Holding hands and cuddling

[Snoopy]

Very blunt

and open question: When is the right time to hold someones hand or begin cuddling with them?

Sometimes I find

myself sitting right next to a girl on a couch, etc., and I don't know how to advance smoothly.

[DAdams91982]

Honestly... thats a good

question... I have the same problem somtimes... thank God usually they are the ones to initiate it though. Im to

damn shy.

Adams

[camusflage]

Very blunt and

open question: When is the right time to hold someones hand or begin cuddling with them?
In my

experience, it's always been a gradual process proceeding in set steps. In the hand one, you're walking along and

start getting closer to one another. Then arms brush together from time to time, then hands, and then the hands just

find each other.

As for couch cuddling.. Just look for the signs. If she gets up, does she sit closer,

further, or the same distance? How's she reacting to your touches (you better be at least touching her arm for

emphasis by this point)? Is her body language open or closed? All of these are the signs to tell you whether the

time is right or not.

[Snoopy]

Most of the time I can be so

close that our legs/arms are almost smashed into each other. I'm sure she is fully aware of this, but I have a

difficult time in actually moving into actual cuddling.

On the flip side, is there something I can do to make

HER move into cuddling me, isntead of me trying to make it happen?

[Snoopy]

Copulins

perhaps?
What do you mean?

[SweetBrenda]

Very blunt and

open question: When is the right time to hold someones hand or begin cuddling with them?.Definitely not on

the first date of course. I think the holding hands thing comes once you feel more comfortable with that person.

Perhaps if you are driving and she is next to you and you are sharing smiles or trying to have eye contact from time

to time slowly reach out to touch her leg and see her reaction wait a second and I bet she will get the hint! next

thing you know you're holding hands. It's all about the body language. I guess it all depends how good the

chemistry is between you and that person. When it's pretty strong things happend a lot faster. Personally thinking

back on some of the people I've dated.. I'll say within a week of hanging out together either I made the first

move or they did. I always love the beginning of a fresh new relationship everything seems great! aw!...is like

walking on clouds. ahhhhhhhh:wub:

[camusflage]

Most of the time

I can be so close that our legs/arms are almost smashed into each other. I'm sure she is fully aware of this, but I

have a difficult time in actually moving into actual cuddling.
On the flip side, is there something I can do to

make HER move into cuddling me, isntead of me trying to make it happen?
As for moving into the cuddling,

assuming your couch example, that's simple.. Once you're smashed against each other, put your arm on the back of

the couch. After a bit of it sitting there, go for the ever-suave arm over the shoulder move. You're already

halfway there with it sitting on the back of the couch anyway.

To get HER to make the move will be difficult,

but not impossible. When talking, ratchet up the time spent touching, whether it's a hand resting on her knee or

lightly stroking her forearm for a few seconds. Increase the physical contact, and if she wants more, she'll let

you know.

[Friendly1]

I doubt most guys can execute

the shoulder move without feeling (and therefore looking) clumsy. You have to feel confident and comfortable before

you can do that smoothly. If you are both young, an awkward shoulder move is probably forgiveable. At my age, you

look like a dork.

[BassMan]

I doubt most guys

can execute the shoulder move without feeling (and therefore looking) clumsy. You have to feel confident and

comfortable before you can do that smoothly. If you are both young, an awkward shoulder move is probably

forgiveable. At my age, you look like a dork.Wait until she says something cute/funny, then drop the arm

around her and give her a big smile and a playful little squeeze. Once you've done it the first time playfully,

it's much less awkward to do it again more sensually later.

Oh, yeah - this should be fairly obvious, but pay

attention to whether she pulls away or then continues to sit closer to you...

[Friendly1]

I had outlined something, but

then realized that what works for me probably wouldn't work for Snoopy. Using humor to get her relaxed is the

basis of how I would do it. I would find excuses to reach past her and to physically redirect her.

Hard for me

to type right now. People in the room distracting me.

[Snoopy]

I like funny a lot. She and I are

laughing partners :) I've been known to cause her stomach cramps from laughing so hard. We're always cracking

jokes with each other, she's one of the funnest girls I've ever met.

[phinmone]

if you're with her at a date

and walking around, you can just take her hand and say "no hands holding this early!" - make it funny and then pull

your hand away, as if she was doing it. this makes her smile in most cases, if she has humour! you get the physical

contact and make her smile - good sign! this must, ofcourse, be natural, but when you do it more often, it becomes

natural.

do not make it so serious to yourself, just relax and have fun at your date. if you start thinking

"is this the right thing bla bla bla", you just become insecure and she will notice it. do not fear rejection! just

do it, if she does not understand it or does not find it funny, she does not have any sense of humour -- then just

say to yourself "next!" and date other women!

[Snoopy]

This just keeps going faster than

I think it is.

First, I expect my order (SOE/TE free sample gel packs, SOE unscented, more Chikara) to arrive

sometime late next week. Bam, it arrives today. Then, I don't expect to see/talk to the girl until Friday. Bam, she

calls today and asks if I'm busy tonight (but we just went out last night). I told her I had plans though.



It's interesting because she's starting to call me more than once a day sometimes, and I've only been out with

her twice from that long break we took (long story made short: LJBF turned sour, took few months break). Both times

I was wearing Chikara, although I suspect I OD'ed it during the 2nd time I saw her. Both times we weren't 100%

alone, and both times I've been able to get comfortable close with her, physically.

She sounds different on the

phone too. I don't know if it's just because I haven't talked to her in a while, but a few months ago when we

were still in LJBF mode she sounded 'different' (I can't explain it).

[CptKipling]

On the flip side,

is there something I can do to make HER move into cuddling me, isntead of me trying to make it happen?


Don't try and make it happen.

At least, don't make it obvious that you want it to happen, perhaps tease her

with some touching; keep ramping it up and then stopping, etc.

[Friendly1]

Snoopy, if she is really into

you, the more you JOKINGLY pretend to push her away, the more she will probably try to get close to you. But you can

overdo that. Just have fun and try to learn from whatever mistakes you make. And be patient. Enjoy the moment for as

long as it lasts.

[Pancho1188]

if you're

with her at a date and walking around, you can just take her hand and say "no hands holding this early!" - make it

funny and then pull your hand away, as if she was doing it. this makes her smile in most cases, if she has humour!

you get the physical contact and make her smile - good sign! this must, ofcourse, be natural, but when you do it

more often, it becomes natural.

do not make it so serious to yourself, just relax and have fun at your date. if

you start thinking "is this the right thing bla bla bla", you just become insecure and she will notice it. do not

fear rejection! just do it, if she does not understand it or does not find it funny, she does not have any sense of

humour -- then just say to yourself "next!" and date other women!
I like the attitude here. Humor is

always good. However, the recommended speech in this could totally backfire. Now, I don't know anything about

your relationship with this girl, Snoopy, but I'm going to conjecture that "No hands holding this early!" would

raise so many questions about the status of the relationship, even when presented as a joke. This early in what?

Are we in a relationship? Are we serious? I thought we were just "having a good time" together... What is going

on here? Plus, does he think this is early? I thought we were at that level. What the hell is going on here? I

know I would be thinking questions such as this if someone did that to me saying such a thing. I do like the move

here, though, and the statement could work if, as phin said, the person thought it was funny.

As the king of

subtlety (I'm also the king of procrastination, but that's a different story), I have a few ideas which were

touched on earlier and relate to the above move. I have a problem with physical contact with people. I never do

it, so I'm just not used to it. This society almost lends itself to not touching other people. For example, you

could get fired for touching someone in the workplace if they take it wrong. Anyway, I have a problem with this, so

when I want to try to take it to another level, I pull out the ol' joke archives.

You want your arm around this

woman? You need to stop thinking about it as an unnatural move, which it is if you sit there for 20 minutes

thinking about how you want to do it and finally go for it. I used this approach last weekend, and it worked pretty

well.

(Side question to Friendly: What's the body language of a girl putting her hand flat on the couch between

you two? Is she asking for you to hold it? Just wondering...)

You're on the couch, right? You want your arm

around her or to touch her or hold her hand or something. Think about what you can do to accomplish this by

accident. The couch is a horrible means of talking to someone face-to-face when you're sitting next to each other.

So, if you want to talk in a more intimate (eye contact) manner, you have to turn to see her, right? Well, let's

say something really interesting is brought up. You turn to her. You have your arm just sitting there, right? In

fact, when you turn it's crushed against the cushion. Fix that. Turn to face her and put your arm over the couch

to show open body positioning to her while getting that arm around her. If your attentions turn back toward the

TV/whatever, just turn without moving your arm like you're still open to her. Actually, while I was doing this a

while ago, I accidentally touched the person's back. Now, I didn't mean for that to happen and it kind of freaked

me out because, like I said, I'm not comfortable at first with contact and this was also a very dangerous situation

I won't get into.

Other ideas: Think of a joke that requires you to touch her. For instance, pretend to be a

child or dead or scared or something and fall into her lap. That's major physical contact there. Make a joke that

you're married or something and put your arm around her and recite something like you were in couples therapy or

something:

(Get a concerned look on your face and have your arm around her with the other holding her on your

side)
"Well, doc, it was all going great until she found the body of my dead neighbor buried in the back yard.

She's been very suspicious of me lately."

There are a million variations you can make to this, just as long as

you make the touching relevant to the joke.

The best is when you pretend to be dead serious about something

really trivial. Grab her hand, look her directly in the eyes, and tell her, "I know this is a very difficult time

for you. Everybody has times where they have thoughts of [running around naked with a pitchfork and smoldering

iron]. It's very natural." I'm making these things up as I go along, so forgive the really bad examples for

incidents in which to say these things. You get the idea, though. Hell, you could even do the kiss and stroking

hand technique after that while looking genuinely concerned for her well-being even though the subject matter is so

trivial.

You could vary these moves for walking side-by-side as well. Pretending you're one of those

lovey-dovey married couples works. Put your arm around her and say, "What would you like to do, dear? How's my

little bunny-wunny-snookums doing?" Okay, that'd be laying it on thick, but you get the point. The best is when

you talk about being a pimp or something...then you go, "Yeeaaaaaaaaaaah (arm around her), I have a way with the

ladies..." and strut around or something.

If you're ambitious, you could take these little acting roles to the

extreme by kissing her or something, but I wouldn't be so bold. Also, since I don't know your current situation

with this person (you might've written it somewhere, but I don't know if you a. are talking about the same person

or a couple of girls and b. what status you are with any of them because you seem to be friends but you could just

be a pimp daddy or something), I can't be more specific on exactly what to add.

However, I admit to using a lot

of these moves, and they have given me much success. A few girls have liked it, and there was this one who got all

weird and that told me what was going on in that situation, so I'd consider it helpful despite not turning out like

I wanted.

[Snoopy]

:goodpost:

It's the same

girl I've been talking about in all my posts, Pancho. Cute girl, but horny deep down inside. She and I were in an

ex-LJBF relationship prior to 2 months ago, but now that I totally stopped seeing her, it's turned into something

quite different.

Although I've only seen her twice after that long break (using Chikara both times) her

attitude towards me has totally changed. There's something different about her voice (her tone is more serious, she

sounds less excited but more mature), the way she looks at me (the tension from LJBF seems to be non-existent), and

she's asking me out constantly (which I always hold out on, since I don't want to make myself too readily

available - I only agree to go out on my own terms and schedule).

I would really think a holding hands thing

would benefit our relationship if I could get it done in the next or 4th meeting, but that's just wishful thinking

and I know - "Let it happen, don't make it happen" ;) So I won't be upset if I don't get a good chance. She once

told me that timing was everything, so I'm going to make sure I follow through with that this time around.

I'm

also no girl expert. I've never had a girlfriend before, never kissed a girl before either, but I'm smart enough

to know when someone is showing signs of attraction towards me because its happened to me several times with

different girls (and once before, with this girl - but I screwed up and got too needy).

[Pancho1188]

I forgot to add that I got to

holding hands with a girl once by something very subtle. We were watching a movie, and we were sitting next to each

other on my futon. She set her left hand to the side of her flat on the seat, and I mimicked her move and slowly

kept making adjustments to my seated position as if I was occasionally getting more comfortable, but each time I

would move closer and closer. I set my hand down next to hers not touching. I'd wait to see if she'd pull away or

not. She didn't. I got very close, and I was about an inch from her hand. I then picked it up to scratch my face or

rub my eye or something---whatever I did---and then set it back down with a little less control than usual, letting

it fall and make contact with her. My hand was then touching hers, and I left it there to gauge a reaction. (I

can't remember if I accidentally touched her once and moved away before I did this, so you could add that if you

wish) She didn't move hers...so I slowly moved my fingers a little against her skin. I repeated that again later,

and I slightly covered more of her hand. She followed my lead and slid her hand more under mine. I stroked her hand

for a while, and after a little bit we were holding hands.

I spoke with her about this later, and she told me

that she wanted me to hold her hand. I guess it worked.

I hope that helps. Again, it's very subtle. You could

just do it if you want, but that was actually kind of fun and the result was worth every minute of anticipation.



I can't remember, but that sort of thing can lead to a changing of positions where she leans into you, and you

can do the arm around her thing as well. If you're at this stage, you're gold. I think you can take it from there

wherever you want to go.

Good luck!

[Friendly1]

Although I've

only seen her twice after that long break (using Chikara both times) her attitude towards me has totally changed.

There's something different about her voice (her tone is more serious, she sounds less excited but more mature),

the way she looks at me (the tension from LJBF seems to be non-existent), and she's asking me out constantly (which

I always hold out on, since I don't want to make myself too readily available - I only agree to go out on my own

terms and schedule).
Snoopy, Pancho's suggestions are too elaborate.

Touch is a powerful connector.

If you want to test her, just brush up against her once and then see if she pays you back. If she does, let your

confidence flow and put your arm around her. Don't keep it there. Just wrap your arm around her as you walk to

the car or something, look her in the eye, and say, "You look great" or "you smell great" (something honest but

simple).

If she likes that, she'll let you know.

Then let her go. Stop touching her.

Wait a while.

Let HER touch YOU.

She doesn't want you to be subtle or sneaky or shy. She wants you to be confident and

manly. If you have honestly moved out of LJBF territory into possible boyfriend territory, you need to show her

that you have what it takes and SHE needs to fish or cut bait.

Don't try to rush it, but be ready to do your

part. When I was twenty, I took a girl into my arms and just stared into her eyes. I had the strongest feeling she

wanted me to kiss her. She later told me she DID want me to kiss her.

If you get that feeling, go for it. You

can test a girl by leaning in. If she doesn't lean away from you, or turn away, or push you away, she WANTS you to

go a little further. She'll tell you, without saying so, where the boundaries are.

[Friendly1]

And for God's sake, Snoopy, if

you land this girl, don't go all wussy on her and turn into a total drip. She likes the you she is seeing now, not

some compliant, easy-to-manipulate little boy she was just friends with before. If you manage to be the man who

makes the cut, you have to stay that man.

[Pancho1188]

Snoopy,

Pancho's suggestions are too elaborate.
Not really, I just explain them like they are. I basically just

told him how to do what you just said. He wants to "just touch her and see what she does" but he's nervous. I

just gave him good examples of how to do so.

My explanations are long-winded and elaborate, but I guess I

could've summed it up like this:

1. Think of a good reason to touch her in normal conversation.
2. Touch

her.
3. See what happens.

I just gave a long explanation of point 1 because I know that the first response I'd

get if I wrote that would be, "But what's a good reason to touch her? What do I do? What do I say? How do I do

that? It's easier said than done." I was just showing how easily it could be done. I'm notorious for

over-explaining and over-analyzing. Sorry.

[belgareth]

Snoopy,

Am I reading this

right? She calls and asks you out? Frequently? She sits pressed up against you when she has room to move away? It

sounds like she wants your company and physical contact. Just put your arm around her and be done with it. Or if

that situation doesn't come up again, put your arm around her waist or hold her hand while walking or stnding. If

she is in contact with you its because she wants to be. Don't pass up the opportunity. The worst that's likely to

happen is she'll pull away. So, you'll be back where you started.

Right now, it sounds like she is leading and

you are too timid to even follow much less take the inititive.

[Snoopy]

I always touch her casually and

she never has a problem with that. Even when sitting close to her, I can shove myself right into her, but it's

taking it to the step after that, where we both consciously know that we are actually cuddling or holding hands -

that is the part I have never tried before, and have to build up some guts to do so.

The other night when we

were watching a movie, she was sitting cross legged on my couch to my right. I adjusted my position so that my left

leg was crossed underneath my right knee and I moved a little in, towards her. I let my left foot brush up against

hers, but then she quickly pulled away. This surprised me, but later I remembered that she was very ticklish, and

the bottom of the foot is a very sensitive spot for some people.

So far I've only been using Chikara, but it's

been very blatent that it's working. Should I stick with it, or do you think I should add in some unscented SOE or

TE? I just got some free sample gel packs of those.

Oh - and another thing. For her birthday this year I got her

a bracelet, which in Chinese superstition is supposed to bring better relationships. I've noticed she wears it on

the wrong hand, though. This would give me the opportunity to slide it off her and put it on her other hand. Maybe

after that I could just keep holding her hand and make her think it's working between us. She is very superstitious

and believes totally that fate works in ways we can't see.

[Snoopy]

Snoopy,

Am I

reading this right? She calls and asks you out? Frequently? She sits pressed up against you when she has room to

move away? It sounds like she wants your company and physical contact. Just put your arm around her and be done with

it. Or if that situation doesn't come up again, put your arm around her waist or hold her hand while walking or

stnding. If she is in contact with you its because she wants to be. Don't pass up the opportunity. The worst

that's likely to happen is she'll pull away. So, you'll be back where you started.

Right now, it sounds like

she is leading and you are too timid to even follow much less take the inititive.Yeah, I can be pretty dense

at times :LOL:

There's reason for this, though. She was the same way with me a few years ago when I first met

her. This ended up turning into a love triangle, though, between me, her, and my best friend. She couldn't decide

whether she liked me, or him, more, and she ended up choosing neither of us in the end. I lost my best friend (at

the time) because of this. Also, I later found out that she liked him more, but didn't start a relationship with

him because she didn't want to hurt me. Chapter 1 of LJBF begins...

I guess I am still worried about being

rejected and going back to LJBF land.

[Friendly1]

Confidence, Snoopy. That is

all you need to put into the mix. You're going to spend your life daydreaming about stuff you could be doing if

you don't just do it.

[Friendly1]

And quit worrying about

rejection. Your life won't be over if she rejects you. She's already done that once, and you're still

breathing.

Rejection happens to everyone. Get on with it.

[camusflage]

I have

a little secret I've kept tucked in my back pocket for MANY years now. As I've said several times on this forum,

psychology, more specifically personality, has always been a pet hobby of mine. It is one that has proven to be

tremendously useful for this bit as well.

Long ago, I picked up a few books on palm reading. While much of

what's in there is laughable, there is one important thing it allows. You can touch someone's hand in a VERY

intimate fashion without protest, as long as they agree up front. Combining cold-reading with a little knowledge of

what the various lines are, you can easily spend fifteen or twenty minutes slowly touching and stroking your

target's hands. This can be a wonderful segue into much more intimate contact, and lends itself well to "first

contact" type scenarios such as someone you've just met in a bar, club, or other public place.

I can't

believe I forgot to mention the other important thing it allows you to do. You can find out A LOT about what makes a

woman tick while you're doing this, as long as you're not fumbling your way through it. If you're of the NLP

persuasion, I can see fantastic opportunities availabile while reading the palm.

[belgareth]

Yeah, I can be

pretty dense at times :LOL:

There's reason for this, though. She was the same way with me a few years ago when

I first met her. This ended up turning into a love triangle, though, between me, her, and my best friend. She

couldn't decide whether she liked me, or him, more, and she ended up choosing neither of us in the end. I lost my

best friend (at the time) because of this. Also, I later found out that she liked him more, but didn't start a

relationship with him because she didn't want to hurt me. Chapter 1 of LJBF begins...

I guess I am still

worried about being rejected and going back to LJBF land.
Friendly is right about rejection, you're going

to get rejection a couple thousand more times in your life, get used to it. Right now you are sitting on a fence and

that is never comfortable. If you move one way you are in LJBF land, the other way could take you the same place or

could carry you into a relationship. Either way, all you have to lose is LJBF, nothing more.

As for your

previous experience with her, consider very carefully whether she is/was worth what you lost. If she wasn't/isn't,

cut your loses now and move on. Nobody in this world is worth playing games that end up costing you friendships or

pain needlessly, IMHO.

[Snoopy]

Advice will be taken to heart. A

few weeks ago I was reading about palm reading on fastseduction, I guess it wouldn't hurt to refresh my memory on

that stuff - she'd like it too, since she's a superstitious girl.

[a.k.a.]

Just put your arm

around her and be done with it....The worst that's likely to happen is she'll pull away.

When

I was a teenager (back in the day), it was pretty much accepted that a guy would at least try to “cop a feel”. More

often than not he’d get pushed away, but things seemed to work out OK in the long run. Guys would play the

aggressor, girls would play hesitant and — through a back and forth sort of game — the terms of the relationship

would get worked out.

On the one hand, it’s good that our culture has gotten more sensitive to personal

space issues. Sexual advances in the workplace — for example — (whether they’re welcome or not) are totally

disrespectful and have no place in a professional environment.
On the other hand, there should be no shame

in trying to snuggle up with a girl that consents to your company. If she doesn’t like it, she can simply say so and

there’s no harm done.

Sorry for getting preachy over this.