5 other pheromones I found online

[surfs_up]

In

addition to the pheros that we usually discuss here, there are 5 others available from an organic chemical

manufacturer. They have alpha and beta androstadienOL (we're familiar with androstadienONE, sort of, as a newer

'mone) a beta-androsterone,the alpha has been around for a while, and a real oddball called androstTRIONE.



5 new 'mones are a daunting increase in the phero pallete. The combinations are mind boggling. Is there any

information on how these might work individually ?

[Mtnjim]

The combinations

are mind boggling. Is there any information on how these might work individually ?

Is there any

evidence that they have any bearing on the results we are seeking here?
Has anyone seen any research that

indicates what they "do"??

[surfs_up]

They were shown on a page with the known standard 'mones and nothing else. Their chemical structures are very

close to the classic 'mones though. They seemed to imply that they belonged to a common class of products.



What appear to be small differences to us when we look at the molecular illustration, such as "alpha" and

"beta" are only the position of one hydrogen on the third carbon atom in the ring.

For reasons well beyond

my knowledge, that position seems to be very significant for brain responses. Shulgin designed many "designer" drugs

that were variations on a similar position in the phenyethlyamine molecules. He might put a thiol group there or a

bromine atom, and he's get wildly different responses. I think on the p.e. molecules it worked out to be the #4

carbon, and on the steroids it happens on the #3 carbon, but the positioning is really similar...

There must

be some demand for these newer chemicals from the same market that buys the good old tried and true 'mones in

wholesale amounts. Why else would they make them ?

I sure would love to test some in isolation, perhaps in

groups of people, and see what the outcome is.

[CJ01]

That´s interesting su thanks.
Bruce

has had the beta nol in stock for a while and we´ve had some feedback on it already. The beta rone sounds sounds

cool, perhaps JVK knows about it and could fill us in on it??

Do you still have the adress of the place where

you found out about these phero types? If you don´t mind could you PM me please? :)

CJ

[DrSmellThis]

Great work!

It makes sense

to try them out. I wouldn't be suprised to hear they're in some product or another already if they're

commercially available like that.

I'd be extremely suprised if -dienol (which derives from pregnenolone

via enzymatic activity) wasn't useful, for example. It's the main precursor to -nol, and can even be converted to

A1 by cornybacteria.

Hey Surfs Up: I'd like that info too, (name of the company, or whatever), if you please.

:)

[surfs_up]

They have a great webpage that shows all the molecular structures, full name, common name where

available, in PDF format... go to "androstenone and related products" on their webpage. They sure look like the top

of the production chain to me. I doubt they would even talk to you unless you had some strong industry credentials,

an good track record in the fragrance/perfumery business, bank references, and maybe even some DEA clearance....

could you imagine ordering 100 grams of pure androstenol. How much would that cost ? Maybe we could be all eager and

respectful and get some extra toys for our chemistry sets ?

Androstrione looks a heck of a lot like

androstenone (except it has these two extra weird oxygen atoms double bonded on the back of it. Somewhere between

androstenone and androsterone with an extra oxygen piggyback. Wonder where that takes you ?

[DrSmellThis]

I found them on the web too,

but the page I had found didn't have most of those listed.

[real_wiseman]

So what's the URL then?

[surfs_up]

try:

http://www.molcan.com/and-rc.pdf

Make sure your Adobe reader is good to

go. Best to print it out and do side by side comparisons.

Is anyone doing rare, strange, or atypical

pheromones ? Fluoro-androstenone. Interesting, when Shulgin halogenated, the drug became more potent as the halogen

got bigger. Iodo or bromo phenylethylamine would put you in orbit, chloro would make you kind of spacey, and fluoro

would have no effect. Like it has to wedge into a receptor site just so to trigger a specific response.

[Star-A]

The only thing I haven't

understood is,how do you know these would really have an effect?? Please don't get me wrong... I'm just curious.

:) ;)

[surfs_up]

Science is messy business ! If I have five dollars for every know it all who has told me "on good

authority" that pheromones are a hoax and don't work I would be a richer guy and i would have had much less sex.

The sex I would have had would have been a lot less interesting, too.

One a disgustingly technical note, one

summary reported that:

"Our results showed that P450c17 possesses a 16-ene-synthase activity able to

transform pregnenolone into 5,16-androstadien-3-ol, without the formation of the precursor 17-hydroxypregnenolone..,

is also able to catalyze the formation of a third class of active steroids, 16-ene steroids (including androstenol).

....Our results therefore demonstrate that human P450c17, as other enzymes of the classical steroidogenic pathway,

is involved in the biosynthetic pathway leading to the formation of androstenol. "

Turned back into English

that means that AndrostadienOL (presumably the alpha and beta varieties, although which does what to whom ?) sits

between the starting point (pregnenolone, an odorless prohormone) and one of the endpoints (androstenol)... I'm

only speculating, but I would believe that it is more probable that a middle step would be active (because it is

part of the machinery) than something that goes past an endpoint (that the body hasn't evolved to respond

to)....

I honestly don't know if these will work alone, or if they work in concert with the better known

'mones, what they smell like, and so on. I am making an inference from their structure that they are likely to do

something (hopefully FUN!)

[CJ01]

The only thing I haven't

understood is,how do you know these would really have an effect?? Please don't get me wrong... I'm just curious.

:) ;)
how did people know that the ones we´re using now have an effect? :) People tried and tested them

and now we know :)
I guess the best way to find out is to try them.

[Red Stripe]

This is all pretty

interesting. What strikes me is how small the differences are between all of these chemicals. The ones that we are

not using now, being just a tad different from those we _are_ using , could unlock a whole other level of effects.

Look at A1 for example - a completely different effect from any of the 'big 3'. Cool to say the least.

http://66.45.239.227/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

Also makes me wonder about that Secret

ingredient in LaCroy's stuff ;) They are keeping it under wraps pretty well, but it would be nice to isolate it

without the -none to see it's impact on other mixes.

[Mtnjim]

The only thing I

haven't understood is,how do you know these would really have an effect?? Please don't get me wrong... I'm just

curious. :) ;)

I'm sure that they all have an effect! The question is, is the effect to get a

woman's pantys wet, OR is it as an attractent in a bug trap.
:eek:

[cuddlebear]

Mones, mones, what have we gotten ourselves into? :)

Wondering if any of these are in Chikara

...

[Rover The Dog]

Yeah same here. Lately, I

have been really interested in the four new mones in Chikara and what their effects are but I suppose we will just

have to wait until its contents are released...

[einstein]

I've sometimes thought about

"borrowing" the GC/MS at school to analyze some of the secret ingredients. I could at least determine the weight of

them, although no clues to structure. I just don't think I could get to it without my advisor asking questions.

I'm not sure my schools machines would work too well either, all we've got is capilary columns. I don't think

those are ideal for molecules as heavy as steroids.

Also, I looked at what androgens aldrich-sigma had for sale.

They've got tons. About 8 different androstenols, alpha and beta versions with several different positions for

the -OH. I would guess that only Pherin pharmacueticals has the slightest idea what all of those could do.

Steraloids is another company with thousands of steroids that could possibly be used as pheromones. Just looking at

them overwhelms me.
I think I'm just gonna let the big companies and Bruce find the useful mones. I've got

enough things to do without testing completely new pheromones. Although I do have one idea......

[belgareth]

Yeah same

here. Lately, I have been really interested in the four new mones in Chikara and what their effects are but I

suppose we will just have to wait until its contents are released...
Don't count on Bruce releasing the

list of mones in Chikara real soon. The product is a winner from the results I've seen. Why would he want to give

his formula to his competitors? Especially after the amount of time and effort he has put into bringing Chikara to

market.

[Rover The Dog]

I agree with you

completely. There is no reason for Bruce to bring out the ingredients of his Chikara especially since its success.

Anyway it was just an idle hope to ease my curiousity

[belgareth]

I agree

with you completely. There is no reason for Bruce to bring out the ingredients of his Chikara especially since its

success. Anyway it was just an idle hope to ease my curiousity
I'd like to know what's in it too.

:sad:

[surfs_up]

Only speculation here. There are

probably a smaller number of major pheromones, the heavy hitters that establish the "tone"; social, sexual,

territorial. There may be also a larger number of accessory pheromones that don't do a whole lot in isolation or

their effect is subtle. Think of great wines compared with table wines. The great wines have the same basics as the

ordinary wines and they have nuances that table wines don't have. It's more than having or lacking a raw

ingredient. The ratios are all important. Could be with more sophisticated phero products you will begin to see more

refined responses too. There will always be a market for the sledgehammer 'mones as there will always be a market

for malt liquor. It get the job done. A market exists for Haut Brion too, even at $300 a bottle because it takes you

places that lesser wines don't.

I came across an essential oil product that is refined from Cannabis with

the THC removed. It is a legal perfumery ingredient that has a "monster bud" aroma. I mixed up a batch of massage

oil with a nice shot of basic pheromones (androstenone, alpha-androstenol, androsterone about 1:1:1, this is

excellent once you're done with chemistry and ready to get down to physics) and one drop of the Cannabis fragrance

in about 4 ounces of lubricant. I think I put a drop of black pepper oil in too for extra energy.

The lovely

young thing who was receiving the massage let out a long sigh and said Oh My God what is that !? I think she had

formed deep associations between the smell of Cannabis
and intense pleasure somewhere in her life. Soon she was a

molten mass of hour long orgasm. Did the odoriferous terpenes in the cannabis fragrance directly trigger something

in connection with the 'mones ? (interesting thought) or did she have a strong memory association and a Pavlovian

response ? Either way it was memorable, to say the least. Now my massage kit is prepared.

[surfs_up]

in case you

were wondering what gives Pot its unique signature

aroma:

http://www.kalyx.com/catalog/eocannabis.htm

Is it possible that any of these have an

accessory effect with human pheros ?

[PheroQuirk]

So I have too

much time on my hands, and sitting in front of me right now are three bottles - beta-androsterone,

androstadientrione and beta-androstadienol.

Surfs_up described alpha-androstadienol as having "a light,

uplifting, one nice shot of champagne head to it, good for rapport, hanging out and kicking back, bantering... " and

also mentioned that the beta version has a "greater hilarity factor".

I haven't seen anything on the

potential effects of trione. I would guess beta-androsterone might have similar effects to alpha-androsterone, but

don't really know what differences there might be.

I'll start experimenting soon and report back when I

have something, but I would be interested to know if there is anything to add to the above.

[Visionary7903]

Hi PheroQuirk:wave:



Very interesting indeed! I am looking forward to your findings! Please keep us posted!

Visionary





So I have too much time on my hands, and sitting in front of me right now are three bottles -

beta-androsterone, androstadientrione and beta-androstadienol.

Surfs_up described alpha-androstadienol as having

"a light, uplifting, one nice shot of champagne head to it, good for rapport, hanging out and kicking back,

bantering... " and also mentioned that the beta version has a "greater hilarity factor".

I haven't seen

anything on the potential effects of trione. I would guess beta-androsterone might have similar effects to

alpha-androsterone, but don't really know what differences there might be.

I'll start experimenting soon and

report back when I have something, but I would be interested to know if there is anything to add to the

above.

[jvkohl]

Researchers from Monel Chemical

Senses recently indicated that the chemical ability of a compound to elicit a luteinizing hormone (LH) response

might be the best marker for determining whether it is a pheromone. I'm sure they will be pursuing this. So far,

only androstenol has been effective in eliciting the LH response in humans. Other compounds may have less reportable

effects, though this may not necessarily mean they are not effective as pheromones. To date, however, only

androstenol has been linked both to LH change and mood change in women. Androsterone, though not shown to elicit a

hormone change, can be expected to correlate well with a more masculine scent signature--because levels are higher

in men (and higher still in men whose testosterone level is not suppressed by cortisol = fear, lack of

self-confidence).

Some evidence, which I have not yet personally seen, on the metabolism of testosterone and

its link to androstadienone levels, indicates that androstadienone is not a testosterone derivitive--as has been

reported. Besides, original research suggested it functioned via the human VNO, and the presence and/or function of

the VNO has been repeatedly called to question, while the main olfactory system has been repeately shown to process

pheromones in mammals.

I find it regretable that marketing tactics sometimes pervade the ever growing list of

what people are calling human pheromones, and continue to monitor the scientific presses for more information. I am

also reminded that more than a decade ago, a product containing squalene (a supposed mating pheromone in snakes) was

incorporated into a product marketed at "Fun parties," where ladies learn about the latest products for sexual

enhancement. In two words, squalene is "snake oil." But the marketing claims made the product sucessful.

Be

careful out there; watch for "snake oil" salesmanship. Better to use the scent of tangerine-scented sea birds--or

perhaps this idea is "for the birds." We're mammals, best bet is to use something akin to a mammalian pheromone;

one that is supported by some scientific literature.

JVK

[PheroQuirk]

Thanks for

the caution jvkohl.

I'm entirely prepared for the chance that these compounds are only active in pregnant

baby elephants ;)

But my interest in dienol at least was piqued by a report by surfs_up reporting

interesting and favourable results for the alpha version. And there was no mention of the others that I could find

on this forum or on google so I thought I might as well explore further.

You may turn out to be right than

only nol acts as a pheromone that modifies human sexual behaviour. However that is not the only effect that I am

interested in and it seems clear that other pheromones can have useful and powerful effects and may be worth

incorporating into a mix even if they do not directly affect LH.

Curious to know if anyone has any knowledge

of or speculation regarding what trione or beta-rone might do...

[surfs_up]

alpha or beta refer to the orientation of a hydroxyl group (-OH), where in androsterone this is

a double bonded oxygen (=O) which doesn't exhibit the alpha/beta toggle... I was curious about what woyuld happen

if you went the other way and took an estratatreanol and tried to convert it to estratatreanone, but you'd lose one

of the double bonds in the steroid ring in the process... whatever they've got going in the new A314 is pretty damn

interesting, I have no clue what this may be... one wonders about the possibilities of -amines, the -OH could be

substituted with a -NH2 that probably would have the alpha/beta toggle, and you would have andronstenamine....

nature is filled with oderiferous amines, bacteria love to play with them, vaginas owe some of their inimitable

scent characteristics to them...

[Watcher]

well a314 is an interesting

product but im all out have tested it and will be moving onto some of the other products next. There are a cuple of

others sold here i havent used in a while so i guess thats on my new year shopping list

[surfs_up]

-Rone can come in several forms, there is only one NONE, OK, my bad,

should have read more carefully...

[PheroQuirk]

well, so far no

noticeable useful effect I have seen with trione used alone or with an A314/PI combo. it does however seem to be

effective at giving me and people around me very bad headaches ;( i might try again at a lower dose.

[Visionary7903]

Bump.

PheroQuirk

anything to report in the way of results from these possible new mones you are trying?



Visionary

[Rico]

I came across

an essential oil product that is refined from Cannabis with the THC removed. It is a legal perfumery ingredient that

has a "monster bud" aroma. Quite an old topic, I know, but I really would like to have some of this cannabis

oil that is mentioned here.

So if you are still around surf_up, please tell me where I can buy this.