike most of the people I seem to come across

who are equally to blame, but won't admit it. Their faults are no less pronounced simply because I have them

too.
Recognizing that there are things about yourself you would like to change is a great first step.

Don't worry about what others are doing as some will never figure it out. You're already a step ahead by wanting

to change things about yourself. That's really the hardest part. The next thing is to decide what you want to

differently and how you are going to go about it. Different methods work for different people. Look around, go to

the library and visit bookstores to check out what is available in self help. You might also consider paying for one

of the various personality evaluation (DST is probably the most knowledgable on the forum about them). The results

usually aren't much fun but can be a real eye-opener.

It is never easy to change yourself but it can be very

rewarding.

Good luck

[chococat]

I think I have "OD'ed" on the

copulins a few times. The first few days I used EW, I would take the dropper and scrape it down the side of my upper

arms. One three inch scrape for each arm. This didn't seem like much to me, but it seems like the days that I do

this, I get strange reactions. Keep in mind, I haven't worn copulins to a club, only to my university. For

instance, I spent an hour on campus talking to another student my age today. He's interested in me romantically,

but I'm not interested in him. Everything I said seemed to be some kind of innuendo in his brain. (For instance, I

said something about loving "electronic gadgets" and his first thought was "vibrator.") He actually leaned in to

smell (snort) my hair. Then he hugged me very tightly at some very random and inopportune times.

It was a

very strange experience overall.

[Elvis]

It is never

easy to change yourself but it can be very rewarding.
Thanks, this kind of thing gives me hope. :)





Everything I said seemed to be some kind of innuendo in his brain. (For instance, I said

something about loving "electronic gadgets" and his first thought was "vibrator.")
Welcome to the

pathetic male psyche, chococat! :think:
Most men I know, (myself included) are just like this by nature.





He actually leaned in to smell (snort) my hair. Then he hugged me very tightly at some very random

and inopportune times.
I am the embodiment of this behaviour. I suppose some people can't sing, dance,

drive...or have timing in said situation. Please tell him to his face you're not interested in him romantically and

soon, if you haven't already done so. I'm sure he knows this in his heart already...anyway, but men have an

uncanny ability to only believe what they want to believe unless they are explicitly informed otherwise. This

doesn't mean it has to be awkward. Just do it professionally and fairly...but don't leave him in any doubt and

don't give him any hope whatsoever. You have to be cruel to be kind sometimes.
:whip:

[tiberius]

Definitely let the guy know as

soon as possible and politely as possible that you are interested in him romantically...otherwise wearing the

copulins around him despite whatever you are actually saying/doing his mind will be else where.

[Felstorm]

I know I'm getting

results/reactions/hits or whatever you want to call them, unfortunately they are not the ones I want.


Yeah,

No amount of pheromones will help you Celtic, because your personality and female seeking habits are out

of balance.

Way out of balance.

The first step to changing this is recognition. You've done that. From

what I've gathered, reading your posts, you snap at any little perceived trespass. Gotta cut that out man. It's

one thing to not accept second rate treatment from other people, and another to OD on pheros deliberately and go

looking for harsh reactions.

From all accounts of your behaviour, you seem to be rather angry and bitter

inside. At least toward women. Gotta let that animosity go. Whatever frustration you have, you have to let that go.

Worthwhile women can sense animosity like they can sense a wuss. Women are better at the emotion/body language game

than men are. And you communicate all this non-verbally. The women you desire are being driven off by the

frustration you are harboring in your heart. You may deny this yourself, but other people see it in you. And it's

quite obvious in your behaviours as you have posted here.

Forget the nightclub and bar scene. Stop going

entirely. If you drink, stop. I think the bar-scene has skewed your perception of women. The only women I have ever

met in bars have been the sleazy, manipulative, I-like-to-boff-drunken-assholes, type. They only go after the

abusive assholes, because that it the way alcohol makes people behave. Alcohol literally kills off your braincells.

Do you REALLY want to get involved with someone that regularly and consistently kills off millions of their neurons

every night they go out drinking?

They aren't worth your time. The women that are real treasures will never be

caught dead in a bar, tavern, pub, nightclub. You'll find them in art galleries, libraries, on college campuses, in

stores, enjoying their hobbies, and the street corner at noon on Wednesday.

Bars and nightclubs = Free drinks,

and lots of ego inflating attention to women. Most go there not to actually find someone to have a relationship

with, but to get drunk on someone elses paycheck (yours), and selfishly feed off of attention of men. Something they

don't deserve. They are taking your money and attention and giving nothing back. If they feel like it they'll

sleep with someone if they are drunk enough and the guy is enough of a loser like themselves.

Water always

seeks it's own level. It's obvious that your level is way above that of simple barflies. Thusly your difficulty in

attracting and sleeping with women from that tavern-mentality culture.

It's time to raise the bar for

yourself holmes.

[Elvis]

Thanks, Felstorm...it's

gonna take time.

[belgareth]

CelticBhoy,

Do you have an

exercise regamin? Do you work out in some way? For me, going to the dojo and spending an hour or two exercising and

working with others in a controlled aggression does wonders for my attitude. It also helps to build and reinforce

the self discipline needed to keep my own temper under control. Once you start getting good at any one of the arts

the self confidence also begins to show and that helps in almost every situation.

[Elvis]

I don't have a regime

unfortunately. I think I have a general loathing of social situations. I can't go to a swimming pool for example,

because I don't like the idea of sharing the water with the great unwashed (I've been like that since a child).

Same goes for a gym. Maybe, I could get a weightbench and just invite a friend round to pump some iron. Or seek

professional help! Hehe.

Had any scary real-life encounters where your martial art paid dividends, belgareth.

What do you do exactly...how many weeks, months would it take for such an activity to help with emotional reactions,

IYO?

[Elvis]

Check it out, it's a new me on my

path to spiritual enlightenment.

[belgareth]

I don't have a

regime unfortunately. I think I have a general loathing of social situations. I can't go to a swimming pool for

example, because I don't like the idea of sharing the water with the great unwashed (I've been like that since a

child). Same goes for a gym. Maybe, I could get a weightbench and just invite a friend round to pump some iron. Or

seek professional help! Hehe.

Had any scary real-life encounters where your martial art paid dividends,

belgareth. What do you do exactly...how many weeks, months would it take for such an activity to help with emotional

reactions, IYO?
Professional help might not be a bad idea, it sounds a bit phobic to me. There are others

much more qualified than me to make those kinds of judgments though.

Most people starting out in martial arts

start gaining self confidence within the first few months. Over time it grows as you become more profficient and

earn your belts. Nothing comes for free and that is the important part. You have to earn it.

I've been in one

or two bad situations over the years but that was a long time ago. I learned how to avoid trouble along the way.

Just because I can do something doesn't mean I want to do it. I've also spent a lot of time studying philosophy

and that has helped me a lot, my perspective on life and people has changed a bit.

[Yoel]

I started practicing martial arts

one year ago and my confidence boosted as I increased my experience. But exactly like Bel says, just because I know

how to fight doesn't mean I have to show off. In fact, I have never got into a fight since then. I think it's

really relaxing though.
I for sure am now calmer and more resolute (confident) than a year ago.

Yoel

[InternationalPlayboy]

I

started practicing martial arts one year ago and my confidence boosted as I increased my experience. But exactly

like Bel says, just because I know how to fight doesn't mean I have to show off. In fact, I have never got into a

fight since then. I think it's really relaxing though.
I for sure am now calmer and more resolute (confident)

than a year ago.

Yoel

I think that's part of martial arts training. You learn what to do in a

bad situation, but you also develop your confidence and intuition to the point where you avoid getting into that

type of situation in the first place.

[InternationalPlayboy]

I was a similar type

of person a few years ago. Just getting in my car and driving to the store in the winter, the height of our tourist

season, was enough to send me into a tirade by the time I got home. I was very antisocial and hostile towards people

I didn't know. Meditation turned it around for me.

An easy, "One Minute Meditation" can be found

here (http://www.sivababa.org/SpiritualTeachings/PracticeLibrary/oneMinuteMeditation.asp). I've been using

Siva Baba's techniques now since 1999 and feel they have helped me a lot with relaxation and dealing with others.

Haven't had the more grandiose benefits some claim to have received yet, but I feel it is beneficial just for how

my outlook on life has changed.

Originally into self-hypnosis, I learned about Baba through a Wayne Dyer

Book. Dyer's books might be a good area to pursue in the quest for self-improvment. He also has a meditation tape

out which is based on Siva Baba's technique.

Baba's meditations and claims might not be for you, so like

belgareth said, I recommend checking out the library and bookstores for meditation, self-hypnosis, and relaxation

tapes or CDs. A library would be best as you could "try before you buy," but consider looking in used CD and

bookstores for discounted self-improvement titles too.

[bjf]

Celtic, did you change your name to

elvis?

[InternationalPlayboy]

I should add, even

with meditation, I still have attitude problems if I wear too much Edge. I can only wear a dab or two of that stuff

alone without getting impatient and easily irritated. The meditation practice has helped me to identify my attitude

at the time and also helps to maintain composure.

[Elvis]

Celtic, did you change

your name to elvis?

Yeah, what d'ya think? Rockin' social conscience or what, man! I feel better

already...just don't step on m' blue suede winklepickers, dude. chortle.


I should

add, even with meditation, I still have attitude problems if I wear too much Edge
Thanks for the

meditation tip. I think TE even in low doses does put me on 'edge', never mind this OD business. Do you work with

'nol in the main, then?

[InternationalPlayboy]

Yeah,

what d'ya think? Rockin' social conscience or what, man! I feel better already...just don't step on m' blue

suede winklepickers, dude. chortle.


Thanks for the meditation tip. I think TE even in low doses does

put me on 'edge', never mind this OD business. Do you work with 'nol in the main, then?

I've been

using mainly Chikara and Perception since their introduction. Chikara is my favorite for overall well being and good

reactions from others. Perception makes me feel a bit more assertive and has given me blatent DIHL hits, but it

doesn't give me the "exotic" feeling that I get from wearing Chikara.

Still trying TE on occasion but I

have to wear a "smoother" in conjunction with it, such as Chikara, SOE, or even Pheros, to keep myself from getting

"edgy." (I sometimes wonder if that's the reason for the name, it puts everyone on edge.)

[Watcher]

Ok celticelvis (sorry couldnt

resist)

Being sceptical of women is ok - some deserve to be treated with contempt - there are a few that say

you should be doormat for those types of girls that treat ya like sheet

The way i see it is if she treats ya

with respect then you give it in return if she treats you with contempt like a doormat - you move on - now with miss

italy girl you were right to give her a ribbing - perhaps you could have used a better lot of language or been a bit

smarter about it but basically she was dissing you after initally leading you along and you were right to vent

youre frustratings to her in the manner you did.

You could have even just called her a attention seeking

pricktease and shell never get a decent guy to treat her with respect if she keeps leading them along like she does

(not that any good will come of it of course)

Now of course there are the other types of girls that treat

guys that treat them good with respect and are quick to tell you they aint interested or they are

interested.

Remember women will tell you the opposite of what they really respond to - ie if you treat em

good they will respect you and not string you along - what a load of BS its just a cover so they can make you think

that they wont do that.

You need to learn like i have done to simply judge them by their actions not by their

words remember girls are masters of the verbal game and in most cases if they can talk you into a state of ignorance

they will.

My approach is to guage her respect / contempt / ignorance / responsivenss to me by her actions

and not so much by her words - i can then make a rational - less sexual emotional judgement on her personality and

weather to pursue things further.

If she is responsive - not ignorant without a valid reason ie if shes busy

thats fine but if its a deliberate attempt at avoiding me then of course its going nowhere - but if she does be

responsive etc things could go further.

[Elvis]

Some good points Watcher.

Especially, judging on actions not words.

But...


Ok celticelvis (sorry couldnt

resist)

you can call me Sir from now on! :thumbsup:




I've been

using mainly Chikara and Perception since their introduction. Chikara is my favorite for overall well being and good

reactions from others. Perception makes me feel a bit more assertive and has given me blatent DIHL hits, but it

doesn't give me the "exotic" feeling that I get from wearing Chikara.

Still trying TE on occasion but I have to

wear a "smoother" in conjunction with it, such as Chikara, SOE, or even Pheros, to keep myself from getting "edgy."

(I sometimes wonder if that's the reason for the name, it puts everyone on edge.)

This is eating me up

inside. I have about $90 to play with, obviously I want to make this stretch as far as possible. You know TE makes

me aggro quite easily, OD turns me into Dracula. I still have a lot of it left. I also have SPMO. What do I get?

I've had a lot of opinions but don't feel anything has swung my mind. Do you think the best ones I'd be looking

at are:

1.Chikara
2.Perception
3.AE
4.SOE
5.Pheros.

I know this is rather simplistic to say the least,

but would this be an order of popularity? I think I need a good 'nol/'rone source to take the heat out of TE. One

that smells good. But I really would like to see sexual hits as well as keeping cool with the guys? What are my

options? Could I even manage to sneak a couple of products while keeping to my aims? The possibilities are endless,

especially since I could get packs of SOE/Chikara and still have a lot of dough to spend. Help!!!!! :frustrate

[bjf]

For your cause, I'd get chikara.

The SOE is pretty close to the SPMO....the rone isn't going to make a huge huge difference. A big thing is how it

affects yourself anyway.

Perception won't help your cause because you are still going to want to mix with a

bit of te and I think the none in perception will send you over the edge - AND WE DON'T WANT THAT :). AE is a

standalone, subtle product. Again, I don't see the point really. Might as well get chikara, which has all three

mones of AE, plus four more, and mix with TE.

As for Pheros, that has valerian in it which may relax you

somewhat. But chikara should make you feel better, plus will have more hit power and enhance the te more

greatly.

I guess you pay so much in S&H that you want to get everything you need in one shot. I'd recommend

1. chikara first, do some research on wagg too, as that would suit you but I don't know if you'd use it that much

if you had chikara, and SOE is a solid choice, but again, you have spmo and I am not sure you could justify paying

50 bucks for it then.

[Elvis]

Thanks bjf, I reckon that just

about sums it for me!

[chococat]

Thanks, this kind

of thing gives me hope. :)



Welcome to the pathetic male psyche, chococat! :think:
I am the

embodiment of this behaviour. I suppose some people can't sing, dance, drive...or have timing in said situation.

Please tell him to his face you're not interested in him romantically and soon, if you haven't already done so.



Well, I have already told him I am not interested in anything but friendship (even before I

started wearing the copulins.)

Not sure how to deal with this. This is the problem with females wearing

pheromones. Normally we have a specific target (I do) and forget about all the *other* targets we create

involuntarily by wearing pheromones.

I guess the only up side to this is that perhaps it makes me appear more

attractive in the minds of the guys who have not noticed me. If it works that way at all with men.

[Elvis]

Well, I have

already told him I am not interested in anything but friendship (even before I started wearing the

copulins.)Good for you :thumbsup: If he's giving you touchy-feely stuff, you could just give him the hint

subtly but firmly your using body-language. If that doesn't work, politely pointing out he's in your personal

space may have an effect.

I imagine from your perspective, this really isn't a big deal. Ladies don't view

touchy-feely stuff like men do. Unless he's genuinly creepy, you maybe don't mind. For him, the more

personal/physical contact he gets away with is a sign...the more he assumes you must like him...a little bit

more...a little bit more, etc.

These situations are strange, but when it all comes to a head, I have found

myself on the receiving end too many times. There is many a girl out there who I genuinly have distaste for and

it's all because they were too afraid to spell it out for me. I know this is a problem for both parties. I see guys

all around me at it, hoping...wishing...and the girls hoping and wishing that he'd just go away even for 5 minutes!

I guess it's just a misunderstanding between the sexes. I suppose the situation is the same for a girl liking a guy

who doesn't 'see' her like that. However, maybe more rarely...guys are always looking at girls 'like that',

even the ones they don't even fancy. Wierd isn't it?



I guess the only up side to this is

that perhaps it makes me appear more attractive in the minds of the guys who have not noticed me. If it works that

way at all with men.
It works exactly as you say for both sexes I feel.


This is the

problem with females wearing pheromones. Normally we have a specific target (I do) and forget about all the *other*

targets we create involuntarily by wearing pheromones.
I believe this as likely to be a simple girl/boy

thing as much as anything. I seen this situation a thousand times with people who didn't know about the 'mones.




Hope you get your real target. Was it this guy » :cool: Saw him checkin' you out earlier. Good luck!

[chococat]

Good for you

:thumbsup: If he's giving you touchy-feely stuff, you could just give him the hint subtly but firmly your using

body-language. If that doesn't work, politely pointing out he's in your personal space may have an effect.

I am attempting to do this. I hope it works without hurting his feelings. :frustrate

If you have any advice

about how to do this without hurting feelings, let me know. I really would like to remain his friend, but it seems

like most men don't know how to *do* this.



I imagine from your perspective, this really isn't a

big deal. Ladies don't view touchy-feely stuff like men do. Unless he's genuinly creepy, you maybe don't mind.

For him, the more personal/physical contact he gets away with is a sign...the more he assumes you must like him...a

little bit more...a little bit more, etc.
Thanks for telling me this. I already figured that everytime I

allowed him to hug me or brush bodies with me, I was just giving him a tiny "go!" It's good to see it in writing.

The touchy-feely stuff really *isn't* a big deal to me, as long as it doesn't cross a certain line. I just have

the feeling that this guy is considering me as more of a "girlfriend" as opposed to a "girl who is a friend."





Hope you get your real target. Was it this guy » :cool: Saw him checkin' you out earlier. Good

luck! Oh yeah! ;) ;) ;)

[Friendly1]

I am attempting

to do this. I hope it works without hurting his feelings. :frustrate

If you have any advice about how to do this

without hurting feelings, let me know. I really would like to remain his friend, but it seems like most men don't

know how to *do* this.
Women seem to be totally clueless in only this one area where men are concerned.



Most often, all the agonizing over protecting a man's feelings is what causes him to get hurt in the first place.

Yes, if you just blatantly say, "This will never happen, please move on", he'll be disappointed. If you do it in

a public place, he may even be humiliated.

But if you do it at the first sign of serious interest, most men WILL

move on.

The longer a woman waits to be honest with a man, the more he comes to believe that he has a chance

with her, and the more hurt he ends up suffering when he finally understands she doesn't want him.

I cannot

count all the times I have tried to explain this to women, only to watch them "protect" some poor guy's feelings,

and ultimately ending up with someone "stalking" them, or crying, or otherwise acting totally hurt and crushed.



When men think they have a chance with a woman, they don't listen to her subtle suggestions to get lost.

[chococat]

Women seem to

be totally clueless in only this one area where men are concerned. I have to agree with you. :(





Most often, all the agonizing over protecting a man's feelings is what causes him to get hurt in the first

place. Yes, if you just blatantly say, "This will never happen, please move on", he'll be disappointed. If you do

it in a public place, he may even be humiliated.
I would never do this to anyone. Isn't it a rule that

all bad news should be broken in private? Ontop of that, I consider him a friend, so I would not *dream* of doing

this to him. Ontop of that, I'm honestly flattered to pieces that he thinks this of me, w/ or w/o mones.






But if you do it at the first sign of serious interest, most men WILL move on.
I did this after

he asked, "Do you want to be my girlfriend?" But we do continue to have lunch in the uni cafeteria together on a

weekly basis.


When men think they have a chance with a woman, they don't listen to her subtle

suggestions to get lost.
I think this, too, can go for both sexes.

[Friendly1]

I did this

after he asked, "Do you want to be my girlfriend?" But we do continue to have lunch in the uni cafeteria together on

a weekly basis.It sounds to me like he still has hope, which means he didn't pay attention when you said

"No".

Remember, guys often hear the adage, "No doesn't always mean no" and think, "Yeah, that's what this is.

A 'no' that maybe isn't 'no'."

On the other hand, there are those rare love stories where the guy just

won't let go and the girl eventually realizes he IS the catch.

My brother fell in love with a girl who worked

at a bar where his band played on weekends. He decided she would just have to be his. In her words, "he was all over

me -- he never left me alone."

They've been married more than 20 years, and I don't see any bumps in their

relationship. They are still very close and affectionate.

When I was in college, I would come on strong to the

girls, and they would say, "Let's just be friends", and I would say, "Okay", and just be their friend, and damn if

they didn't fall in love with me after I'd started mooning over someone else.

If love were easy to figure out,

we'd all have what we want right away.

Who wants to go through all the grief and crap?


Anyway -- sounds

like you actually like the guy, but aren't feeling the attraction for him. You could always go out with a few jerks

to remind yourself of why the nice guys really ARE worth pursuing.


Or buy him a bottle of Chikara for

Christmas and see what happens.

[chococat]

Anyway --

sounds like you actually like the guy, but aren't feeling the attraction for him. You could always go out with a

few jerks to remind yourself of why the nice guys really ARE worth pursuing.
You're doing the same

thing he is doing. ;)

I grew up in a very *male* household, so I'm very used to seeing males as friends (that

is, no sexual contact with my family, duh.) Remember that in general, women feel that men and women can be friends

without having any attraction towards eachother. I'm definitely not attracted to him and I couldn't see myself

*ever* being attracted to him. He's been in the "friend zone" ever since I met him and our interests jive. The

only thing we seem to have in common is that we happen to be taking the same class. When he asked me if I wanted to

be his girlfriend, I was utterly in shock. I had given him no signs, body language or intimate (kissing, hugging, et

cetera) contact that could have brought him to believe that I would like this kind of thing. I treat him like I

treat my female friends, so his question really threw me for a loop.

[Friendly1]

...Remember

that in general, women feel that men and women can be friends without having any attraction towards

eachother....I mean this in the kindest, gentlest, George Bush Seniorist way when I say, "Chickweed, you

have MUCH to learn about men."

Especially YOUNG men.

They are re-evaluating every girl they know constantly.

They notice when her breasts poke out of her sweater. They notice when she leans over or kneels and shows off her

sweet, curvaceous butt. They notice how smooth and silky her hair is. They breathe deep when she is wearing THAT

perfume. They curse the sons-of-b*tches who get to go out with (and sleep with) their "friends".


...I'm

definitely not attracted to him and I couldn't see myself *ever* being attracted to him. He's been in the "friend

zone" ever since I met him and our interests jive. The only thing we seem to have in common is that we happen to be

taking the same class. When he asked me if I wanted to be his girlfriend, I was utterly in shock. I had given him no

signs, body language or intimate (kissing, hugging, et cetera) contact that could have brought him to believe that I

would like this kind of thing.See, women just don't get it. Look at it from the evolutionary point of view.

Men didn't ASK women to be their mates. They strode in, knocked a few heads around, and took the bodacious female

of their choice. The ones who failed were probably killed off, or fled to the hills to try again until they could

pull it off.

Men are programmed to just WANT women. We don't care whether you have chosen us. We see you bend

over, we think, OHMYGOD! THAT BODY WAS BRED FOR MAKING BABIES. *MY* BABIES!

The emotional stuff happens because

you're NICE to him, spend time with him. Intuitively, that tells him that you feel safe with him, so he gets to be

your big, brawny protector.


I treat him like I treat my female friends, so his question really threw me

for a loop.Remember: He's NOT a girl. He's a GUY. He has his own agenda. If you don't want to be a part

of it, then be scarce.

It's probably too late to avoid hurting his feelings, but the longer you allow this

situation to continue, the more hurt (and angry) he will be in the end.

[Watcher]

Good advice friendly - tell him

you find him unattractive - make up something about wanting a guy that doesnt look like him at all.

be nice

and let him know yu just want to be friends. At least then he can sulk for a while then pull himself together and

go find a real girlfriend

He might spend a bit less time with you in that case but if he is wanting a girl

he is going to devote his time elsehwere but at least you let him know up front that its just friends and thats it =

you should be able to keep the friendship as well all going well

JUST DONT STRING HIM ALONG - HE WILL END UP

HATING YOU FOR THAT IF YOU DO AND ANY FUTURE FRIENDSHIP WILL ALSO BE GONE.

Sorry to shout im sure youre

already aware of this but i have been strung along before so this bit of watcher advice is directed at any girls

reading this thread in a similar situtaiton.

[bjf]

Being friends with an attractive girl

is not fullfilling. Having sex and being friends with her is, so men will always strive to be more than just friends

if you are attractive and he is single.

[Elvis]

Being friends with an

attractive girl is not fullfilling. Having sex and being friends with her is, so men will always strive to be more

than just friends if you are attractive and he is single.

Absolutely. Being "just friends" with almost

any girl (attractive or less so) is torture, almost to the point of it being impossible, in my experience. A man

will want to do any girl that doesn't physically repulse him...that includes all of his female friends. This is as

important to the man as is the friendship is to the woman. It's not the thought of losing the friendship that stops

a man from making a move on his female friend...it's rejection.

Chococat, men and woman think very differently.

Men want IT from everyone, women want IT only from a select few, women need

companionship...men don't.

I would tell this guy straight out. He probably won't get the hint otherwise.

Isn't life strange?

[bjf]

I do kind of feel bad for her. She

did reject him once and he didn't really get the point. She really did nothing wrong, yet the situation obviously

isn't great. It is probably best to just not make friends with guys you are not interested in unless they are gay

or are with somebody already. If you do, have some friends for him t try and get with. Otherwise, our goals just

clash. Because yea, we don't need companionship. We can get that from our hairy friends or the tv. We need

intimacy.

[CptKipling]

chococat,

I really don't

want it to seem as though we are ganging up on you, but...

I've had a few friends go to pieces over this sort

of thing, please please please put him straight before it gets any worse. I've had more than my fair share of

seeing this kind of thing from the outside, only recently I had a friend do it with two consecutive girls, stupid

bugger doesn't learn. He WILL end up hating you if you don't change it, and unfortunately the longer it goes on

the less likely it is you'll be friends afterwards.

[MOBLEYC57]

It's not nice waving candy in

front of a babies face knowing he wants/will want it, and not give him a piece.

<Chococat>:whip: You know the time & lunches has him STILL hoping, you n a u g h t y

gurl! Who pays for lunch? :think: Tell the truth, shame the devil! :thumbsup:

Now ... back to the OD report.

:wave: Someone was saying .........

[chococat]

You know the

time & lunches has him STILL hoping, you n a u g h t y gurl! Who pays for lunch? :think: Tell the

truth, shame the devil! :thumbsup:

!

Moi, moi, moi! I know better than to let a man pay for

something if I'm not interested in him! It's my favorite subtle way of showing a lack of interest. I'm going to

have a talk with him soon, as in, Monday.

[MOBLEYC57]

!

Moi, moi,

moi! I know better than to let a man pay for something if I'm not interested in him! It's my favorite subtle way

of showing a lack of interest. I'm going to have a talk with him soon, as in, Monday.
:type: Then at

number 2 on that list of favorite subtle way of showing a lack of interest, you need to add .... and I

don't spend time with him either, 'cause deep down inside, he's hoping things change. Ever have a deep

interest in someone that wasn't interested in you? What do you think would be running through your mind if you

continually did lunch with'em? :lovestruc Would you be hoping that things change? Ya damn skippy! If it was me,

I'd say cool when you talked to me, but I'd still eat wit'ya, hoping that I'd soon get to eat ya! :cheers:

Anywho, enough of me minding your business ... come get your spanking fer being so bad, and acting like you

weren't!:whip:

[Fuse]

!

Moi, moi,

moi! I know better than to let a man pay for something if I'm not interested in him! It's my favorite subtle way

of showing a lack of interest. I'm going to have a talk with him soon, as in, Monday.


ahh so

that's what that means... I always thought the girl was just being polite. But next time a chick refuses to let me

pay for her food, then I'm just going to get up and walk out. WHAT AN INSULT!

[bjf]

She's not a tease, so let's not

treat her like one.

[Have_Courage]

##########

[MOBLEYC57]

ahh so that's what

that means... I always thought the girl was just being polite. But next time a chick refuses to let me pay for her

food, then I'm just going to get up and walk out. WHAT AN INSULT!
Slow your role, Fuse! :nono: You have

to understand that just because one person does something for one reason, another person could have a whole NEW

different reason for doing the same thing ... like wanting to feel indebt, or not wanting the man to think he's

getting some, or just wanting to be different than all of those that thinks a man should pay. Once you get to know

someone, you'll pretty much undestand why they do things ... most of it is NOT personal, but we take it as such.



Good day! :wave:

[bjf]

Good point Mobley. I've always taken

it as a sign the woman will not let you court her. I guess since everyone's different and one subtle sign could

mean one thing while another nothing at all, the only way to really know where everyone stands is through verbal

communication, direct at that. Problem is, that's just not as suspenseful, is it?

[chococat]

ahh so that's what

that means... I always thought the girl was just being polite. But next time a chick refuses to let me pay for her

food, then I'm just going to get up and walk out. WHAT AN INSULT! Hahaha! I don't think it *always* means

that. I mean, if you explicitly offer to pay (i.e. "I'll get it.") and she says, "No, no, I have money to pay for

my own," that's probably a putdown. On the other hand, if no one says anything about the money and the man and

woman just *put down* money without discussing the bill, that's the woman being polite and attempting to let you

know that she's not a gold digger. Come with money and don't say, "So, how are we going to pay this?" This is such

a turnoff to me. If I'm interested in the guy, I'd rather just not discuss the bill at all or assume that he's

going to pay (he asked me out, right?)

At least that's how I view it. If you are suddenly reminded of

chococat on a date, then maybe you're dealing with a similar female. ;)

Thank you for your advice,

HaveCourage. Honestly, I think women are more verbal than men and we just need to *hear* things. All women have

worked out their own little "systems" for catching men and weeding through the ones they aren't interested in. The

more tactful the girl, the more likely she'll give you ambiguous signals. :(

[Yoel]

Why should the guy pay? That's

just SO wussy. (ah I get it, the guy asked for a date, not my field)

Back to the topic, he's totally into

you. And I agree with what's being said, men can NOT be just friends with an attractive gal, we are wild. A man

that limits himself isn't a man.

Don't spend time with him! Especially not just the two of you! If you are

in a group then it's fine. Here, that's a good way to make him understand without hurting him: while in a group,

don't pay attention to him. If you keep this up he'll grow tired of it, provided he's not a door

mat.

Yoel

[chococat]

Why should the guy

pay? That's just SO wussy. (ah I get it, the guy asked for a date, not my field)


Well, it's very

alpha male when you think about it. It's showing that you're not cheap and that you have at least a small amount

of money at your dispense. Even if you do this at McDonald's, it will probably make a good impression.

[Yoel]

Paying = alpha male? You're either

basically telling me 98% of the guys who walk on earth are alpha, or you have a really weird perspective

:)

Paying is needy, as in, I need to pay to keep you interested (and to give you gifts and to tell you

you're beautiful and to bow at your mere presence).

What if I say I'd be offended if the girl didn't pay

for me? Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around? :)

Yoel

[MOBLEYC57]

Well, it's very

alpha male when you think about it. It's showing that you're not cheap and that you have at least a small amount

of money at your dispense.
Hmmmmmmm, that depends on the mentality of the woman ... I'll pay, even if I

don't have much money, but I'd better get treated down the line (to lunch/dinner), or she gets kick to the curb if

I read a "men should always pay" type attitude.

I use to do go on a little trip with a woman, and after about

three trips, I asked why she never drove US, and she said, "I'm keeping you company, and men are suppose to

drive." Needless to say, after that, I started going on my little trip solo. :thumbsup:

There are all different

types out there ... I pay attention to see if I wanna spend the time. :cheers:

[Friendly1]

!

Moi, moi,

moi! I know better than to let a man pay for something if I'm not interested in him! It's my favorite subtle way

of showing a lack of interest. I'm going to have a talk with him soon, as in, Monday.
While I was out

galavanting around today, I remembered some friends in college. I have decided to share this little anecdote with

you. I hope it does NOT come to this for you, but if it does, well, there is still hope for a graceful exit.




The Anecdote
I was very active in student organizations when I was college. One year, I started hearing my guy

friends refer to "Katie" (not her real name). "Katie" was hot, stacked like a battleship, great chest, whoa whoa

whoa!, va-va-voom, etc. After a couple of weeks of hearing this, my curiosity got the better of me and I arranged

to be in an office when "Katie" showed up.

Okay, she was curvaceous but otherwise not my cup of tea.

Nonetheles, she had become popular with my friends so I befriended her in the only appropriate way for a young man:

I accepted her as part of the group and otherwise ignored her.

Well, I learned along the way that Katie had been

engaged the previous year, but she either caught her fiance cheating on her or he lied in some major, massive way.

Because of that experience, she was turning down dates right and left. I never bothered to ask her out, but I think

she politely warned me off one day because so many guys were coming at her she just assumed I might be interested,

too.

Now, one of my friends, call him "Little Joe", decided he and Katie were meant for each other. He did

everything he could to date her. She liked him as a friend but refused steadfastly to date him. They MIGHT have

gone out once for something casual.

Months passed.

One day, I was visiting "Big Joe", another friend. Big

Joe said to me, "If Little Joe doesn't do something soon, I'm going to ask Katie out." Well, trying not to meddle

too much, I politely reminded him that Katie didn't seem too interested in dating anyone, much less Little Joe.

Big Joe said he thought Katie might indeed be interested in him. I left it at that and hoped my friend wouldn't be

shot down.

Soon thereafter, Big Joe asked Katie out, and they began dating quietly. I and maybe one other

friend knew they were seeing each other.

Somewhere along the way, I lost touch with the group for a while. I

started to hear mentions of a "Penny", some cute girl who was now hanging with the group. Whatever.

One day, I

was sitting in a student office and Katie came in with Little Joe and another girl. Call the other girl Penelope.

I had met Penelope a couple of years before and hadn't been very interested in her. I thought she was a bit of a

flake when I first met her. I guess she always struck people as that.

Anyway, Katie and I started talking about

something and Penelope and Little Joe joined in the conversation once in a while. But then Penelope got up and

walked out, saying she had to go do something. Katie fell silent. Little Joe stood up, went to the doorway,

paused, looked back at Katie, and then followed Penelope.

Katie was ECSTATIC! She burst out, "He went after

her! He went after her!"

Now, me, I'm pretty slow when it comes to untangling cryptic remarks from women. I

had no clue as to what just happened. I said, "Huh?"

Katie said, "He went after Penny!"

I said, "Who the

H*** is Penny? I keep hearing about her."

Katie goes, "THAT was Penny! The girl who just left here."

Me:

"THAT was Penny? I thought her name was Penelope!"

Katie: "Her name IS Penelope. But everyone calls her Penny.

We've been friends for a few years."

Me: "Wow. I met her two years ago and I just never put you two together

as friends."

Katie: "It was more of a high school thing. But I decided she might be a good match for Little

Joe."

Me: "Huh?"

Katie explained that when Little Joe learned Big Joe was dating Katie, Little Joe went

through the roof. He had been arranging to sit next to Katie at every group function (lunches, dinners, games,

movies, WHATEVER). Most people just assumed that she was tolerating his company because she didn't want to date

anyone.

Well, his jealous explosion was the last straw. Katie realized she couldn't stay with the group AND

keep tormenting Little Joe, so she decided to invite Penny/Penelope to participate in some of the group's social

functions.

It took about a month, as I recall, but Little Joe eventually made that choice to follow after

Penelope. I don't think he ever actually caught on to the fact that Katie had set them up. I don't think ANYONE

ever knew she had done that except Katie, Big Joe, and me.

Katie and Big Joe ended up getting married (they are

still happily married today). Penny and Little Joe also ended up getting married (THEY are still happily married

today).

I don't believe the two couples see each other any more, but that whole group from college became so

large and so dramatic we ended up diverging into multiple little paths. I try to stay in touch with several of my

old friends, and through them I hear about many of the others.

Anyway, that is a long anecdote, but maybe

you'll find something useful in it if your talk with this guy doesn't go well on Monday.

I am not suggesting

you owe it to him to fix him up with anyone. I am only illustrating how Katie turned a bad situation into something

positive when she just became totally frustrated with Little Joe's unwelcome persistence.

It's an option you

may want to keep in your back pocket in case the talk bears no fruit.

[Watcher]

Push his attention elsewhere is

another option

If he was like me he would pick up on the not interested hint - move on quickly - if it is

early enough i would keep it casual friends otherwise i would reduce the time spent with her if she reciprated i

would after a while cut contact if she got a little upset might take hte time to keep doing the friends

thing

But as an alpha mentality (for the guys and lurker guys reading this thread) its all about accepting

the not interested signal - strong ones anyway at face value and looking for the "im interested" signals and then if

you in turn like her follow it up

Id rather much an easier time in getting a girl that is actually interested

(even if slightly less attractive) than chasing the 8 outta 10 stuck up type who will only string you along and then

play ya for a fool. (chocolat you really need to set him straight and lets hope he gets the "hint") if he doesnt

you just need to make youreself less available time wise - go out with other friends and spend less time with him or

divert his attention elsewhere.

[chococat]

Paying = alpha

male? You're either basically telling me 98% of the guys who walk on earth are alpha, or you have a really weird

perspective :)

Paying is needy, as in, I need to pay to keep you interested (and to give you gifts and to

tell you you're beautiful and to bow at your mere presence).

What if I say I'd be offended if the girl

didn't pay for me? Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around? :)



Yoel Paying is definitely *not* needy. Not if you do it in the right manner. I'd say the guy who does it

naturally as if it's what he's been taught to do pulls it off best. If you come off like you're angling for pussy

when you pay (desperate,) then don't pay. I said earlier on this board (somewhere) that if you can combine chivalry

with confidence, you've got her under your thumb. I mean that you *should* pay if you are romantically interested

in a woman, because ontop of assuming that you can afford it, she'll assume that this is "what your mama taught

you." Brownie points! When you pay, you're saying *many* things about yourself. You won't believe how many times I

have heard women refer to a man as "cheap" because he didn't pay. I admit it's a real turnoff if a guy asks me out

and then doesn't pay. He doesn't get another date and he *definitely* doesn't get physical with me.

I read

a webpage somewhere about body language and how women sometimes do not allow the man to pay because they don't want

to create a sense of "debt." (i.e. I payed for your dinner so open your legs, missy.)

I expressed this in a

different manner. I will pay if I want to keep things friendly and non-romantic. But it could possibly cause a girl

to feel indebted somehow to you (in a small way.)


P.S. 98% of males pay? Are you kidding? Maybe in other

countries, but I think feminism really f*ed this one up for the women who like to be treated like a lady. You know

that in other countries, when they split the bill, they don't call it, "going Dutch," they call it "going

American."

[Yoel]

Paying is

definitely *not* needy. Not if you do it in the right manner. I'd say the guy who does it naturally as if it's

what he's been taught to do pulls it off best. [...] I said earlier on this board (somewhere) that if you can

combine chivalry with confidence, you've got her under your thumb.
When did paying become chivalrous? I

know many ways to be the most awesome gentleman, and none of them include money. And that definitely doesn't mean

that I'm cheap, because I actually am the opposite.


I mean that you *should* pay if you are

romantically interested in a woman,
WHAT? I won't even comment on this.

Let me quote myself

though, since you cunningly evaded my remark:
"What if I say I'd be offended if the girl didn't pay for me?

Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around?"

Yoel

[tiberius]

Just to jump in with my 2

cents...

The whole argument is based on tradition. Traditionally speaking offering to pay for a meal when on a

date is just something you do (as a man), or at least that's how I was taught. It never has been the other way

around. As for chivalry, paying for dinner is just a modern adaptation of an old set of standards of proper

gentlemanly behavior. Just like openning the door and letting her enter first, walking on the side of her most

likely to encounter danger (as in if on a sidewalk walking on the side closest to the road), pulling out the chair

and seating her at dinner, standing up from the table when she leaves and returns, and many of these things aren't

even related to being romantic...they are just the way you are supposed to act when you are around a woman (ie the

door thing etc).

To address your response about being offended if she didnt pay...I would be offended if I was

on a date (and we both KNEW it was a date) and I wasn't allowed to pay for dinner...stems from the whole being able

to offer security and protection (not necessarily financial but being protective in a small thing leads to having

the opportunity to be protective in a larger thing).

Like I said this is just my 2 cents and how I was raised.

I have always received compliments for my mannerisms from women.

[Yoel]

Just to jump in

with my 2 cents...

The whole argument is based on tradition. Traditionally speaking offering to pay for a

meal when on a date is just something you do (as a man), or at least that's how I was taught. It never has been the

other way around. As for chivalry, paying for dinner is just a modern adaptation of an old set of standards of

proper gentlemanly behavior. Just like openning the door and letting her enter first, walking on the side of her

most likely to encounter danger (as in if on a sidewalk walking on the side closest to the road), pulling out the

chair and seating her at dinner, standing up from the table when she leaves and returns, and many of these things

aren't even related to being romantic...they are just the way you are supposed to act when you are around a woman

(ie the door thing etc).
Hey, I'm totally for a good dose of chivalry. Opening doors, the sidewalk rule,

pulling chairs are all great things to do. Because those aren't showoffs.


To address your

response about being offended if she didnt pay...I would be offended if I was on a date (and we both KNEW it was a

date) and I wasn't allowed to pay for dinner...stems from the whole being able to offer security and protection

(not necessarily financial but being protective in a small thing leads to having the opportunity to be protective in

a larger thing).
You'd be offended? That's because you need to prove you would be able to protect her

and can't convey that impression otherwise. You have to work on your persona, you sound a little insecure. I mean

that in the nicest way possible.
Besides, I wasn't talking about a guy asking a gal for a date (?), like it's a

favor the girl does to him. Is she so kind for letting you "loser" "take her out"? I'd say she's as lucky as I am

when we hang out.


Like I said this is just my 2 cents and how I was raised. I have always

received compliments for my mannerisms from women.
I do too. If you didn't pay, you would receive them

anyway. It's the other things that you do.

PS: You stated "just my two cents" TWICE in your post. Then you

closed with "I'm right because other people tell me so". You need to respect yourself more, I bet you are a great

guy. Feel your power, you are just as confident as you allow yourself to be.

Yoel

[tiberius]

You'd be

offended? That's because you need to prove you would be able to protect her and can't convey that impression

otherwise.
Yoel Its not that I can't convey the impression of being able to offer protection and

security in any other way besides paying for dinner. Its about earning trust with something as small as this

(subconscienously) as a stepping stone for her openning up more with larger things, making herself more vunerable.

Before a woman will open up to you with things that you could hurt her with you have to show that you won't abuse

the information or whatever she is willing to give up to you. The trust has to start somewhere it doesnt just appear

instantly--on a first date 99% of the time you aren't going to learn about the deepest most personal things about

your date. Thats the type of "large" things you have to work your way up to in order to reach them. Starting to

climb the ladder of trust has to begin with one rung. Being allowed to pay for dinner is a VERY VERY small thing,

but it can be that first rung.

When I said offended, I didn't mean that I would be disgusted or like what the

he!!???. I meant that if I offered to pay for dinner and she absolutely refused to let me pay (her offering to pay,

but then letting me isn't what I am talking about) would send up a huge red flag for me. I would be thinking

"wonder whats up with that??" This is all about being trusted...by letting a man pay for dinner the woman is saying

"Ill let you get this, but I am trusting you not to expect anything from me for letting you do it." If the girl

won't let me pay then that strikes me as her not feeling comfortable enough with me to not do that and thereby not

being protective of her.

A lot of this is just part of the subliminal mind games that people play when

involving dating. Most women just won't come out and say I'm not letting you do this because I think you are going

to try and take advantage of it later, but prefer to use more subtle hints in the hopes that one of them will be

able to snake through that large thick male skull of ours.

I am actually very confident and secure in just

about everything I do...Im the elected president of my fraternity and I am also getting married this summer

:thumbsup:

[Friendly1]

Some guys make paying for dates

look like a loser's only hope of getting sex. Dating is about getting to know people. If a man is romantically

interested in a woman, he needs to let her know that he is interesting, fun, and creative. But if she is a woman who

wants to know whether the guy is relationship material, he needs to demonstrate he won't try to sponge off her. He

needs to show that he is potential husband/provider material. So, he pays.

Paying for the date is just a way of

demonstrating your financial success. If you go into it thinking, "Well, I'm paying for the date, so I should get

something out of it" (like a kiss, or anything), then you are better off going to a prostitute.

When should a

guy pay? When the girl he dates is someone who is interested in him. Period. A lot of guys make the mistake of

dating women who are not interested in them. They hope that by paying for the dates, the women realize (through

interacting with them) that they are great guys. But if you cannot get the woman interested before the date, you're

probably not going to get her interested after you pay. After all, you're just counting on the "I'm a good

provider" facet of your personality to intrigue her. Most American women won't go for that. They want more: someone

who makes them laugh, makes them feel comfortable, makes them feel sexy without creeping them out.

You're

supposed to do all that BEFORE you date her. By the time you get to the date, she should be asking herself if you

have potential.


And first dates don't have to be blockbuster, pull-out-all-the-stops expensive dates. In

fact, they should NOT be. A first date can be relatively low-key, inexpensive, even SPONTANEOUS (unplanned, just

set it up on the spot and then spend the time together).

[Yoel]

Its not that I

can't convey the impression of being able to offer protection and security in any other way besides paying for

dinner. Its about earning trust with something as small as this (subconscienously) as a stepping stone for her

openning up more with larger things, making herself more vunerable. Before a woman will open up to you with things

that you could hurt her with you have to show that you won't abuse the information or whatever she is willing to

give up to you. The trust has to start somewhere it doesnt just appear instantly--on a first date 99% of the time

you aren't going to learn about the deepest most personal things about your date. Thats the type of "large" things

you have to work your way up to in order to reach them. Starting to climb the ladder of trust has to begin with one

rung. Being allowed to pay for dinner is a VERY VERY small thing, but it can be that first rung.

When I said

offended, I didn't mean that I would be disgusted or like what the he!!???. I meant that if I offered to pay for

dinner and she absolutely refused to let me pay (her offering to pay, but then letting me isn't what I am talking

about) would send up a huge red flag for me. I would be thinking "wonder whats up with that??" This is all about

being trusted...by letting a man pay for dinner the woman is saying "Ill let you get this, but I am trusting you not

to expect anything from me for letting you do it." If the girl won't let me pay then that strikes me as her not

feeling comfortable enough with me to not do that and thereby not being protective of her.
First things

first. If you offer to pick up the tab and the girls doesn't let you no-matter-what, then something is wrong, and

you are right on that.
Probably we come from different backgrounds. I prefer eliciting feelings with mutual

feelings and then letting them flow. You talk about "earning" her trust, I personally don't think paying dinner is

the right way to do it. I actually don't think you should have to earn anything she doesn't. Like I said in the

following unquoted part of my post, she should earn my trust too. We are at the same level, I'm against idolatry.

That said, to each his own.


I am actually very confident and secure in just about everything

I do...Im the elected president of my fraternity and I am also getting married this summer

:thumbsup:
Good for you ;) (Wish you luck :) )
Nonetheless, you just had to prove it externally,

telling me you have the approval of your gf and of your pals. Confidence comes from the inside.
I'd have been

more impressed by "I am actually very confident and secure in everything I do :)".

Yoel

[Friendly1]

Well, in America, at least, if

you don't pay for dinner, you don't make much of an impression.

Even so, too many guys end up paying for

dinner with someone who isn't interested in anything other than dinner.

Women have bought me lunch and dinner,

and drinks (happened yesterday, as a matter of fact). I'm not insulted. I buy women lunch and dinner. Sometimes

I have a relationship with them, sometimes I don't.

Sometimes I'm just being generous.

It's no big

deal.

[tiberius]

True, like I said though paying

for dinner is something I consider VERY VERY miniscule in the grand scheme, and I agree there is much more to be

gained by connecting on the emotional level rather than just showering in gifts and such.

Thanks for the

well-wishing, and the only reason I even mentioned that is becuase its hard to express emotion out of a text file

;-)

[Yoel]

Well, in America,

at least, if you don't pay for dinner, you don't make much of an impression.

Even so, too many guys end up

paying for dinner with someone who isn't interested in anything other than dinner.

Women have bought me

lunch and dinner, and drinks (happened yesterday, as a matter of fact). I'm not insulted. I buy women lunch and

dinner. Sometimes I have a relationship with them, sometimes I don't.

Sometimes I'm just being

generous.

It's no big deal.
If you feel at ease and "it's not a big deal" when you pay for

lunch, then fine. You also accept the opposite and you don't really care. I was questioning the fact that you

"should" do it to prove or earn something. As a matter of fact, I do pay when I feel like to, and I get treated

other times. If a woman judges me on the basis of that, it's her problem, I'm not trying to "impress"

anyone.

Yoel

[tiberius]

Well, in

America, at least, if you don't pay for dinner, you don't make much of an impression.

First

impressions are very important, and not even offering to get dinner tends to leave a negative after-taste.



After you've been dating for a while it isn't really a factor at all. Like now, sometimes I get dinner and

sometimes my gf does--neither of us give it a second thought. Its just about that inital impression.

[Friendly1]

If you feel at ease

and "it's not a big deal" when you pay for lunch, then fine. You also accept the opposite and you don't really

care. I was questioning the fact that you "should" do it to prove or earn something.
You still don't

understand.

It IS about proving something. However, some guys mistakenly believe it is a means to an end (that

is, they think they can EARN it). And there ARE some women who WILL let you earn something that way, but most

won't.

Guys who sneer at paying for dates seem to share a common mythology about seduction. I've noticed in

browsing a few seduction forums that guys brag about not paying for dates. Few of them seem to have wives,

girlfriends, or any sort of stable relationships. Whether they actually get all the sex they claim to is another

matter altogether.

Dating is not about sex. Dating is about figuring out whether you are attracted to an

interesting, well-rounded person or a psychotic axe-murderer.

This appears to be another of those situations

where guys just don't get it about the girls. To the girls, it IS extremely important. They judge us on

everything we say and do. If they just want a roll in the hay, they aren't likely to go to all the trouble and

effort of enticing some guy to ask them out on a date.

[chococat]

This

appears to be another of those situations where guys just don't get it about the girls. To the girls, it IS

extremely important. They judge us on everything we say and do. This is so true, Friendly1. Dating is just

like a male peacock spreading his feathers. The female sits back and watches, analyzes, and decides who she's going

to keep and who gets a "Next!" Evolutionary psychology is important. :)

As long as these men keep being proud

of *not* paying for dates, they are going to get low quality women. You get out what you put in. A keepable woman

will expect a gentleman, I promise. I'm not trying to f*ck anyone over here. It seems like sometimes my comments

are being taken as me attempting to make things better for other women. Honestly, I don't *care* what you do with

other women because it's not *me*. I already *know* my boundaries and I am pretty good at avoiding being taken

advantage of. We're all here because we have a desire for *something*, whether it be sex or love or popularity or

power.

I'm trying to give you all some insight into how I believe women work in hopes that you'll give me

some insight into how men work.

[bjf]

Ok, some people aren't comfortable

with the whole watching, analyzing and decision making process. They are trying to shift the balance of power to

equal footing. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be on the short end of power. Some head strong or

frustrated people choose to fight it. It is about getting back control they feel they've

lost.

Unfortunately, men product the number of sperm in a second that women produce of eggs in a lifetime, so

I don't think we'll ever be on equal footing in the dating regard. Going after women who aren't as good looking

as you might help level the playing field though.

[Felstorm]

I'm trying to

give you all some insight into how I believe women work in hopes that you'll give me some insight into how men

work. Well.

I find that traditional "dating", actually works against men. It's taught a lot of us

bad habits, like thinking if we buy women lots of things, they'll love us back.

It obviously doesn't work

that way.

I know I used to think a lot like that. And it only made me look desperate and needy.

I

refuse to buy dinner for any woman. Not on the first date anyway.

[Friendly1]

Well.

I

find that traditional "dating", actually works against men. It's taught a lot of us bad habits, like thinking if we

buy women lots of things, they'll love us back.
Nonsense. No one worth their salt would ever advocate

trying to buy a woman's affection. You earn her respect and admiration by demonstrating that you are an

interesting, respectful, safe gentleman.

But if you ask a woman to have dinner with you, you are asking her to

forego all other opportunities for companionship, fun, and an interesting time. There is nothing wrong with paying

for the dinner. If she decides she doesn't want to see you again, one of her options is to insist on paying for

her own meal. It's up to you to read between the lines.

Dating is not about scoring. Some of you young guys

act like you think that is what it's all about, and it's not. That is why your experiences have been

disappointing.

If a guy wants a relationship (not a one-night-stand) with a quality girl, he had better be

prepared to show her that he is potential husband material. If she decides she wants more dates with him, then

wants him to be her boyfriend, she'll offer to pay on occasion, make him dinner on occasion, etc. He doesn't end

up paying all the time.

It's NOT about sex. It's NOT about buying a woman's affection. It's about showing

you have some potential as a keeper.

[MOBLEYC57]

If she

decides she wants more dates with him, then wants him to be her boyfriend, she'll offer to pay on

occasion, make him dinner on occasion, etc. He doesn't end up paying all the time.

It's NOT about sex.

It's NOT about buying a woman's affection. It's about showing you have some potential as a keeper.


My thoughts exactly, Signor Friendly! That's my kind of QUALITY GIRL! I THINK you'll always have that

when one is acting from the heart. :wave:

[Darkman84]

If a guy

wants a relationship (not a one-night-stand) with a quality girl, he had better be prepared to show her that he is

potential husband material. If she decides she wants more dates with him, then wants him to be her boyfriend,

she'll offer to pay on occasion, make him dinner on occasion, etc. He doesn't end up paying all the time.


That's true for most cases. Good point. I happen to know that usually, a good 85-90% of the time, if the woman is

interested in the guy as he is into her, she won't let him pay ALL the time. It's her way of showing him that

SHE'S a keeper, as you said that when men pay, we show her we could be a keeper. Also, you may find that she wants

to go out and eat less as the relationship gets more serious, and she'll spend time and money buying grocieries and

cooking for YOU at her place. Yet another way she shows that she is a kepper and wants to KEEP YOU AROUND.

Just

pure wisdom coming from the man called Friendly. I'm smart enough to realize that at 20, I could learn this now and

eliminated certain problems when it comes to dating later in life. Educate us, man!!:thumbsup: