oxytocin and other hormones

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Oxytocin release and pherormones. Anybody got any REAL recent research documentation on the connection? I know Winnifred Cutler\'s 10-series additives may release lutenising hormone via the VNO in the nose, and my research is that the oxytocin spray probably does the same. A link maybe?

Also, I don\'t see David Berliner\'s (Realm: Erox) original paper from 1993 on the reference list. Has it been and gone?

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Yeah its something that has been ignored anyone wish to take up the oxitocin argument and tell us whether it works in pheros products or it doesnt. Has it ever been added to see if it does anything.

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Paul,

If I remember right, oxytocin is a hormone that creates the contractions when women go into labor. I\'m on shakey ground here cause I can\'t find my biology or physiology books (probably packed away somewhere). If I\'ve got the right hormone in mind, I don\'t see how it would help the phero mix. Anybody have a textbook handy to fill us in?

Kraven

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Apparently it also is realised after women have an orgasam, im thinking that it could be used in phero products to make women have orgasams now that would be the ultimate combo lol get em attracted and make em orgasam as well, it might also be used as an emotional connection similar to androgens anyone wish to take it up.

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Curious.

There are 72 articles on Medline looking at the link between oxytocin and sexuality in the last three years. Oxytocin is sprayed up the nose and every vet in the world can tell you that injections of oxytocin can bring feamle mammals into \'heat\' as well as help them connect with their just-born offspring.

Pheromones are also primary nasal stimulants that probably directly affect the olfactory bulb and thus, the olfactory cortex. Release of hormones from the hypothalamus, such as LHRH, and the Pituitary of LH and FSH are all dependent on both internal biology and external stimuli. A recent review: \"The neurobiology of sexual function. Meston,-C-M; Frohlich,-P-F. Arch-Gen-Psychiatry. 2000 Nov; 57(11): 1012-30.\", looks at the physiology of this whole process. BMJ article in October 1994, showed intense psychological and physiological sexual responses in a woman using oxytocin, including intenser and multiple orgasms. Still think the connection is there between pheromones and hormones, but which ones? Is it really oxytocin??

So, it seems we have a situation here. Lots of pherormone discussions about phenomenology and subjective, anecdotal evidence for these substances that we\'re paying oodles of money for, but no real scientific understanding of the background psychoneuroendocrinology apart from Cutler\'s paper in 1998, which showed \'acceptable\' methodology and analysis.

Not saying pheromones don\'t work. Not at all! On the contrary, I think they do - from my experience (n = 1), anyway. I would just like to know what\'s going on physiologically, and why companies making these things aren\'t prepared to show some solid \'human\' evidence as to why they\'re pricing these cheaply made chemicals way out of some of our reach.

Incidentally, oxytocin is involved in all five major female reproductive functions - bonding of couples, breast-feeding, birthing (cervical ripening and uterine contractions), bonding of mother and baby (babies also release oxytocin on suckling), and sexual activity. Levels of OXT rise during sexual activity and peak at orgasm in both men and women.

Danger: Neuropsychosocial biologist at work here.

All flames welcome. images/icons/cool.gif

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Fair enuf, Whitehall.

I agree, IVI oxytocin is definitely not to be messed with - water retention because of it\'s 4% vasopressic activity is serious, and puts a strain on the old cardiac pump and kidneys.

DO NOT inject it IV - done it, and it feels real bad - like a cross between a faint and a hot flush (I\'m told; never had the latter).

The Oxytocin spray does zip for guys apart - sexually, but its stress efects help in making them calmer - useful fact. Vasopressin (well, arginine-vasopressin anyway) is supposed to make you smarter, but research shows that it just makes male critters more aggressive, jealous and protective. The pheromones in critter urine may provoke this release, maybe? Territorial is the word.

One thing women said about Viagra when it came out was that many of them wished that someone would invent a drug that instead of making guys want to do it, made them to want to do it AND remember to call them in the morning after. They\'d BUY THAT!! Women, heh?

Oxytocin, though chemically related to vasopressin, is a different hormone by two peptides, and all their chemical analogues are rated for either oxytocic vs. vasopressic effect. The nasal spray is fairly non-intrusive for women, MUCH safer than a line of coke crystals going up your nose at 100 mph - ripping your nasal membranes to shereds - is about as yukky as a sinus spray for a cold, and has virtually zero side-effects, unlike the IV version which is PUMPED in at high doses over many hours for labour induction.

Subcutnaneous injection - like a bleb under the skin of insulin - with the oxytocin for horses used to be the method of choice for some local vet nurses for a surefire aphrodisiac effect until the vets starting locking the stuff away. Never relly been studied in a systematised way. Try getting any Ethics\' approval for that one! (But five nurses used to swear by it).

Incidentally, most pheromone suppliers used to recommend dabbing it on the double goorve thing under the nose (wossname) to induce the aphrodisiac effect - again, Winnifred Cutler, the main reference used for the \'scientific\' studies on this forum. Most perfumers recommend spraying their product low around the neckline or face (not the back of the ears) to allow the perfume to drift \'up\' from the alcohol volitity effect, or \'blossom\', in their phraseology.

If you are just indiscriminately allowing your pherormones to waft around in the air, then apparently you are just wasting all your money on the alcohol that they cut the stuff with.

Let\'s work out some target points. Under the nose, around the neck, on the wrist or fingers (if your touching), on the chest, or if you\'ve got acidic skin - dab it towards the front of your hair - (eg. sideburns, beard, moustache, even eyebrows, chesthair, underarm, ? pubes, etc). Maybe alotion is better than a pheromone dab on, as then you wouldn\'t get the alcohol irritation either.

Anyway ... just thoughts

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An interesting idea, we need some alternative discussion on the forum to try and get the phero makers to think about new things to add to the products (aka the secret ingredients in the edge)

[Whitehall]

I\'ve been looking at oxytocin as an aphrodisiac but have been deterred by a lack of product and a risk of side effects. Oxytocin has a history of adding complications to childbirthing (sometimes fatal) so is not something to be messed with. It is a complex neuropeptide so ain\'t cheap and none too stable. It is available as a synthetic called Pitocin (sp?)

A similar hormone is vasopressin. This is used by the smart drug set for increased memory retention. It can be had over the Net from the UK but is expensive. It is released by male orgasm and promotes mental clarity (\"Do I need to marry her?\") which is hard to really believe since I go into Nirvana post-orgasm although my mind does race sometimes. It also keeps you from pissing so don\'t try it too long or with too much beer or \"water retention\" will take on a whole new meaning.

In any case, delivery of oxytocin is currently by injection or direct nasal spray - as a neuropeptide it is non-volitile and so doesn\'t waft throught the air like perfume - you gotta jam it up your nose!

As an aside, oxytocin is released in the female from the stretching of the vagina as in childbirth, vigorous penile insertion, or FISTING. That\'s why fisting is the trendy thing in the San Francisco dyke set. But we can learn, can\'t we guys?

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Good point, Paul.

I\'m currently in contact with the makers of two types of pheromones, Dr. Winnifred Cutler herself - who incidentally has patented her 10:13 & 10:X products, and I once spoke with David Berliner (Erox: Realm), who was quite pleasant, but was not giving ANYTHING away - apart from a vial each of the Realm sample. (Thanks David, if you\'re on here - they actually worked - though the male one was a bit citrusy for me. Picky, I know!)

I have contacted two local perfumery experts who are looking into this as well, and know too, that I can combine the oxytocin with some other chemicals to make it more acceptable to spray up the snozz.

Incidentally, it only costs about $6 from an International pharmacy in Switzerland, UK or germany (look them up on the web), but alas, they only work for women. But, boy do they work, especially if she is on the pill! I guess she has to do the sniffing by choice, which is probably a good thing, as that way she has control - \'gynaeocentric\' aphrodisiacs mean that women get to choose when and where to use their \'prosexual\' substances. More palatable to me morally then \'mickey finn\' type date-rape drugs in drinks.

Pheromone splashes or wipes are anybodies business, so that\'s fine by me. Smell and looks can go well together.

I don\'t know about sub-cutaneous oxytocin on men either (like insulin inj.) but I do know that one manufacturer planned to put it in a lozenge/pastille-type thing that sat around like chewing gum nestled between your gum and cheek for instant absorption; have to ring her up and ask her how that\'s getting along.

That\'s all I can remember tonight, might check the Chem-Web again, but George Dodd is definitely the man in the \'knows\' (nose? geddit?). Most pheromones are in George Dodd\'s writings (consultant for Kiotech - makers of fish lures!), but often they are blends of between 20 - 50 chemicals, some overtly smelly - like BO - and some are odourless. (BO is often the result of bacteria eating the oils secreted by the body during sweating). Some pheromones are relatives of the DHEAS family (not straight DHEA, mind you; if DHEA makes old cells regenerate quicker, does that include tumor ceslls too?). I definitely am sure that if I have a shower than take a certain cold asthma remedy, my body smells like \'pure sex\', or so I\'m told. images/icons/wink.gif

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Hey thats great mycroft so what does doctor cutler have to say about this board, has she seen it does it give them an ideas on new products and what the customers want to see on the packaging on the products they make as far as whats in it and the concentrations of the main ingredients.

This kit thing is going to take off, hey maybe they could chuck these new chemical compounds into some kits oxytocin and none and nol and rone as well as androsterinenone and couplins as well. I always thought there was a link with the DHEA side of things as well, all very interesting and deserving of extra research. Thanks mycroft for the research. images/icons/smile.gif

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Thanks for the raps, Donaldduck,

I have this weird worry about DHEA; call it 10 years of endocrine research if you like, but making cells multiply really quickly is supposed to be a good thing??

I think that this board is too new for Winnifred to have seen yet. I think she\'s kinda busy making money hand-over-fist with her 10-series, plus all her other research and teaching projects. As someone said on another thread today, there\'s like only 3 out of 400 women who are regular loggers-on to this board, and mostly guys who want to know which goes with what, and what phero-combo works best with the least funky, BO smell and which are the best value (not necessarily the cheapest either), etc.

Ingredients are sort of hard to list on a little pack or bottle as even the simplest have some 20 - 30 components and names like 3,4-tetra, funko ,9-azole-[7,9-bananasmoothie]-4,6-benzo-rattrap, which means zip to most non-\'bucket-chemistry\'-types (non-organic chemists), as most of these things are tricky to make. Oh yes, the method is out there in the US patent office, which is easily searchable - for a fee, but are ipso facto method PATENTED. This basically means you can make the stuff, but the patent is designed to protect the formulator\'s method of doing it.

Putting the ingredients on the outside is not as simple as listing preservatives or protein %\'s on the outside of a can of beans, so you can compare and SAVE!!! Most of the perfume houses that I know have recipes for the 20 - 40 \'base\', \'middle (heart)\', and \'top\' notes in the fragrance pyramid of their exotic perfumes, even Chanel No. 5, which other perfumers try and \'sniff\', and then emulate in smaller labs. What concentration of what isomer of what chemical is put together with which others to get the exact formulation right and excellent, and that doesn\'t smell like a wild boar on the one hand and a chemical waste dump on the other.

Incidentally, my original question still stands - does anyone know of other behavioural researchers who actually do the \'taste test\' with double-blinded subjects, and then write this stuff up in journals - or is all this collective wisdom from this forum going to disappear into the ether one day??

I know that, for instance, there is the Cannes (France) yearly \'smell-a-thon\' going on at this very moment, where the top sniffers are checking out the latest releases. You can bet that each perfume house is out there writing stuff down.

Just a few thoughts ... images/icons/laugh.gif

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mycroft,

Give Phil Stone over at Stone Labs a try - his company was doing research on the effects of some steroid-based pheromones a while back, and it was to be published at some point - not sure if it\'s out yet. I had a very informative conversation with him in July of this year when I first learned about pheromones, and he was very helpful and interesting to talk with - and for the first time, NOT one who had \"secrets\" to hide - he answered every question I asked him! I\'m no expert in the field of legitimate psychological investigation, but he mentioned some buzz words that sounded like something you might be looking for as far as \"legitimate\" work goes...\"double-blind\" studies and \"random samples\", etc. What he was working on, and what most of us here are interested in (speaking for \"us\" so far as I can acertain in three days), are steroid-backed andro compounds that target the Vomeronasal Organ (VNO) - not the olfactory receptors - in the nose.

Berliner used different compounds in his preparations, and Cutler\'s products have been denounced more times than I can count - EVERY lab that\'s ever analyzed those \"10\" products has proven that they contain ZERO steroid pheromones. Her \"patent\" (of which parts appear to still be pending) is for the use of various compounds as attractants, but there\'s no proof that they work. I\'m a chemist by trade, and her work is something of a joke in \"real\" research circles.

Also, regarding the placement of the topical solutions, we\'re not trying to utilize the properties ourselves, we\'re trying to get OTHERS to \"pick up the scent\" and have their VNO\'s stimulated, hoping that they will become attracted to us. Thus the placement on the body, and NOT under the nose. Huffing of the andros (especially androstenone) gives me a headache! Random dispersion is exactly what we want.

Also just thoughts..... ;-)

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Interesting stuff, Carl2,

Haven\'t heard of Phil Stone, as I have been out of the pheromone \'market-place\' for a while, just night-shift web-browsing when I can and chatting to our local olfactory & pherormone research experts, who never \'go shopping\' - apart from Uni grants - these days, it seems. So thanks for that! I\'ll see if there is anything about his work on the Chem- or Med- databases.

I still have arguments these days with the neuropathologists and neuropsychologists who argue that there is no such thing as the VMO anyway; that it is a \'throw-away\' term used to describe a complex of neurofibrils and endings rather than a specific \"organ\" with a particular \"function\" (i.e. like the spleen).

Question also is whether all pheromones are steroid-based, andro-compounds? Are there other types that are not steroid-based, as some would suggest, when defending Cutler\'s work.

I don\'t understand all the subtlies of the chemistry, but I do know that her 1998 paper certainly altered the way that sexual functioning research was done in both psychological and pharmacological circles. Some researchers have pooh-poohed her methodology, but the stats are still impressive, even if the compounds are laughed off as having no steroid content. It was a double-blind, controlled, human behaviour study, not rats or mice, or just a bunch of anecdotes or case histories like some other research fluff on pheromones. I\'m not saying that there may not be some excellent suggestions in the ideas from those case histories, etc, but research methodology has to use reliable and valid measures, so that results are reproducible.

Same as in chemistry. Heat x mg. of A + y mcg. of B at Z\'F for 62 sec., distill with 0.01 % denatured rhubarb solution and you get a certain of C every time!

My impression of the impact of her work was that it made certain researchers rethink their \'tools of the trade\' and invent new scales for assessing sexual functioning - particularly women\'s. I understand that her original 10:13 formula was designed to be odourless and mix in with \'your favourite cologne\', but also specific for women in that THEY dab in under their nose in that wossname groove-thingy to set off a cascade of \"whatever\" hormones leading to LH release. That\'s how the original argument went anyway, if I recall; hence it was a women\'s product first.

David Berliner was/is a dermato-histologist, who questioned, among other things, why 88% of the ingredients of many \'perfumes\' were based - real or synthetically - primarily on the secretions from the anal glands of the male musk rat. Still a valid point when you consider almost all the male perfumes have an oakwood-moss-chypre-sandalwood-cedar-lavender mixed smell to them (fougre, pronounced, I think, \'fu-jair\'). Maybe women don\'t go for the \'wild boar\' smell all the time - which is why I wonder if the \'odourless\', non-steroid /andro-based pheromones have a place in all this.

Geez, if I turned up smelling like a \'boar\' to a meeting at work, I\'d get told to go home and have a shower, rather than be allowed to make a presentation! What guys like is probably different to what women want; hence, my questions still stands: Where is the rigourous behavioural research behind the big pheromone companies\' products showing conclusively that at least a few percent more women like these smells rather than rainwater? I just want them, or someone (!), to show me that before I fork out another $50 or so on a bucket of strained sweat that I could have made myself by running for a bus.

Guys like the smell of hot diesel on a summer\'s night and fishing wharves at sunrise too, but I don\'t see them splashing their bodies in the odours from these to attract women. Women like \'witchazel\' smells in talc on babies, but it doesn\'t do much for most guys in a club at 1 am. unless they look good, in which case they can smell like a slaughterhouse at 5 pm. for all I care.

Anyway ... enough b***s****ing ... got to finish my bibliography for this paper, or there is no tomorrow!!

Cheers images/icons/cool.gif

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Bruce has a working relationship with phil stone, brings up different info that he gathers from him at various times.

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Thanks for the tip,

Any particular thread I should follow?

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