Soy: Its Horrible

[druid]

Stay away from

SOY

http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-6-0/soy-story.shtml

[SweetBrenda]

Oh Goodness! I read the whole

thing! this was a surprise since all we hear is about how good Soy is for you. hmmm
Thanks for the link...

[Holmes]

Stay away from

SOY

http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-6-0/soy-story.shtml

Agreed. Bad

stuff.

[Sesshoumaru]

Guys shouldn't be eating

soy anyways since it promotes estrogen..

[Holmes]

So you isn't opposed

to it?

[Sesshoumaru]

Should was a typo...

[Holmes]

Aiiight. Big up!

[Gegogi]

Tofu is big in Hawaii due to the

large Asia population. A recent study of older Asian men that ate large amounts of tufu daily demonstarted a marked

trend towards decreased memory and cognitive abilities compared to the control group. So soy may make you stupid and

forgetful...

[druid]

I have always stayed away from SOY

since I learned it is a estrogen-like substance (i read it some where in a bodybuilding magazine).

I don't

think women or men should be taking it. Men should not eat it because it promotes estrogen and women should not eat

it for the same reason. Estrogen is a major factor in breast cancer -- and estrogen could trigger a growing girls

puberty too soon and/or prolong it.

Oh and BTW I am a big atkins fan. For those who are doing that diet

watch out for all those supplements (just about ALL the bars -- not just atkins brand -- and other protein

supplements contain soy). And the first ingredenent in mayo is Soybean oil, so stay away from that too.

[bjf]

I thought miso soup (a cup a day)

diminished breast cancer?????

[DrSmellThis]

I'm not giving up soy ice

cream.

[Gegogi]

Or soy sauce (Soyu)!

[burgerama1960]

For all you guys spending

time trying to find the miracle penis lengthener this stuff is the magical penis shrinker!

[perfidia]

Thanks, that was a highly

informative article-- I'd heard certain things before, what impressed me was learning how little soy Asians

actually consume. The "hidden" soy part seems misleading to me, that's probably mostly soybean oil-- I'm thinking

of the tuna example here. I guess that point just assumes that most people don't labels, which is true. The only

soy products I consciously consume are plain organic soymilk, the kind that is just soybeans and water, and Bragg's

Liquid Aminos, and I don't use them everyday, so if I read my labels and nothing is really hidden, I guess I'm

safe as long as I stay home :)

It's interesting to think that a lot of people probably turned to soy to

avoid the growth hormones used on cattle which were supposedly responsible for grossly retarding male and

accelerating female physical development-- you can run, but you can't hide...

One thing I don't like about

these articles is, they're so alarmist about the evil of a product, when the problem is more its immoderate and

un-/mis-/disinformed use.

[a.k.a.]

I'm a vegetarian, but I'll stick

to beans and rice.
I first heard about this stuff in Vandana Shiva's "Stolen Harvest: the Hijaking of the Global

Food Supply". It seems the Soy Growers Council has done a lot of PR to promote a product that is basically animal

feed.
Read this book if you want to see the dark side of your

food:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0896086070/002-6386236-9254434?v=glance

[Mr.Evil]

Some light reading on soy
he

quote bellow is

from
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459516



"Dr. Daniel: Soybeans are beans that grow in fuzzy green pods. They come in many colors but most are a yellowish

tan color and marked with a single, distinctive black eye— nature’s way perhaps of giving us a warning!



Traditionally, Asian soybean plants were not grown to be eaten but to be used as "green manure" — as a

cover crop designed to be plowed under to enrich the soil between plantings of the crops used for food. It was a

fertilizer. It wasn’t until the Chiang Dynasty that the Chinese came up with the fermentation methods needed to tame

the soybean’s undesirable elements and make it into a food.
The soybean paste known as miso came first, followed

by soy sauce, which was discovered as part of the miso-making process. Other soy foods such as tofu, tempeh, and

natto came much later, around 1000 AD.

In the West, the soybean has mostly been used for its soy oil, which is

what you get in most products labeled vegetable oil, margarine, or shortening. Soy here is a product of the

industrial revolution — an opportunity for technologists to develop cheap meat substitutes, to find clever ways to

hide soy in familiar food products, to formulate soy-based pharmaceuticals and to develop a plant-based renewable

resource that could replace petroleum-based plastics and fuels. This last could be good for the planet.
T-Nation:

So how did soy become known as such a "health" food?

Dr. Daniel: For years, the soy protein left over from soy

oil extraction went exclusively to animals, poultry, and more recently fish farms. The problem is that only so much

soy can be used in the feeds before the animals start developing serious reproductive and other health problems. So

the soy industry still had a lot left over and decided to start marketing it as a "people feed."

"

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?artic

le=body_87prote (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_87prote)



http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461709

Mr.

Evil:twisted:

[SweetBrenda]

I'm a

vegetarian, but I'll stick to beans and rice.
I first heard about this stuff in Vandana Shiva's "Stolen

Harvest: the Hijaking of the Global Food Supply". It seems the Soy Growers Council has done a lot of PR to promote

a product that is basically animal feed.
Read this book if you want to see the dark side of your

food:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0896086070/002-6386236-9254434?v=glance


nHow long have you been a vegetarian? I have thought of becoming vegetarian since I don't care much for red

meat.But I don't mind a good stake from time to time.. But I guess the thought of not having certain things makes

things a little harder.. Plus I also know to make such drastic change to you life you need to be very careful.

[a.k.a.]

Five years. It was right after my

divorce and I wasn't very hungry anyway. It was for ethical reasons, to help me feel good about myself. (I took up

aikido at the same time.) There's lots of tasty vegetarian food. Especially in the Italian and Indian cuisines. If

you're not a body builder you don't need that much protein. Most Americans eat way too much and it just turns to

fat. It's a relatively easy way to do something nice for the planet. The only thing I miss is sushi bars.

[Sesshoumaru]

Eat way too much what?

[a.k.a.]

Eat way too much

what?
protein — among other things

[CameraGuy]

I can't believe how many

doctors we have here. I happen to like soy. I make soy shakes when I get home from the gym. They taste great. If

anyone wants the recipe just send me a message. I am in very good shape so I know that this soy is bad for you stuff

is garbage.

[Holmes]

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/men/package.jsp?name=fte/foodaggressive/foodaggressive

[DAdams91982]

I can't

believe how many doctors we have here. I happen to like soy. I make soy shakes when I get home from the gym. They

taste great. If anyone wants the recipe just send me a message. I am in very good shape so I know that this soy is

bad for you stuff is garbage.
Just because your in good shape doesnt default the credibility of this

research.

Estrogen is the enemy in male fitness community... The less you have, the harder you look. So try

taking away the soy, and make a great Whey/Casien Blend with some extra Dextros, and I bet you feel alot better, and

look alot harder after a short time.

Adams

[InternationalPlayboy]

Wow, Interesting

stuff. I was on a soy kick about a year or so ago, after following a link at a popular weight loss site. I was

drinking daily shakes and eating soy bars and chips. I quit after a couple of months because of the expense, which

was all going on my credit card.

Flashing back a couple of decades, I worked as a "patty boy" (I ran a

hamburger patty machine) in a local slaughter house in the early 1980s. All our hamburgers were 100% meat with one

exception (well maybe two exceptions, the grinder would get in fights with the butchers for grabbing bottom rounds

to grind when he was tired of being given just suet to make hamburger from). When I was to make pattys for the local

schools, the grinder would mix soy meal in the meat. IIRC, it was a blue colored product, so it must have been

artifically dyed on top of everything else.

Flash back a few years before that and I can remember eating

these soy infused burgers at school. Pretty flavorless.

I was thinking of getting back into soy but after

scanning the articles linked here, I think I'll pass instead.

[einstein]

I was disappointed to read that.

Cheerios has coupons on the back for free quarts of Soy milk. Hate to waste coupons.

[deepblue]

I was actually considering a

soy based protein supplement to help build muscle too. :LOL: So much for that thought.

[belgareth]

Check out

www.allthewhey.com (http://www.allthewhey.com)

[SweetBrenda]

Good link Bel.

[belgareth]

Good link

Bel.
They are good people to buy from. Good product and honest dealings.

[deepblue]

I've used whey protein before

but it didn't mix too well, but just yesterday I purchased a pre-mixed whey (small one, just to try it) called

Isopure. The stuff looks like Kool aid and has no carbs, no sugar, or even traditional sugar substitutes (at least

the version I took at GNC). Great stuff :thumbsup:

[Prometheus]

I have not posted on this forum in over a year, but after browsing through

this soy thread, I was shocked to see the prepetuation of misinterpretation of the science concerning the the

estrogenic effects of soy.

Yes, soy does contain estrogenic componds which mainly manifest themselves mainly

in unprocessed soy products as isoflavones. When using the term "estrogenic" it is ment that these isoflavinod

compounds (a.k.a. phytoestrogens) have the ability to bind to the estrogen receptor. In humans, there are two

estrogen receptors, ER-alpha and ER-beta. Soy phytoestrogens, mainly Genistein, bind weakly to both estrogen

receptors.

Here is where this forum has taken the effects of soy estrogenic compounds out of context-
Soy

estrogens actuallty have an anti-estrogenic effect. How so? Though they bind the estrogen receptor weakly with about

100 to 1000 fold less affinity that natrual estrogen (beta-estradiol). In the presence of exess phytoestrogens, the

phytoestrogens can outcompete natural estrogen for the binding of the estrogen receptor, thus lower the activation

of the estrogen receptor and the effects of estrogen. Many anti-cancer drugs, (e.g. tamoxafin) use the same

principle to slow breast cancer tumor growh. Thus, one who consumes much soy will have reduced physiological

estrogenic effects relative to those who do not.

[Prometheus]

Food for thought-

Undoubtably soy products have greatly increased in popularity over the past

ten years. Silk soymilk, Boca burgers, litelife soydogs, tofu, and morningstar nuggets are common place in the

grocery store.

I have not seen any research on this, but here is some speculation.

The increase in

the demand for soy products amoung consumers has the livestock industry worried. Each dollar spent on soy products

is a dollar less market share for the livestock industry.

Consider this......

Animal protein in any

diet comes from the body of a male or female amimal, be it a chicken, a cow, a fish or a pig. If the flesh you just

consumed came from a female animal, that female animal must have had a high level of natural estrogen to maintain

its physiology. Has previosly discussed on this forum, steriod compounds (phermones, estrogens) are stable at high

temperatures and would liklely be impervious to cooking.

One who consumes animal protein on a daily basis

consumes animal estrogens (as hwell as h handful of other natural and synthetic hormones) on a daily basis.



Do animal estrogens activate the human estrogen receptor?

Yes.

The most popular form of

estrogen replacement therapy in post-menopausal women in the is a drug called Premarin.

Where is the name

Premarin derived from?
Pregnant Mare Urine. The urine of impregnated horses is used to purify two hormones

beta-estradiol and progesterone for the preparation of Premarin. Though Premarin is effective in the treatment of

hot flashes in post-menopauseal women, recent findings by thea Women's Health Initiative study have linked the use

of Progesterone and Estrogen to breast cancer in post-menopausal women. The prevelance was in fact so severe that

the whole clinical trial was shut down.

It would truly be interesting to see a study completed on the

dietary effects of aminal hormones, vs. a vegatarian diet. Whoever it is conducting the study however would have a

great burden though, especially if their findings stood in contrary to the favor of the multi-billion dollar

live-stock industry.

While on the topic of hormones in animals, it is also interesting to note that for

decades a compund known as diethystilbesterol (DES) a synthetic estrogen was used
in the livestock/poultry

industry for years before it was banned in the U.S. Side effects included miscarrages, birth defects, premature

puberty in adolescent females and breast growth in teenage males.

Comparing animal growth hormones to the

the shady human anabolic steriod indusry might be insightful. As an anabolic steriod is made illeagal for

distribution in the U.S., anabolic steroid manufacturers change the steriod molecule slightly to preserve the

function of the compond while changing the chemical definition of the compond from what is described as illeagal. I

would't doubt that the same thing is happening in the U.S. with synthetic hormones administered to animals.

[Prometheus]

Five years. It was right after my divorce and I wasn't very hungry anyway. It was for ethical

reasons, to help me feel good about myself. (I took up aikido at the same time.) There's lots of tasty vegetarian

food. Especially in the Italian and Indian cuisines. If you're not a body builder you don't need that much

protein. Most Americans eat way too much and it just turns to fat. It's a relatively easy way to do something nice

for the planet. The only thing I miss is sushi bars.

Actually, you can be a vegetarian body builder.

Bill Pearl, a long time vegetarian was Mr. Universe three years in a row on a meat free, anabolic steriod free diet.

Do a web search on Bill Pearl and see for yourself. What is fascenating about Bill's story is that at the age of

41, he won a Mr. Universe title which is aboulty incredible considering most of those who won the title were at

least ten years younger.

[a.k.a.]

Prometheus (cool handle, by the

way),
Interesting stuff about Bill Pearl. I checked out his nutrition guide, which is also interesting.

Especially when he compares the typical American diet (too much fat, too much cholesterol, too much salt) to the

ideal. The things he says about tap water and beef are downright scary.(Much scarier than the stuff we've been

discussing about soy.)

But back to the issue of soy... You seem to have a handle on the science behind this

debate. In addition to the issue of estrogens, Shiva’s book claims:

“Soybeans have trypsin ihibitors

that inhibit pancreatic processes, cause an increase in pancreatic size and weight, and can even lead to

cancer...The highest concentrations of trypsin inhibitors are found in soybean flour, which is a soy-based product

that is not consumed in traditional soybean-eating cultures, which specialize in the consumption of fermented

soybean products.”
“Soybeans also have lectins that interfere with the immune system and the microbial ecology

of the gut...Soybeans also contain phytic acid, which interferes in the absorption of essential minerals such as

calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, and iron.”

Any thoughts? Insights?

[Prometheus]

So a.k.a., you are a

vegatarian into akido? I'm a vegetarian into karate. You know I think it's just so cool how many matrial artists

are vegetarian and vise-versa. :) Is it a just coincidence or is there a reason for the

coorellation?
---------------------------------------------------
I have not read Shiva's book, but

those are some interesting points you bring up.

The pancreas, soy and trypsin inhibitors:

The

pancreas secreate many digesive enzymes (proteases) into the small intestine including trypsin and chymotrpsin.



Shiva claims the trypsin inhibitors found in Soy may inactivate a fraction of the pancreatically secreated

trypsin. Though I'm only speculating, the pancreas may sense this decrease in secreated trypsin functionallity

through a negative feed-back loop mechanism and upregulate the production of trypsin. Up-regulation of trypsin

production would require pancreatic growth, which may lead to pancretic cancer.

Though this may be true, one

must ask what is the prevelence of Soy induced pancreatic cancer? Unless Shiva gave a statistic, it may be

insignificant. The major cause of pancreatic cancer is viral infection.

Even if soy tryspin inhibitors

upregulate the the secretion of trypsin and increase the likleyhood of cancer as Shiva suggests, here's another

tidbit that Shiva may have left out:
The soy isoflavone genistein used as a chemotheraputic agent has been shown

to inhibit the growth of pancreatic cancer cells and cause panceratic cancer cell death.
Here's a link to the

reference:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15097869[/

url]

Additionally here is further information that Shiva may have failed to mention regarding Soy trypsin

inhibitors and cancer:

- A soybean Kunitz trypsin inhibitor suppresses ovarian cancer cell invasion
Link:


[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15168733



-A soy serine protease inhibitor improves sexual function (penile smooth muscle

contration)
Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list

_uids=12478602

Regarding phytic acid, it is true that phytic acids chelate minerals, though this has a

two-fold effect. The uptake of the listed minerals may be reduced. This of course is bad if you are suffering from a

deficiencey of these minerals. In most developed countries, the population does not suffer from these deficiences.


On the other side of the coin though, phytic acids are potent anti-oxidents by inhibiting the free-radical

formation of the minerals listed.

Regarding lectins I would need to know specifically how they interfere

with the immune system and the microbial ecology to comment.

Anyway, that's all the time I have for now,

gotta go....

[Prometheus]

An insightful response to the mothering.com article that started this thread-



http://www.foodrevolution.org/mothering.htm