View Full Version : Misbehavin'
DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 12:38 AM
Fellow forum members,
friends, and surfers (Damn, that sounds political!):
I've been contributing to this forum for a few years now,
and have noticed a lot more maltreatment, insensitivity, pettiness, necessary post deletions; trolling,
name-calling, bannings, bullying, and underhandedness on the forum in recent times (well before the switch as well).
I am just getting around to saying something I could have a while back. I believe the forum used to have a bit
higher quality conversations, personal interrelations, and information; and feel disappointed in the way the trend
has developed. There is of course still a lot of first rate stuff, but it is less frequent, IMHO. I am not the only
one who has noticed this.
Please pitch in to help the above things improve a bit. My sincere hope and request is
that folks will take a private look in the mirror at their wonderful selves and make any necessary adjustments (and
not just shaving their unibrows) based on whatever they learn. Hopefully, good sense will quickly prevail, and the
forum will return to the outstanding board it once was, only better! It is still a great site!
Here is the
obligatory, "wimpy disclaimer paragraph for sensitive, litigious types." Those with thick skin and no lawyer can
skip it! ;) I'm not pointing fingers. Hey, feel free to assume it doesn't apply at all to you personally,
in fact, if you are inclined to take things personally! :D This is not about any one side of any dispute; or any one
group, philosophy, or politics, but is a general observation. I'd just prefer things would improve in general for
all of us. None of this implies that I personally am above criticism in this regard (I remain open to feedback), or
that I am complaining in particular about anything anyone said to me personally. I'm not the begrudging type
(Think: Retriever. Well, not that nice. Maybe Schnauser.). If I'm being "too serious" or "naive"; because "the web
is the web and people are people", or something, then OK I am. Lastly, of course I know no one died and made me the
judge of good quality. But I play a judge on TV, and do know things used to be different. Overall there is a ton of
good stuff in here. Whew, being nice is too much hard work! Let's just forget the whole thing! Just kidding.
Thanks in advance for listening. :)
Bruce
06-14-2004, 01:37 AM
Doc et al,
Probably by "industry
standards" we are one big warm fuzzy family, but yeah, there is always plenty of room to improve, and as forum
admin, I would love to hear as many peoples' "2 cents" as possible. If you would feel more comfortable doing that
privately, feel free to PM or email me or any of the other forum moderators.
Best Regards,
Bruce
I've been having a difficult time
understanding some of your posts this weekend Doc. Let me see if I've got this one right. YOU want to be able to
say anything YOU want to say without being challenged. Because if YOUR challenged then YOUR speech rights are being
infringed upon. Does that pretty much sum it up? No? Go back and read some of your past posts and do some
introspective work on your own self. When I read a post I also read the name of the poster. When I read your posts
on subjects political I read words coming from a man that doesn't like to be challenged but he hasn't got the
balls to do anything about it up front so he starts a Thread on a topic that's kinda, sorta related and very
transparent.
This Forum, or any Forum for that matter, is a microcosm of the world we live in Doc. Reading your
past posts it's obvious to me that you would like the world to be one great big "Can't we all just get
along...kumbaya, politically correct" place, and that would be wonderful ! It could happen too if everybody thought
like you Doc but everybody doesn't think like you. Sadly for you there are people that think like me. Get used to
it Doc! Or start up a totalitarian state where you can put the unwashed, un-politically correct people like me
away.
I've not been here as long as you Doc. Just at a year for me now. I haven't seen any changes in the way
people interact since I've been here. Old Forum or New. Occasionally people write stupid things and occasionally
people write insensitive things and when they do somebody usually jumps on them. If they have a valid argument they
come back with a valid response. If they don't they usually run and hide only to return in another Thread with some
other stupid or insensitive comment. I make my share of both and I make apologies when necessary. I've grown a lot
in the year I've been here. It's the exchange of ideas and the input from other members that helps me grow. CJ is
always helping me out with my political incorrectness and one of these days I'm sure some of her feedback will
stick. Others, like SRH, don't have to say anything to me directly to help me grow. I just have to read their
words.
The ugly Cortisol hour is now upon me so I'll end with this. We have a "Rep" system now Doc. Some of us
have it turned on. We also have PM's and SMS's and lots of people willing to express their ideas without the use
of calumny or duplicity.
belgareth
06-14-2004, 05:57 AM
I've been posting to the forum for a couple years now. Before registering I spent weeks lurking and
reading posts. There has been an ebb and flow to the quality of the posts as well as to the attitudes. Right now I’d
say that the quality of posts is down, some of the best contributors have stopped posting. Also, cattiness and
verbal abuse are up. It seems to go that way, as attitudes get bad, the serious posters go away.
I'll grant Ash's statement that this is to some degree a microcosm of the
real world but there are many segments of the real world. What would be tolerated or even commonplace in one
segement of society is unheard of in another. The idea that this is a public place and we should just accept all
aspects of human behavior within this forum is absurd.
Every
person should be able to post here without fear of being personally attacked for being lame or verbally abused
because their opinion is different than someone else's. That isn't to say we shouldn't disagree, the whole idea
is to discuss and debate while having fun. When a newbie sees how another newbie or even a long time member was
attacked personally it makes them less likely to post. How many good contributors and contributions have we missed
because a person didn’t want to be publicly humiliated? I see serious posts, often daily, that are, IMO, dumb,
arrogant and outright pointless. Should I, in my infinite wisdom, be free to flame each one of them because they
disagree with me or because I thought they were lame? Should I be able to take your serious post and drag it off
track with jokes and off-color remarks and completely eliminate the possibility of a useful
response?
This is one of, if not the best, forum going. There
are a lot of bright, funny people on it sharing experiences in one of the most confusing and uncertain areas of our
daily lives. I have learned an incredible amount from you people and would like to see it continue to be a high
quality place to visit. It can only remain that way if we all adhere to some basic rules that should be obvious to
all.
When a forum member PM's me and says
"No one likes me here." there's something wrong with this place. Now I'm all for debates, discussions and helping
your fellow Phero users(and sometimes we stray off topics), but verbal abuse and making someone feel small should
not be tolerated in the forums. This used to be such a great place to visit.
Elana
06-14-2004, 06:24 AM
If annoys you, just use the ignore
feature. It works like a charm. :)
belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:28 AM
If annoys you,
just use the ignore feature. It works like a charm. :)
The ignore function doesn't help in the forums,
only PMs.
Elana
06-14-2004, 06:29 AM
That's not true. If you put
someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D
belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:32 AM
That's not true.
If you put someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious :D
It still doesn't
eliminate them from being verbally abusive, it only hides it. Everybody else sees it.
Elana
06-14-2004, 06:34 AM
If someone is annoying you, put
them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.
belgareth
06-14-2004, 06:40 AM
If someone is
annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you
can't read.
That's fine but it doesn't reduce the crappy way some of us treat others nor does it
justify it. Whether you put somebody on ignore or not is irrelevent, they are still spreading their attitude problem
throughout an otherwise good place.
If someone is annoying
you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't
read.
But why does it have to come to that point of ignoring someone? Pretty soon(if it's not
already) those stupid comments will be condoned, then you'll have more people doing it because of the other guy.
That's how flame board arguments start.
Elana
06-14-2004, 06:46 AM
Huh? If I don't want to read a
certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone else.
Huh? If I don't want to
read a certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone
else.
I'm talking about everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You
may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.
Elana
06-14-2004, 07:05 AM
Don't know what to tell ya. This
is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never
be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you
will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.
belgareth
06-14-2004, 07:06 AM
I'm talking about
everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude
attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.Exactly! And if it is percieved as being condoned
it will continue and worsen.
Don't know what to tell
ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it
will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other
forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.
I see your point Elana, but
let's just not let it get out of hand around here.
Elana
06-14-2004, 07:20 AM
All I can say is....if Tounge and I
can make peace....anything is possible. :D :D :D
oscar
06-14-2004, 08:09 AM
Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of
different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each
other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than
others.Elana,
I DO know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public
forum". It is a private forum, access to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with
certain guidelines not the least of which are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only
material that is pertinent to the forum in which it appears.
To ALL,
As a member of this board since July
2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over
nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very few of them have been positive.
This is a forum about
pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed
to be posted there. I've seen the forum become virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was
created for such non-pheromone discussion the off topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should
remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.
There is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent
deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there are areas of the board where there are no limits on
the topics posted.
I'm sick and tired of it. I agree wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and
others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do so should make every effort to take this forum back
to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone information.
Just the hijacking efforts on this
thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll
have to delete to get the message across?
There are places to post relevant material and there are places to
play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should be heeded by all.
Oscar
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 08:28 AM
Elana,
I DO
know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public forum". It is a private forum, access
to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with certain guidelines not the least of which
are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only material that is pertinent to the forum in
which it appears.
As a member of this board since July 2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can
say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very
few of them have been positive.
This is a forum about pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found
below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed to be posted there. I've seen the forum become
virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was created for such non-pheromone discussion the off
topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.
There
is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there
are areas of the board where there are no limits on the topics posted.
I'm sick and tired of it. I agree
wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do
so should make every effort to take this forum back to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone
information.
Just the hijacking efforts on this thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I
deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll have to delete to get the message across?
There are
places to post relevant material and there are places to play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should
be heeded by all.
OscarPoint taken...
...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you
can click on "new posts" to get the latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of
which forum it's on...so assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how
do you keep on topic and off topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just
disregarded it if they could make a joke (I'm guilty).
However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even
know what forum I'm in half the time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some
non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post
by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that
the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke
that may or may not be pheromone related, which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement
to a different forum, which wastes moderators' time.
Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to
point this out for future reference.
I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff
has kept a lot of people on here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on
here as long as they might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me
because I might've just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this
forum existed and kept me on it.
I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent
person would say, "That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by
pointing this "new post" matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone
and non-pheromone discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones
questions. I think the place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really
need for what I have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than
if I just experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a
code of conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke
around and it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my
posts are being deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE
every day, but I haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...
That, of course, is when
people started getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential
problems.
I apologize for the following joke that I was making in reference to Adam Sandler's
skit and making fun of the "$1.25" I was giving...I didn't mean for it to be referring to anyone else besides
myself:
I don't know. That's just my $1.25...
Again, I hope nobody took it as an
attack on anyone. If they did, I apologize.
belgareth
06-14-2004, 08:37 AM
Point
taken...
...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you can click on "new posts" to get the
latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of which forum it's on...so
assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how do you keep on topic and off
topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just disregarded it if they could make a
joke (I'm guilty).
However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even know what forum I'm in half the
time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the
difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one
by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone
comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke that may or may not be pheromone related,
which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement to a different forum, which wastes
moderators' time.
Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to point this out for future
reference.
I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff has kept a lot of people on
here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on here as long as they
might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me because I might've
just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this forum existed and kept
me on it.
I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent person would say,
"That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by pointing this "new post"
matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone and non-pheromone
discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones questions. I think the
place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really need for what I
have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than if I just
experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a code of
conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke around and
it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my posts are being
deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE every day, but I
haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...
That, of course, is when people started
getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential problems.
I
don't know. That's just my $1.25 (Isn't that the same price your mother charges for a--------well, you know the
rest, Tollbooth Willy).
Panco,
Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.
Wouldn't
the problem you described be greatly reduced if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created
the Open discussion and humor forums so people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we
would all use it as intended.
As for the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it
anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of
the time on all the forums, it will be a very boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody
just because some clique has decided they don't like that person is intolerable.
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 08:47 AM
Panco,
Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.
Wouldn't the problem you described be greatly reduced
if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created the Open discussion and humor forums so
people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we would all use it as intended.
As for
the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is
where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of the time on all the forums, it will be a very
boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody just because some clique has decided they
don't like that person is intolerable.
Well, the two solutions I'd think of for myself would be to post
a new thread every time I wanted to make a pun or friendly joke about something...or to be given the option of
choosing which forum I'd like my reply to be posted to when I submit a reply (in other words, reply to a post in
the phero forum but then choose an option that posts it in the Humor or Open Discussion areas because I know it's
off topic and I'd basically be doing the moderators' monotonous, tedious tasks of moving things from on topic to
off topic forums).
It's just a lot easier to hit "reply" than to switch forums, post a new thread, and name it,
"RE: Something funny about what _______ said about _____"
Or I could just quit being a smartass and shut up.
That could work, too... :o
franki
06-14-2004, 08:48 AM
Frankly, I don't really see what
the problem is. I agree the quality of the posts has gone down, but that's because we don't see many
(semi-)scientific debates on here anymore.
But I don't think that is because Pancho, Elana or I are making
frivolous posts... :rolleyes:
franki
06-14-2004, 08:59 AM
My Question: Where are the people
making informative posts about pheromones? All I read nowadays are ("stupid") newbie posts.. or reports from people
I can hardly take serious..
No wonder people are trying to have a little fun here and there, otherwise it would
get very boring..
Elana
06-14-2004, 09:11 AM
When someone comes on the forum and
asks a question, he is usually answered with a serious response. There is only a number of times you can tell
someone the difference between a drop and a dab. But for the most part people ask questions and get answers here.
oscar
06-14-2004, 09:45 AM
Pancho,
The
"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.
Oscar :)
oscar
06-14-2004, 09:51 AM
Elana,
The
entirety of my post above was not meant to be aimed solely at you, and I've amended it to clear up that possible
misinterpretation.
Oscar :)
Elana
06-14-2004, 09:59 AM
Peace, Oscar...I'll do the same
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:00 AM
Pancho,
The
"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.
Oscar
:)
I've noticed this...I think what I was saying is that I don't pay attention to it...maybe they should
break up the "new posts" area by section so it's more clear that you'd like for people to keep the type of posts
separate by different forums.
This would just be a technicality, though. I've gotten into the mentality with
the "new posts" option to treat all of the threads equally...like I can post whatever I want wherever I want. Maybe
keeping the forums distinct would keep their...distinctness...ummm...did I just say the same thing twice? :o What
I'm trying to say is mixing them up makes them prone to overlap. If you've noticed more irrelevant postings in
the phero area, maybe (I couldn't be sure) it's partly attributed to that.
My Idea:
New Posts
Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to get my best
friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"
Off Topic
"I am
Cool"
"Everybody Loves Elana"
"Friends Sucks"
"Memoirs of the Incredibly Intelligent"
"Friends Rules"
Women's Forum
"Why are guys so stupid? Part II"
"How do I use PCC to get a man?"
"Why are guys so
dumb?"
"How does AE/w Smell?"
"Why are guys so stupid? Part I"
It would keep your perspective that forums
are different and must be treated differently...but that's just from my perspective because of how I see the "New
Posts" option.
Bruce
06-14-2004, 10:07 AM
Folks,
Several
points:
1. Keep the feedback coming. I would like to come up with a long overdue policy statement. For the
most part I think the long-time folks "get it" very well already, but an official statement might help new folks
feel more secure. Anyway, now is the time to "bring it on"; call it an amnesty period or whatever. Nobody is going
to get banned for what they say in this thread, nor should anyone feel like they will get roasted by other members
in a PM for it either. So everybody, take a deep breath, blow out your 2 cents, and give the mods and I a little
time to formulate the "rules".
2. OK, that leads nicely into the fact that Oscar brought up. Like it or
not, the forum is indeed private. It is my living room. If someone comes into your home, starts jumping up and
down on the sofa shouting "(insert your name here) is an asshole", you are going to show him/her the door or call
the cops. On the other hand, it is not a prison. You are all guests in my home, and for various reasons, not
entirely commercial I LIKE having you here, UNLESS, you make things unpleasent for other people. I would rather
have 2 members who get along rather than 10 memebers, 8 of whom have formed a group of their own and decided for
reasons of their own that they want the other 2 burned at the stake.
3. There is a big difference between
throwing in a little "comic relief" and hijacking a serious thread. "Little" as in a single brief post.
Unfortunately, that often if not almost always leads to a long stream of banter that is very entertaining for those
folks who don't give a damn about the person (often a newbie) who started the thread and his/her interest in
pheromones or anyone else who comes here mainly to learn about pheromones. *That* is jumping up and down on my
sofa, and if my entertaining that sentiment makes me an asshole in your mind, then it is time for you to
leave.
4. As has been oft pointed out, the "Off Topic" area was created as an alternative to banning large
numbers of folks who come here primarily for reasons other than learning about pheromones or helping others learn
about them. If there is some technical problem with the current forum application that makes it difficult to tell
which forum is which, well, then we need to fix that. Wise ass comments "among friends" clearly have their place,
but not in the middle of a serious discussion about pheromones and certainly not in one discussing the furture of
the forum. I rarely if ever even look in the "Off Topic" area. It is an outlaw area in my mind. As long as it
doesn't serve as a base of operations for the destruction of the rest of the forum, knock yourself out. I do look
in the Humor section hoping to have a giggle and if I happen to be eating my lunch at the time and run into
something so disgusting/disturbing that I lose my appetite, it is going to get deleted. If you have a problem with
that, then, hey, just move on. The door is quite literaly over there. It is my home. I live here. I sleep here.
I take my meals here. Yada yada, you get the idea, but for some reason I don't think I have ever gotten an email
from a banned member who felt like I had the right to regulate the forum in any way.
Bruce
franki
06-14-2004, 10:20 AM
New
Posts
Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to
get my best friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"
This is
exactly the problem. The only posts we ever read on the pheromone forum are newbie posts. While helping out a newbie
every now and then is OK and can be fun, at this point in time it gets boring because there no interesting pheromone
threads anymore.. :(
Bruce
06-14-2004, 10:28 AM
Franki,
Who would have the
courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed
at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what
happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.
Bruce
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:35 AM
Franki,
Who
would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain
to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to
learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.
Bruce
Bruce has a point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit
it's been a long time, my thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking
to someone that "you can't be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is
actually what fueled my "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being
ridiculed.
Yeah, I'd have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.
franki
06-14-2004, 10:42 AM
You guys are probably right. I I
look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see: "Good Looks and
Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..
belgareth
06-14-2004, 10:47 AM
You guys are
probably right. I I look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see:
"Good Looks and Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..
Exactly
right and that's what we want to stop.
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 10:48 AM
Bruce has a
point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time, my
thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking to someone that "you can't
be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is actually what fueled my
"Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being ridiculed.
Yeah, I'd
have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.
I have an example to support the mods and
Bruce's claims even further with my "Memoirs" example. Now, even though it may be comparing apples and oranges
(pheros vs. non-pheros), but I expected to get a lot of negative feedback when I posted that stuff. Somehow,
though, no one did. However, an innocent joke by Elana led to comments by other people, which further led to
mocking...now, had I not had my rule of not responding to things, it may have led to an argument/insult exchange.
Imagine a newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he
got defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...
As much as I represent the antithesis of this argument because
of my banter, I would have to agree with Bruce and the moderators...so help me and my future forum activity.
franki
06-14-2004, 10:51 AM
Franki,
Who
would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain
to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to
learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.
Bruce Bruce, I like the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on
the philosophy behind their pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting)
pheromone forum, instead of a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where
one can easily find all news articles about phero's in the media.
Just some feedback from me..
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 11:00 AM
Bruce, I like
the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on the philosophy behind their
pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting) pheromone forum, instead of
a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where one can easily find all news
articles about phero's in the media.
Just some feedback from me..
Do the 'inventors' do 'field
tests'? If so, what were their results? Do they recommend dosages or combinations? That'd be cool to know.
Bruce
06-14-2004, 11:20 AM
Thanks for giving my points a good
looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones thread and
still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really meant to be
racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.
And hey, Franki and Pancho, those are a
couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly embaressing
one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question worthy of a
serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers of these
products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post than
tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying their
threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over this
one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.
As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular
rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.
Bruce
Gossamer_2701
06-14-2004, 11:36 AM
I know
that I haven't been here all that long... especially compared to many of you, but when I first found this board
this mob mentality... ridiculing and ignoring those that posted stupid or inane questions was already quite common
place. I had lurked for a few weeks reading the forums, getting to know how things and members 'worked' around
here. Not wanting to come off like a total dumbass, I spent most of my time on here doing my homework... reading all
the current posts, as well as reading through the archives which told me everything I needed to know before I ever
even applied mones for the first time. I totally understand that this place exists, because of Bruce and his great
business sense.... he created the forums to discuss mones... and help those less experienced learn how to use them
to their fullest advantage. Granted, it may get boring and seem quite mundane answering the same questions over and
over, but I also feel that its a small price to pay. I know I don't have many of the answers to the questions
asked, but I do step in and try to help whenever I possibly can. We all should, and we should consider it a
privilege to be a part of such an open and free forum!!!
That said..... I also find the mob mentality and
personal attacks unaccepable! Voicing ones opinion is fine... and when one persons views are so wrong that everyone
needs to voice their own opinions on just how wrong that one person is... well thats one thing... and the only time
it should be accepted. One group of members, acting like a little gang of playground thugs, ganging up on another
member just because one of the gang has a beef with them is unacceptable and shouln't be tollerated. And mean
spirited personal attacks should NEVER be tollerated... period!!!
I am probably just as guilty as Pancho with
my smartass jokes.... I find it more enjoyable to read these posts and the forum as a whole when I can smile and
laugh, and I try to bring that to my fellow members. I also know when to keep things serious and on topic.... I
personally learned a long time ago not to argue about two subjects.... politics and religion.... they are both
personal points of view and no matter how much you argue your point, it won't change mine... so I don't try to
change yours. But many threads have probably been hijacked because of one of my smarttass comments, and even though
that one comment was all I contributed to that thread, someones question or discussion probably didn't get answered
or discussed the way it should have.... for that I appologize. It was all in fun, and from now on I will pay closer
attention to where I post those kinds of things.
I hope we can all come to a happy medium, work out all the
little kinks, and move into a new age on the Love Scent Forums. I have met some pretty incredible people here
(probably the whole reason I've stayed on the forum after learning how to use my mones) and I hope to meet many
more now that Bruce has taken Love Scent to the next level.
Bruce, thank you for inviting me into your home, and
making me feel like one of the family.
DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the feedback, ash.
You and I disagree about the value of "just everyone dogpile on the "fool"/"bitch"/whatever, call them abusive
names, and/or take revenge behind their backs" approach. I don't think it's "lack of balls" as you say that keeps
me from participating in that Jerry Springer BS. If I think I need to get in someone's face I do it. I honestly try
to turn my reaction into helpful feedback for everyone if it seems to be a group issue; and be constructive,
whether or not I succeed. I prefer that approach and will continue it. I'm not going to make it my problem if you
don't understand it. My only responsibility there is to keep editing until I think the post is clear and makes
sense, and I do spend a lot of time editing my stuff before I burden others with it. I think it's possible to have
a forum without all that disrespect, that is still decidedly not PC. It used to be that way here, in
fact. I'll own up to being too defensive when someone disagrees in a way that I believe is attacking,
unconstructive, and irrational. I like respectful debate, and get unpleasant feelings when it's not. I work on that
fault, and am well aware of it. You took my post personally and got very defensive too, which doesn't suprise me.
It honestly wasn't aimed at you personally. But "if the shoe fits pick it up and wear it", as you apparently did.
I knew very well the kinds of responses I was going to get here, but felt I needed to make the post anyway.
That's as much of my balls as you get to enjoy right now, ash.
Bruce made an important distinction about "a
little bit of looseness and lightheartedness", which I support, versus thread hijacking, which is just
disrespectful.
I actually was only complaing about the disrespectful stuff, whether blunt or indirect. It
boggles my mind that someone could read that as wanting to squash harmless fun. I agree that if talk were always
about pheromones it would get boring. I don't see anyone being prevented from taking about whatever they want on
Bruce's forum if done sensibly. That doesn't mean hijacking just to fuck with somebody is OK.
JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 12:47 PM
Imagine a
newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he got
defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...
No, Pancho, that was NOT what was going on with Carlos.
While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to
death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the
blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big
bad schoolyard bullies.
Which brings me to the rest of my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then
this is going to be a very different kind of board than what I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found
personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not
picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already given here. I'm not even going to bother going
into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide what I will or won't read, what I will or
won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given moment.
The problem is that we're
travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic ability to determine what is or is not
offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an ordinary conversational flow. So, taking
keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they have done it?? Someone used the word
"schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".
You could be reactive, or proactive. Did it
ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of conversation you may not favor might be
to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some interesting experiments and studies and post
your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a
negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to annoy; take positive action intended to provide some
positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly
decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of
the forum that you probably didn't get because you were only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another
poor "innocent".)
I get what you're saying, Bruce. But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too
many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on,
because you already know he's a good guy when he sobers up a little.
DZorro
06-14-2004, 12:50 PM
Thanks for giving my
points a good looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones
thread and still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really
meant to be racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.
And hey, Franki and Pancho,
those are a couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly
embaressing one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question
worthy of a serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
and
"Where are the makers
of these products?"
Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post
than tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying
their threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over
this one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.
As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular
rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.
Bruce
I guess we should not forget that
at one point we all where newbies here.
So we should cut them a little slack, at the beginning i did not now much
about phermones, and lot's of the regulars here helped me a great lot, and i am still learning stuff here everyday.
As for bruce it statement i sure hope it will not end up like that for the newbies.
But it will defanantly
be more informative if we could get a report from the phermones makers it self, since these are the guys that
invented the phermones, i would also like a sort of a report about TE/m, since that was one of my first product here
i ever used, and since it's mostly used by newbies who first try phermones it would be benefitial for them
aswell.
DZorro,
DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 01:05 PM
No, Pancho,
that was NOT what was going on with Carlos. While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was
simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a
prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so
he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big bad schoolyard bullies.
Which brings me to the rest of
my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then this is going to be a very different kind of board than what
I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar
rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already
given here. I'm not even going to bother going into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide
what I will or won't read, what I will or won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given
moment.
The problem is that we're travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic
ability to determine what is or is not offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an
ordinary conversational flow. So, taking keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they
have done it?? Someone used the word "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".
You
could be reactive, or proactive. Did it ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of
conversation you may not favor might be to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some
interesting experiments and studies and post your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of
pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to
annoy; take positive action intended to provide some positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not
find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the
board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of the forum that you probably didn't get because you were
only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another poor "innocent".)
I get what you're saying, Bruce.
But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of
action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on, because you already know he's a good guy when he
sobers up a little.
If you have people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on
the role of schoolmarm.
If someone is PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod
know or call them on it, at least. No one is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your
own damn fault if it gets deleted. The schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before
she leaves for the day.
CptKipling
06-14-2004, 01:11 PM
I don't have much
new to add, but I just wanted to reiterate the importance of encouraging "interesting" pheromone
discussion. It was good to see the BDC people posting, I hope they haven't gone
too...
A lot of the stock newbie questions that get asked twice a
week can get boring to answer. I remember helping with the Cookbook which, even as a work in progress, helped a lot
of the newbies out. However, Nimbus has unfortunately left us, and the Cookbook is a bit outdated. Initially it was
intended to be a collection of mixing knowledge, but I really think we need a "Starters Guide" section, containing a
lot more of the stock newbie questions and start-up techniques etc. I started doing this when Nimbus resurfaced a
while ago, so it wouldn't be a huge job to knock out a basic version if the consensus was that it would help.
Anyway, the point that I was aiming at with the previous
paragraph (and missed entirely ;)) was that discussion would have a much better flow with a more obvious forum
etiquette. Many other forums have very strict rules, I don't think we need to go that far, despite some of the
hostility on here it's still a friendly place with a good group of people.
A note on the technical side of the forum:
-We need to have the search function fixed. We currently can't
search for two or three letter words, which as Sod's law would have it is most of the useful content on the forum
(SOE, TE etc.)
-We need a more obvious
link to the reference material. There is one in the newbie thread but it's a lot less obvious than the old forum's
link.
a.k.a.
06-14-2004, 01:31 PM
I can easily ignore stupid opinions
and mean spirited people; but hijacked threads are very frustrating. Sometimes I open up a thread with something to
say, but by the time I’ve scrolled through all the insipid banter I figure, “What’s the point?”
JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 01:42 PM
If you have
people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on the role of schoolmarm.
If someone is
PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod know or call them on it, at least. No one
is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your own damn fault if it gets deleted. The
schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before she leaves for the day.
I
didn't think the PM's were abusive. They possibly wouldn't even have seemed inappropriate to someone else. I
found it objectionable, as apparently did others. It WAS dealt with quite directly. And was quite efficient,
apparently. You just didn't like it that way, which is pretty much too bad at this point, since it's all been said
and done. You've missed the point that what appeared to be wrong to you might not have appeared so if you really
knew what was going on - unless you did know, and thought it was all o.k.?? Two messages got passed: 1) If you
screw around with people, they probably won't take very kindly to it; and 2) Message received, let's call an end
to the hostilities now. I don't think a schoolmarm is really required, and they usually take the summers off
anyway, don't they?
Bruce
06-14-2004, 02:00 PM
CK,
I will see about getting
those technical problems fixed.
Peachy,
From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the
pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind,
so fair play, but I review the deleted material personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think
I have ever seen a deleted post that I wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all
the "slicing and dicing" that goes on around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do
it", I personally wasted quite a bit of time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the
heck was being discussed (ie: the future of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and
his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school
marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of the options.
Your point about being more proactive is
well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner
core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on
and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a little proactivity yourself, but the point here is
to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people could conceivably hang out without need of a flak
jacket and helmet.
Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my
family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what? We don't keep coffee in our home either
(though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky we don't entertain drunks. I guess
that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?
Bruce
Pancho1188
06-14-2004, 02:13 PM
I didn't know about Carlos'
antics. I was just trying to think of an example of a newbie getting into a fight. Even if it was his fault, how
does that look to other potential members that a newbie got attacked? Yes, nobody knew the whole story but the
people involved, but I could see other strangers looking and saying, "Wow, that guy got butchered...I'm not
posting."
That being said, I apologize for the bad example. Next time, I'll think of a better one.
What, no cap for my name Doc? "ash"?
I've been diss'd. I'm deeply offended. HAHA, not really. I was offended by Metro's Reagan posts though. Not
personally offended but angry that he accused all those posting favorable comments about our Ex-Pres as being
"Brainwashed". And, IMHO, his reference to Stalin was wayy over the top as was his Cartoon post (under the
circumstances)but that's Metro and he has the right to say what he likes. I have a right to comment on it though
and that's the part you don't get. You didn't get it in the Terrorist Thread, the Michael Moore Thread or the
Reagan Thread. FREE SPEECH IS A TWO WAY STREET DOC!
This latest Thread of yours, following the Reagan Thread so
closely, led me to believe it was a continuation of your thought process from previous posts and I still believe it
was to a certain extant. After reading through ALL the replys to this Thread I can see now that there are bigger
issues being discussed. My Bad for not seeing the whole picture before but I don't read ALL the Threads here and
didn't realize that there was some "serious" bashing going on. I'm quite guilty of bashing on occasion. In the
very recent past every time I bash it seems to be followed by you admonishing me for speaking my mind and rising to
the defense of those that I've criticized even though their comments are, IMHO, totally indefensible. But that's
COOL Doc, you've got the right to say whatever you want to me. That's FREE SPEECH DOC and I'm very cool with
it.
Moving on to the "Bigger Issues". Respectfully directed at Bruce.
Way back last summer ******
deleted a reply I had made to a guy that had seriously offended me. It was my very first deletion and I got in touch
with ****** to find out why he had pulled my post and not the post that had offended me. We exchanged a few PM's
and the bottom line was he just didn't feel like it. Further probing by me through PM's with ******* reveled that
there was no set of "Rules or Guidelines" for the Mod's. Whatever they felt like pulling got pulled. It sounded a
bit like anarchy to me but as you pointed out it's your House Bruce. In one of your posts here you mention that
having an expanded set of Rules might not be a bad idea for Forum members. I agree. Unless things have already been
changed it would be nice if the Mod's had a set of rules to go by too.
Banning? How about a three
strikes and your out rule? And, would amnesty be possible for Deb? Her being banned is all my fault actually. She
got off to a bad start after reading some of my posts in the Terrorist T. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing Bruce and
Deb really is a very sweet person and totally repentant. She just had a very bad week is all.
Icons?
This may seem like a small thing but for me it's bigger than you might think. Many here already know that I'm a
little strange. Some of what I write can easily be taken the wrong way. Icons go along way to help me "Express" what
I'm really saying. The Icons on the new Forum SUCK!!!! They're seriously ugly and almost demonic looking, whereas
my little friends at the Old Forum were sweet and very expressive. A post by the Webmaster told of how he was
working for free. A statement that totally mystified me but whatever. I will personally pay him to change the Icons
here out for the old icons Bruce! I especially miss my little buddy *D*..:D ..*sigh* :( SEE WHAT I MEAN? Also, I
think the addition of a *puke* icon would be in very good taste along with an Old style ROFLMAO!
Sexyredhead
06-14-2004, 03:35 PM
Speaking of icons, I frequent
another forum that has a nice variety of emoticons. I'd be happy to PM you or the Webmaster the site, if you're
interested in checking them out. I don't know if it's possible to add emoticons, but if so, those would be some
nice ones to add. :)
If it's possible it would be nice to see the past several people at least that we've
given repuation to, because some of us don't pass out rep points as often as others and we tend to get frustrated
seeing that "you must pass more rep around" window. :o
I'm glad someone mentioned the reference material
link. I've been looking for it but haven't been able to find it. If it was displayed more prominently, it might
help newbies out as well as those of us who don't have perfect memories or are trying new products for the first
time.
Bruce
06-14-2004, 05:16 PM
Ash,
I am generally a sucker
for a banned member who wants another chance, but we exchanged a few emails and she finally went off in a huff.
Also, she was warned a couple of times about the same issue and each time promised to stop it, only to take it to a
new level. Carlos wants back on too you know. Survey female forum members and see how they would feel about
that.
The emoticons sound very do-able. SRH, PM Webmaster with the URL and I bet he'll fix us up with
that.
B
JustPeachy
06-14-2004, 05:22 PM
Peachy,
...
From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a
time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind, so fair play, but I review the deleted material
personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think I have ever seen a deleted post that I
wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all the "slicing and dicing" that goes on
around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do it", I personally wasted quite a bit of
time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the heck was being discussed (ie: the future
of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for
Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of
the options.
Your point about being more proactive is well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I
guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were
constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a
little proactivity yourself, but the point here is to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people
could conceivably hang out without need of a flak jacket and helmet.
Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep
any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what?
We don't keep coffee in our home either (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky
we don't entertain drunks. I guess that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?
Bruce
Actually, Bruce, I had no idea Carlos had gotten banned at all. I thought he had just taken a
giant hint (about the size of Cincinnatti) and buzzed off. I am surprised to hear you hadn't already considered
taking a proactive approach. I have had the impression that you, as you said earlier, aren't terribly inclined to
take the draconian approach as a first option.
In any case, it is certainly true that I have made a number of
drug and alcohol related cracks, even on this thread, as have others. Apparently, you have gotten some strange
impression that I would somehow approve (or even instigate?) a drunken brawl in my own home! To the contrary, this
would not blend well with either my athletic or my social pursuits in real life. The point was intended far more in
a "Kumbaya" vein than "Miss Manners" (Although, I do believe that even she, dear lady, would have agreed with my
example, however firmly she had planted toungue in cheek when doing so). I am genuinely sorry it came off otherwise.
I can see why you might not appreciate the schoomarm references, just as I felt the nearly inescapable lure of
zinging the writer of the schoolyard bully reference. Miss Peach blushes at her own lack of decorum. This peach has
thick skin almost everywhere, except where it doesn't.
Do you see where I am heading here? We can clean up the
language used, dispose of the declassé references, and make conciliatory gestures using all the
very best netiquette. But an edge is an edge, however phrased, and whether or not every reader is even capable of
discerning such. And that, rather than the manner of its deliverance, is the real problem at hand. It does no good
to jump to either the extreme of an unchecked holocaust or a button-down ghost of true debate. Ironically, it may
also not be such a good thing to take the middle of the road in some ways, unless we are very clear as to whether
the matter is really one of mere style or of actual substance. Your call, certainly. I would only urge you to
consider this thought as you formulate your forthcoming policies.
Thanks for your reply Bruce! Thanks
for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread I think and I can't
tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very positive effect on
me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM from one of the
truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from the Old Forum*
DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 09:53 PM
For
what it's worth on "non-PC debating", in case someone is interested in the topic, which is I think relevant:
The thread where Bobby from BDC first posted was a good example where debate happened without lines being crossed.
Bobby's presence was really helpful to folks. I'm glad that conversation happened, even though not everyone agreed
with me.
I personally have spent a lot of time, over 15 years, in academia, constantly surrounded by debates
and debaters. I love good debates and will take on all comers quite comfortably if it's something I've thought a
lot about. But there's a difference between debating and street brawling, or bathroom graffiti. Remember the show,
Politically Incorrect, with Bill Maher? That was another example where people said controversial things and
disagreed without verbal street brawling or disrespect (mostly). They kidded each other in off color ways. No harm,
no foul.
But one thing I learned from academia is, if you're going to be really non-PC, (like Larry Bird
saying the NBA needs more white people, or Rasheed saying African-Americans are exploited in the NBA) you have to be
prepared to defend your position in a well thought out, rational way, all the way to the core; because people are
going to come at you hard and fast. Just calling them names; making glib snappy comebacks; or attacking personally
doesn't work in your favor. You will look like an idiot, frankly. They (those really good debater types) will pull
the pillars out from under where you thought you stood.
If I knowingly have stated an opinion that is counter
to the "prevailing view", I have already implicitly set the stage for a possible debate, unless I made clear that I
only wanted to give a tentative, intuitive, or feeling-based opinion. And if I contine to push my opinion, or
attempt to debate, it will be completely freaking irrelevant to say in my own defense, "well everyone's
entitled to an opinion in our free country." Becase you're not just expressing your opinion in that case,
you're also saying or at least implying it is a valid and sound opinion, and that it is moreso than someone
else's. Otherwise you would just respectfully state it, leave it at being just your opinion, be clear about that,
and then spend the rest of your time showing respect to others' opinions. So you're already coming off as
making no sense saying that-- the worst possible defeat for a debater, by all standards.
No one
will arrest you. That's exactly how far "I have a right to my opinion in this free country" gets you in a
debate. But thoughtful folks won't respect you intellectually or modify their beliefs (or necessarily
keep you as a member in their forum). Who cares about that? Well, aside from wanting to earn intellectual
respect, if you enter into actual debate, you are implicitly agreeing to modify your own beliefs if the
other person wins deservedly, or "demonstrates rational superiority," as they say. (It's like science and
falsifiability.) Otherwise you wouldn't be making arguments at all. Someone who doesn't demonstrate that spirit
(e.g., by finding another's point truly interesting, or acknowledging various changes in their position. Both
techniques were well demonstrated by Bobby in that thread.) comes off as a hypocrite, time-waster, masturbater, and
fool, frankly. They can fairly expect to be treated as if they are coming off in that way -- with personal
respect, of course.
The good news is that knowing all this makes one a better debater. Because even if one
can't see the need to modify his or her thinking, one can always use their humility to say "I need to think about
that more;" or say that there are "unanswered questions", or "unclear" places, or "this is the part I still don't
understand" for example; without looking at all foolish, even if they aren't the best debaters. Another
option is to take Maher's approach and kid people harmlessly. Still another that works just fine is to just state
it's an opinion and leave it at that, though this feels limiting for many folks. A fourth option, then, is to work
on one's skills. Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone has to debate skillfully. I am sharing that this is what I
learned happens, through having been "beat up" in various debates. The above can be taken as "debate survival
tips".
If I state a controversial opinion, then, I know to expect people to come at me tenaciously, pointing out
potential problems with my rational thinking, all the way to the core. I am not going to think they are
disrespecting my rights to free speech, or think I don't have such rights in their eyes. However, if they try to
brawl instead, spout graffiti, or show disrespect, they have instead lost, if I have used my debate survival
skills.
DrSmellThis
06-14-2004, 10:49 PM
Thanks for your
reply Bruce! Thanks for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread
I think and I can't tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very
positive effect on me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM
from one of the truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from
the Old Forum*:eek: :)
....
Watcher
06-14-2004, 10:50 PM
This thread has been very
informative - a user agreement sounds like a good idea - set out what and will not be accepted etc.
People
should make greater use of the reputation aspects of the forum - keeping it on topic in the pheromone discussion
area is a good idea and all off topic in off topic.
I have been on and off recently - not as much as i used
to be but being here since 2000 or 2001 i think the longer term members have an idea of what is good and what is
bad.
DrSmellThis
06-15-2004, 01:29 AM
BTW, I'd like to thank Pancho
for bumping some of his excellent posts.
InternationalPlayboy
07-01-2004, 11:28 AM
Wow. I read mainly
the Pheromone Discussions thread, so I didn't know there was so much controversy going on. I just noticed that
several frequent posters had been banned and was trying to find out what happened.
The first forum I ever
frequented was the Deepak Chopra forum hosted by Random House. I found it around 1999 and became a regular
participant. I loved the anarchy about the place. Anything and everything was discussed, there were no moderators.
It was great... for a few months. Then a battle of egos started. Interesting when part of Eastern philosophy
is to rid yourself of your ego. There was one person who I will call "the Messiah," as he has had some sort of
"awakening" and first went to Chopra's forum to discuss it as he thought he was losing his mind.
The other
instigator was someone I'll call "the Cynic." This guy took a deep loathing to the Messiah, and started to flame
him every time he posted. By the time the USA was gearing up for war with Iraq, the Messiah, who is a Brit, started
posting anti war/Bush stuff. The Cynic would retaliate with just posting extremely high resolution photos and cut
and paste text from other forums, making it impossible for anyone to read it as it took too long to load.
A
third participant, whom I'll refer to as "the Vagabond," would echo the Messiah's opinions, which also brought the
Cynic's wrath upon him and was treated with the same abuse that the Messiah was.
When the Cynic first came
onto the scene, one woman who was offended, created a private chatroom with Spiritweb as a safe place to play. I was
a member of this group, along with the Messiah and the Vagabond. Spiritweb eventually dropped their chatroom
function so the Vagabond started a private chat area on his website.
Well, I got blasted at the private
chatroom for telling the Messiah and the Vagabond at Chopra's that they were just as guilty as the Cynic for
bringing Chopra's forum down. They knew if they posted anything political on the forum, the Cynic would retaliate
with garbage, rendering the forum usless for everyone. Yet they would continue to do so. Instead of seeing it as the
pissing match it was, they were comparing their web presence to marching to free Nelson Mandela.
The Messiah
and Vagabond and a few supporters contacted Random House about the Cynic's abuse, which ended up with the forum
closing, to be replaced with a (supposedly) moderated forum. The flaming continued for a bit, until the Cynic
finally got banned. But the new place is just a shell of what once was. There is virtually no discussion on Deepak
Chopra and his works there anymore. It's still mainly the Messiah's critisim of the U.S., it's governors and
it's policies.
I no longer participate there. I go back occasionally to look, but just don't feel like
inputing there anymore. After being dogpiled on at the Vagabond's chatroom, I lost all urge to post there too, and
cut my visits down to once a week, then once a month, then to every few months when I remembered the place. It
turned into the Messiah fan club. Finally, sometime around last Thanksgiving, I found that they had changed the
password, locking me out.
A friend from the Chopra and Spiritweb sites told me about the Straight Dope
Message Board, and I got hooked on that. It's moderated, something I thought I wouldn't like, but it turned out I
did. It kept the Cynic, Vagabond, and Messiah types away. Trouble with that board is that there is so much to read
there I waste too much time. They also recently went to a fee based membership, so I think they are going to lose a
lot of good input. I did sign up as a "charter member" as I thought $5/year was a lot better that the regular price
of around $20.
I had peeked into this forum a couple of times but didn't participate until I bought WAGG
through a Wacky Wednesday special. With all the new products in the last few months, I've since become obsessed
with mones and enjoy the forum here. Though I still like the anarchy of the Internet, I appreciate the moderators
here and the job they do. This a great place. I particularly like the fact that Bruce, JVK and the guys from BDC
concepts are posting here.
I like this place and Bruce has every right to run it the way he feel it should
be run. After all, he is using his own money to keep it running. It's not like we pay to post here.
I can
remember a poster at the second incarnation of the Chopra forum threatening to sue because they blocked his
cartoonish picture of President Bush. He claimed that the moderators were supressing his freedom of speech. He could
not see the logic when I pointed out that Crown Publishing was hosting the site and we had to play by their rules.
It was still a free speech issue to him.
Now I'm an anarchist at heart, but I believe there is a personal
responsability to individual rights that goes along with anarchy. There should be no laws, other than laws against
initiatory force against others. In other words, I believe in your right to swing your arms around wildly, but that
right ends when your fist comes in contact with my nose.
Looks like some here made contact with the forum's
nose.
Anyway, I hope I made some sense in this rambling post. I just wanted to relate my bad experiences with
other forums and to support Bruce and the moderators' decisions to run this place as they see fit to do so.
DrSmellThis
07-02-2004, 01:57 AM
Nice anecdote, IP.
For
"whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here again, with quality
posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't think I'm imagining
things. :think:
My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore the Phero Forum to
its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed, at present I no
longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy just seems very
different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.
Peace, Love and Kumbaya! :drunk:
belgareth
07-02-2004, 03:54 AM
Nice
anecdote, IP.
For "whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here
again, with quality posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't
think I'm imagining things. :think:
My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore
the Phero Forum to its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed,
at present I no longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy
just seems very different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.
Peace, Love and Kumbaya!
:drunk:
I'll second that. It's surprising what a few bad actors can do to mess up something basically
good. Thanks to all of you who have started posting great stuff on the forum.
Bruce
07-02-2004, 05:44 AM
Doc and other fellow forum
folks,
I concur. It was a tough decision, but honest to God feel I had no alternative. Use whatever
metaphor you want, it wasn't exactly a fun job and there was nobody running out of his house to spread rose petals
at my feet, but the science crowd is returning from exhile and the power vaccuum is gradualy filling. Once again, I
myself feel comfortable posting without fear of being flamed by the "the cartel". I can walk around with my head up
in my own home. I'm getting my forum back and my life as well. Thank you all very much!
Gang, I was a
little nervous when I saw this thread reactivate. Although, I am glad to see what did get posted, I am going to
close the thread down now. I just want to move on and forget the past; rebuild the forum into the peaceful
intelligent home that it once was. I still intend to post some sort of "rules" as has been requested. In the mean
time how about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Maybe that can get us by in the mean time. If
you really feel like you have to say something negative, send it to me privately. Make it thoughtful and I will
respond as best I can.
Love, hugs, kisses, beads, bells, incense, Hari Krsna and praise the Lord,
Bruce
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