Ironic, isn't it?

[belgareth]

Americans Flock to Canada's Immigration Web Site



Fri Nov 5, 2:22 PM ET By David Ljunggren





OTTAWA (Reuters) -

The number of U.S. citizens visiting Canada's main immigration Web site has shot up six-fold as Americans flirt

with the idea of abandoning their homeland after President Bush's election win this week.



"When we looked at the first day after the election, Nov. 3, our Web

site hit a new high, almost double the previous record high," immigration ministry spokeswoman Maria Iadinardi said

on Friday.

On an average day some 20,000 people in the United States

log onto the Web site, www.cic.gc.ca -- a figure which rocketed to 115,016 on Wednesday. The number of

U.S. visits settled down to 65,803 on Thursday, still well above the norm.

Bush's victory sparked speculation that disconsolate Democrats and others might decide to start a new life in

Canada, a land that tilts more to the left than the United States.

Would-be immigrants to Canada can apply to become permanent resident, a process that often takes a year. The

other main way to move north on a long-term basis is to find a job, which requires a work permit.



But please spare the sob stories.



Asked whether an applicant would be looked upon more sympathetically

if they claimed to be a sad Democrat seeking to escape four more years of Bush, Iadinardi replied: "There would be

no weight given to statements of feelings."

Canada is one of the few

major nations with an large-scale immigration policy. Ottawa is seeking to attract between 220,000 and 240,000

newcomers next year.

"Let's face it, we have a population of a

little over 32 million and we definitely need permanent residents to come to Canada," said Iadinardi. "If we could

meet (the 2005) target and go above it, the more the merrier."

But

right now it is too early to say whether the increased interest will result in more applications.



"There is no unusual activity occurring at our visa missions (in the

United States). Having someone who intends to come to Canada is not the same as someone actually putting in an

application," said Iadinardi.

"We'll only find out whether there

has been an increase in applications in six months."

The waiting

time to become a citizen is shorter for people married to Canadians, which prompted the birth of a satirical Web

site called www.marryanamerican.ca.

The idea of increased

immigration by unhappy Americans is triggering some amusement in Canada. Commentator Thane Burnett of the Ottawa Sun

newspaper wrote a tongue-in-cheek guide to would-be new citizens on Friday.

"As Canadians, you'll have to learn to embrace and use all the products and culture of Americans,

while bad-mouthing their way of life," he said.

[DrSmellThis]

Amusing article, but based in truth. One of my best friends is leaving to Portugal because of the "election." I've

heard several others in my circle discuss emigrating. I have to admit I've thought of it. Thoughtful people must

know there is a serious problem in this country when they see people virtually abandoning their families and friends

to get out. Emigration doesn't lie. This is for many the only logical response to a bloodless right wing

coup that is moving the U.S. farther away from democracy and respect for humanity.

This is an absolutely

new and unique development in American history.

[Friendly1]

If the people wanting to leave

remain in the low hundred thousands and people wanting to get in remain the millions, I don't think that says much

about any particular leader of our country.

Politics always leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths, but it

always seems to be on the menu.

[DrSmellThis]

Since this is unique in

American history, your reply does not make sense. The trend is the point, not the absolute number staying versus

going; which really is a meaningless statistic in this situation, since you're not comparing it to anything. If you

can't see meaning in an estimated sixfold increase in people wanting to leave, I don't know what to tell you.

[belgareth]

While reading the article I

developed this mental image of the old man standing before a crowd, holding his finger in the air for emphasis,

saying, in a deep theatrical voice: "I strongly support democracy and encourage everybody to participate. However,

since the democratic system didn't go the way I wanted it to, I'm going to go play elsewhere."

That IS exactly

what they are saying. If you support democracy but feel the system is flawed, work to fix it. I don't like Bush, I

didn't like Clinton...so? I should quit supporting the country that I am a part of, just quit and go somewhere

else? Do you really believe that this somewhere else is going to be all roses? Lots of luck!

Yeah, I've heard a

bunch of conspiracy talk, nothing new there. Some people are still saying Kennedy was assasinated by the CIA and

others still think the earth is flat. So far, I've seen and heard little that couldn't have as easily come from

the democrats playing dirty tricks. And before anybody tries to say the democrats wouldn't do that, there is no

doubt whatsoever that the draft rumors were started by them.

Anybody who claims to support the democratic

process then runs away when they don't get what they wanted is pretty weak morally, in my eyes.

[DrSmellThis]

People leave their countries

all the time when things get bad enough. Who is anyone to say they have an obligation to stay?

[belgareth]

That's each person's

perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you doing for

that system and the people left behind to deal with it?

[Pancho1188]

That's each

person's perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you

doing for that system and the people left behind to deal with it?
You're saying, "I believe, Mr.

President, that there was such thing as a separation of church and state. Since you and 60%-70% of Americans decide

to ignore this simple ideal, I'm going to wipe my ass with the first amendment and the natural rights of life,

liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and take an extended vacation to another country." I'm sorry, that's what

I'd be saying if I had any desire to leave.

Since this thread is titled "Ironic, isn't it?" I figured I'd

throw in the important irony of a country that backs religious freedom and separation of church and state yet forces

their religious beliefs on people who are simply attempting to exercise their rights of life, liberty, and the

pursuit of happiness.

We're a bunch of hypocrites.

[belgareth]

We're a

bunch of hypocrites.
Indeed. :rant:

[bjf]

A word on Portugal and Canada, and

places like it.

While they may not have the problems we do, they aren't finding cures for diseases, sending

humans to space, supplying foriegn aid to starving nations, creating technology that raises our standard of living

and ability to learn, supporting all forms of arts, entertainment or athletics relatively significantly, creating

jobs for other countres, or providing universities that students from all over the world flock to.


This

is because they are simple nations. And the simpler you are, the less likely you will have problems.

The

United States has problems, but I don't see too many other nations carrying the weight of responsibility on many

important endeavors for mankind that we do.

Many of the seemingly more innocent nations haven't really

gotten off of their asses to do anything to contribute to mankind.

[DrSmellThis]

That's each

person's perogative. But if you claim to support a system then leave when it most need your support, what are you

doing for that system and the people left behind to deal with it?These people that leave presumably do not

support the system, or claim to; and therefore leave with the greater integrity. I can't make it their obligation

to fix the ruling system, if they feel it's no longer remotely compatible with their values, as compared to another

country. At some point of societal decay, feelings of alienation, and value-incompatiblity; your right to a happy,

peaceful life can outweigh your obligation to tend to your land of physical birth, as eons worth of emigrants can

attest. I am not going to judge someone who tells us they've reached that point as worthy of contempt; regardless

of whether losing another "rebel" makes it harder for those who remain. Further, a country as defined by its people

(assuming the people effectively rule in this case -- if not then you don't have democracy, and I can't deny

someone their right to live in a democracy somewhere else.) has the right to be what it wants to, even if it's

something incompatible with its original values. Sometimes free people can only vote -- and govern -- with their

feet.

[belgareth]

Poll: Voters Relieved by Decisive Election





By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer





WASHINGTON - Most

American voters say the decisive presidential election last week has given them renewed confidence about the

nation's electoral system and they're hopeful about the next four years, an Associated Press Poll

finds.

At the same time, they feel a sense of urgency about Iraq,

their top priority for President Bush to tackle after his re-election, questioning disclosed. Iraq was followed by

terrorism among voters' leading concerns.

Voters took comfort from

an election that wasn't tied up in the courts as in 2000.

"Anytime

you have to wait as long as it the election did in 2000, it leaves people with doubts and a bitter taste in their

mouths," said Jim Seaman, a Republican businessman from Summerville, S.C.

The poll taken in the days following the election also found that voters want Bush to cut the deficit, which

ballooned under his watch, rather than pushing for more tax cuts.

The voters' concerns stood in contrast to the priorities Bush cited after he defeated Democrat John Kerry.

Bush pledged to aggressively pursue major changes in Social Security, tax laws and medical malpractice awards.

Terrorism was a chief concern both for Bush and many voters in the poll.

"I earned capital in the campaign, political capital, and now I intend to spend it," Bush said after becoming

the first president in 68 years both to win re-election and gain seats in the House and Senate.



More than one-fourth of respondents, 27 percent, named Iraq as the

top priority for Bush's second term, ahead of terrorism, the economy and health care. Only 2 percent named taxes as

a priority in the poll conducted for the AP by Ipsos-Public Affairs.

By more than a 2-1 margin, voters said they preferred that the president balance the budget rather than reduce

taxes further.

After a campaign dominated by discussion of Iraq and

terrorism, national security issues were at the top of voters' concerns along with the economy. Voters were asked

to pick from a list of issues in the AP poll that included Iraq, terrorism, the economy, unemployment, health care,

education and taxes.

Many voters on Election Day indicated they are

also concerned about "moral values" — a broader concern than specific issues such as health care and education.



Seven in 10 voters in the AP poll, including a majority of

Democrats, would prefer that U.S. troops to stay in Iraq until the country is stable, instead of having them leave

immediately.

U.S. troops are preparing for assaults on insurgent

strongholds used as havens for those mounting increased attacks against coalition forces.



"There has got to be some kind of resolution in Iraq," said Erwin

Neighbors, a Republican and a community college teacher from Moberly, Mo. "We can't fold our tent without

accomplishing our goals."

On the domestic front, Bush says his plans

to overhaul the tax laws would be "revenue-neutral" and would not cut taxes. Throughout the past year, however, he

has urged Congress to make earlier tax cuts permanent despite estimates of a deficit that could top $2.3 trillion

over the next 10 years.

Given the choice between balancing the

budget and cutting taxes, voters chose balancing the budget by 66 percent to 31 percent. When the choice is between

balancing the budget and spending more on education, health care and economic development, voters were divided.



On another domestic issue, six in 10 voters say they are comfortable

the president will nominate the right kind of person to serve on the Supreme Court. Bush has sidestepped questions

about who he would name if there were an opening, more likely with Chief Justice William Rehnquist’s battle against

cancer.

Asked whether Bush should appoint a justice who will uphold

or overturn the Roe v. Wade decision that protected a woman's right to abortions, six in 10 said they want a

justice who will uphold the landmark ruling.

Voters were generally

accepting of the election results, Democrats were very likely to be in a gloomy mood.



"I was frustrated all the way around," said Duane Seymour, a

semi-retired voter from Watertown, N.Y., who leans Democratic. "I was eager for something to change. Things have

been spiraling downward."

The AP-Ipsos poll of 844 registered voters

was taken Nov. 3-5 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

[Pancho1188]

"Decisive election"? What was

so decisive about it? Because the person who won the popular vote just happened to be the same as the electoral

vote? This election was 2000 all over again (reverse positions) except the disputed state still put Bush ahead

instead of putting Kerry ahead to 'steal' the election from Bush. What a joke. It's still half the country vs.

the other half. Urban vs. rural. Liberal vs. conservative. People who are actually effected by the bad things

that happen in this country due to the most recent crises vs. people who aren't affected either way for the most

part.

Ugh...divided we fall...

[DrSmellThis]

The margin of "victory" was

the smallest for a sitting president, wartime or not, since the early 20th century. But you can't call it

"decisive" for a more fundamental reason, and that is the corrupt voting system. The American people have not been

this divided since the Civil War, partially due to the choice of issues by the campaigns, which emphasized issues

that divide us (e.g., Gay marriage), while ignoring those wherein common ground could reasonably be found (e.g., the

environment). A sense of relief from the damned torturous thing being "over" I can understand. But anyone who gets

increased confidence in the system and comfort from this election is naive, uninformed, or a Bush supporter, IMHO.

But even Bush himself should be disturbed by the amount of division in this country, unless he's a callous idiot.

[koolking1]

"A word on Portugal and

Canada, and places like it.

While they may not have the problems we do, they aren't finding cures for

diseases, sending humans to space, supplying foriegn aid to starving nations, creating technology that raises our

standard of living and ability to learn, supporting all forms of arts, entertainment or athletics relatively

significantly, creating jobs for other countres, or providing universities that students from all over the world

flock to."

BJF, can you prove this? Sounds awful fishy to me!!!

I'd like to say a lot more.

[bjf]

koolking, maybe I should have added

"to the extent we are" but I thought that was implied. If you don't agree with this, I can't argue 'bout

it.

ps, where you been?

[Holmes]

ps, where you

been?

:lol:

I was just wondering the same.

What's the news, KK?

[koolking1]

I've been keeping busy

with the baseball and the election. Hope all you guys have been well. Sue had pneumonia too for nearly a month but

she's back to 100%. OK BJF, we're cool. I was stationed in Canada for 3 years in Ottawa and kind of know just

how generous the Canadians are with things like Foreign Aid and such. Never been to Portugal though but am

convinced (personal experience) that they have the hottest and most sexual women around!!!

[bjf]

Sue had pneumonia too for

nearly a month but she's back to 100%

Damn, no side benefits for a month, huh?

Portugal's

most prized natural resource must be their women, seems like they'd be incredible.

I love canada, my best

friend is 1/256 Canadian.

[a.k.a.]

Well, they say that home is where

the heart is. And I have to admit that my heart’s turned a bit cold with the last election.

I can’t

blame anybody that voted for Bush on the issues of Iraq, Security, or the Economy. Because, let’s face it, Kerry

never managed to distinguish himself in any of these issues. (He may have won the debates, but he conceded the

broader social debate on whether America was headed in the right direction.)
But when I read that a

majority of Bush supporters ranked “morality” as their top issue (overshadowing Iraq and the economy) I imagine

millions of bitter, mean spirited people heading to the polls just to make sure that their fellow countrymen don’t

enjoy the right to a state sanctioned marriage (if they happen to be gay) or the opportunity for cutting edge

medical research (if it involves stem cells). I can’t even find words to describe how this makes me feel. It’s like

“Dawn of the Dead”.

The big irony (for me) is that I hope to discover that this election was rigged

after all. This would be a much easier pill to swallow.
History is full of corrupt governments. I think I

can deal with that. But when the spirit of a people is corrupted to the point where they will go out of their way

just to make sure that others will be denied basic rights and opportunities... Where does one find hope — or even

the simple pleasure of human fellowship — in that kind of environment?

[DrSmellThis]

History is full of

corrupt governments. I think I can deal with that. But when the spirit of a people is corrupted to the point where

they will go out of their way just to make sure that others will be denied basic rights and opportunities... Where

does one find hope — or even the simple pleasure of human fellowship — in that kind of environment?Nice

post. This is the sentiment so many of us are struggling with. That, the unjust war, and the corruption in general

are just particularly emotionally hard to reconcile with the election results. From a human standpoint, from my

understanding of life and people, I just find it easier on my heart and nervous system to believe the election was

rigged. It just feels like it fits, and isn't really a suprising conclusion. My intuition is screaming at me about

this, even though I've been focusing on gathering hard information. My main disturbance there has to do with the

prospect of the information staying hidden and supressed, and with the perpetrators totally getting away with it.

It's upsetting either way, but there is more hope and purpose if the scandal indeed occured. If it's all about

bigotry and the imposition of fundamentalist religion being the defining characteristic of our culture, that is what

makes me feel nauseous. Otherwise it is "only" about power and money relationships between corrupt politicians and

corporations. :)

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

politics - broken

down to the root words

poli: meaning "many"
tics: meaning "bloodsuckers"

[Mtnjim]

... From a human

standpoint, from my understanding of life and people, I just find it easier on my heart and nervous system to

believe the election was rigged. It just feels like it fits, and isn't really a suprising conclusion. My intuition

is screaming at me about this, even though I've been focusing on gathering hard information. My main disturbance

there has to do with the prospect of the information staying hidden and supressed, and with the perpetrators totally

getting away with it. ...


From a mailing list that deals with various "Risks", see especially the

Bev Harris entry :hammer: !

"Subject: Some 2004 voting anomalies

For those of you interested in

following a collection of reported problems
more carefully, here are just a few reported anomalies, collected

from a
variety of sources:

* Palm Beach County logged 88,000 more votes than people who had voted in the

presidential race. (Teresa LePore of 2000 Butterfly Ballot fame is the County supervisor of elections

there.)

* A Franklin County Ohio machine error gave Bush 3,893 extra votes in a precinct in Gahanna. The

correct totals were 365 for Bush, 260 for Kerry.

* In Broward County FL, in balloting for Amendment 4, ES&S

software for tabulating absentee ballots began counting BACKWARDS once a total o 32,767 [2^15 - 1, in a signed

16-bit field] votes had been reached in a precinct. When this was discovered, the corrected totals for the precinct

went from 166,000 to 240,000, and actually caused the statewide results to be reversed on this amendment.

Apparently the same flaw was detected two years ago in the same software, and remained uncorrected. Nick Simicich

wondered in a long message to RISKS: Do you suppose that they "fixed" this by making the 16 bit field unsigned? Or

do you suppose that they counted the numbers separately using, say, floating point so that they could check the

results for large discrepancies? Or maybe that they checked the before and after to see that the numbers increased

when they added to them...or anything else that they could do to make this self auditing? Nah...frankly, I'm

scared by the stupidity of this error. This is a problem that needs an open source solution.

* The failure

of the ES&S ranked-choice vote-counting software in the San Francisco Supervisors' election that I noted in

RISKS-23.58 turns out to have been a hard-coded constant maximum number of voters that was set too low. The fix was

utterly trivial, but wisely required recertification by the State. [Perhaps the same programmer wrote the Broward

software?]

* Bev Harris reported that ``Jeff Fisher, the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House from

Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that

the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how... In Baker County, for example, with 12,887

registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and

7,738 for Bush.... Dick Morris [famous consultant to both parties, now with Fox News] wrote "So, according to

ABC-TVs exit polls, for example, Kerry was slated to carry Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, and Iowa....

Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play." '' [See

http://www.blackboxvoting.org , *NOT* .com]

* Incidentally, Ralph Barone noted an article on the

internal database structures of the Diebold voting machines, plus how to hack an election and cover your trail

afterwards.
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/scoop/S00065.htm

* There were numerous reports of

screens "jumping" votes in ES&S and Hart InterCivic machines, where casting a straight-party subsequently changes

the vote for the President before exiting.

* Also reported were many cases of long lines and long waits only

in certain politically skewed precincts, many legitimate voters who claim they were disenfranchised, voters who were

given special optical scan pens that were not capable of being tallied, and so on.

Many Web sources provided

running lists of reported anomalies, such as
http://www.votersunite.org


http://fairvote.org/easttowest.pdf
https://voteprotect.org


http://www.verifiedvoting.org/eirs/


http://www.electionprotection2004.org/coalition.htm
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[Pancho1188]

Maybe Bush watched the movie

"Black Sheep" and thought it was a good idea to try what Chris Farley discovered his brother's opponent did...that

just seems like a movie Bush would like to watch, doesn't it? :)


(For those of you who didn't see the film,

Farley discovered that more people voted in his area than there were registered voters...or even people

altogether...and found that a bunch of fake people, including the dead, voted that day)

[Holmes]

Maybe Bush

watched the movie "Black Sheep" and thought it was a good idea to try what Chris Farley discovered his brother's

opponent did...that just seems like a movie Bush would like to watch, doesn't it? :)


(For those of you

who didn't see the film, Farley discovered that more people voted in his area than there were registered

voters...or even people altogether...and found that a bunch of fake people, including the dead, voted that

day)

This election brought to mind Brewster's Millions. Dunno why.