pheremones! increased muscle mass?

[luckyhorse]

i could swear i have increased my muscle mass in the last 2 months ever since using pheremones! am i losing my mind

or has anyone else experienced this weird phenomenon! its too bad i havent measured my arms and shoulders as this is

where i have gained the most! is the whole thing possible?:frustrate

[DrSmellThis]

It's possible that pheromones

have a sort of homeopathic action.

[DAdams91982]

Because of such sheer minute

(or however you spell that) doses of the andro's, its not possible to gain on it. It doesnt have the properties to

transdermally carry it across at an effective rate.

Put it this way... With something such at 4AD... you need

to take 800 - 1000 mgs a day to see results. Or as for one of the most potent transdermals 1-Test... 300 - 600

Mg's. Both of these are considered the "Moderate" dose... so most go much higher.

But anyway... By the looks

of the structures of the mones.. they could have some anabolic/androgenic properties... but by so little that is put

on, and carrier involved... Im 99.99% positive this did not attribute to your gaining of mass.

Adams

[DrSmellThis]

This is someone who obviously

doesn't believe in homeopathy.

[DAdams91982]

I believe in homeopathy...

To an extent, and with certain substances. Andro is not one of em... Why hasnt every other pheromone user here

blown up??? I know some people here have been using phero's for years and then some.

Put it this way...

Phero's and what they do.. You know.. and I would never question what you had to say about them.. actually I would

take what you say as facts...

Anabolics, and Fitness substances is my forte'

Adams

[belgareth]

i could swear

i have increased my muscle mass in the last 2 months ever since using pheremones! am i losing my mind or has anyone

else experienced this weird phenomenon! its too bad i havent measured my arms and shoulders as this is where i have

gained the most! is the whole thing possible?:frustrate
There was a guy on the forum a couple years ago

the swore pheromones caused him to gain weight. In his caase is seemed to be water. Nobody believed him. No we have

a second report of gain from mones, it makes me wonder if there isn't something to it in some very rare cases.

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

...
Anabolics, and Fitness substances is my forte'

Adams
Remember,

AAS and fitness is my forte as well :)

One thing you need to keep in mind is that pheromones may raise serum

testosterone levels to a minor extent (increases LH slightly). For someone who may be at equilibrium without a

proper exercise regime a small change in test level will certainly mean a gain of at least a few pounds...which

would be a noticeable mesomorphosis.

However, salty dogs like us would probably need something a tad bit

stronger :)

Chemo

[DAdams91982]

Remember, AAS and fitness is my forte as well :)

One thing you need to keep in mind is that pheromones

may raise serum testosterone levels to a minor extent (increases LH slightly). For someone who may be at equilibrium

without a proper exercise regime a small change in test level will certainly mean a gain of at least a few

pounds...which would be a noticeable mesomorphosis.

However, salty dogs like us would probably need something a

tad bit stronger :)

Chemo
Smelling Phero's raises LH??? Even then... wouldnt it be so very small of

a change that it wouldnt be to terribly noticable... I mean chertain foods, and herbs, and such also fluctuate test

in small amounts.
Not disagreeing with anything your saying.. just questions from myside... since Phero's are my

area.

Last statment I do agree with though... maybe just a "Tad".

Adams

[DAdams91982]

There was a

guy on the forum a couple years ago the swore pheromones caused him to gain weight. In his caase is seemed to be

water. Nobody believed him. No we have a second report of gain from mones, it makes me wonder if there isn't

something to it in some very rare cases.
These are two very distant cases though... We dont got a

background on if anything changed in his lifestyle or what not... I mean changing weather can fluctuate test a

little bit.

We need a controlled test subject... Someone who isnt a "Salty Dog" 8-)

Adams

[DrSmellThis]

I believe

in homeopathy... To an extent, and with certain substances. Andro is not one of em... Why hasnt every other

pheromone user here blown up??? I know some people here have been using phero's for years and then some.

Put

it this way... Phero's and what they do.. You know.. and I would never question what you had to say about them..

actually I would take what you say as facts...

Anabolics, and Fitness substances is my forte'



Adams This is a crossover area, not strictly about fitness substances. Sometime micro doses of something

can be stronger than mega doses. HgH works in homeopathic form, so why not pheromones? I've had this idea for a

while, but am just now thinking out loud with it. It wouldn't have to work that way for everybody, since

homeopathics don't work that way anyhow. I thought I got a little more cut and put on a little non-fat weight when

I started using them too. I never concluded anything from that, and I still don't. So I'm not saying

you're wrong, because I don't know. But why dismiss a sensible hypothesis out of hand before any evidence

has been gathered?

[DrSmellThis]

Smelling

Phero's raises LH??? Even then... wouldnt it be so very small of a change that it wouldnt be to terribly

noticable... I mean chertain foods, and herbs, and such also fluctuate test in small amounts.
Not disagreeing with

anything your saying.. just questions from myside... since Phero's are my area.

Last statment I do agree with

though... maybe just a "Tad".

AdamsEffect sizes of LH spikes are unclear to date, though significant for

-nol and copulins.

[DAdams91982]

This is a

crossover area, not strictly about fitness substances. HgH works in homeopathic form, so why not pheromones? I've

had this idea for a while, but am just now thinking out loud with it. It wouldn't have to work that way for

everybody, since homeopathics don't work that way anyhow. I thought I got a little more cut and put on a little

non-fat weight when I started using them too. I never concluded anything from that, and I still don't. So I'm not

saying you're wrong, because I don't know. But why dismiss a sensible hypothesis out of hand before any

evidence has been gathered?
HgH is junk in the homeopathic form... HgH to be effective, should be

injected.

The only reason I say this was wrong, is because of the way the "Chemicals" work for this type of

thing... again I dont know much about how pheromone's work. I was quick to backtrack a little bit when chemo said

something about flucuating LH... This is something I would like to know more about. Im still skeptical... actually

damn positive it didn't gain any mass... but am always willing to hear peoples opinions on this, cause like I

said... Im no pro on pheros... so really I'd believe whatever Chemo said, cause he is quite skilled in both

fields.

Adams

[DrSmellThis]

Pardon me a moment, but I'm

feeling a tad cranky and need to vent. Maybe it's that time of the month. I must admit it is a pet peeve of mine

when someone proclaims something is "junk" (like someone's idea) in an arrogant manner without citing evidence, or

demonstrating knowledge of the relevant issues, other than claiming they just know what they are talking about

better than someone else. It squelches discussion, unless someone is willing to be assertive like myself. Few are,

as they think it's not worth it. Usually they're right. Because then I personally feel obliged to spend time

looking up research to fix someone else's irresponsible statement, just because they wouldn't search for the

studies. And yeah, I feel "scoffed at", which should be unnecessary, even though that's just a trivial ego bruise.

Right or wrong, I almost never just say something without multiple good reasons to do so, unless I'm kidding. If

you are just expressing an opinion and guessing you should admit that, but you act like you have some conclusive

evidence. There, I feel better. Nothing personal. You are by no means the worst offender.

Apparently there have

been a few positive studies emerging about homeopathic HgH.



http://www.findarticles.com/p

/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_Feb-March/ai_82881786 (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_Feb-March/ai_82881786)



http://www.metafoods.com/include/metafoods/mf

_hgh_studies.htm (http://www.metafoods.com/include/metafoods/mf_hgh_studies.htm)



http://www.vitaminusa.com/homrechumgro.html

My

nutritionist also showed me a study where those who took homeopathic HgH after quitting the injectable form retained

several HgH benefits much longer than those who quit altogether, but I couldn't find that one this morning. These

studies don't prove anything anyway. But they do suggest more research is warranted, which means that the time for

generating hypotheses is now. When I and my friend took homeopathic HgH for a brief trial, both of us experienced

immediate improvement in sleep and our voices lowered permanently. The product is of course controversial, but the

controversy has not been based on research so far, but on theoretical misconceptions about how homeopathy works

(e.g., that it must be based in "opposites", or that the actual molecule content is what matters.)

[DAdams91982]

I ment no disrespect in the

first place... I told you I value your information on stuff you know... I am speaking with knowledge that I have

gained through real tests on myself, and throught the AAS community.. not through medical studies.. though value may

raise, and certain things pop up in a medical study, doesnt mean it is really working in the subject themselves... I

would trust a guy named EuroJuicer on a forums, who has numerous people backing him up (Name is finctional).. over

someone who has an MD through a textbook.

I'd love to show some references.. but I cant spend much time on

here... I just get to dip in and out here and there.. since Im deployed to Southwest Asia.

Adams





Pardon me a moment, but I'm feeling a tad cranky and need to vent. Maybe it's that time of

the month. I must admit it is a pet peeve of mine when someone proclaims something is "junk" (like someone's idea)

in an arrogant manner without citing evidence, or demonstrating knowledge of the relevant issues, other than

claiming they just know what they are talking about better than someone else. It squelches discussion, unless

someone is willing to be assertive like myself. Few are, as they think it's not worth it. Usually they're right.

Because then I personally feel obliged to spend time looking up research to fix someone else's irresponsible

statement, just because they wouldn't search for the studies. And yeah, I feel "scoffed at", which should be

unnecessary, even though that's just a trivial ego bruise. I almost never just say something without multiple good

reasons to do so, unless I'm kidding. If you are just expressing an opinion and guessing you should admit that, but

you act like you have some conclusive evidence. There, I feel better. Nothing personal. You are by no means the

worst offender.

Apparently there are a few studies emerging about homeopathic HgH.



http://www.findarticles.com/p

/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_Feb-March/ai_82881786 (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_Feb-March/ai_82881786)



http://www.metafoods.com/include/metafoods/mf

_hgh_studies.htm (http://www.metafoods.com/include/metafoods/mf_hgh_studies.htm)



http://www.vitaminusa.com/homrechumgro.html

My

nutritionist told me he saw a study where those who took homeopathic HgH after quitting the injectable form retained

HgH benefits longer than those who quit altogether. These studies don't prove anything, but they do suggest more

research is warranted, which means that the time for generating hypotheses is now. When I and my friend took

homeopathic HgH for a brief trial, both of us experienced immediate improvement in sleep and our voices lowered

permanently. The product is of course controversial, but the controversy has not been based on research so far, but

on theoretical misconceptions about how homeopathy works (e.g., that it must be based in "opposites", or that the

actual molecule content is what matters.)

[CptKipling]

Cops is reputed to raise T

levels by 150%, I'm don't know the figures for -nol but I remember Bruce told JVK to include -nol in SOE because

it caused a LH spike.

I also wonder if products like TE/NPA boost testosterone levels, factoring in the

stimulant and aggressive properties/effects on self.

[bjf]

cpt, JVK just said yesterday that the

150 percent was from a cops and nol mx, and the formula in that study is what he used for SOE/w.

We've had

it wrong on the forum all of this time apparently, as it was not just cops

[CptKipling]

Thanks bjf I hadn't read that

thread yet :thumbsup:

[DAdams91982]

Cops is

reputed to raise T levels by 150%, I'm don't know the figures for -nol but I remember Bruce told JVK to include

-nol in SOE because it caused a LH spike.

I also wonder if products like TE/NPA boost testosterone levels,

factoring in the stimulant and aggressive properties/effects on self.
150%... that is quite a bit... there

is a big different between 500ng/ml, and 750ng... I wish I could do bloodtest every 10 minutes... one before cops,

and one after.

Ha... new preworkout mix, Of course your whey, and V12, and all that fun stuff (M5AA for them on

cycle days), and a consistent dose of your favorite Cop. :rofl:

Okay.. maybe only a few of us will

find that funny.

Adams

[jvkohl]

cpt, JVK just said

yesterday that the 150 percent was from a cops and nol mx, and the formula in that study is what he used for

SOE/w.

We've had it wrong on the forum all of this time apparently, as it was not just cops

I

apologize for being misleading. The cops formula Astrid used is the same in SoE/w. The androstenol was added to the

mix since it was linked to increased LH and likely to increased mood in women. How do you get women to wear a

fragrance product that has more appeal to men than to women? Make sure it has a positive effect on the women (e.g.,

incorporate androstenol)

JVK

[sonicbum]

you guys are trippin if you

think pheromone fragrances actually raise your test enough to see wight gain. something is being over looked, but

its obviously NOT the cologne.

[DAdams91982]

you guys are

trippin if you think pheromone fragrances actually raise your test enough to see wight gain. something is being over

looked, but its obviously NOT the cologne.
I believe the same thing.

Adams

[Tiger4]

cpt, JVK just said yesterday that the 150 percent was from a cops and nol mx, and the formula in that

study is what he used for SOE/w.

We've had it wrong on the forum all of this time apparently, as it was not

just cops
I've noticed very good effects on women wearing beta-nol alone and I am currently experimenting

with PCC alone. Has anyone tried PCC + beta-nol? If regular nol + copulins raises testosterone by 150%, what will

beta-nol + copulins do or even beta-nol + nol + copulins?

[bjf]

tiger, I ws wrong. it is just cops.

I have beta nol. I still don't buy that adding cops offers much benefit. maybe it makes us produce more of our

own pheromones.

[canivaro]

luckyhorse, lemme ask you a

question. have you also noticed a difference in your eating habits? The reason I'm asking is because as of lately,

I've been having irresistable cravings, I get so so so hungry. and i have been eating like a horse, but whats

weird is that i havent noticed getting fatter rather my muscles look more pumped and defined. and i only lift

weights like once a week. It sounds outraggeous I know... but who knows... may have something to do with p-mones

like you say.

[luckyhorse]

no my eating habits are

pretty much the same but my arms have increased in size definetly my veins are popping out of both biceps i do

physical work for a living but have not increased my workload to justify the gain my strength has increased as well!

strange very strange!:thumbsup:

[jvkohl]

I still don't buy that

adding cops offers much benefit. maybe it makes us produce more of our own pheromones.

Do you mean

that you don't believe Astrid's finding of 150% testosterone increase? Such an increase would be very likely to

result in increased masculine pheromone production.

I've had peer review comments like "I don't buy the

model." Such comments, as yours, do not allow for any rational reply, other than tell us why you "don't buy"

---whatever.....

JVK

[BDC_Concepts]

I swear I saw the link to

the Astrid study before or otherwise had it in my personal research files but cannot find it at the moment. Could

someone please post or link to the abstract once again.

Thanks
Matt

[bjf]

Do you mean that you

don't believe Astrid's finding of 150% testosterone increase? Such an increase would be very likely to result in

increased masculine pheromone production.

I've had peer review comments like "I don't buy the model." Such

comments, as yours, do not allow for any rational reply, other than tell us why you "don't buy"

---whatever.....

JVK


No JVK, I meant I don't buy that adding

cops would help men attract women, at least directly because of the cops. Some people use it based on the social

validation theory - as in they get laid, so women (non-partners) should find them desirable.

I don't think

people react to pheromones like that, ie he has cops on him, so he just got laid. It seems to be a non-rational,

instinctual quick response, and I'd guess it would be read as "he has a vagina".

However, I think that maybe

wearing cops could help in the sense that they increase your T-levels, and thus pheromone production, but who knows

how long that process takes. Maybe in the time window when you are wearing the cops, the pheromones from that

t-level increase don't make it to the light of day.

Anyway, my biggest reason for being a non-believer on

wearing cops on a man is that the best indication of usefulness is the experiments of the forum members, and most of

those who tried did not believe them to be useful.

[jvkohl]

I don't think people

react to pheromones like that, ie he has cops on him, so he just got laid. It seems to be a non-rational,

instinctual quick response, and I'd guess it would be read as "he has a vagina".

However, I think that maybe

wearing cops could help in the sense that they increase your T-levels, and thus pheromone production, but who knows

how long that process takes. Maybe in the time window when you are wearing the cops, the pheromones from that

t-level increase don't make it to the light of day.

Anyway, my biggest reason for being a non-believer on

wearing cops on a man is that the best indication of usefulness is the experiments of the forum members, and most of

those who tried did not believe them to be useful.

BJF,
Thank you for the clarification. The

increased T response reportedly occurs after approx. 20 minutes

exposure.

http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/student/html/astrid/femphers.htm

l

I also have doubts about the effectiveness of using cops when it comes to men using them to increase

the interest of women. However, there's a new report I just posted info on that indicates a chemical secreted in

the underarm area of breastfeeding women increases sexual interest in other women.



JVK

[CptKipling]

Thanks for the link JVK.

[CollegeStudent]

However,

there's a new report I just posted info on that indicates a chemical secreted in the underarm area of breastfeeding

women increases sexual interest in other women.[/url]

When can I place my order? :) :lol:

[jvkohl]

When can I

place my order? :) :lol:

My bet is that the chemical signal is based upon either -rone or -nol

production. It is unlikely that it's -none related since -none is typically an aversive scent. Martha McClintock's

group is probably well on their way to isolating the chemical by now. Monel scientists Charles Wysocki and George

Preti already suggested that the key to human pheromone discovery would be finding an effect on luteinizing hormone

(LH) of the particular chemical that's isolated.

JVK

[DrSmellThis]

You might be able to

synthesize the chemical by treating typical steroids or apocrine secretions with the afirementioned mother's milk

bacteria, assuming coryneforms or other strains found more on women don't have to get to it first to make it

"digestible".

[ismellgood]

Perhaps I am not too late to

add to the original theme of this thread:

I also noticed that since I began frequent use of low-dose chikara,

my muscle mass and tone have improved (noted by not only me, but by my woman and the camera as well) while slightly

reducing weight (hence, the tiny bit of fat that I had).

[sonicbum]

make sure you dont use too much

chikara then, cuz you might get gyno symptoms...lol

[ManBeast]

ROFLMAO.... I can just see it

now.... "Pheromones gave me b*tch-tits!"
:LOL:

MB

[DAdams91982]

make sure

you dont use too much chikara then, cuz you might get gyno symptoms...lol
Just keep your Nolva on

hand!!!

Adams

[ismellgood]

The comments about "gyno

symptoms" or breast growth make no sense.
The effects to which I refer seem androgenic, NOT estrogenic.

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

I don't think the

gyno commens were directed to you. It is a running joke that anything anabolic or otherwise is claimed to yield

muscle mass will inevitably have a novice claiming estrogenic side effects. For instance, "I took X grams of

creatine for Y days and now have a size DD bra". Or, "I once looked at a stash of 4-AD and increased my fatty

breast tissue by X percent".

Don't worry...it's a bodybuildr's joke :)

Bobby

[DAdams91982]

The

comments about "gyno symptoms" or breast growth make no sense.
The effects to which I refer seem androgenic, NOT

estrogenic.
Damn killer calm down... Just a joke for someone who uses anabolics... Excess Test Turnes to

Estrogen.

Adams

[ismellgood]

Perhaps the swiftness of my

getting irritated above is further "evidence" of an androgenic effect of pheromones.
:)

[DAdams91982]

Perhaps

the swiftness of my getting irritated above is further "evidence" of an androgenic effect of pheromones.
:)


You mean... the oh so mythical "Roid Rage"??? :rofl:

Adams

[BIONIC MAN]

BJF,
Thank you

for the clarification. The increased T response reportedly occurs after approx. 20 minutes exposure.



http://evol

ution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/student/html/astrid/femphers.html (http://evolution.anthro.univie.ac.at/institutes/urbanethology/student/html/astrid/femphers.html)

I also have doubts

about the effectiveness of using cops when it comes to men using them to increase the interest of women. However,

there's a new report I just posted info on that indicates a chemical secreted in the underarm area of breastfeeding

women increases sexual interest in other women.



JVK
(http://) I

AGREE WITH JV, the copulins will raise test levels scientifically proven. and the first time i tried cops under my

nose i got 2 more reps on a heavy weight bench press. but i also had some very potent none on too. so from now on

cops goes under nostrils before workout time. :type:

[jvkohl]

I AGREE WITH JV,

the copulins will raise test levels scientifically proven. and the first time i tried cops under my nose i got 2

more reps on a heavy weight bench press. but i also had some very potent none on too. so from now on cops goes under

nostrils before workout time. :type:

I'd advise against using the none; it would be somewhat like

working out with an alpha male--a guy who could always outdo you. The effect in other animals is a form of chemical

castration, where the alpha male's testosterone increases (because he's the undeclared winner), while yours

decreases. I'm ridiculously paranoid about this -- to the point of trying to ensure I don't inhale, when someone

who's more muscular than me passes by. Of course, when an attractive woman passes by, I'll do my best to catch a

good whiff of her--that's always come natural to me, even long before I knew anything about

pheromones.

Okay, I know some of you probably workout with a friend, or sometimes use a "spotter." If the guy

is helping you, he's probably not going to have the effect of an alpha male. But if you can find a nice young lady

to work out with, that's the best scenario; even better than using

cops.

JVK

[BIONIC MAN]

I'd advise

against using the none; it would be somewhat like working out with an alpha male--a guy who could always outdo you.

The effect in other animals is a form of chemical castration, where the alpha male's testosterone increases

(because he's the undeclared winner), while yours decreases. I'm ridiculously paranoid about this -- to the point

of trying to ensure I don't inhale, when someone who's more muscular than me passes by. Of course, when an

attractive woman passes by, I'll do my best to catch a good whiff of her--that's always come natural to me, even

long before I knew anything about pheromones.

Okay, I know some of you probably workout with a friend, or

sometimes use a "spotter." If the guy is helping you, he's probably not going to have the effect of an alpha male.

But if you can find a nice young lady to work out with, that's the best scenario; even better than using cops.



JVK
(http://) I was not sure about power increase ,

i did read studies by you and some other researchers . and the cops study did show test increase. the none could be

bad for lifting is what you are saying? but i guess the other guys in the gym would be weaker since my od none would

make me the alpha male:trout: one question i was pondering on does rone convert to none ?:think:

[belgareth]

But if you can

find a nice young lady to work out with, that's the best scenario; even better than using cops.



JVK
(http://)
Wonderful! I knew there was a good reason

to spar with Linda, beside her being pleassant to look at that is.

[jvkohl]

the none could

be bad for lifting is what you are saying? but i guess the other guys in the gym would be weaker since my od none

would make me the alpha male:trout: one question i was pondering on does rone convert to none

?:think:

The none OD at the gym doesn't make much sense to me. I'd care more about the cops effect

on me, rather than the none effect on others. There's almost always someone who's more muscular, and usually more

men than women on the free weights. Best to ensure that cops are increasing your testosterone, and not worry about

your none effect on other men. Besides, the none OD isn't likely to get any positive attention from women. I don't

think that any studies have shown rone to none conversion--not sure if that's even possible due to a difference

between C-17 and C-19 conversion.

JVK

[jvkohl]

Wonderful! I knew

there was a good reason to spar with Linda, beside her being pleassant to look at that is.

Think

about the cops effect when she kicks to the head. Now, try not to think about it next time she does it--focus man,

focus.

Best workout partner I ever had was a young lady who sounded like she was having an orgasm each time

she increased the weight while approaching her max. Go Sally, Go--more weight, more weight, lots of guys cheering

her on, she never needed to ask for a spotter.

JVK

[BIONIC MAN]

The none OD at

the gym doesn't make much sense to me. I'd care more about the cops effect on me, rather than the none effect on

others. There's almost always someone who's more muscular, and usually more men than women on the free weights.

Best to ensure that cops are increasing your testosterone, and not worry about your none effect on other men.

Besides, the none OD isn't likely to get any positive attention from women. I don't think that any studies have

shown rone to none conversion--not sure if that's even possible due to a difference between C-17 and C-19

conversion.

JVK
(http://)

Thanks :box: im very interested in the rone , it just seems people run if you got an od going on with the none.:run:

could you od on rone?:think:

[CptKipling]

i find that if I put some TE

under my nose I get very aggressive which is useful when doing anything to do with sport.

I go running, play

football, sprint, cycle, work out a little, etc., and I usually wear both EW and TE under my nose if I really want

to go for it.

[jvkohl]

Thanks :box: im

very interested in the rone , it just seems people run if you got an od going on with the none.:run: could you od on

rone?:think:

I've only known a few women who were super sensitive to rone, and found it

aversive-except for pregnant women, who almost invariably found it to smell very bad--even in the lowest

concentration. Simply put, I think you can OD on anything, but an OD with rone is much less likely than with other

products.

JVK

[BIONIC MAN]

I've only

known a few women who were super sensitive to rone, and found it aversive-except for pregnant women, who almost

invariably found it to smell very bad--even in the lowest concentration. Simply put, I think you can OD on anything,

but an OD with rone is much less likely than with other products.



JVK
(http://) the

rone might be a better choice for me with a little nol. the none makes people run from me:run: that does make me

wonder why people push none so much .:thumbsup: