View Full Version : Application: dabbing, sprayong, rolling ?!?!
Indigo
08-24-2004, 05:06 AM
Hello,
I'd like to start a small ( or bigger ) discussion about pheromone application
methods.
The "Pheromone Cook Book" says about spraying: " No way..." without any detailed explanation.
There
dabbing and rolling is recommended.
My personal opinion at the moment about that issue is:
Spraying:
+
comfortable use, very hygienic: no direct contact to the body, so the product in the bottle won't be polluted
-
Very unprecise, as differnet atomizers deliver quite different amounts of the product per spray.
You spray a
certain amount of the mones into the air instead of onto your body ( how much depends on the sprayhead you use.
Rolling:
+ comfortable use, no loss of the product
- unprecise, you don't really know how much product each
inch delivers. Rolling over your body the product within the bottle can be polluted.
Dabbing ( actual my
preferred method ):
+ very precise, if you fill your products into small glas bottles you can by in the
drugstore ( about 50 dabs per ml, I tested it with several bottles with an inner diameter of the opening of 8-12 mm
).
If you only fill a certain small amount into those bottles and only dab with them, very hygienic method.
All
pheromones get where you want them and nowhere ele.
- not as comfortable as the other methods.
Please tell me
your opinions about it and your experience!
Another point:
Is it advisable to applicate the mones into the
hair?
Best regards
Ingo
Ingo: Thanks for that!
Couple
of things, though. I've had terrible luck with mones in the hair. Obviously you have had a different experience,
please elaborate on that.
Also, on the 50 dabs per ml. That would mean an NPA bottle would have 250 dabs.
That seems way more than I ever got out of it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these
things.
Indigo
08-24-2004, 06:54 AM
Couple of things,
though. I've had terrible luck with mones in the hair. Obviously you have had a different experience, please
elaborate on that.
Hello,
well, I don't have any specific experience applying the mones into the hair.
I was just a informative question and I wanted to ask about your opinions about that.
Also, on
the 50 dabs per ml. That would mean an NPA bottle would have 250 dabs. That seems way more than I ever got out of
it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these things.
In fact I tested with
water, but as far as I know the difference in viscosity of water and alcohol is not more than about 20%. Beyond that
I often fill an certain amount ( 1 or 2 ml ) into the application bottle.
And the results were very similar.
I
agree, perhaps I should do a more accurat test with alcohol.
But the main reason for the deviation is probably the
NPA bottle. I don't know how its aperture looks like, but I guess it's much different from an simple opening of an
glass bottle with a screw closure!
If you use them you will probably get similar results.
When I will get NPA or
TE in the future I'll definitely fill a part of them them into my bottles of brown glas for application. That is
IMHO the best for the mones in the original bottle and best for me regarding precesion!
But I am still open to
change my opinion!
Best regards
Ingo
Can you link to a site with a picture
of the bottles you like???
How many mL and what does it look like?
Indigo
08-24-2004, 08:26 AM
Can you link to a site
with a picture of the bottles you like???
How many mL and what does it look like?Hello,
well, the
bottles I use look nearly the same like those of PPA. The difference
that they are 10ml bottles and the opening is
slightly bigger ( not in a relevant extent ).
For impermeability they have a plastic inlet dor dropping. For
dabbing I just take that out.
But I think you could leave it away anyway!
The bottles I use look similar to the
10ml version shown below.
In general you can use any brown glas bottle of any size with an opening of 8-14mm.
Just
the size that you can get a finger on well.
Best regards
Ingo
Indigo
08-25-2004, 12:04 AM
That seems way more
than I ever got out of it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these things.
OK,OK
your viscosity argument didn't let me rest. So I made a new test with the alcohol based PPA and pure alcohol. I
found out that alcohol on fact does shows different characteristics than water. This obviously has also something to
do with the different surface tensions. Dabbing PPA respectively alcohol, there stays more liqid at your finger. So
I did the test again with quite exact 1ml ( measured with a pipette ) and I got about 33 dabs. So it may average
between 30 and 35 dabs per ml.
Now I am quite sure about that. If you use a similar bottel ( no matter if of
plastics or glas ) with a diameter of round about 10mm ( so that you get your forefinger on ) one dab has
approximately 0.03ml ( +/- 10%) ! Let it be +/- 20 percent! I think that would not do relevant differences.
The point is you know with adequate precision how much product you put on. And that is the most important thing
about it. Beyond that the result is reproductionable very well, compared to spraying. If you found out 3 dabs is
good for you, you just take three dabs the next day and have the same amount of pheromones again!
Regards
Ingo
Thanks Indigo! That sounds more
accurate.
I agree dabbing is a great way to go. Anyone try dabbing Chikara??
Also, can Perception be
dabbed? Will contamination be an issue?
Indigo
08-25-2004, 07:19 AM
Thanks Indigo! That
sounds more accurate.
I agree dabbing is a great way to go. Anyone try dabbing Chikara??
Also, can Perception
be dabbed? Will contamination be an issue?Hello bjf,
first question:
How did you get around to call
me Indigo ( sounds good, no complaint, just for information ) ?????
Second my opinion about your second
question:
I don't now, if you can screw off the sprayhead of the Perception bottle. But you could easyly spray
it into another one.
Regarding the contamination, I think that will always be a problem. Even when I filled 2-3 ml
to my dabbing bottles during my tests, it took not too long to see that the water got dirty ( fat and bacteria from
your fingers ). Although I do not know, how much bacteria get from your finges into the bottlem I think they can't
be good for the pheromones!
So IMHO for going the save way it would be best to fill only the amount you need for
the next few weeks into your application bottle.
:thumbsup: The best application method over all is IMO a
bottle with an pipette cap like that of P10 for example. I tested that und I got about 240 drops out of 10ml of
alcohol. So one drop delivers approximately 0.04ml of the product.
With such an bottle you have
the best of all worlds:
1. Small amounts per drop ( almost like with dabs), so that you can spread the same
amount of pheromones to different parts of your body.
2. Relatively comfortabel ( drop on your finger and apply
like a dab ), you have to transfill only one time and that's it
3. No waste of any kind
4. Absolutely
hygienic, nothing gets into the bottle :thumbsup:
The problem I have with this method is that the pipettes of
the bottles I can buy here deliver much more liquid ( about 0.1 ml, almost as much as one spray delivers). So
dabbing will stay my prefered method as long a I cannot get appropriate pipette bottles. ( Where do the Stonelabs
get them ?????????? )
Best regards
Ingo
Ingo,
Sorry man, every time I
see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. I've been called "BTF" by quite a few many times for some
reason, so welcome to the club, I guess.
0.04 per drop compared to 0.03 for a dab? Wow that is pretty good
dropper. The only reason I asked about contamination was because Perception has no alcohol in it to kill bacteria,
so I was wondering if it was more vunerable. The other products seem to be able to handle the bacteria.
How
much per drop do you think comes out of the AE dropper, btw?
Indigo
08-25-2004, 07:40 AM
Ingo,
Sorry man,
every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. I've been called "BTF" by quite a few many
times for some reason, so welcome to the club, I guess.
0.04 per drop compared to 0.03 for a dab? Wow that is
pretty good dropper. The only reason I asked about contamination was because Perception has no alcohol in it to kill
bacteria, so I was wondering if it was more vunerable. The other products seem to be able to handle the bacteria.
How much per drop do you think comes out of the AE dropper, btw?Hello bjf,
well, actually P10 has no
dropper ( they are always crap IMHO), but a pipette in the cap. That's why it releases such small drops.
Thus I
would never use dropper inlets like that of AE.
Regarding Perception: I totally forgot that it is water
based.
So in that special case I suggest to use the :rant: original sprayer ( should be ok ) :rasp: or
a
:thumbsup: pipette bottle :thumbsup:. When using a dabbing bottle go sure, not to store the content in it too
long!
Regards
Ingo
Indigo
08-25-2004, 11:37 PM
Ingo,
Sorry man,
every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. Hello bjf,
mmmmh, perhaps I should
change my username to Indigo!? It sounds not bad ( at least its a much more interesting name than just Ingo ).
Beyond that it't one of my favorite colours.
And you will never have a problem remembering my name again.
I'll
think about it. I am still raising points to buy an online coupon, so let's see what the next month bring in.
Best regards
Ingo
Haha. It is a cool name...
Indigo
08-26-2004, 05:38 AM
Haha. It is a cool
name...
Well... I think I will do it. In the long run it will be worth the 2000 points! I just have to
raise funds.
Ingo ( Indigo )
Indigo
09-05-2004, 01:04 AM
Hello folks,
I found a picture
of bottles looking quite exact the same like thosse I use.
I did a final test with alcohol with these pipettes.
The result is that one drop delivers 0.025ml of liquid ( I got 120 drops out of exact
3ml alcohol ). I did the test twice and the difference were only 2 drops.
For oil or water basdes products
like Perception the values will be different.
I'll do the test for water later !!
:thumbsup: So if you can get
such a bottle you have a perfect way of application:
Transfill only once, no contamination and precise dosage !
:thumbsup:
Best regards
Ingo
Indigo
09-05-2004, 03:00 AM
Hello,
I did the test for water
too!
One drop delivers quite exactly 0.05ml of water
( 40 drops on 2 ml, tested twice )!
Best
regards
Ingo
You got 0.03 for the alcohol dabs,
which would make dabs bigger than drops - with that dropper at least.
Indigo
09-05-2004, 06:22 AM
You got 0.03 for the
alcohol dabs, which would make dabs bigger than drops - with that dropper at least.
Hello,
yes, that
is exactly what I found out with that pipette ( on the picture )!
Regards
Ingo
Ingo, is this the same as an AE
bottle?
Indigo
09-09-2004, 06:39 AM
Ingo, is this the same
as an AE bottle?
I never used AE. AE has got a 7.5 ml bottle. The ones I use have 10ml. But as I have used
pipettes of 50ml bottles and they were only longer than the smaller versions I guess the drop size of the AE version
should be similar! But I don't know for sure.
Best regards
Ingo
I tried looking at the drop thing in
picture, the end looked somewhat similar. Bassman did a great job with the chikara measurements, so I was just
trying to figure out what a chikara spray equaled. Looks like it going to be about the same as an AE drop.
Indigo
09-09-2004, 07:01 AM
I tried looking at the
drop thing in picture, the end looked somewhat similar. Bassman did a great job with the chikara measurements, so I
was just trying to figure out what a chikara spray equaled. Looks like it going to be about the same as an AE
drop.
Hello bjf,
Well... as I said: I think the atomizers probably never release the same amount per
spray, especially not the first sprays after the bottle has lain or been shaken. When I uesed sprayers I always had
to take 2-3 sprays before the atomizer released consistent amounts per spray.
I will get my Chikara at the weekend
hopefully and definitely refill
into my application bottles for dabbing or dropping with the pipette.
:thumbsup:
That way I will be certain to get the exact amount I wish to get!:thumbsup:
Best regards
Ingo
Indigo
09-11-2004, 05:23 AM
Ingo,
Sorry man,
every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. I've been called "BTF" by quite a few many
times for some reason, so welcome to the club, I guess.
Hello bjf,
now you'll never have
problems again remembering my name!
I am back as Indigo !!!!!!
Pingu Slap gave me the points for it
!
Best regards
Ingo
Wow Indigo! Cool stuff. Just remember
to sign your name Indigo not Ingo as you did above :)
I'm looking forward to more of your experiments,
especially the NPA one!
Indigo
09-11-2004, 09:59 AM
Wow Indigo! Cool
stuff. Just remember to sign your name Indigo not Ingo as you did above :)
Mmmmh, perhaps you are right.
I will also sign with Indigo! I thought of Indigo just as a more original Nickname at first and staying at Ingo
signing
my posts.
I'm looking forward to more of your experiments, especially the NPA
one!
Unfortunately I didn't get my Chikara and NPA today, so I will do the tests not until next weekend (
I am not at home over the week ).
I think I'll just measure the opening size of the NPA bottle without inlet.
If
it is more or less equal to that of my bottles the dab size should be the same! We will see !
Best regards
Indigo :D
ismellgood
09-11-2004, 10:33 AM
bjf,
you wrote a while
ago that you did not get 250 dabs from an npa bottle.
what is your best estimate of how many dabs you did get per
(5 ml) bottle?
smellgood, that was not me. I did a
dropper experiment, but nothing dabbing, or to do with NPA bottles.
Sorry.
ismellgood
09-11-2004, 10:39 AM
bjf,
I was referring
to your message above (it is message number 2)
Oh, sorry for the confusion. I never
formally tested it. It just seemed like I would use up the bottles quicker than 80 applications of 3 dabs.
ismellgood
09-11-2004, 10:46 AM
bjf,
if you do not
mind my persisting,
what is your best guess of how many dabs you did get per npa bottle?
Imsellgood. I think that when I used
to dab, I would turn the bottle upside down, then quickly turn it back over and quickly take my finger off the lid
and apply it to myself.
I've found that I was using too much - I got extreme reactions which were either
really fun or not so fun - and have cut back. I use one dab less, and also keep my finger over the top of the
bottle a little longer when I turn it right side up. This lets some of the excess drip off.
Therefore, I
think the amoutn of applications I used to get out of an NPA bottle is less than I would now. I am assuming Indigo
measured using the method #2 of dabbing. With my #1 method I probably got 30 or 40 applications at 3 dabs. That is
a huge discrepancy from the 250 dabs he got, even with the discrepency in technique.
It is really tough for
me to guess how much is in there. Best thing to do would be to measure it.
Indigo
09-17-2004, 09:16 AM
bjf,
if you
do not mind my persisting,
what is your best guess of how many dabs you did get per npa bottle?
Hello
ismellgood,
I just got my 10ml NPA bottle! It has exactly the same opening as my application
bottles. As I said
using the inlet you will never have consistent results per dab, even if I'd test it! I was easy to remove the
inlet!
So when dabbing without the inlet ( I tested that several times ) you get an average of 0.03ml per dab (
about 170 dabs out of one 5ml bottle )!
I hope that helps!
Best regards
Indigo
eric_pelletier_tw
09-20-2004, 09:08 AM
i have found that
sprayers bruce sell are quite consistent [except for the 2 first & few last sprays]70 sprays per btle look at
"application methods & quantities " tread for more details none the less spraing CAN be inconsitent due to
mentioned facts above. Also & more than anything the way you spray is what will afect the results most but for the
variance in the sprays its minor.
BDC_Concepts
09-20-2004, 09:27 AM
Right, there are atomizers
that can be quite consistant. You just measure the amount of sprays (removing priming/ending) and divide
accordingly. You can dilute most products out there by just adding ethanol, IPM, or PG if you really wanted to.
You'd just have to do figure out the math (volume, total contents, what you WANT, etc).
Matt
Indigo
09-21-2004, 12:11 AM
Right, there
are atomizers that can be quite consistant. You just measure the amount of sprays (removing priming/ending) and
divide accordingly. You can dilute most products out there by just adding ethanol, IPM, or PG if you really wanted
to. You'd just have to do figure out the math (volume, total contents, what you WANT, etc).
Matt
Hello,
what would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?
Regards
Indigo
BDC_Concepts
09-21-2004, 07:34 AM
Hello,
what would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?
Regards
Indigo
I'd probably
use Isopropyl myristate (IPM) to dilute it. I don't know exactly what their carrier is, but I wouldn't be
surprised if it was IPM. I'd probably test a small amount first just to make sure everything went well though.
Indigo
09-21-2004, 08:07 AM
I'd probably
use Isopropyl myristate (IPM) to dilute it. I don't know exactly what their carrier is, but I wouldn't be
surprised if it was IPM. I'd probably test a small amount first just to make sure everything went well
though.
Where can I get that?
CptKipling
09-21-2004, 12:22 PM
iirc the carrier is a mineral
oil of some sort.
DrSmellThis
09-21-2004, 12:35 PM
Hello,
what
would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?
Regards
Indigo
The proper thing to dilute it with is
denatured palm oil, from a perfuming perspective.
Indigo
09-21-2004, 11:20 PM
Thanks for the answers!
Will
PI also solve in alcohol based products?
DrSmellThis
09-22-2004, 03:18 AM
...alcohol dissolves oil.
BassMan
09-22-2004, 04:23 AM
Thanks for the
answers!
Will PI also solve in alcohol based products?I haven't tested PI/w. PI/m will dissolve in Isoprop
but not in EtOH. I had originally written that there were two PI/m's, but I think I was wrong and was trying to
dissolve it in two different alcohols.
-Bass
Indigo
09-22-2004, 04:41 AM
I haven't tested
PI/w. PI/m will dissolve in Isoprop but not in EtOH. I had originally written that there were two PI/m's, but I
think I was wrong and was trying to dissolve it in two different alcohols.
-Bass
Mmmmh,
interesting. I often mix PPA ( Isopropyl basis I think ) with P10 and some Ehanol. It dissolves very well. What
would happen dissolving PI in Isoprop and than adding some Ehanol for dillution?
joseperez234
09-22-2004, 07:37 AM
so if one dab of alchool
say chikara is .025 ml , how many dabs would be a decent dose???
oscar
09-22-2004, 08:01 AM
Indigo,
I once added a couple of
drops of PI to a cologne sample tube but it didn't mix very well. When shaken it went cloudy and bubbly, and after
being left to settle it formed two distinct layers.
However, it does dissolve nicely in 190 Proof Everclear (95%
Alcohol) and will not fall out of solution.
Whenever I plan to mix with PI (/m or /w), I cut it with Everclear
first.
PI has reportedly used at least two carrier formulations over the years. I won't guarantee that the
method that works for one will necessarily work for the other. I think I have the mineral oil based
formula.
Experiment with small quantities.
Oscar :)
DrSmellThis
09-22-2004, 12:12 PM
I haven't
tested PI/w. PI/m will dissolve in Isoprop but not in EtOH. I had originally written that there were two PI/m's,
but I think I was wrong and was trying to dissolve it in two different alcohols.
-BassYou need to use
everclear or hospital grade ethanol.
BassMan
09-22-2004, 01:45 PM
You need to use
everclear or hospital grade ethanol.I was using Everclear - unfortunately, the stuff we get in Florida is
only 75% :sad:
- Bass
Indigo
10-29-2004, 09:30 AM
I got my PI/w and dissolves well
with PPA,CS Rone and TE!
The mixture gives me 0.03ml per drop with my previosly mentioned pipette
bottles.
I did the same test with Perception, I simply sprayed it withr a hopper into it.
You get exactly
0.033 ml per drop ( 30 drops per ml )!
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