Does the VNO actually exist?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Do the homework youself and see that we may be jerking our own chains. Go to www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\") (PubMed) and type in \'vomeronasal organ\' (two keywords) and look up the literature abstracts in the latest journals of anatomy, histology, physiology and pathology (anywhere from Oct 2001 backwards to January will do).

BIG arguments about whether it exists at all, and if it does, whether pheromones even work there in the human. Maybe we should be putting the pherormones we buy on our potential lovers instead, rather than splashing/wiping them on ourselves.

Food for thought ... plus less shaver burn from the alcohol ... Ouch!! images/icons/crazy.gif

[Whitehall]

Sometimes the scientists with government grants have a hard time with the variety of the human physique. For example, the notorious \"G-Spot.\" Some women have it, some don\'t, sometimes its easy to locate, sometimes not. Some women ejaculate, most don\'t. \"Reputable\" scientists won\'t say with certainty.

The fact is, a major evolutionary advantage humans have is our variability and our adaptablity. It allows us to provide a range of physical and behavioral responses to changing environmental and social conditions. \"Find a niche and fill it\" is the human game plan.

THe VNO fits with some behavior strategies and confounds others. A good book is \"Sperm Wars\" where the author posits various mating strategies for males and for women - some individuals using certain strategies would find an active VNO an advantage while others would find it like an appendix - pointless and archaic. Likewise, the \"G-Spot.\" Another GREAT book is \"Sociobiology\" by E.O. Wilson - only the last chapter is specifically about homo sapiens but it provides THE foundation for biology.

The whole point is that while science can inform, it doesn\'t know everything by a long shot. Getting laid is still very much an art - even with our best science, how many of us can match the great Casanova??? (Read about this guy - he\'s my hero! What a MAN!) Science can be enlisted to our aid but being a great lover comes from the heart first and foremost. (OK, maybe the balls.)

PS - don\'t discount the positives of the placebo effect, either.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Whitehall ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There\'s invariably debate early in the life of a science. There\'s an old quote that goes along the lines that really change in scientific theory occurs when the current generation that objects to a new theory dies.

That said, there are VNO studies where electrodes measured nerve activity in women and the \"alleged\" VNO responded to exposure to pheromones, but not to any other substance tested. I think this, combined with double-blind statistical studies (office chair experiments, identical twin experiments in bars, etc.) provides pretty convincing proof the effects of pheromones are real.

Like a lot of statistically-oriented sciences (psychology, quantum mechanics, etc) it\'s sometimes hard to believe things where there isn\'t a 1:1 correlation between cause and effect. But the effects are real -- it\'s just they appear to be seemingly random effects that only become \"proof\" when the statistics get looked at.

I look at pheromones as slightly loading the attraction dice in my favor, not a guarantee. To this I add better clothing, bleached teeth, good hygiene, etc. Each one adds a little boost to the odds in my favor.

None of them guarantee anything will happen with a particular woman. Collectively they increase the chance that something will happen with _a_ woman.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There is something that happens this stuff works in a way, if its not the VNO then there is something in the brain that picks up pheromone, we know they exist these products work, but mainsteam science denies human sexuality because it is a behind the doors thing.
The media would rather put attractive people up to keep the populace content as a controlled populace is better and pheromones put the power in the hands of anyone which can be good and bad, if you want to movitate others then use this stuff people will work harder because they try to compete sexually with the wearer so they have more reason to be more alert and pushed so to speak so they can climb over me and get the better women we are animals after all, an alien species studying us would note our behaviours etc.
But i use it for my own reasons if i do not engage in sexual behaviour then i have a reason not to be told to anyone but a long term objective is there and it will come about because of other peoples ignorance. So now what to do keep going thats it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Most of the comments I would agree with, especially \'scientist\'s comments about looking reasonable too!!

My concerns are long-standing back to 1993 when Realm first came on the market. The perfume was so overpowering I wondered if the \'odourless\' contents were actually in there!

Maybe the VNO exists, maybe it doesn\'t - I agree too re: the clitoris, apparently it extends upwards as well across the pubic bones. (Try rubbing the the \'blip\' where it crosses and wait for the Jeannie to appear!). It also has been found to head posteriorly to the front wall of the vagina as well, forming - surprise, surprise - the so-called \'G-spot\'. But try finding THAT reference in any Gray\'s Anatomy except for the most recent editions.

Having done psychosexual research now for 11 years in mainstream academia as well as industry-related research, the *big* changes came when products became freely available - eg. 10:13 (for what it is), and Viagra - especially research grants (Yay!).

An explosion of new products and science methods happened, with many researchers let alone the baffled readers (read, \"suckers who\'ll shell out big bucks\") of the lay-press still trying to work out the \'real\' from the surreal fantasies of some over-excited post-graduate.

Pheromones certainly \'seem\' to work for me!!
But \'how?\' is the big question. As another so aptly puts it, APC seems to work on the homeopathic priniciple (\"less is more\"), unless there is a lot more ingredients that are NOT listed. I note that even Xcite! wipes have a mix of 20 - 40 \'ingredients\' and simply saying that only x% of andy-randy-stone is present - \'cos it says so on a label - means pretty much zip, especially if you try and compare it to another product which has 1000 times that amount. Big deal!! What about the other 19 - 39 ingredients NOT listed?

Archives of Sexual Behaviour and Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, plus the International Academy of Sexual Researchers are pretty mainstream, (but try getting an invite!) The ideas generated at the conferences though cover everything from paraphilias to scatological email spams! (The original Viagra research was presented way back in 1994, too, and that was seen as pretty out-there - now it\'s a ho-hum drug!)

The drug companies are doing deals left right and centre to make new oral forms of drugs, viz Cialis from Lily - the next Viagra, and Viacreme - to rub on locally \'down there\'.

Maybe the VNO exists as a useful organ in some humans and not so much in others. It certainly works for critters, but the \'mone effect may be just part of the whole picture of looks, breath, BMW, Armani suits, etc. for guys and gals. Maybe it\'s skin thing rather than a nose thing??

Still, I\'m going to keep my buying and trying the products for myself, but any \'testimonials\' or \'pseudo-science\' in ads for pheromones, I\'ll still look at fairly critically. images/icons/crazy.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I was very sceptical of phermomones at first, and to be honest, the main reason was the marketing. Based on email alone, APC looks like the biggest fraud there can be.

Now I\'m kind of happy pheromones have the bad rap they do, because if people really knew, everyone would use them and it would dilute the effect. (Sorry Bruce!)

If you\'re being critical, I\'d stick with the products that have a solid base of support, like anything stone labs does (AE) or maybe NPA. Personally, Attraction has grown on me, but it\'s weaker than originally thought. It\'s the only one I\'ve used where I\'m positive it had an effect. (I have positive suspicions about AE, and haven\'t had any indications with APC, TE, or NPA yet.)

Skepticism is healthy in this busines, methinks.

[oscar]

Gents,

There\'s probably more Politics in Science than there is Science in Politics!
Don\'t believe in \"PURE\' Science in any instance where funding is coming from any source other than the Scientist himself!

I believe that most Major-League Chemical Senses Institutes, Olfactory Studies Laboratories, etc. rely on funding from a wide base. And prominent in this funding base one can invariably find conservative Moral Majority type groups that can, and DO have an impact on the findings, or at least the PUBLISHED findings of the institutes.

The Bible Belt just isn\'t ready to hear that there\'s anything even RESEMBLING an Aphrodisiac out there, natural or otherwise! And they\'re holding the purse-strings.

Strange though, how a scientific institution will proceed to study the effects of human pheromones while simultaneously denying the existance of a functional human VNO! images/icons/wink.gif

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I agree. Skepticism is gooood!!! Makes for better \'facts\' eventually, plus blows the ripper-offers out of the market.

Don\'t know about the paradox-thingy though; but one serious group of colleagues actually ARE a pheromone research group associated with a Uni and they are questioning the role and neurophysiology of the VNO. They don\'t get a bean from any corporation (for this work anyway), but their research is published in some serious journals and textbooks. They do neuroimaging, electrode placement work as well as tease and/or annoy the office staff with their various concoctions.

Can\'t speak for some other research scientists as the only other ones I know are all busy putting in their 2003 grant requests, and are just doing the pheromone stuff as a hobby as there is no money left in the cookie jar for them.

Tell me about politics and science, man! 17 goes to get a research grant in my post-grad days, and the only group that funded it in the end was an International Womens\' research group!!

Don\'t know about \'bible-belt\' stuff, but I believe that the issue of aphrodisology is about control, and that is fairly scary. Who makes the stuff; who has the patent; who has the info; who markets it; who researches it; even who regulates it. The Moral Majority or whatever, basically stuck its head in the sand for our research - it was whether it had any \'value\' in the end. (Actually, it did - for women, mainly).

These days I\'m in a tangential industry that gets to hand out the money, I have the control - well, a fair bit - and I get to decide (he, he, he!)

Funny thing ... we\'ve had three sponspored sexuality projects in the last three years?
images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well I dont really know if there is a VNO. But if I add my 2 cents, I would say yes because I treated differently ever since I started using pheros no argument about that I can tell you, I mean my second period is almost worships me hehe just kidding but here was a serious change! Maybe the pheros is really a placbo and we think its helping so we raise our self-confindents but so far the pheros HELP big time so far!!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well we can be given help from the moral types and corparations so some of us can have the benefits.