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DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 12:38 AM
Fellow forum members,

friends, and surfers (Damn, that sounds political!):

I've been contributing to this forum for a few years now,

and have noticed a lot more maltreatment, insensitivity, pettiness, necessary post deletions; trolling,

name-calling, bannings, bullying, and underhandedness on the forum in recent times (well before the switch as well).

I am just getting around to saying something I could have a while back. I believe the forum used to have a bit

higher quality conversations, personal interrelations, and information; and feel disappointed in the way the trend

has developed. There is of course still a lot of first rate stuff, but it is less frequent, IMHO. I am not the only

one who has noticed this.

Please pitch in to help the above things improve a bit. My sincere hope and request is

that folks will take a private look in the mirror at their wonderful selves and make any necessary adjustments (and

not just shaving their unibrows) based on whatever they learn. Hopefully, good sense will quickly prevail, and the

forum will return to the outstanding board it once was, only better! It is still a great site!

Here is the

obligatory, "wimpy disclaimer paragraph for sensitive, litigious types." Those with thick skin and no lawyer can

skip it! ;) I'm not pointing fingers. Hey, feel free to assume it doesn't apply at all to you personally,

in fact, if you are inclined to take things personally! :D This is not about any one side of any dispute; or any one

group, philosophy, or politics, but is a general observation. I'd just prefer things would improve in general for

all of us. None of this implies that I personally am above criticism in this regard (I remain open to feedback), or

that I am complaining in particular about anything anyone said to me personally. I'm not the begrudging type

(Think: Retriever. Well, not that nice. Maybe Schnauser.). If I'm being "too serious" or "naive"; because "the web

is the web and people are people", or something, then OK I am. Lastly, of course I know no one died and made me the

judge of good quality. But I play a judge on TV, and do know things used to be different. Overall there is a ton of

good stuff in here. Whew, being nice is too much hard work! Let's just forget the whole thing! Just kidding.



Thanks in advance for listening. :)

Bruce
06-14-2004, 01:37 AM
Doc et al,
Probably by "industry

standards" we are one big warm fuzzy family, but yeah, there is always plenty of room to improve, and as forum

admin, I would love to hear as many peoples' "2 cents" as possible. If you would feel more comfortable doing that

privately, feel free to PM or email me or any of the other forum moderators.
Best Regards,
Bruce

Ash
06-14-2004, 03:08 AM
I've been having a difficult time

understanding some of your posts this weekend Doc. Let me see if I've got this one right. YOU want to be able to

say anything YOU want to say without being challenged. Because if YOUR challenged then YOUR speech rights are being

infringed upon. Does that pretty much sum it up? No? Go back and read some of your past posts and do some

introspective work on your own self. When I read a post I also read the name of the poster. When I read your posts

on subjects political I read words coming from a man that doesn't like to be challenged but he hasn't got the

balls to do anything about it up front so he starts a Thread on a topic that's kinda, sorta related and very

transparent.

This Forum, or any Forum for that matter, is a microcosm of the world we live in Doc. Reading your

past posts it's obvious to me that you would like the world to be one great big "Can't we all just get

along...kumbaya, politically correct" place, and that would be wonderful ! It could happen too if everybody thought

like you Doc but everybody doesn't think like you. Sadly for you there are people that think like me. Get used to

it Doc! Or start up a totalitarian state where you can put the unwashed, un-politically correct people like me

away.

I've not been here as long as you Doc. Just at a year for me now. I haven't seen any changes in the way

people interact since I've been here. Old Forum or New. Occasionally people write stupid things and occasionally

people write insensitive things and when they do somebody usually jumps on them. If they have a valid argument they

come back with a valid response. If they don't they usually run and hide only to return in another Thread with some

other stupid or insensitive comment. I make my share of both and I make apologies when necessary. I've grown a lot

in the year I've been here. It's the exchange of ideas and the input from other members that helps me grow. CJ is

always helping me out with my political incorrectness and one of these days I'm sure some of her feedback will

stick. Others, like SRH, don't have to say anything to me directly to help me grow. I just have to read their

words.

The ugly Cortisol hour is now upon me so I'll end with this. We have a "Rep" system now Doc. Some of us

have it turned on. We also have PM's and SMS's and lots of people willing to express their ideas without the use

of calumny or duplicity.

belgareth
06-14-2004, 05:57 AM
I've been posting to the forum for a couple years now. Before registering I spent weeks lurking and

reading posts. There has been an ebb and flow to the quality of the posts as well as to the attitudes. Right now I’d

say that the quality of posts is down, some of the best contributors have stopped posting. Also, cattiness and

verbal abuse are up. It seems to go that way, as attitudes get bad, the serious posters go away.





I'll grant Ash's statement that this is to some degree a microcosm of the

real world but there are many segments of the real world. What would be tolerated or even commonplace in one

segement of society is unheard of in another. The idea that this is a public place and we should just accept all

aspects of human behavior within this forum is absurd.



Every

person should be able to post here without fear of being personally attacked for being lame or verbally abused

because their opinion is different than someone else's. That isn't to say we shouldn't disagree, the whole idea

is to discuss and debate while having fun. When a newbie sees how another newbie or even a long time member was

attacked personally it makes them less likely to post. How many good contributors and contributions have we missed

because a person didn’t want to be publicly humiliated? I see serious posts, often daily, that are, IMO, dumb,

arrogant and outright pointless. Should I, in my infinite wisdom, be free to flame each one of them because they

disagree with me or because I thought they were lame? Should I be able to take your serious post and drag it off

track with jokes and off-color remarks and completely eliminate the possibility of a useful

response?



This is one of, if not the best, forum going. There

are a lot of bright, funny people on it sharing experiences in one of the most confusing and uncertain areas of our

daily lives. I have learned an incredible amount from you people and would like to see it continue to be a high

quality place to visit. It can only remain that way if we all adhere to some basic rules that should be obvious to

all.

jose
06-14-2004, 06:20 AM
When a forum member PM's me and says

"No one likes me here." there's something wrong with this place. Now I'm all for debates, discussions and helping

your fellow Phero users(and sometimes we stray off topics), but verbal abuse and making someone feel small should

not be tolerated in the forums. This used to be such a great place to visit.

Elana
06-14-2004, 06:24 AM
If annoys you, just use the ignore

feature. It works like a charm. :)

belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:28 AM
If annoys you,

just use the ignore feature. It works like a charm. :)
The ignore function doesn't help in the forums,

only PMs.

Elana
06-14-2004, 06:29 AM
That's not true. If you put

someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D

belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:32 AM
That's not true.

If you put someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D
It still doesn't

eliminate them from being verbally abusive, it only hides it. Everybody else sees it.

Elana
06-14-2004, 06:34 AM
If someone is annoying you, put

them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.

belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:40 AM
If someone is

annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you

can't read.
That's fine but it doesn't reduce the crappy way some of us treat others nor does it

justify it. Whether you put somebody on ignore or not is irrelevent, they are still spreading their attitude problem

throughout an otherwise good place.

jose
06-14-2004, 06:44 AM
If someone is annoying

you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't

read.

But why does it have to come to that point of ignoring someone? Pretty soon(if it's not

already) those stupid comments will be condoned, then you'll have more people doing it because of the other guy.

That's how flame board arguments start.

Elana
06-14-2004, 06:46 AM
Huh? If I don't want to read a

certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone else.

jose
06-14-2004, 07:03 AM
Huh? If I don't want to

read a certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone

else.


I'm talking about everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You

may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.

Elana
06-14-2004, 07:05 AM
Don't know what to tell ya. This

is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never

be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you

will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

belgareth
06-14-2004, 07:06 AM
I'm talking about

everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude

attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.Exactly! And if it is percieved as being condoned

it will continue and worsen.

jose
06-14-2004, 07:12 AM
Don't know what to tell

ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it

will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other

forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

I see your point Elana, but

let's just not let it get out of hand around here.

Elana
06-14-2004, 07:20 AM
All I can say is....if Tounge and I

can make peace....anything is possible. :D :D :D

oscar
06-14-2004, 08:09 AM
Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of

different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each

other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than

others.Elana,

I DO know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public

forum". It is a private forum, access to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with

certain guidelines not the least of which are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only

material that is pertinent to the forum in which it appears.

To ALL,

As a member of this board since July

2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over

nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about

pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed

to be posted there. I've seen the forum become virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was

created for such non-pheromone discussion the off topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should

remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent

deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there are areas of the board where there are no limits on

the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and

others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do so should make every effort to take this forum back

to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this

thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll

have to delete to get the message across?

There are places to post relevant material and there are places to

play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should be heeded by all.

Oscar

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 08:28 AM
Elana,

I DO

know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public forum". It is a private forum, access

to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with certain guidelines not the least of which

are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only material that is pertinent to the forum in

which it appears.

As a member of this board since July 2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can

say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very

few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found

below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed to be posted there. I've seen the forum become

virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was created for such non-pheromone discussion the off

topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There

is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there

are areas of the board where there are no limits on the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree

wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do

so should make every effort to take this forum back to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone

information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I

deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll have to delete to get the message across?

There are

places to post relevant material and there are places to play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should

be heeded by all.

OscarPoint taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you

can click on "new posts" to get the latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of

which forum it's on...so assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how

do you keep on topic and off topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just

disregarded it if they could make a joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even

know what forum I'm in half the time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some

non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post

by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that

the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke

that may or may not be pheromone related, which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement

to a different forum, which wastes moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to

point this out for future reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff

has kept a lot of people on here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on

here as long as they might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me

because I might've just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this

forum existed and kept me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent

person would say, "That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by

pointing this "new post" matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone

and non-pheromone discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones

questions. I think the place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really

need for what I have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than

if I just experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a

code of conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke

around and it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my

posts are being deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE

every day, but I haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when

people started getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential

problems.







I apologize for the following joke that I was making in reference to Adam Sandler's

skit and making fun of the "$1.25" I was giving...I didn't mean for it to be referring to anyone else besides

myself:



I don't know. That's just my $1.25...
Again, I hope nobody took it as an

attack on anyone. If they did, I apologize.

belgareth
06-14-2004, 08:37 AM
Point

taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you can click on "new posts" to get the

latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of which forum it's on...so

assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how do you keep on topic and off

topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just disregarded it if they could make a

joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even know what forum I'm in half the

time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the

difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one

by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone

comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke that may or may not be pheromone related,

which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement to a different forum, which wastes

moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to point this out for future

reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff has kept a lot of people on

here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on here as long as they

might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me because I might've

just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this forum existed and kept

me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent person would say,

"That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by pointing this "new post"

matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone and non-pheromone

discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones questions. I think the

place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really need for what I

have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than if I just

experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a code of

conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke around and

it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my posts are being

deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE every day, but I

haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when people started

getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential problems.

I

don't know. That's just my $1.25 (Isn't that the same price your mother charges for a--------well, you know the

rest, Tollbooth Willy).
Panco,

Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't

the problem you described be greatly reduced if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created

the Open discussion and humor forums so people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we

would all use it as intended.

As for the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it

anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of

the time on all the forums, it will be a very boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody

just because some clique has decided they don't like that person is intolerable.

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 08:47 AM
Panco,



Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't the problem you described be greatly reduced

if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created the Open discussion and humor forums so

people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we would all use it as intended.

As for

the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is

where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of the time on all the forums, it will be a very

boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody just because some clique has decided they

don't like that person is intolerable.
Well, the two solutions I'd think of for myself would be to post

a new thread every time I wanted to make a pun or friendly joke about something...or to be given the option of

choosing which forum I'd like my reply to be posted to when I submit a reply (in other words, reply to a post in

the phero forum but then choose an option that posts it in the Humor or Open Discussion areas because I know it's

off topic and I'd basically be doing the moderators' monotonous, tedious tasks of moving things from on topic to

off topic forums).

It's just a lot easier to hit "reply" than to switch forums, post a new thread, and name it,

"RE: Something funny about what _______ said about _____"

Or I could just quit being a smartass and shut up.



That could work, too... :o

franki
06-14-2004, 08:48 AM
Frankly, I don't really see what

the problem is. I agree the quality of the posts has gone down, but that's because we don't see many

(semi-)scientific debates on here anymore.

But I don't think that is because Pancho, Elana or I are making

frivolous posts... :rolleyes:

franki
06-14-2004, 08:59 AM
My Question: Where are the people

making informative posts about pheromones? All I read nowadays are ("stupid") newbie posts.. or reports from people

I can hardly take serious..

No wonder people are trying to have a little fun here and there, otherwise it would

get very boring..

Elana
06-14-2004, 09:11 AM
When someone comes on the forum and

asks a question, he is usually answered with a serious response. There is only a number of times you can tell

someone the difference between a drop and a dab. But for the most part people ask questions and get answers here.

oscar
06-14-2004, 09:45 AM
Pancho,

The

"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar :)

oscar
06-14-2004, 09:51 AM
Elana,

The

entirety of my post above was not meant to be aimed solely at you, and I've amended it to clear up that possible

misinterpretation.

Oscar :)

Elana
06-14-2004, 09:59 AM
Peace, Oscar...I'll do the same

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:00 AM
Pancho,

The

"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar

:)
I've noticed this...I think what I was saying is that I don't pay attention to it...maybe they should

break up the "new posts" area by section so it's more clear that you'd like for people to keep the type of posts

separate by different forums.

This would just be a technicality, though. I've gotten into the mentality with

the "new posts" option to treat all of the threads equally...like I can post whatever I want wherever I want. Maybe

keeping the forums distinct would keep their...distinctness...ummm...did I just say the same thing twice? :o What

I'm trying to say is mixing them up makes them prone to overlap. If you've noticed more irrelevant postings in

the phero area, maybe (I couldn't be sure) it's partly attributed to that.


My Idea:

New Posts



Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to get my best

friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"

Off Topic
"I am

Cool"
"Everybody Loves Elana"
"Friends Sucks"
"Memoirs of the Incredibly Intelligent"
"Friends Rules"



Women's Forum
"Why are guys so stupid? Part II"
"How do I use PCC to get a man?"
"Why are guys so

dumb?"
"How does AE/w Smell?"
"Why are guys so stupid? Part I"


It would keep your perspective that forums

are different and must be treated differently...but that's just from my perspective because of how I see the "New

Posts" option.

Bruce
06-14-2004, 10:07 AM
Folks,

Several

points:

1. Keep the feedback coming. I would like to come up with a long overdue policy statement. For the

most part I think the long-time folks "get it" very well already, but an official statement might help new folks

feel more secure. Anyway, now is the time to "bring it on"; call it an amnesty period or whatever. Nobody is going

to get banned for what they say in this thread, nor should anyone feel like they will get roasted by other members

in a PM for it either. So everybody, take a deep breath, blow out your 2 cents, and give the mods and I a little

time to formulate the "rules".

2. OK, that leads nicely into the fact that Oscar brought up. Like it or

not, the forum is indeed private. It is my living room. If someone comes into your home, starts jumping up and

down on the sofa shouting "(insert your name here) is an asshole", you are going to show him/her the door or call

the cops. On the other hand, it is not a prison. You are all guests in my home, and for various reasons, not

entirely commercial I LIKE having you here, UNLESS, you make things unpleasent for other people. I would rather

have 2 members who get along rather than 10 memebers, 8 of whom have formed a group of their own and decided for

reasons of their own that they want the other 2 burned at the stake.

3. There is a big difference between

throwing in a little "comic relief" and hijacking a serious thread. "Little" as in a single brief post.

Unfortunately, that often if not almost always leads to a long stream of banter that is very entertaining for those

folks who don't give a damn about the person (often a newbie) who started the thread and his/her interest in

pheromones or anyone else who comes here mainly to learn about pheromones. *That* is jumping up and down on my

sofa, and if my entertaining that sentiment makes me an asshole in your mind, then it is time for you to

leave.

4. As has been oft pointed out, the "Off Topic" area was created as an alternative to banning large

numbers of folks who come here primarily for reasons other than learning about pheromones or helping others learn

about them. If there is some technical problem with the current forum application that makes it difficult to tell

which forum is which, well, then we need to fix that. Wise ass comments "among friends" clearly have their place,

but not in the middle of a serious discussion about pheromones and certainly not in one discussing the furture of

the forum. I rarely if ever even look in the "Off Topic" area. It is an outlaw area in my mind. As long as it

doesn't serve as a base of operations for the destruction of the rest of the forum, knock yourself out. I do look

in the Humor section hoping to have a giggle and if I happen to be eating my lunch at the time and run into

something so disgusting/disturbing that I lose my appetite, it is going to get deleted. If you have a problem with

that, then, hey, just move on. The door is quite literaly over there. It is my home. I live here. I sleep here.

I take my meals here. Yada yada, you get the idea, but for some reason I don't think I have ever gotten an email

from a banned member who felt like I had the right to regulate the forum in any way.

Bruce

franki
06-14-2004, 10:20 AM
New

Posts

Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to

get my best friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"

This is

exactly the problem. The only posts we ever read on the pheromone forum are newbie posts. While helping out a newbie

every now and then is OK and can be fun, at this point in time it gets boring because there no interesting pheromone

threads anymore.. :(

Bruce
06-14-2004, 10:28 AM
Franki,

Who would have the

courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed

at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what

happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.

Bruce

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:35 AM
Franki,

Who

would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain

to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to

learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.



Bruce
Bruce has a point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit

it's been a long time, my thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking

to someone that "you can't be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is

actually what fueled my "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being

ridiculed.

Yeah, I'd have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.

franki
06-14-2004, 10:42 AM
You guys are probably right. I I

look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see: "Good Looks and

Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..

belgareth
06-14-2004, 10:47 AM
You guys are

probably right. I I look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see:

"Good Looks and Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..
Exactly

right and that's what we want to stop.

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:48 AM
Bruce has a

point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time, my

thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking to someone that "you can't

be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is actually what fueled my

"Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being ridiculed.

Yeah, I'd

have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.
I have an example to support the mods and

Bruce's claims even further with my "Memoirs" example. Now, even though it may be comparing apples and oranges

(pheros vs. non-pheros), but I expected to get a lot of negative feedback when I posted that stuff. Somehow,

though, no one did. However, an innocent joke by Elana led to comments by other people, which further led to

mocking...now, had I not had my rule of not responding to things, it may have led to an argument/insult exchange.

Imagine a newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he

got defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...

As much as I represent the antithesis of this argument because

of my banter, I would have to agree with Bruce and the moderators...so help me and my future forum activity.

franki
06-14-2004, 10:51 AM
Franki,

Who

would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain

to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to

learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.



Bruce Bruce, I like the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on

the philosophy behind their pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting)

pheromone forum, instead of a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where

one can easily find all news articles about phero's in the media.

Just some feedback from me..

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 11:00 AM
Bruce, I like

the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on the philosophy behind their

pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting) pheromone forum, instead of

a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where one can easily find all news

articles about phero's in the media.

Just some feedback from me..
Do the 'inventors' do 'field

tests'? If so, what were their results? Do they recommend dosages or combinations? That'd be cool to know.

Bruce
06-14-2004, 11:20 AM
Thanks for giving my points a good

looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones thread and

still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really meant to be

racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

And hey, Franki and Pancho, those are a

couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly embaressing

one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question worthy of a

serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers of these

products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post than

tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying their

threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over this

one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular

rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

Bruce

Gossamer_2701
06-14-2004, 11:36 AM
I know

that I haven't been here all that long... especially compared to many of you, but when I first found this board

this mob mentality... ridiculing and ignoring those that posted stupid or inane questions was already quite common

place. I had lurked for a few weeks reading the forums, getting to know how things and members 'worked' around

here. Not wanting to come off like a total dumbass, I spent most of my time on here doing my homework... reading all

the current posts, as well as reading through the archives which told me everything I needed to know before I ever

even applied mones for the first time. I totally understand that this place exists, because of Bruce and his great

business sense.... he created the forums to discuss mones... and help those less experienced learn how to use them

to their fullest advantage. Granted, it may get boring and seem quite mundane answering the same questions over and

over, but I also feel that its a small price to pay. I know I don't have many of the answers to the questions

asked, but I do step in and try to help whenever I possibly can. We all should, and we should consider it a

privilege to be a part of such an open and free forum!!!

That said..... I also find the mob mentality and

personal attacks unaccepable! Voicing ones opinion is fine... and when one persons views are so wrong that everyone

needs to voice their own opinions on just how wrong that one person is... well thats one thing... and the only time

it should be accepted. One group of members, acting like a little gang of playground thugs, ganging up on another

member just because one of the gang has a beef with them is unacceptable and shouln't be tollerated. And mean

spirited personal attacks should NEVER be tollerated... period!!!

I am probably just as guilty as Pancho with

my smartass jokes.... I find it more enjoyable to read these posts and the forum as a whole when I can smile and

laugh, and I try to bring that to my fellow members. I also know when to keep things serious and on topic.... I

personally learned a long time ago not to argue about two subjects.... politics and religion.... they are both

personal points of view and no matter how much you argue your point, it won't change mine... so I don't try to

change yours. But many threads have probably been hijacked because of one of my smarttass comments, and even though

that one comment was all I contributed to that thread, someones question or discussion probably didn't get answered

or discussed the way it should have.... for that I appologize. It was all in fun, and from now on I will pay closer

attention to where I post those kinds of things.

I hope we can all come to a happy medium, work out all the

little kinks, and move into a new age on the Love Scent Forums. I have met some pretty incredible people here

(probably the whole reason I've stayed on the forum after learning how to use my mones) and I hope to meet many

more now that Bruce has taken Love Scent to the next level.

Bruce, thank you for inviting me into your home, and

making me feel like one of the family.

DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the feedback, ash.

You and I disagree about the value of "just everyone dogpile on the "fool"/"bitch"/whatever, call them abusive

names, and/or take revenge behind their backs" approach. I don't think it's "lack of balls" as you say that keeps

me from participating in that Jerry Springer BS. If I think I need to get in someone's face I do it. I honestly try

to turn my reaction into helpful feedback for everyone if it seems to be a group issue; and be constructive,

whether or not I succeed. I prefer that approach and will continue it. I'm not going to make it my problem if you

don't understand it. My only responsibility there is to keep editing until I think the post is clear and makes

sense, and I do spend a lot of time editing my stuff before I burden others with it. I think it's possible to have

a forum without all that disrespect, that is still decidedly not PC. It used to be that way here, in

fact. I'll own up to being too defensive when someone disagrees in a way that I believe is attacking,

unconstructive, and irrational. I like respectful debate, and get unpleasant feelings when it's not. I work on that

fault, and am well aware of it. You took my post personally and got very defensive too, which doesn't suprise me.

It honestly wasn't aimed at you personally. But "if the shoe fits pick it up and wear it", as you apparently did.



I knew very well the kinds of responses I was going to get here, but felt I needed to make the post anyway.

That's as much of my balls as you get to enjoy right now, ash.

Bruce made an important distinction about "a

little bit of looseness and lightheartedness", which I support, versus thread hijacking, which is just

disrespectful.

I actually was only complaing about the disrespectful stuff, whether blunt or indirect. It

boggles my mind that someone could read that as wanting to squash harmless fun. I agree that if talk were always

about pheromones it would get boring. I don't see anyone being prevented from taking about whatever they want on

Bruce's forum if done sensibly. That doesn't mean hijacking just to fuck with somebody is OK.

JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 12:47 PM
Imagine a

newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he got

defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...


No, Pancho, that was NOT what was going on with Carlos.

While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to

death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the

blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big

bad schoolyard bullies.

Which brings me to the rest of my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then

this is going to be a very different kind of board than what I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found

personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not

picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already given here. I'm not even going to bother going

into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide what I will or won't read, what I will or

won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given moment.

The problem is that we're

travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic ability to determine what is or is not

offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an ordinary conversational flow. So, taking

keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they have done it?? Someone used the word

"schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

You could be reactive, or proactive. Did it

ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of conversation you may not favor might be

to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some interesting experiments and studies and post

your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a

negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to annoy; take positive action intended to provide some

positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly

decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of

the forum that you probably didn't get because you were only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another

poor "innocent".)

I get what you're saying, Bruce. But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too

many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on,

because you already know he's a good guy when he sobers up a little.

DZorro
06-14-2004, 12:50 PM
Thanks for giving my

points a good looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones

thread and still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really

meant to be racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

And hey, Franki and Pancho,

those are a couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly

embaressing one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question

worthy of a serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers

of these products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post

than tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying

their threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over

this one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular

rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

Bruce

I guess we should not forget that

at one point we all where newbies here.
So we should cut them a little slack, at the beginning i did not now much

about phermones, and lot's of the regulars here helped me a great lot, and i am still learning stuff here everyday.



As for bruce it statement i sure hope it will not end up like that for the newbies.

But it will defanantly

be more informative if we could get a report from the phermones makers it self, since these are the guys that

invented the phermones, i would also like a sort of a report about TE/m, since that was one of my first product here

i ever used, and since it's mostly used by newbies who first try phermones it would be benefitial for them

aswell.




DZorro,

DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 01:05 PM
No, Pancho,

that was NOT what was going on with Carlos. While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was

simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a

prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so

he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big bad schoolyard bullies.

Which brings me to the rest of

my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then this is going to be a very different kind of board than what

I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar

rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already

given here. I'm not even going to bother going into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide

what I will or won't read, what I will or won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given

moment.

The problem is that we're travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic

ability to determine what is or is not offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an

ordinary conversational flow. So, taking keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they

have done it?? Someone used the word "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

You

could be reactive, or proactive. Did it ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of

conversation you may not favor might be to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some

interesting experiments and studies and post your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of

pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to

annoy; take positive action intended to provide some positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not

find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the

board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of the forum that you probably didn't get because you were

only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another poor "innocent".)

I get what you're saying, Bruce.

But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of

action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on, because you already know he's a good guy when he

sobers up a little.
If you have people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on

the role of schoolmarm.

If someone is PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod

know or call them on it, at least. No one is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your

own damn fault if it gets deleted. The schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before

she leaves for the day.

CptKipling
06-14-2004, 01:11 PM
I don't have much

new to add, but I just wanted to reiterate the importance of encouraging "interesting" pheromone

discussion. It was good to see the BDC people posting, I hope they haven't gone

too...



A lot of the stock newbie questions that get asked twice a

week can get boring to answer. I remember helping with the Cookbook which, even as a work in progress, helped a lot

of the newbies out. However, Nimbus has unfortunately left us, and the Cookbook is a bit outdated. Initially it was

intended to be a collection of mixing knowledge, but I really think we need a "Starters Guide" section, containing a

lot more of the stock newbie questions and start-up techniques etc. I started doing this when Nimbus resurfaced a

while ago, so it wouldn't be a huge job to knock out a basic version if the consensus was that it would help.





Anyway, the point that I was aiming at with the previous

paragraph (and missed entirely ;)) was that discussion would have a much better flow with a more obvious forum

etiquette. Many other forums have very strict rules, I don't think we need to go that far, despite some of the

hostility on here it's still a friendly place with a good group of people.





A note on the technical side of the forum:





-We need to have the search function fixed. We currently can't

search for two or three letter words, which as Sod's law would have it is most of the useful content on the forum

(SOE, TE etc.)



-We need a more obvious

link to the reference material. There is one in the newbie thread but it's a lot less obvious than the old forum's

link.

a.k.a.
06-14-2004, 01:31 PM
I can easily ignore stupid opinions

and mean spirited people; but hijacked threads are very frustrating. Sometimes I open up a thread with something to

say, but by the time I’ve scrolled through all the insipid banter I figure, “What’s the point?”

JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 01:42 PM
If you have

people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on the role of schoolmarm.

If someone is

PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod know or call them on it, at least. No one

is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your own damn fault if it gets deleted. The

schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before she leaves for the day.
I

didn't think the PM's were abusive. They possibly wouldn't even have seemed inappropriate to someone else. I

found it objectionable, as apparently did others. It WAS dealt with quite directly. And was quite efficient,

apparently. You just didn't like it that way, which is pretty much too bad at this point, since it's all been said

and done. You've missed the point that what appeared to be wrong to you might not have appeared so if you really

knew what was going on - unless you did know, and thought it was all o.k.?? Two messages got passed: 1) If you

screw around with people, they probably won't take very kindly to it; and 2) Message received, let's call an end

to the hostilities now. I don't think a schoolmarm is really required, and they usually take the summers off

anyway, don't they?

Bruce
06-14-2004, 02:00 PM
CK,

I will see about getting

those technical problems fixed.

Peachy,

From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the

pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind,

so fair play, but I review the deleted material personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think

I have ever seen a deleted post that I wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all

the "slicing and dicing" that goes on around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do

it", I personally wasted quite a bit of time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the

heck was being discussed (ie: the future of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and

his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school

marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of the options.

Your point about being more proactive is

well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner

core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on

and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a little proactivity yourself, but the point here is

to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people could conceivably hang out without need of a flak

jacket and helmet.

Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my

family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what? We don't keep coffee in our home either

(though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky we don't entertain drunks. I guess

that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?

Bruce

Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 02:13 PM
I didn't know about Carlos'

antics. I was just trying to think of an example of a newbie getting into a fight. Even if it was his fault, how

does that look to other potential members that a newbie got attacked? Yes, nobody knew the whole story but the

people involved, but I could see other strangers looking and saying, "Wow, that guy got butchered...I'm not

posting."

That being said, I apologize for the bad example. Next time, I'll think of a better one.

Ash
06-14-2004, 02:57 PM
What, no cap for my name Doc? "ash"?

I've been diss'd. I'm deeply offended. HAHA, not really. I was offended by Metro's Reagan posts though. Not

personally offended but angry that he accused all those posting favorable comments about our Ex-Pres as being

"Brainwashed". And, IMHO, his reference to Stalin was wayy over the top as was his Cartoon post (under the

circumstances)but that's Metro and he has the right to say what he likes. I have a right to comment on it though

and that's the part you don't get. You didn't get it in the Terrorist Thread, the Michael Moore Thread or the

Reagan Thread. FREE SPEECH IS A TWO WAY STREET DOC!

This latest Thread of yours, following the Reagan Thread so

closely, led me to believe it was a continuation of your thought process from previous posts and I still believe it

was to a certain extant. After reading through ALL the replys to this Thread I can see now that there are bigger

issues being discussed. My Bad for not seeing the whole picture before but I don't read ALL the Threads here and

didn't realize that there was some "serious" bashing going on. I'm quite guilty of bashing on occasion. In the

very recent past every time I bash it seems to be followed by you admonishing me for speaking my mind and rising to

the defense of those that I've criticized even though their comments are, IMHO, totally indefensible. But that's

COOL Doc, you've got the right to say whatever you want to me. That's FREE SPEECH DOC and I'm very cool with

it.

Moving on to the "Bigger Issues". Respectfully directed at Bruce.

Way back last summer ******

deleted a reply I had made to a guy that had seriously offended me. It was my very first deletion and I got in touch

with ****** to find out why he had pulled my post and not the post that had offended me. We exchanged a few PM's

and the bottom line was he just didn't feel like it. Further probing by me through PM's with ******* reveled that

there was no set of "Rules or Guidelines" for the Mod's. Whatever they felt like pulling got pulled. It sounded a

bit like anarchy to me but as you pointed out it's your House Bruce. In one of your posts here you mention that

having an expanded set of Rules might not be a bad idea for Forum members. I agree. Unless things have already been

changed it would be nice if the Mod's had a set of rules to go by too.

Banning? How about a three

strikes and your out rule? And, would amnesty be possible for Deb? Her being banned is all my fault actually. She

got off to a bad start after reading some of my posts in the Terrorist T. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing Bruce and

Deb really is a very sweet person and totally repentant. She just had a very bad week is all.

Icons?

This may seem like a small thing but for me it's bigger than you might think. Many here already know that I'm a

little strange. Some of what I write can easily be taken the wrong way. Icons go along way to help me "Express" what

I'm really saying. The Icons on the new Forum SUCK!!!! They're seriously ugly and almost demonic looking, whereas

my little friends at the Old Forum were sweet and very expressive. A post by the Webmaster told of how he was

working for free. A statement that totally mystified me but whatever. I will personally pay him to change the Icons

here out for the old icons Bruce! I especially miss my little buddy *D*..:D ..*sigh* :( SEE WHAT I MEAN? Also, I

think the addition of a *puke* icon would be in very good taste along with an Old style ROFLMAO!

Sexyredhead
06-14-2004, 03:35 PM
Speaking of icons, I frequent

another forum that has a nice variety of emoticons. I'd be happy to PM you or the Webmaster the site, if you're

interested in checking them out. I don't know if it's possible to add emoticons, but if so, those would be some

nice ones to add. :)

If it's possible it would be nice to see the past several people at least that we've

given repuation to, because some of us don't pass out rep points as often as others and we tend to get frustrated

seeing that "you must pass more rep around" window. :o

I'm glad someone mentioned the reference material

link. I've been looking for it but haven't been able to find it. If it was displayed more prominently, it might

help newbies out as well as those of us who don't have perfect memories or are trying new products for the first

time.

Bruce
06-14-2004, 05:16 PM
Ash,

I am generally a sucker

for a banned member who wants another chance, but we exchanged a few emails and she finally went off in a huff.

Also, she was warned a couple of times about the same issue and each time promised to stop it, only to take it to a

new level. Carlos wants back on too you know. Survey female forum members and see how they would feel about

that.

The emoticons sound very do-able. SRH, PM Webmaster with the URL and I bet he'll fix us up with

that.

B

JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 05:22 PM
Peachy,
...


From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a

time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind, so fair play, but I review the deleted material

personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think I have ever seen a deleted post that I

wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all the "slicing and dicing" that goes on

around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do it", I personally wasted quite a bit of

time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the heck was being discussed (ie: the future

of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for

Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of

the options.

Your point about being more proactive is well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I

guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were

constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a

little proactivity yourself, but the point here is to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people

could conceivably hang out without need of a flak jacket and helmet.

Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep

any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what?

We don't keep coffee in our home either (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky

we don't entertain drunks. I guess that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?



Bruce
Actually, Bruce, I had no idea Carlos had gotten banned at all. I thought he had just taken a

giant hint (about the size of Cincinnatti) and buzzed off. I am surprised to hear you hadn't already considered

taking a proactive approach. I have had the impression that you, as you said earlier, aren't terribly inclined to

take the draconian approach as a first option.

In any case, it is certainly true that I have made a number of

drug and alcohol related cracks, even on this thread, as have others. Apparently, you have gotten some strange

impression that I would somehow approve (or even instigate?) a drunken brawl in my own home! To the contrary, this

would not blend well with either my athletic or my social pursuits in real life. The point was intended far more in

a "Kumbaya" vein than "Miss Manners" (Although, I do believe that even she, dear lady, would have agreed with my

example, however firmly she had planted toungue in cheek when doing so). I am genuinely sorry it came off otherwise.

I can see why you might not appreciate the schoomarm references, just as I felt the nearly inescapable lure of

zinging the writer of the schoolyard bully reference. Miss Peach blushes at her own lack of decorum. This peach has

thick skin almost everywhere, except where it doesn't.

Do you see where I am heading here? We can clean up the

language used, dispose of the declassé references, and make conciliatory gestures using all the

very best netiquette. But an edge is an edge, however phrased, and whether or not every reader is even capable of

discerning such. And that, rather than the manner of its deliverance, is the real problem at hand. It does no good

to jump to either the extreme of an unchecked holocaust or a button-down ghost of true debate. Ironically, it may

also not be such a good thing to take the middle of the road in some ways, unless we are very clear as to whether

the matter is really one of mere style or of actual substance. Your call, certainly. I would only urge you to

consider this thought as you formulate your forthcoming policies.

Ash
06-14-2004, 05:32 PM
Thanks for your reply Bruce! Thanks

for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread I think and I can't

tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very positive effect on

me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM from one of the

truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from the Old Forum*

DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 09:53 PM
For

what it's worth on "non-PC debating", in case someone is interested in the topic, which is I think relevant:



The thread where Bobby from BDC first posted was a good example where debate happened without lines being crossed.

Bobby's presence was really helpful to folks. I'm glad that conversation happened, even though not everyone agreed

with me.

I personally have spent a lot of time, over 15 years, in academia, constantly surrounded by debates

and debaters. I love good debates and will take on all comers quite comfortably if it's something I've thought a

lot about. But there's a difference between debating and street brawling, or bathroom graffiti. Remember the show,

Politically Incorrect, with Bill Maher? That was another example where people said controversial things and

disagreed without verbal street brawling or disrespect (mostly). They kidded each other in off color ways. No harm,

no foul.

But one thing I learned from academia is, if you're going to be really non-PC, (like Larry Bird

saying the NBA needs more white people, or Rasheed saying African-Americans are exploited in the NBA) you have to be

prepared to defend your position in a well thought out, rational way, all the way to the core; because people are

going to come at you hard and fast. Just calling them names; making glib snappy comebacks; or attacking personally

doesn't work in your favor. You will look like an idiot, frankly. They (those really good debater types) will pull

the pillars out from under where you thought you stood.

If I knowingly have stated an opinion that is counter

to the "prevailing view", I have already implicitly set the stage for a possible debate, unless I made clear that I

only wanted to give a tentative, intuitive, or feeling-based opinion. And if I contine to push my opinion, or

attempt to debate, it will be completely freaking irrelevant to say in my own defense, "well everyone's

entitled to an opinion in our free country." Becase you're not just expressing your opinion in that case,

you're also saying or at least implying it is a valid and sound opinion, and that it is moreso than someone

else's. Otherwise you would just respectfully state it, leave it at being just your opinion, be clear about that,

and then spend the rest of your time showing respect to others' opinions. So you're already coming off as

making no sense saying that-- the worst possible defeat for a debater, by all standards.

No one

will arrest you. That's exactly how far "I have a right to my opinion in this free country" gets you in a

debate. But thoughtful folks won't respect you intellectually or modify their beliefs (or necessarily

keep you as a member in their forum). Who cares about that? Well, aside from wanting to earn intellectual

respect, if you enter into actual debate, you are implicitly agreeing to modify your own beliefs if the

other person wins deservedly, or "demonstrates rational superiority," as they say. (It's like science and

falsifiability.) Otherwise you wouldn't be making arguments at all. Someone who doesn't demonstrate that spirit

(e.g., by finding another's point truly interesting, or acknowledging various changes in their position. Both

techniques were well demonstrated by Bobby in that thread.) comes off as a hypocrite, time-waster, masturbater, and

fool, frankly. They can fairly expect to be treated as if they are coming off in that way -- with personal

respect, of course.

The good news is that knowing all this makes one a better debater. Because even if one

can't see the need to modify his or her thinking, one can always use their humility to say "I need to think about

that more;" or say that there are "unanswered questions", or "unclear" places, or "this is the part I still don't

understand" for example; without looking at all foolish, even if they aren't the best debaters. Another

option is to take Maher's approach and kid people harmlessly. Still another that works just fine is to just state

it's an opinion and leave it at that, though this feels limiting for many folks. A fourth option, then, is to work

on one's skills. Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone has to debate skillfully. I am sharing that this is what I

learned happens, through having been "beat up" in various debates. The above can be taken as "debate survival

tips".

If I state a controversial opinion, then, I know to expect people to come at me tenaciously, pointing out

potential problems with my rational thinking, all the way to the core. I am not going to think they are

disrespecting my rights to free speech, or think I don't have such rights in their eyes. However, if they try to

brawl instead, spout graffiti, or show disrespect, they have instead lost, if I have used my debate survival

skills.

DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 10:49 PM
Thanks for your

reply Bruce! Thanks for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread

I think and I can't tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very

positive effect on me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM

from one of the truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from

the Old Forum*:eek: :)
....

Watcher
06-14-2004, 10:50 PM
This thread has been very

informative - a user agreement sounds like a good idea - set out what and will not be accepted etc.

People

should make greater use of the reputation aspects of the forum - keeping it on topic in the pheromone discussion

area is a good idea and all off topic in off topic.

I have been on and off recently - not as much as i used

to be but being here since 2000 or 2001 i think the longer term members have an idea of what is good and what is

bad.

DrSmellThis
06-15-2004, 01:29 AM
BTW, I'd like to thank Pancho

for bumping some of his excellent posts.

InternationalPlayboy
07-01-2004, 11:28 AM
Wow. I read mainly

the Pheromone Discussions thread, so I didn't know there was so much controversy going on. I just noticed that

several frequent posters had been banned and was trying to find out what happened.

The first forum I ever

frequented was the Deepak Chopra forum hosted by Random House. I found it around 1999 and became a regular

participant. I loved the anarchy about the place. Anything and everything was discussed, there were no moderators.



It was great... for a few months. Then a battle of egos started. Interesting when part of Eastern philosophy

is to rid yourself of your ego. There was one person who I will call "the Messiah," as he has had some sort of

"awakening" and first went to Chopra's forum to discuss it as he thought he was losing his mind.

The other

instigator was someone I'll call "the Cynic." This guy took a deep loathing to the Messiah, and started to flame

him every time he posted. By the time the USA was gearing up for war with Iraq, the Messiah, who is a Brit, started

posting anti war/Bush stuff. The Cynic would retaliate with just posting extremely high resolution photos and cut

and paste text from other forums, making it impossible for anyone to read it as it took too long to load.

A

third participant, whom I'll refer to as "the Vagabond," would echo the Messiah's opinions, which also brought the

Cynic's wrath upon him and was treated with the same abuse that the Messiah was.

When the Cynic first came

onto the scene, one woman who was offended, created a private chatroom with Spiritweb as a safe place to play. I was

a member of this group, along with the Messiah and the Vagabond. Spiritweb eventually dropped their chatroom

function so the Vagabond started a private chat area on his website.

Well, I got blasted at the private

chatroom for telling the Messiah and the Vagabond at Chopra's that they were just as guilty as the Cynic for

bringing Chopra's forum down. They knew if they posted anything political on the forum, the Cynic would retaliate

with garbage, rendering the forum usless for everyone. Yet they would continue to do so. Instead of seeing it as the

pissing match it was, they were comparing their web presence to marching to free Nelson Mandela.

The Messiah

and Vagabond and a few supporters contacted Random House about the Cynic's abuse, which ended up with the forum

closing, to be replaced with a (supposedly) moderated forum. The flaming continued for a bit, until the Cynic

finally got banned. But the new place is just a shell of what once was. There is virtually no discussion on Deepak

Chopra and his works there anymore. It's still mainly the Messiah's critisim of the U.S., it's governors and

it's policies.

I no longer participate there. I go back occasionally to look, but just don't feel like

inputing there anymore. After being dogpiled on at the Vagabond's chatroom, I lost all urge to post there too, and

cut my visits down to once a week, then once a month, then to every few months when I remembered the place. It

turned into the Messiah fan club. Finally, sometime around last Thanksgiving, I found that they had changed the

password, locking me out.

A friend from the Chopra and Spiritweb sites told me about the Straight Dope

Message Board, and I got hooked on that. It's moderated, something I thought I wouldn't like, but it turned out I

did. It kept the Cynic, Vagabond, and Messiah types away. Trouble with that board is that there is so much to read

there I waste too much time. They also recently went to a fee based membership, so I think they are going to lose a

lot of good input. I did sign up as a "charter member" as I thought $5/year was a lot better that the regular price

of around $20.

I had peeked into this forum a couple of times but didn't participate until I bought WAGG

through a Wacky Wednesday special. With all the new products in the last few months, I've since become obsessed

with mones and enjoy the forum here. Though I still like the anarchy of the Internet, I appreciate the moderators

here and the job they do. This a great place. I particularly like the fact that Bruce, JVK and the guys from BDC

concepts are posting here.

I like this place and Bruce has every right to run it the way he feel it should

be run. After all, he is using his own money to keep it running. It's not like we pay to post here.

I can

remember a poster at the second incarnation of the Chopra forum threatening to sue because they blocked his

cartoonish picture of President Bush. He claimed that the moderators were supressing his freedom of speech. He could

not see the logic when I pointed out that Crown Publishing was hosting the site and we had to play by their rules.

It was still a free speech issue to him.

Now I'm an anarchist at heart, but I believe there is a personal

responsability to individual rights that goes along with anarchy. There should be no laws, other than laws against

initiatory force against others. In other words, I believe in your right to swing your arms around wildly, but that

right ends when your fist comes in contact with my nose.

Looks like some here made contact with the forum's

nose.

Anyway, I hope I made some sense in this rambling post. I just wanted to relate my bad experiences with

other forums and to support Bruce and the moderators' decisions to run this place as they see fit to do so.

DrSmellThis
07-02-2004, 01:57 AM
Nice anecdote, IP.

For

"whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here again, with quality

posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't think I'm imagining

things. :think:

My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore the Phero Forum to

its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed, at present I no

longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy just seems very

different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.

Peace, Love and Kumbaya! :drunk:

belgareth
07-02-2004, 03:54 AM
Nice

anecdote, IP.

For "whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here

again, with quality posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't

think I'm imagining things. :think:

My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore

the Phero Forum to its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed,

at present I no longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy

just seems very different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.

Peace, Love and Kumbaya!

:drunk:
I'll second that. It's surprising what a few bad actors can do to mess up something basically

good. Thanks to all of you who have started posting great stuff on the forum.

Bruce
07-02-2004, 05:44 AM
Doc and other fellow forum

folks,

I concur. It was a tough decision, but honest to God feel I had no alternative. Use whatever

metaphor you want, it wasn't exactly a fun job and there was nobody running out of his house to spread rose petals

at my feet, but the science crowd is returning from exhile and the power vaccuum is gradualy filling. Once again, I

myself feel comfortable posting without fear of being flamed by the "the cartel". I can walk around with my head up

in my own home. I'm getting my forum back and my life as well. Thank you all very much!

Gang, I was a

little nervous when I saw this thread reactivate. Although, I am glad to see what did get posted, I am going to

close the thread down now. I just want to move on and forget the past; rebuild the forum into the peaceful

intelligent home that it once was. I still intend to post some sort of "rules" as has been requested. In the mean

time how about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Maybe that can get us by in the mean time. If

you really feel like you have to say something negative, send it to me privately. Make it thoughtful and I will

respond as best I can.

Love, hugs, kisses, beads, bells, incense, Hari Krsna and praise the Lord,
Bruce