Application Methods and Volumes

[CptKipling]

There has been recent discussion about various application methods and their respective volumes, so I

thought I would start a thread to have it all in one place.




Sprays
[/font

]
[font=Verdana]We know (thanks to scientist) that

A4.2 gives .13 ml per spray. It would be better if we could have the figures for all of the spray products (Chikara,

Perception, TE, etc.), because the volume varies widely.



Spraying is more convenient for fragranced products which have a concentration

(mg/ml) suited to applying large volumes (i.e not NPA), and is normally associated with alcohol products. If you are

not confident about the suitability of the concentration or the fragrance, don't

spray.




Drops



A drop can either be from a pipette or

the dropper insert in a product. Normally estimated to be around .05 ml, drops actually vary greatly in volume

between products (or more specifically carrier agents) and droppers/pipettes. Again, it would be useful to know the

drop volumes for each product that the method applies to (this is quite easy to do, and you don't waste any

product).




Roll-on

inches



Brought into popularity by SOE, this one is harder

to measure. However, a previous forum member (Shoe) measured it quite accurately to be about 28 inches per ml, or

.36 ml. Most mixes heavy on di-propelene glycol (SOE, AE, PPA, etc.) can be approximated to be at that volume, but

alcohol or water based mixes will vary.




Dabs
[color=black][

/color]
This one is fraught with controversy

;)

There are several problems with quantifying a

dab, including; variations in method, carrier agent (alcohol, water, etc.), and also bottle size. The "accepted"

method is to cover the opening with a finger or thumb, invert the bottle to wet the chosen digit, and then applying

the liquid on the digit (after returning the bottle to a more sensible orientation, obviously ). Bottle size can

be measured by the size of the opening, so that one isn't really a problem, but volume of fluid yielded from each

dab will inevitably vary between carrier agent. However, from my rough measurements, the variation caused by these

factors is quite small, and I would estimate the average dab volume to be about 0.02 ml, give or take a few

thousandths of a ml.

To many this is the

application method of choice, as is allows application of a small amount of product with

precision.





To date, there quite a few products for which the default application method*

has been measured.

In

summary:

SOE

- inch, 0.036 ml




A4.2 - spray, 0.13

ml

.........

If anyone

has the volumes for any other products default method at hand, could they please post them here. Also, if you

disagree with anything said above, feel free to correct me!





*with TE I think knowing both the spray and dab volume is relevant to most

people.

[CptKipling]

The Beta 2 bottle gave

520 sprays, which was 0.0288 ml / spray, or 0.0192 mg total pheros / spray.

The two final release bottles gave

approx. 225 sprays each; 0.0667 ml / spray, or 0.0444 mg total pheros / spray.
Chikara (beta) -

0.0288 ml (spray)

Chikara (final) - 0.0667 ml (spray)

[CptKipling]

Anyone have the AE drop

volume?

[ismellgood]

And my question please (third

thread):
how many ml per npa "dab"?

[Indigo]

And my question

please (third thread):
how many ml per npa "dab"?
I will get my NPA at the weekend and test it!

[ismellgood]

Indigo,
I look forward to

reading of your test results (quantitative as well as experiential).

[BassMan]

Sprays

[co

lor=black][/color]We know (thanks to scientist) that A4.2 gives .13 ml per spray.


I have measured several A4.2 bottles, and found they give much larger sprays than Scientist got. One of the

problems with measuring sprayers is that they are not designed for continuous spraying. Continuous spraying results

in vacuum buildup in the bottle, and a false (low) reading.

Relieving the vacuum (by opening the bottle every 10

sprays or so) resulted in a reading of 92 sprays for 20.0 ml of Isoprop (which is what A4.2 is made up in), or 0.217

ml / spray. This was fairly repeatable (I have forgotton the variance) across several bottles (sorry, it's been a

while).

[BassMan]

Anyone have the

AE drop

volume?http://www.l

ove-scent.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1827&highlight=alter+drop+volume (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1827&highlight=alter+drop+volume)

Works out to 60 drops / ml or 0.017

ml / drop.

IIRC, somebody else measured in at about 50 drop / ml. With drops that small (and especially with the

relatively high viscosity di-glycol base), the angle of the dropper is probably to blame for the disparity.



-Bass

[CptKipling]

Thanks BassMan,

The sprayer

vacuum issue really sucks (no pun intended). To clear something up, am I correct in understanding that you are

saying no vacuum occurs with regular use? If this is the case, great, 0.217 ml per spray can confidantly be used.



On a related issue, would there be much difference between an alcohol and a water spray from the same atomiser? My

guess would be that the difference would be so small that it is unimportant.


Anyone have TE's sprayer

volume?

[eric_pelletier_tw]

any stats on the qty

for the sprayer bruce sells?


[got my stuff!! :o) ]

[eric_pelletier_tw]

if not how do i

calculate the ml? dropper :?

[BassMan]

Thanks

BassMan,

The sprayer vacuum issue really sucks (no pun intended). To clear something up, am I correct in

understanding that you are saying no vacuum occurs with regular use? If this is the case, great, 0.217 ml per spray

can confidantly be used.

On a related issue, would there be much difference between an alcohol and a water spray

from the same atomiser? My guess would be that the difference would be so small that it is unimportant.




Anyone have TE's sprayer volume?I would imagine that with normal use, the vacuum dissipates between

sprays. The problem with single sprays is that the first spray is usually light because part of what's in the

sprayer has evaporated.

My own solution to all this is to work with rather dilute solutions. I try to adjust

things so that I use between four and six sprays per application. That way, the light first spray doesn't matter as

much. I premix my cover scent - usually diluted, with the mone mix. The diluted mix lets me cover a lot of area.



There seems to be a lower limit to where this will work. I didn't understand what was going on until the

Perception theories hit the forum. Apparently, I've found a balance between transdermal absorption, conversion, and

overall concentration. My skin seems to be very phero-friendly - the more the stuff reacts with me, the better the

effects. In any event, that's what works for me.

I have a steno pad with three years worth of notes. I will go

through it in the next couple of days and post all the various measurements I've done for various sprayers and

bottles and droppers.

-Bass

[CptKipling]

Thanks again BM that would be

usefull.


Eric,

I think I remember someone posting that, but I could be mistaken. If you want to do it

yourself you would be better off measuring by spraying a certain amount of sprays into something and measuring the

volume, or measuring a volume out and counting how many sprays it takes to deplete it.

[CptKipling]

Aha! Good ol' Oscar!





Whitehall,

I'm pretty sure those atomizers are the same as the ones included in the P10 kits. Stone

claims that theirs deliver 65 sprays per 10 ml. So it's @.154ml/spray.

I've long questioned the 20 drops per

ml. estimate. When using eyedroppers, I've gotten @300 drops into a 5ml bottle! But the drops from the NPA built-in

dropper are huge! If you're after precise ratios, do yourself a favor and use twin eyedroppers, or a calibrated

syringe for measuring. The dropper insert of the NPA pries off very easily and goes back in nicely too.

I too

would work with balancing the cologne/NPA ratio to your tastes without adding any dilutants, especially at first.

See how the NPA changes the fragrance before introducing another variable. Let it "steep" a day or two before

committing any quantities to a mix. And start out on the light side on the phero dose. I've had good results with a

5 to 1, Issey/NPA mix, but it all hinges on the intensity of your cologne.

And if you MUST cut it, Walter's

right, get some Everclear. It's twice the alcohol content of vodka, costs about the same, and leaves virtually NO

residual scent.
Happy Mixing! images/icons/wink.gif

Oscar images/icons/laugh.gif




So that's 0.154 ml per spray for the LS atomisers. But that may not be accurate in light of BM's

vacuum effect.

[eric_pelletier_tw]

i lost my sprayer

..geting another one {grrrr...} i wasnt able to test it troughly but i got easly 56 sprays from 3/5 of the btle

[removable flask of 10ml] that means +- 0,1ml /spray
? right ? [tested with water]

[eric_pelletier_tw]

well found my sprayer

did repeated(5 times) test on it with water.it is rather stable for the dosage 70 Full sprays for the flask filled

to the shorter part right before the screwable part.Dont know the quantity but must be aroud the 10ml limit witch

gives us 0,142ml or so per spray

[bjf]

Roll-on

inches



Brought into popularity by SOE, this one is harder

to measure. However, a previous forum member (Shoe) measured it quite accurately to be about 28 inches per ml, or

.36 ml. Most mixes heavy on di-propelene glycol (SOE, AE, PPA, etc.) can be approximated to be at that volume, but

alcohol or water based mixes will vary.

So would it be more or less inches for perfumer's

alcohol?

[CptKipling]

More inches per unit volume.



It's quite complicated, and depends on suface tension, viscosity, and "wetness" (as BassMan put it in a thread a

while ago) etc.

I think that base in SOE (di-propelene glycol?) give the greatest volume per inch, then

alcohol, then water.

[CptKipling]

bump

Any know the *Gold*

Perception spray volume? I'm looking for it now but if someone knows it that would be helpfull.

[bjf]

Bobby or Matt said it, I believe.

[CptKipling]

I found a post by BassMan

saying about 8 sprays per ml.

I will change this volume to the Platinum version's volume (intended to be 0.1 ml

per spray iirc) when it is released.

Anybody have any more volumes to post?

[CptKipling]

To recap, I currently don't

have the *spray* volumes for:

Pheromax
The Edge
Attraction

...and the various dibs dabs and drops for most

of the other products. Maybe the best way to do that is to find the volume of a dab of TE, as that will will give an

approximante volume for the rest of the alcohol products aswell.

[einstein]

Pheromaxx keychain is .067

ml/spray. I got 30 sprays from filling it with cheap vodka.

[CptKipling]

Thanks :thumbsup:

Keep

'em comin'!

[CptKipling]

bump bump bump

[BassMan]

Anybody have

any more volumes to post?
Don't even ask why...

I got 168 dabs out of a PF bottle containing 1.5 ml

of Denat Alcohol last night. That's 112 dabs per ml or roughly 0.0089 ml/dab.

-Bass

[Elvis]

Just reading this thread again

tells me we need a level playing surface. There is a lot of excellent work from a lot of people but, having said

that, the constant comparisons/translations/transpositions are tiresome.

Think about all the variables, it's

madness. I feel it's mind numbing and needs simplified.

Just my 2 cents.

[CptKipling]

wh...

Thanks BassMan ;)



Did you ever look in your steno pad?

[Red Stripe]

A while back someone figured

out the max effective dosage window for most people, but I can't find the thread. Anyone remember? Thanks.

[j5fakt0r]

Wow this is a pretty old

thread. I'm glad to know that a bottle of chikara can last about 225 sprays. And I'm somewhat surprised that a

drop of AE is small enough to last 60 drops per ml! At least I'll know that this stuff will last more than a month

even if I apply each and every day.

[CptKipling]

The TE sprayer gives about 8

sprays per ml, which is 0.125 ml per spray.

[BassMan]

wh...

Thanks

BassMan ;)

Did you ever look in your steno pad?Just saw this, sorry...

Yeah, I looked and realized

that I have several different figures for the same sprayer. So it's not going to be of much use until I can redo

the measurements.

-Bass

[CptKipling]

Thanks anyway Bass :thumbsup:

[minatrix]

I hate the dab method. Is

there not a way to not waste such good pheromones? I've tried thinking of ways to apply pheromones without wasting

so much. But putting a dab on my finger and applying it to the parts of my body that I want is not working for me.

Wastes too much pheros.

[SirAngel]

I hate the dab

method. Is there not a way to not waste such good pheromones? I've tried thinking of ways to apply pheromones

without wasting so much. But putting a dab on my finger and applying it to the parts of my body that I want is not

working for me. Wastes too much pheros.
Why is that? using dabs is not wasting much. use the same finger

over and over again!
I think a spray is the most wastin method of unsing pheromones.
You could always go for an

empty soe roller and use that..

[Riley]

Quick question on the NPA

"dabs"-

When people are talking about putting on x number of dabs of NPA, is that WITH the little plastic

dropper in (finger against the little pinhole), or are they removing the plastic insert and dabbing like with other

products (finger over the whole mouth of the bottle)? Obviously, there is a huge difference between the two, and I

would hate to find out I am extremely under/over dosing.


Riley

[Rbt]

A comment about spray atomizers:



I recently got Perception, which comes with two atomizers, one for the cover scent and one for the actual 'mones.

Problem I've been having is I aim one atomizer at my neck and the spray hits my left shoulder, I aim at my neck

with the second atomizer and it hits my right chest... So it becomes not only a question of how much product gets

dispensed per spray, but WHERE it ends up... If my aim doesn't improve I'm considering transferring my collection

of products to roller-ball applicators. Plus I've only used the sprayers a few times as yet so maybe they need to

break in?