Application: dabbing, sprayong, rolling ?!?! [Archive]

Indigo

08-24-2004, 05:06 AM

Hello,

I'd like to start a small ( or bigger ) discussion about pheromone application

methods.
The "Pheromone Cook Book" says about spraying: " No way..." without any detailed explanation.
There

dabbing and rolling is recommended.

My personal opinion at the moment about that issue is:

Spraying:

+

comfortable use, very hygienic: no direct contact to the body, so the product in the bottle won't be polluted
-

Very unprecise, as differnet atomizers deliver quite different amounts of the product per spray.
You spray a

certain amount of the mones into the air instead of onto your body ( how much depends on the sprayhead you use.

Rolling:

+ comfortable use, no loss of the product
- unprecise, you don't really know how much product each

inch delivers. Rolling over your body the product within the bottle can be polluted.

Dabbing ( actual my

preferred method ):

+ very precise, if you fill your products into small glas bottles you can by in the

drugstore ( about 50 dabs per ml, I tested it with several bottles with an inner diameter of the opening of 8-12 mm

).
If you only fill a certain small amount into those bottles and only dab with them, very hygienic method.
All

pheromones get where you want them and nowhere ele.
- not as comfortable as the other methods.

Please tell me

your opinions about it and your experience!

Another point:

Is it advisable to applicate the mones into the

hair?

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

08-24-2004, 06:31 AM

Ingo: Thanks for that!

Couple

of things, though. I've had terrible luck with mones in the hair. Obviously you have had a different experience,

please elaborate on that.

Also, on the 50 dabs per ml. That would mean an NPA bottle would have 250 dabs.

That seems way more than I ever got out of it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these

things.

Indigo

08-24-2004, 06:54 AM

Couple of things,

though. I've had terrible luck with mones in the hair. Obviously you have had a different experience, please

elaborate on that.
Hello,

well, I don't have any specific experience applying the mones into the hair.

I was just a informative question and I wanted to ask about your opinions about that.

Also, on

the 50 dabs per ml. That would mean an NPA bottle would have 250 dabs. That seems way more than I ever got out of

it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these things.

In fact I tested with

water, but as far as I know the difference in viscosity of water and alcohol is not more than about 20%. Beyond that

I often fill an certain amount ( 1 or 2 ml ) into the application bottle.
And the results were very similar.
I

agree, perhaps I should do a more accurat test with alcohol.
But the main reason for the deviation is probably the

NPA bottle. I don't know how its aperture looks like, but I guess it's much different from an simple opening of an

glass bottle with a screw closure!
If you use them you will probably get similar results.
When I will get NPA or

TE in the future I'll definitely fill a part of them them into my bottles of brown glas for application. That is

IMHO the best for the mones in the original bottle and best for me regarding precesion!
But I am still open to

change my opinion!

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

08-24-2004, 08:08 AM

Can you link to a site with a picture

of the bottles you like???

How many mL and what does it look like?

Indigo

08-24-2004, 08:26 AM

Can you link to a site

with a picture of the bottles you like???

How many mL and what does it look like?Hello,

well, the

bottles I use look nearly the same like those of PPA. The difference
that they are 10ml bottles and the opening is

slightly bigger ( not in a relevant extent ).
For impermeability they have a plastic inlet dor dropping. For

dabbing I just take that out.
But I think you could leave it away anyway!
The bottles I use look similar to the

10ml version shown below.
In general you can use any brown glas bottle of any size with an opening of 8-14mm.
Just

the size that you can get a finger on well.

Best regards

Ingo

Indigo

08-25-2004, 12:04 AM

That seems way more

than I ever got out of it. Were you testing with water or something? Viscosity affects these things.
OK,OK

your viscosity argument didn't let me rest. So I made a new test with the alcohol based PPA and pure alcohol. I

found out that alcohol on fact does shows different characteristics than water. This obviously has also something to

do with the different surface tensions. Dabbing PPA respectively alcohol, there stays more liqid at your finger. So

I did the test again with quite exact 1ml ( measured with a pipette ) and I got about 33 dabs. So it may average

between 30 and 35 dabs per ml.

Now I am quite sure about that. If you use a similar bottel ( no matter if of

plastics or glas ) with a diameter of round about 10mm ( so that you get your forefinger on ) one dab has

approximately 0.03ml ( +/- 10%) ! Let it be +/- 20 percent! I think that would not do relevant differences.

The point is you know with adequate precision how much product you put on. And that is the most important thing

about it. Beyond that the result is reproductionable very well, compared to spraying. If you found out 3 dabs is

good for you, you just take three dabs the next day and have the same amount of pheromones again!

Regards

Ingo

bjf

08-25-2004, 06:52 AM

Thanks Indigo! That sounds more

accurate.
I agree dabbing is a great way to go. Anyone try dabbing Chikara??

Also, can Perception be

dabbed? Will contamination be an issue?

Indigo

08-25-2004, 07:19 AM

Thanks Indigo! That

sounds more accurate.
I agree dabbing is a great way to go. Anyone try dabbing Chikara??

Also, can Perception

be dabbed? Will contamination be an issue?Hello bjf,

first question:

How did you get around to call

me Indigo ( sounds good, no complaint, just for information ) ?????

Second my opinion about your second

question:

I don't now, if you can screw off the sprayhead of the Perception bottle. But you could easyly spray

it into another one.
Regarding the contamination, I think that will always be a problem. Even when I filled 2-3 ml

to my dabbing bottles during my tests, it took not too long to see that the water got dirty ( fat and bacteria from

your fingers ). Although I do not know, how much bacteria get from your finges into the bottlem I think they can't

be good for the pheromones!
So IMHO for going the save way it would be best to fill only the amount you need for

the next few weeks into your application bottle.

:thumbsup: The best application method over all is IMO a

bottle with an pipette cap like that of P10 for example. I tested that und I got about 240 drops out of 10ml of

alcohol. So one drop delivers approximately 0.04ml of the product.

With such an bottle you have

the best of all worlds:

1. Small amounts per drop ( almost like with dabs), so that you can spread the same

amount of pheromones to different parts of your body.

2. Relatively comfortabel ( drop on your finger and apply

like a dab ), you have to transfill only one time and that's it

3. No waste of any kind

4. Absolutely

hygienic, nothing gets into the bottle :thumbsup:

The problem I have with this method is that the pipettes of

the bottles I can buy here deliver much more liquid ( about 0.1 ml, almost as much as one spray delivers). So

dabbing will stay my prefered method as long a I cannot get appropriate pipette bottles. ( Where do the Stonelabs

get them ?????????? )

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

08-25-2004, 07:32 AM

Indigo

08-25-2004, 07:40 AM

Ingo,

Sorry man,

every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. I've been called "BTF" by quite a few many

times for some reason, so welcome to the club, I guess.

0.04 per drop compared to 0.03 for a dab? Wow that is

pretty good dropper. The only reason I asked about contamination was because Perception has no alcohol in it to kill

bacteria, so I was wondering if it was more vunerable. The other products seem to be able to handle the bacteria.

How much per drop do you think comes out of the AE dropper, btw?Hello bjf,

well, actually P10 has no

dropper ( they are always crap IMHO), but a pipette in the cap. That's why it releases such small drops.
Thus I

would never use dropper inlets like that of AE.

Regarding Perception: I totally forgot that it is water

based.
So in that special case I suggest to use the :rant: original sprayer ( should be ok ) :rasp: or

a
:thumbsup: pipette bottle :thumbsup:. When using a dabbing bottle go sure, not to store the content in it too

long!

Regards

Ingo

Indigo

08-25-2004, 11:37 PM

Ingo,

Sorry man,

every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. Hello bjf,

mmmmh, perhaps I should

change my username to Indigo!? It sounds not bad ( at least its a much more interesting name than just Ingo ).

Beyond that it't one of my favorite colours.
And you will never have a problem remembering my name again.
I'll

think about it. I am still raising points to buy an online coupon, so let's see what the next month bring in.

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

08-26-2004, 05:21 AM

Haha. It is a cool name...

Indigo

08-26-2004, 05:38 AM

Haha. It is a cool

name...
Well... I think I will do it. In the long run it will be worth the 2000 points! I just have to

raise funds.

Ingo ( Indigo )

Indigo

09-05-2004, 01:04 AM

Hello folks,

I found a picture

of bottles looking quite exact the same like thosse I use.
I did a final test with alcohol with these pipettes.

The result is that one drop delivers 0.025ml of liquid ( I got 120 drops out of exact

3ml alcohol ). I did the test twice and the difference were only 2 drops.
For oil or water basdes products

like Perception the values will be different.
I'll do the test for water later !!

:thumbsup: So if you can get

such a bottle you have a perfect way of application:
Transfill only once, no contamination and precise dosage !

:thumbsup:

Best regards

Ingo

Indigo

09-05-2004, 03:00 AM

Hello,

I did the test for water

too!
One drop delivers quite exactly 0.05ml of water
( 40 drops on 2 ml, tested twice )!

Best

regards

Ingo

bjf

09-05-2004, 05:22 AM

You got 0.03 for the alcohol dabs,

which would make dabs bigger than drops - with that dropper at least.

Indigo

09-05-2004, 06:22 AM

You got 0.03 for the

alcohol dabs, which would make dabs bigger than drops - with that dropper at least.
Hello,

yes, that

is exactly what I found out with that pipette ( on the picture )!

Regards

Ingo

bjf

09-09-2004, 06:24 AM

Ingo, is this the same as an AE

bottle?

Indigo

09-09-2004, 06:39 AM

Ingo, is this the same

as an AE bottle?
I never used AE. AE has got a 7.5 ml bottle. The ones I use have 10ml. But as I have used

pipettes of 50ml bottles and they were only longer than the smaller versions I guess the drop size of the AE version

should be similar! But I don't know for sure.

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

09-09-2004, 06:53 AM

Indigo

09-09-2004, 07:01 AM

I tried looking at the

drop thing in picture, the end looked somewhat similar. Bassman did a great job with the chikara measurements, so I

was just trying to figure out what a chikara spray equaled. Looks like it going to be about the same as an AE

drop.
Hello bjf,

Well... as I said: I think the atomizers probably never release the same amount per

spray, especially not the first sprays after the bottle has lain or been shaken. When I uesed sprayers I always had

to take 2-3 sprays before the atomizer released consistent amounts per spray.
I will get my Chikara at the weekend

hopefully and definitely refill
into my application bottles for dabbing or dropping with the pipette.
:thumbsup:

That way I will be certain to get the exact amount I wish to get!:thumbsup:

Best regards

Ingo

Indigo

09-11-2004, 05:23 AM

Ingo,

Sorry man,

every time I see that name I have to remind myself it is not Indigo. I've been called "BTF" by quite a few many

times for some reason, so welcome to the club, I guess.

Hello bjf,

now you'll never have

problems again remembering my name!

I am back as Indigo !!!!!!

Pingu Slap gave me the points for it

!

Best regards

Ingo

bjf

09-11-2004, 09:42 AM

Wow Indigo! Cool stuff. Just remember

to sign your name Indigo not Ingo as you did above :)

I'm looking forward to more of your experiments,

especially the NPA one!

Indigo

09-11-2004, 09:59 AM

Wow Indigo! Cool

stuff. Just remember to sign your name Indigo not Ingo as you did above :)

Mmmmh, perhaps you are right.

I will also sign with Indigo! I thought of Indigo just as a more original Nickname at first and staying at Ingo

signing
my posts.

I'm looking forward to more of your experiments, especially the NPA

one!
Unfortunately I didn't get my Chikara and NPA today, so I will do the tests not until next weekend (

I am not at home over the week ).
I think I'll just measure the opening size of the NPA bottle without inlet.
If

it is more or less equal to that of my bottles the dab size should be the same! We will see !

Best regards

Indigo :D

ismellgood

09-11-2004, 10:33 AM

bjf,

you wrote a while

ago that you did not get 250 dabs from an npa bottle.
what is your best estimate of how many dabs you did get per

(5 ml) bottle?

bjf

09-11-2004, 10:35 AM

smellgood, that was not me. I did a

dropper experiment, but nothing dabbing, or to do with NPA bottles.

Sorry.

ismellgood

09-11-2004, 10:39 AM

bjf,

I was referring

to your message above (it is message number 2)

bjf

09-11-2004, 10:42 AM

Oh, sorry for the confusion. I never

formally tested it. It just seemed like I would use up the bottles quicker than 80 applications of 3 dabs.

ismellgood

09-11-2004, 10:46 AM

bjf,

if you do not

mind my persisting,
what is your best guess of how many dabs you did get per npa bottle?

bjf

09-11-2004, 10:55 AM

Imsellgood. I think that when I used

to dab, I would turn the bottle upside down, then quickly turn it back over and quickly take my finger off the lid

and apply it to myself.

I've found that I was using too much - I got extreme reactions which were either

really fun or not so fun - and have cut back. I use one dab less, and also keep my finger over the top of the

bottle a little longer when I turn it right side up. This lets some of the excess drip off.

Therefore, I

think the amoutn of applications I used to get out of an NPA bottle is less than I would now. I am assuming Indigo

measured using the method #2 of dabbing. With my #1 method I probably got 30 or 40 applications at 3 dabs. That is

a huge discrepancy from the 250 dabs he got, even with the discrepency in technique.

It is really tough for

me to guess how much is in there. Best thing to do would be to measure it.

Indigo

09-17-2004, 09:16 AM

bjf,

if you

do not mind my persisting,
what is your best guess of how many dabs you did get per npa bottle?
Hello

ismellgood,

I just got my 10ml NPA bottle! It has exactly the same opening as my application
bottles. As I said

using the inlet you will never have consistent results per dab, even if I'd test it! I was easy to remove the

inlet!
So when dabbing without the inlet ( I tested that several times ) you get an average of 0.03ml per dab (

about 170 dabs out of one 5ml bottle )!
I hope that helps!

Best regards

Indigo

eric_pelletier_tw

09-20-2004, 09:08 AM

i have found that

sprayers bruce sell are quite consistent [except for the 2 first & few last sprays]70 sprays per btle look at

"application methods & quantities " tread for more details none the less spraing CAN be inconsitent due to

mentioned facts above. Also & more than anything the way you spray is what will afect the results most but for the

variance in the sprays its minor.

BDC_Concepts

09-20-2004, 09:27 AM

Right, there are atomizers

that can be quite consistant. You just measure the amount of sprays (removing priming/ending) and divide

accordingly. You can dilute most products out there by just adding ethanol, IPM, or PG if you really wanted to.

You'd just have to do figure out the math (volume, total contents, what you WANT, etc).

Matt

Indigo

09-21-2004, 12:11 AM

Right, there

are atomizers that can be quite consistant. You just measure the amount of sprays (removing priming/ending) and

divide accordingly. You can dilute most products out there by just adding ethanol, IPM, or PG if you really wanted

to. You'd just have to do figure out the math (volume, total contents, what you WANT, etc).

Matt

Hello,

what would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?

Regards

Indigo

BDC_Concepts

09-21-2004, 07:34 AM

Hello,

what would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?

Regards

Indigo

I'd probably

use Isopropyl myristate (IPM) to dilute it. I don't know exactly what their carrier is, but I wouldn't be

surprised if it was IPM. I'd probably test a small amount first just to make sure everything went well though.

Indigo

09-21-2004, 08:07 AM

I'd probably

use Isopropyl myristate (IPM) to dilute it. I don't know exactly what their carrier is, but I wouldn't be

surprised if it was IPM. I'd probably test a small amount first just to make sure everything went well

though.

Where can I get that?

CptKipling

09-21-2004, 12:22 PM

iirc the carrier is a mineral

oil of some sort.

DrSmellThis

09-21-2004, 12:35 PM

Hello,

what

would you take to dillute the oil based PI/w?

Regards

Indigo
The proper thing to dilute it with is

denatured palm oil, from a perfuming perspective.

Indigo

09-21-2004, 11:20 PM

Thanks for the answers!
Will

PI also solve in alcohol based products?

DrSmellThis

09-22-2004, 03:18 AM

...alcohol dissolves oil.

BassMan

09-22-2004, 04:23 AM

Thanks for the

answers!
Will PI also solve in alcohol based products?I haven't tested PI/w. PI/m will dissolve in Isoprop

but not in EtOH. I had originally written that there were two PI/m's, but I think I was wrong and was trying to

dissolve it in two different alcohols.

-Bass

Indigo

09-22-2004, 04:41 AM

I haven't tested

PI/w. PI/m will dissolve in Isoprop but not in EtOH. I had originally written that there were two PI/m's, but I

think I was wrong and was trying to dissolve it in two different alcohols.

-Bass

Mmmmh,

interesting. I often mix PPA ( Isopropyl basis I think ) with P10 and some Ehanol. It dissolves very well. What

would happen dissolving PI in Isoprop and than adding some Ehanol for dillution?

joseperez234

09-22-2004, 07:37 AM

so if one dab of alchool

say chikara is .025 ml , how many dabs would be a decent dose???

oscar

09-22-2004, 08:01 AM

Indigo,

I once added a couple of

drops of PI to a cologne sample tube but it didn't mix very well. When shaken it went cloudy and bubbly, and after

being left to settle it formed two distinct layers.

However, it does dissolve nicely in 190 Proof Everclear (95%

Alcohol) and will not fall out of solution.

Whenever I plan to mix with PI (/m or /w), I cut it with Everclear

first.

PI has reportedly used at least two carrier formulations over the years. I won't guarantee that the

method that works for one will necessarily work for the other. I think I have the mineral oil based

formula.
Experiment with small quantities.

Oscar :)