View Full Version : Ironic, isn't it?
belgareth
11-06-2004, 05:59 AM
Americans Flock to Canada's Immigration Web Site
Fri Nov 5, 2:22 PM ET By David Ljunggren
OTTAWA (Reuters) -
The number of U.S. citizens visiting Canada's main immigration Web site has shot up six-fold as Americans flirt
with the idea of abandoning their homeland after President Bush's election win this week.
"When we looked at the first day after the election, Nov. 3, our Web
site hit a new high, almost double the previous record high," immigration ministry spokeswoman Maria Iadinardi said
on Friday.
On an average day some 20,000 people in the United States
log onto the Web site, www.cic.gc.ca -- a figure which rocketed to 115,016 on Wednesday. The number of
U.S. visits settled down to 65,803 on Thursday, still well above the norm.
Bush's victory sparked speculation that disconsolate Democrats and others might decide to start a new life in
Canada, a land that tilts more to the left than the United States.
Would-be immigrants to Canada can apply to become permanent resident, a process that often takes a year. The
other main way to move north on a long-term basis is to find a job, which requires a work permit.
But please spare the sob stories.
Asked whether an applicant would be looked upon more sympathetically
if they claimed to be a sad Democrat seeking to escape four more years of Bush, Iadinardi replied: "There would be
no weight given to statements of feelings."
Canada is one of the few
major nations with an large-scale immigration policy. Ottawa is seeking to attract between 220,000 and 240,000
newcomers next year.
"Let's face it, we have a population of a
little over 32 million and we definitely need permanent residents to come to Canada," said Iadinardi. "If we could
meet (the 2005) target and go above it, the more the merrier."
But
right now it is too early to say whether the increased interest will result in more applications.
"There is no unusual activity occurring at our visa missions (in the
United States). Having someone who intends to come to Canada is not the same as someone actually putting in an
application," said Iadinardi.
"We'll only find out whether there
has been an increase in applications in six months."
The waiting
time to become a citizen is shorter for people married to Canadians, which prompted the birth of a satirical Web
site called www.marryanamerican.ca.
The idea of increased
immigration by unhappy Americans is triggering some amusement in Canada. Commentator Thane Burnett of the Ottawa Sun
newspaper wrote a tongue-in-cheek guide to would-be new citizens on Friday.
"As Canadians, you'll have to learn to embrace and use all the products and culture of Americans,
while bad-mouthing their way of life," he said.
DrSmellThis
11-06-2004, 03:03 PM
Amusing article, but based in truth. One of my best friends is leaving to Portugal because of the "election." I've
heard several others in my circle discuss emigrating. I have to admit I've thought of it. Thoughtful people must
know there is a serious problem in this country when they see people virtually abandoning their families and friends
to get out. Emigration doesn't lie. This is for many the only logical response to a bloodless right wing
coup that is moving the U.S. farther away from democracy and respect for humanity.
This is an absolutely
new and unique development in American history.
Friendly1
11-06-2004, 03:22 PM
If the people wanting to leave
remain in the low hundred thousands and people wanting to get in remain the millions, I don't think that says much
about any particular leader of our country.
Politics always leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths, but it
always seems to be on the menu.
DrSmellThis
11-06-2004, 03:30 PM
Since this is unique in
American history, your reply does not make sense. The trend is the point, not the absolute number staying versus
going; which really is a meaningless statistic in this situation, since you're not comparing it to anything. If you
can't see meaning in an estimated sixfold increase in people wanting to leave, I don't know what to tell you.
belgareth
11-06-2004, 03:55 PM
While reading the article I
developed this mental image of the old man standing before a crowd, holding his finger in the air for emphasis,
saying, in a deep theatrical voice: "I strongly support democracy and encourage everybody to participate. However,
since the democratic system didn't go the way I wanted it to, I'm going to go play elsewhere."
That IS exactly
what they are saying. If you support democracy but feel the system is flawed, work to fix it. I don't like Bush, I
didn't like Clinton...so? I should quit supporting the country that I am a part of, just quit and go somewhere
else? Do you really believe that this somewhere else is going to be all roses? Lots of luck!
Yeah, I've heard a
bunch of conspiracy talk, nothing new there. Some people are still saying Kennedy was assasinated by the CIA and
others still think the earth is flat. So far, I've seen and heard little that couldn't have as easily come from
the democrats playing dirty tricks. And before anybody tries to say the democrats wouldn't do that, there is no
doubt whatsoever that the draft rumors were started by them.
Anybody who claims to support the democratic
process then runs away when they don't get what they wanted is pretty weak morally, in my eyes.
DrSmellThis
11-06-2004, 04:01 PM
People leave their countries
all the time when things get bad enough. Who is anyone to say they have an obligation to stay?
belgareth
11-06-2004, 04:05 PM
That's each person's
perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you doing for
that system and the people left behind to deal with it?
Pancho1188
11-07-2004, 04:48 PM
That's each
person's perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you
doing for that system and the people left behind to deal with it?
You're saying, "I believe, Mr.
President, that there was such thing as a separation of church and state. Since you and 60%-70% of Americans decide
to ignore this simple ideal, I'm going to wipe my ass with the first amendment and the natural rights of life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and take an extended vacation to another country." I'm sorry, that's what
I'd be saying if I had any desire to leave.
Since this thread is titled "Ironic, isn't it?" I figured I'd
throw in the important irony of a country that backs religious freedom and separation of church and state yet forces
their religious beliefs on people who are simply attempting to exercise their rights of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness.
We're a bunch of hypocrites.
belgareth
11-07-2004, 05:06 PM
We're a
bunch of hypocrites.
Indeed. :rant:
A word on Portugal and Canada, and
places like it.
While they may not have the problems we do, they aren't finding cures for diseases, sending
humans to space, supplying foriegn aid to starving nations, creating technology that raises our standard of living
and ability to learn, supporting all forms of arts, entertainment or athletics relatively significantly, creating
jobs for other countres, or providing universities that students from all over the world flock to.
This
is because they are simple nations. And the simpler you are, the less likely you will have problems.
The
United States has problems, but I don't see too many other nations carrying the weight of responsibility on many
important endeavors for mankind that we do.
Many of the seemingly more innocent nations haven't really
gotten off of their asses to do anything to contribute to mankind.
DrSmellThis
11-07-2004, 08:27 PM
That's each
person's perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you
doing for that system and the people left behind to deal with it?These people that leave presumably do not
support the system, or claim to; and therefore leave with the greater integrity. I can't make it their obligation
to fix the ruling system, if they feel it's no longer remotely compatible with their values, as compared to another
country. At some point of societal decay, feelings of alienation, and value-incompatiblity; your right to a happy,
peaceful life can outweigh your obligation to tend to your land of physical birth, as eons worth of emigrants can
attest. I am not going to judge someone who tells us they've reached that point as worthy of contempt; regardless
of whether losing another "rebel" makes it harder for those who remain. Further, a country as defined by its people
(assuming the people effectively rule in this case -- if not then you don't have democracy, and I can't deny
someone their right to live in a democracy somewhere else.) has the right to be what it wants to, even if it's
something incompatible with its original values. Sometimes free people can only vote -- and govern -- with their
feet.
belgareth
11-08-2004, 08:13 AM
Poll: Voters Relieved by Decisive Election
By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Most
American voters say the decisive presidential election last week has given them renewed confidence about the
nation's electoral system and they're hopeful about the next four years, an Associated Press Poll
finds.
At the same time, they feel a sense of urgency about Iraq,
their top priority for President Bush to tackle after his re-election, questioning disclosed. Iraq was followed by
terrorism among voters' leading concerns.
Voters took comfort from
an election that wasn't tied up in the courts as in 2000.
"Anytime
you have to wait as long as it the election did in 2000, it leaves people with doubts and a bitter taste in their
mouths," said Jim Seaman, a Republican businessman from Summerville, S.C.
The poll taken in the days following the election also found that voters want Bush to cut the deficit, which
ballooned under his watch, rather than pushing for more tax cuts.
The voters' concerns stood in contrast to the priorities Bush cited after he defeated Democrat John Kerry.
Bush pledged to aggressively pursue major changes in Social Security, tax laws and medical malpractice awards.
Terrorism was a chief concern both for Bush and many voters in the poll.
"I earned capital in the campaign, political capital, and now I intend to spend it," Bush said after becoming
the first president in 68 years both to win re-election and gain seats in the House and Senate.
More than one-fourth of respondents, 27 percent, named Iraq as the
top priority for Bush's second term, ahead of terrorism, the economy and health care. Only 2 percent named taxes as
a priority in the poll conducted for the AP by Ipsos-Public Affairs.
By more than a 2-1 margin, voters said they preferred that the president balance the budget rather than reduce
taxes further.
After a campaign dominated by discussion of Iraq and
terrorism, national security issues were at the top of voters' concerns along with the economy. Voters were asked
to pick from a list of issues in the AP poll that included Iraq, terrorism, the economy, unemployment, health care,
education and taxes.
Many voters on Election Day indicated they are
also concerned about "moral values" — a broader concern than specific issues such as health care and education.
Seven in 10 voters in the AP poll, including a majority of
Democrats, would prefer that U.S. troops to stay in Iraq until the country is stable, instead of having them leave
immediately.
U.S. troops are preparing for assaults on insurgent
strongholds used as havens for those mounting increased attacks against coalition forces.
"There has got to be some kind of resolution in Iraq," said Erwin
Neighbors, a Republican and a community college teacher from Moberly, Mo. "We can't fold our tent without
accomplishing our goals."
On the domestic front, Bush says his plans
to overhaul the tax laws would be "revenue-neutral" and would not cut taxes. Throughout the past year, however, he
has urged Congress to make earlier tax cuts permanent despite estimates of a deficit that could top $2.3 trillion
over the next 10 years.
Given the choice between balancing the
budget and cutting taxes, voters chose balancing the budget by 66 percent to 31 percent. When the choice is between
balancing the budget and spending more on education, health care and economic development, voters were divided.
On another domestic issue, six in 10 voters say they are comfortable
the president will nominate the right kind of person to serve on the Supreme Court. Bush has sidestepped questions
about who he would name if there were an opening, more likely with Chief Justice William Rehnquist’s battle against
cancer.
Asked whether Bush should appoint a justice who will uphold
or overturn the Roe v. Wade decision that protected a woman's right to abortions, six in 10 said they want a
justice who will uphold the landmark ruling.
Voters were generally
accepting of the election results, Democrats were very likely to be in a gloomy mood.
"I was frustrated all the way around," said Duane Seymour, a
semi-retired voter from Watertown, N.Y., who leans Democratic. "I was eager for something to change. Things have
been spiraling downward."
The AP-Ipsos poll of 844 registered voters
was taken Nov. 3-5 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.
Pancho1188
11-08-2004, 12:33 PM
"Decisive election"? What was
so decisive about it? Because the person who won the popular vote just happened to be the same as the electoral
vote? This election was 2000 all over again (reverse positions) except the disputed state still put Bush ahead
instead of putting Kerry ahead to 'steal' the election from Bush. What a joke. It's still half the country vs.
the other half. Urban vs. rural. Liberal vs. conservative. People who are actually effected by the bad things
that happen in this country due to the most recent crises vs. people who aren't affected either way for the most
part.
Ugh...divided we fall...
DrSmellThis
11-08-2004, 01:01 PM
The margin of "victory" was
the smallest for a sitting president, wartime or not, since the early 20th century. But you can't call it
"decisive" for a more fundamental reason, and that is the corrupt voting system. The American people have not been
this divided since the Civil War, partially due to the choice of issues by the campaigns, which emphasized issues
that divide us (e.g., Gay marriage), while ignoring those wherein common ground could reasonably be found (e.g., the
environment). A sense of relief from the damned torturous thing being "over" I can understand. But anyone who gets
increased confidence in the system and comfort from this election is naive, uninformed, or a Bush supporter, IMHO.
But even Bush himself should be disturbed by the amount of division in this country, unless he's a callous idiot.
koolking1
11-08-2004, 02:26 PM
"A word on Portugal and
Canada, and places like it.
While they may not have the problems we do, they aren't finding cures for
diseases, sending humans to space, supplying foriegn aid to starving nations, creating technology that raises our
standard of living and ability to learn, supporting all forms of arts, entertainment or athletics relatively
significantly, creating jobs for other countres, or providing universities that students from all over the world
flock to."
BJF, can you prove this? Sounds awful fishy to me!!!
I'd like to say a lot more.
koolking, maybe I should have added
"to the extent we are" but I thought that was implied. If you don't agree with this, I can't argue 'bout
it.
ps, where you been?
Holmes
11-08-2004, 02:46 PM
ps, where you
been?
:lol:
I was just wondering the same.
What's the news, KK?
koolking1
11-08-2004, 02:52 PM
I've been keeping busy
with the baseball and the election. Hope all you guys have been well. Sue had pneumonia too for nearly a month but
she's back to 100%. OK BJF, we're cool. I was stationed in Canada for 3 years in Ottawa and kind of know just
how generous the Canadians are with things like Foreign Aid and such. Never been to Portugal though but am
convinced (personal experience) that they have the hottest and most sexual women around!!!
Sue had pneumonia too for
nearly a month but she's back to 100%
Damn, no side benefits for a month, huh?
Portugal's
most prized natural resource must be their women, seems like they'd be incredible.
I love canada, my best
friend is 1/256 Canadian.
a.k.a.
11-08-2004, 08:18 PM
Well, they say that home is where
the heart is. And I have to admit that my heart’s turned a bit cold with the last election.
I can’t
blame anybody that voted for Bush on the issues of Iraq, Security, or the Economy. Because, let’s face it, Kerry
never managed to distinguish himself in any of these issues. (He may have won the debates, but he conceded the
broader social debate on whether America was headed in the right direction.)
But when I read that a
majority of Bush supporters ranked “morality” as their top issue (overshadowing Iraq and the economy) I imagine
millions of bitter, mean spirited people heading to the polls just to make sure that their fellow countrymen don’t
enjoy the right to a state sanctioned marriage (if they happen to be gay) or the opportunity for cutting edge
medical research (if it involves stem cells). I can’t even find words to describe how this makes me feel. It’s like
“Dawn of the Dead”.
The big irony (for me) is that I hope to discover that this election was rigged
after all. This would be a much easier pill to swallow.
History is full of corrupt governments. I think I
can deal with that. But when the spirit of a people is corrupted to the point where they will go out of their way
just to make sure that others will be denied basic rights and opportunities... Where does one find hope — or even
the simple pleasure of human fellowship — in that kind of environment?
DrSmellThis
11-08-2004, 08:41 PM
History is full of
corrupt governments. I think I can deal with that. But when the spirit of a people is corrupted to the point where
they will go out of their way just to make sure that others will be denied basic rights and opportunities... Where
does one find hope — or even the simple pleasure of human fellowship — in that kind of environment?Nice
post. This is the sentiment so many of us are struggling with. That, the unjust war, and the corruption in general
are just particularly emotionally hard to reconcile with the election results. From a human standpoint, from my
understanding of life and people, I just find it easier on my heart and nervous system to believe the election was
rigged. It just feels like it fits, and isn't really a suprising conclusion. My intuition is screaming at me about
this, even though I've been focusing on gathering hard information. My main disturbance there has to do with the
prospect of the information staying hidden and supressed, and with the perpetrators totally getting away with it.
It's upsetting either way, but there is more hope and purpose if the scandal indeed occured. If it's all about
bigotry and the imposition of fundamentalist religion being the defining characteristic of our culture, that is what
makes me feel nauseous. Otherwise it is "only" about power and money relationships between corrupt politicians and
corporations. :)
Chemo (BDC Concepts)
11-08-2004, 08:49 PM
politics - broken
down to the root words
poli: meaning "many"
tics: meaning "bloodsuckers"
Mtnjim
11-09-2004, 03:48 PM
... From a human
standpoint, from my understanding of life and people, I just find it easier on my heart and nervous system to
believe the election was rigged. It just feels like it fits, and isn't really a suprising conclusion. My intuition
is screaming at me about this, even though I've been focusing on gathering hard information. My main disturbance
there has to do with the prospect of the information staying hidden and supressed, and with the perpetrators totally
getting away with it. ...
From a mailing list that deals with various "Risks", see especially the
Bev Harris entry :hammer: !
"Subject: Some 2004 voting anomalies
For those of you interested in
following a collection of reported problems
more carefully, here are just a few reported anomalies, collected
from a
variety of sources:
* Palm Beach County logged 88,000 more votes than people who had voted in the
presidential race. (Teresa LePore of 2000 Butterfly Ballot fame is the County supervisor of elections
there.)
* A Franklin County Ohio machine error gave Bush 3,893 extra votes in a precinct in Gahanna. The
correct totals were 365 for Bush, 260 for Kerry.
* In Broward County FL, in balloting for Amendment 4, ES&S
software for tabulating absentee ballots began counting BACKWARDS once a total o 32,767 [2^15 - 1, in a signed
16-bit field] votes had been reached in a precinct. When this was discovered, the corrected totals for the precinct
went from 166,000 to 240,000, and actually caused the statewide results to be reversed on this amendment.
Apparently the same flaw was detected two years ago in the same software, and remained uncorrected. Nick Simicich
wondered in a long message to RISKS: Do you suppose that they "fixed" this by making the 16 bit field unsigned? Or
do you suppose that they counted the numbers separately using, say, floating point so that they could check the
results for large discrepancies? Or maybe that they checked the before and after to see that the numbers increased
when they added to them...or anything else that they could do to make this self auditing? Nah...frankly, I'm
scared by the stupidity of this error. This is a problem that needs an open source solution.
* The failure
of the ES&S ranked-choice vote-counting software in the San Francisco Supervisors' election that I noted in
RISKS-23.58 turns out to have been a hard-coded constant maximum number of voters that was set too low. The fix was
utterly trivial, but wisely required recertification by the State. [Perhaps the same programmer wrote the Broward
software?]
* Bev Harris reported that ``Jeff Fisher, the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House from
Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that
the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how... In Baker County, for example, with 12,887
registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and
7,738 for Bush.... Dick Morris [famous consultant to both parties, now with Fox News] wrote "So, according to
ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa....
Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play." '' [See
http://www.blackboxvoting.org , *NOT* .com]
* Incidentally, Ralph Barone noted an article on the
internal database structures of the Diebold voting machines, plus how to hack an election and cover your trail
afterwards.
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/scoop/S00065.htm
* There were numerous reports of
screens "jumping" votes in ES&S and Hart InterCivic machines, where casting a straight-party subsequently changes
the vote for the President before exiting.
* Also reported were many cases of long lines and long waits only
in certain politically skewed precincts, many legitimate voters who claim they were disenfranchised, voters who were
given special optical scan pens that were not capable of being tallied, and so on.
Many Web sources provided
running lists of reported anomalies, such as
http://www.votersunite.org
http://fairvote.org/easttowest.pdf
https://voteprotect.org
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/eirs/
http://www.electionprotection2004.org/coalition.htm
http://www.blackboxvoting.org
Pancho1188
11-09-2004, 03:56 PM
Maybe Bush watched the movie
"Black Sheep" and thought it was a good idea to try what Chris Farley discovered his brother's opponent did...that
just seems like a movie Bush would like to watch, doesn't it? :)
(For those of you who didn't see the film,
Farley discovered that more people voted in his area than there were registered voters...or even people
altogether...and found that a bunch of fake people, including the dead, voted that day)
Holmes
11-09-2004, 04:05 PM
Maybe Bush
watched the movie "Black Sheep" and thought it was a good idea to try what Chris Farley discovered his brother's
opponent did...that just seems like a movie Bush would like to watch, doesn't it? :)
(For those of you
who didn't see the film, Farley discovered that more people voted in his area than there were registered
voters...or even people altogether...and found that a bunch of fake people, including the dead, voted that
day)
This election brought to mind Brewster's Millions. Dunno why.
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