Michael Moore Wins Top Honors... [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

BigGulp

05-23-2004, 12:26 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

An

interesting philosophical question: At what point is a good citizen\'s quiet support of a controversial

president\'s foreign policies during an extended wartime no longer obligatory from one\'s patriotic duty? Is it

never?

<hr /></blockquote>

Huh?

If I understand your question I don\'t

think there has ever been a moral (for lack of a better word) or philosophical obligation to support a President (in

the US) during a time of war. There is a legal obligation in the form of a draft and, depending on the War, the risk

of social chastisement if you find your views are too far outside of the mainstream as happened to Lucky Lindy after

the start of WWII. As for being a Patriot, I don\'t see those that are against the war or Bush as being any less

patriotic than those that are for the war and the country seems almost evenly divided on the issue.

I don\'t

see Moore as a Leftist Patriot though. I see him as a Carpet Bagging propagandist, extraordinarily adept at

extracting serious $ from those that like to feed their minds with half truths and whole lies. Stalin referred to

this group of people as \"his useful idiots\". In his movie, Moore\'s bottom line is that Bush was the

mastermind behind 911. Millions will believe it to be true after seeing the movie. I don\'t see where that is

going to help prevent NY, CH or LA from getting hit with a dirty bomb. Unless, of course, Bush really was behind

911 and his next targets are NY, CH and LA. In which case we should get him out of office right now.

DrSmellThis

05-23-2004, 01:32 AM

You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are

seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political

critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will

receive the criticism that he is making a \"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea:

\"Criticising the president is tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\",

according to such an \"ethic\".

So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When

will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy

that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational

criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,

you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government

gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are

now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke

icons to everybody\"! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif~ Will this do as puke icon,

BTW?

Open societies are not about some ficticious absence of \"bad things\" (e.g., corrupt politicians and

soldiers); but rather how those open societies handle their bad things.

I will be curious to finally see the

movie and find out if that really is Moore\'s intended point (i.e., Bush simply \"masterminding 9/11\"), per

se. I think Moore is selling himself short if it indeed is, as there are other telling points to be made from

all the raw material (e.g., Bush\'s former ties to the Bin Laden family) I heard went into the documentary. He

doesn\'t need to make that limited, and \"black and white\", of a conclusion. But I agree with you that, if

it was \"masterminded\" that way, Bush should be immediately removed from office; and I would add, thrown in

prison for murder and treason, as per the transparent openness and impartiality of the American judicial system at

its best.

CJ01

05-23-2004, 03:21 AM

Pretty

cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a `normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury

consisted mainly of americans.

The one criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything

about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame imo.

CJ

CJ01

05-23-2004, 03:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

<hr

/></blockquote> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

franki

05-23-2004, 03:35 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pretty cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a

`normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury consisted mainly of americans.

The one

criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame

imo.

CJ

<hr /></blockquote>

What I heard was that you can hardly call it a

\"documentary\", and that it is rather propaganda for Moore\'s conspiracy theories..

CJ01

05-23-2004, 03:43 AM

Well I

can´t say but either way it´s not a normal movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a

good film and we have to wait till it comes out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets

now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

metroman

05-23-2004, 09:18 AM

Dont worry America! Go back to your Oprah your Dr Phil, Friends & Frasier...The official story of 9/11 as

promulgated by big corporate media, CNN, Fox, etc is just as they it is. Dont you go believing those radical nut

case conspiracy theorists like Michael Moore or David Icke... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Elana

05-23-2004, 09:36 AM

Michael Moore is a lizard too? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

BigGulp

05-23-2004, 09:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well I can´t say but either way it´s not a normal

movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a good film and we have to wait till it comes

out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets now

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

The movie

will be seen here CJ. We aren\'t a totalitarian state yet. I don\'t see that happening until shortly after

Hillary is elected in 2008.

CJ01

05-23-2004, 10:23 AM

Are you

sure you´re gonna get to see it? When exactly?

JustPeachy

05-23-2004, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

<hr /></blockquote> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

Quite correct, though I\'m not sure \"frog\" was entirely derisive. It

was applied to allies in WWII. The modern term appears to be \"Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey\". Too bad, really,

as I understand the French people are not generally in much agreement with the current government (this view gained

from Euro friends and a Parisian in a particular). Seems \"their\" corporate propaganda and \"ours\" are in

opposition these days...and if you can truly sort out all the multinationals, you\'re doing better than I

am.

As to supporting the President - no, there\'s no moral requirement to support him in particular. There is,

however a moral requirement to support fellow citizens in harm\'s way, whether you approve their situation or not.

Were it not so, there would probably be no need for puke icons.

CJ01

05-23-2004, 10:36 AM

You´re

right, the french aren´t happy with their government and neither are the germans with theirs but for internal

reasons and not for the reasons americans hate them. The british are p*ssed off with Blair too and so on...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BigGulp

05-23-2004, 11:54 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m

glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as

some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting

our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will receive the criticism that he is making a

\"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea: \"Criticising the president is

tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\", according to such an \"ethic\".

<hr /></blockquote>

The \"Republicans in Congress\", and others that

criticize the protesters, have just as much right to their criticisms as those who are protesting against the

President and the war. I don\'t see anybody being thrown in jail for speaking their mind. I hear a lot of people

on the left whining about their voices being stifled but if their voices were really being stifled I wouldn\'t be

able to hear them whine. The New Yorker authors\'s article was published; yes? As are hundreds of other articles

being published every day criticizing the President; so where\'s the problem? Seems to me that freedom of speech

is alive and well in the US of A on both sides. As for Moore, I have as much right to criticize him for making a

\"Perfect Propaganda film\" as he has the right to make and SELL his film. When I criticize Moore or Clinton or

Bush I should expect to get some flames in return. If my arguments are valid maybe I\'ll change some minds. If

they\'re not, maybe somebody will change my mind.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When

will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy

that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational

criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,

you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government

gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are

now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke

icons to everybody\"! ~ Will this do as puke icon, BTW?

<hr /></blockquote>

\"When the most brutal rational criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture,

due to accessibility of information or whatever, you\'ve achieved something special! \" This is happening

right now all over the country Doc. Tune into Seattle\'s KIRO Radio station at 9:PM tonight and listen to Erin

Hart\'s program or Mike Webb\'s 9:PM program week nights. \"Brutal\" doesn\'t even come close to describing

the animas, vitriol and pure hatred of the Bush administration expressed by the hosts and callers on these programs.

Free speech and descent IS alive and well in Seattle, San Fran., NY and Portland too. Just go through your AM radio

dial and you\'ll find it. You don\'t have to look very hard.

As for other countries relating to

Democracy....that\'s a scary thought. As Churchill once said; \"Democracy is the worst form of government there

is. Except for every other form of government.\". Democracy is not a pretty thing to watch. By nature Democracy it

is brutal because by nature people are brutal. Read some history about the founding of the USA, the writing of the

Constitution and the forming of our Nation. What an ugly mess. Read a history of what Abraham Lincoln went through

during the Civil War. News Papers in the North as well as the South were openly calling for his

assassination. Lincoln new he would be killed before his term ended but he carried on with what he believed

in. Politics in the United States has never been pretty. NEVER.

I guess the point I\'m trying to make is

that as bad as things look right now they aren\'t even close to as bad as they\'ve been at times throughout our

history. I don\'t worry about us as a people. Left and Right will continue to piss on each other just like

we\'ve always done. I worry about the Dirty bombs though and I\'m always concerned about the Lizard People.

The /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif~ will have to do for now and I must leave and see if

I can\'t create more chaos with my last two drops of JDM and...dare I put 4 sprays of Chikara on today?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

DrSmellThis

05-23-2004, 02:02 PM

Some good points, BG. Dissent is certainly alive, anyway. On the other hand, so is information control, in many

ways. There are those in congress that sort of call for people\'s heads who express such dissent, rather than just

disagree. I haven\'t personally heard that Moore\'s film is BS, but that would be a shame. Good heretical

information is still challenging to come by.

BigGulp

05-23-2004, 02:37 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Are you sure you´re gonna get to see it? When

exactly?

<hr /></blockquote>

I would think it will take about the same amount of

time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through the system and out to the Theaters

here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood scene. I think it\'s safe to say

Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the \"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like

Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves Moore and the way Bush is

presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater near you\".

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frogs = French? Never

heard that one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It´s an

old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...

<hr /></blockquote>

As you already know CJ, I\'m not a very politically correct person. Screw that. That

doesn\'t mean I\'m an A-hole. I just say what\'s on my mind. I\'m the same in the real world too. I\'m not

without sensitivity and compassion though. There are words that aren\'t in my vocabulary. The \"C\" word when

referring to a woman. The \"N\" word when referring to a Black person. Etc., etc., on down the line. I don\'t

see anything particularly offensive in the term \"frog\". The French have been called a lot worse by some of the

greatest political, military and social minds history can offer up. When I use a term like that I\'m referring to

a government and not to a people. I\'m sure the French are wonderful people. I\'d never have sex with a French

women though. Having owned a French car in my past I\'m sure I wouldn\'t be able cope with all the extra

maintenance. I\'m very fond of English Girls though. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

franki

05-23-2004, 02:40 PM

Post deleted by Bruce

BigGulp

05-23-2004, 03:37 PM

oops! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

CJ01

05-24-2004, 03:45 AM

Post deleted by CJ01

metroman

05-24-2004, 03:54 AM

Is that what the woman who was fired from her job for photographing the coffins to show the real toll of Iraq vs

the sanitized version brought to you by the propaganda corp embedded reporters doing; exercising her right to free

speech? Is that what the American people were doing in Nov of 2000 when the majority of people voting in this

country decided that Al Gore should be leading the government vs having the election stolen by the military junta US

Supreme Court; exercising their rights to participate in a democracy?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

EXIT63

05-24-2004, 05:07 AM

All

this from a man who believes in lizard people.

CJ01

05-24-2004, 06:47 AM

It´s

okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though

<hr /></blockquote> Not sure I

would either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,

military and social minds history can offer up.

<hr /></blockquote> For instance, can you

name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

CJ01

05-24-2004, 06:49 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you sure you´re

gonna get to see it? When exactly?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would think it

will take about the same amount of time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through

the system and out to the Theaters here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood

scene. I think it\'s safe to say Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the

\"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves

Moore and the way Bush is presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater

near you\".

<hr /></blockquote> So you didn´t hear about Moores problems to get the

film shown then?

BigGulp

05-24-2004, 08:27 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It´s okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of

those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though

<hr /></blockquote> Not sure I

would either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,

military and social minds history can offer up.

<hr /></blockquote> For instance, can you

name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

Frederick The Great, Rommel, Patton, Ben Franklin, Eisenhower,

Churchill. Forgive my spelling on those names. It\'s a pretty long list actually. Those are just a few that come

to mind right now as I getting ready for the day. De Gaul was a HUGE thorn in the side of the Allies during WWII

but you can\'t fault the French people for that.

Moore\'s alleged problem with distributing his film here is

a total invention by him to help promote the film and to make the USA look like an evil monster. Our government

isn\'t going to stop the film from being seen. They can\'t. The USA is still a free country. The distribution

outlets for the films shown in the USA are all privately owned by the Hollywood crowd. Again, that\'s why Gibson

had such a hard time with the \"Passion\".

CJ01

05-24-2004, 08:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Our government isn\'t going to stop the film from

being seen

<hr /></blockquote> That´s not what´s being said actually. I don´t think USA

is very free to be honest but that´s another subject perhaps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What I heard was that it´s not the government itself but rather some powerful friends (in the film industry)who

don´t want this film out especially not before the elections.
I am ken to see whether or not Bush will get elected

this time round or if he loses and just refuse to move out of the White House and carry on squating in there

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BigGulp

05-24-2004, 08:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Is that what the woman who was fired from her job

for photographing the coffins to show the real toll of Iraq vs the sanitized version brought to you by the

propaganda corp embedded reporters doing; exercising her right to free speech? Is that what the American people

were doing in Nov of 2000 when the majority of people voting in this country decided that Al Gore should be leading

the government vs having the election stolen by the military junta US Supreme Court; exercising their rights to

participate in a democracy? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

If the American people hadn\'t been given the sanitized version of ALL that went on during

WWII, Franki and CJ would be Goose Steppin right now and Europe would be in total darkness.

As for the Election

of 2000, I for one like the Electoral College system although I understand how the concept is a little too

complicated for some to grasp.

\"military junta US Supreme Court\". Can you send me some of whatever

it is you bin smokin? PLEEEEEEEEEEESE.

CJ01

05-24-2004, 08:43 AM

Pancho1188

05-24-2004, 08:49 AM

The Electoral College was created by the founding fathers because they realized that the average Joe was

too...\"uninformed\"...to make an educated decision on who was to become president.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BigGulp

05-24-2004, 08:53 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Our government isn\'t going to stop the film from being seen

<hr

/></blockquote> That´s not what´s being said actually. I don´t think USA is very free to be

honest but that´s another subject perhaps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif What I heard was that

it´s not the government itself but rather some powerful friends (in the film industry)who don´t want this film out

especially not before the elections.
I am ken to see whether or not Bush will get elected this time round or if he

loses and just refuse to move out of the White House and carry on squating in there

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

The hatred of

Bush by Hollywood and the promise of big Box Office $ will assure that the film will be seen in the USA. I don\'t

think it will be a big hit at the Theaters though.

I don\'t see Kerry winning the election but that can change

in a hurry. The election is still a long way off. Lots of talk from the\"Dark Side\" about another big terrorist

event happening just before the election. A very big event. What\'s that quote about living in interesting times?

CJ01

05-24-2004, 08:56 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
the average Joe was too...\"uninformed\"...to

make an educated decision on who was to become president.

<hr /></blockquote> I think

that´s true somehow /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Maybe that´s why Thatcher remained in

office so bloody long ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif And maybe that´s why so many people in

germany voted for the morons again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pancho1188

05-24-2004, 09:03 AM

Mtnjim

05-24-2004, 09:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The Electoral College was created by the founding

fathers because they realized that the average Joe was too...\"uninformed\"...to make an educated decision on who

was to become president. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Here I always thought it was a distance/communications thing.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Pancho1188

05-24-2004, 10:17 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The Electoral College was created by the founding fathers because they

realized that the average Joe was too...\"uninformed\"...to make an educated decision on who was to become

president. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Here I always thought it was a distance/communications thing.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Well,

that\'s a reason why people were uninformed. Yes, it would\'ve taken months to gather all of the votes and

count a winner, plus the literacy rates were low...

metroman

05-24-2004, 03:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All this from a man who believes in lizard people.

<hr /></blockquote>

And what do you believe in? Christ, Mohammed, Jehovah, Buddah???

Makes about as much sense... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

metroman

05-24-2004, 03:47 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If the American people hadn\'t been given the

sanitized version of ALL that went on during WWII, Franki and CJ would be Goose Steppin right now and Europe would

be in total darkness

<hr /></blockquote>

So The Ends Justify the Means ...Who

said that? Was it Marx in the Communist Manifesto?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
As for the Election of 2000, I for one like the Electoral College system although I understand how the concept

is a little too complicated for some to grasp.

<hr /></blockquote>

Its not

complicated...it\'s easy...its called how to make everyone believe they participate in a democracy when in fact

the country is actually run by powerful elites & corporations who could care less what the average citizen

thinks.

JustPeachy

05-24-2004, 04:00 PM

Well, Metro, part of the problem is that people DO believe they are participating in a democracy, when in fact they

live in a republic.

Interestingly enough, although communications have improved, literacy rates haven\'t

changed a whole lot since back then, and considerably less since about 1870 - when the federal government stepped in

and started mandating curriculum the public schools. I found that little factoid rather shocking at first

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, but the more I thought about it...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

EXIT63

05-24-2004, 05:48 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All this from a man who believes in lizard people.

<hr

/></blockquote>

And what do you believe in? Christ, Mohammed, Jehovah, Buddah??? Makes

about as much sense... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Santa Claus

BigGulp

05-24-2004, 08:37 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If the American people hadn\'t been given the sanitized version of ALL

that went on during WWII, Franki and CJ would be Goose Steppin right now and Europe would be in total darkness.

<hr /></blockquote> I didn´t get that sorry

<hr /></blockquote>

If the American people had been shown the \"real battle and after battle\" film footage of

WWII, during WWII, and been told the truth about just how brutal the combat was, especially in East Asia, the

anti-war movement would have grown in the USA and we would have pulled out without winning WWII. Just like we did

in Viet Nam. That would have left Stalin and Hitler to bang away at each other until they reached an agreement on

how to divide things up. GB would have been totally defeated and occupied by the Nazis. Who knows what Europe and

Eastern Europe would look like now if that had happened. Let alone East Asia. The \"pro-war\", US

government/Lizard people sponsored PROPAGANDA MACHINE during WWII, in the USA, was incredible. It shaped and formed

public opinion and kept it focused and concentrated on WINNING the war. To say they were controlled would be a

stretch but the news media, publications media and film media were all heavily influenced by the Government/Lizard

people so that they would all be telling the same \"Pro War\"/Lizard people story. Take a look at the American

films made during WWII. Their theme and content was not an accident. It was all very seriously orchestrated by the

Lizard people..... I mean Government/Lizard people.....I mean Government. Whew!

I hope that answers your Q CJ.

Metro. Ask Franki and CJ if the end justified the means in WWII.

Metro. I got to tell you man. Lizards have

such tiny primitive brains. I have to assume that the ones that are *really running things* have a little larger

brain than your run of the mill, ordinary, everyday lizard. But Dude, you ain\'t there yet.

Panch, you ain\'t

there yet either. Read a book man. Read a bunch of books. It\'s just sad.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Pancho1188

05-25-2004, 04:28 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Panch, you ain\'t there yet either. Read a book

man. Read a bunch of books. It\'s just sad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

You know, I like how everyone labels what I say as \"sad\". Do you know

what\'s sad? People who take everything the media tells them and believes it. You know that the Spanish-American

War was started because the media made things look worse than they were? Yes, I know history. History tells me

that people will tilt stories in whatever way they can to make their case.

You think my hypothetical was so

\"not there yet\"? Do you know the first thing I heard come out of people\'s mouths after 9/11? \"Bomb them

all. Just get rid of all of them.\" How far-fetched is that, really? Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and we took a

nuclear missle and shoved it up their asses. What do you think would\'ve happened if another country hit home,

huh? Is that so inconceivable?

Yes, that is sad. Very sad.

In case you forgot, there are many ways to see

the world...not just one. If thinking differently and breaking society\'s assumptions is sad, then I\'m proud

to be the saddest mother to ever live.

metroman

05-25-2004, 04:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All this from

a man who believes in lizard people.

<hr /></blockquote>

And what do you believe in?

Christ, Mohammed, Jehovah, Buddah??? Makes about as much sense...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Santa Claus

<hr /></blockquote>

Might as well throw in the Easter Bunny. See...I knew you were

Christian... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

05-25-2004, 05:26 AM

Pancho1188

05-25-2004, 05:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All this from

a man who believes in lizard people.

<hr /></blockquote>

And what do you believe in?

Christ, Mohammed, Jehovah, Buddah??? Makes about as much sense...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

The Taco

Bell dog

<hr /></blockquote>

Yo quiero Taco Bell.
I think I need a bigger box.
I

think I need a bigger box.
I think I need a bigger box.
I think I need a bigger box.
I think I need a bigger

box.
I think I need a bigger box.
Yo quiero Taco Bell.

BigGulp

05-25-2004, 08:12 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Panch, you ain\'t there yet either. Read a book man. Read a bunch of

books. It\'s just sad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

You know, I like how everyone labels what I say as \"sad\". Do you know what\'s sad?

People who take everything the media tells them and believes it. You know that the Spanish-American War was started

because the media made things look worse than they were? Yes, I know history. History tells me that people will

tilt stories in whatever way they can to make their case.

You think my hypothetical was so \"not there yet\"?

Do you know the first thing I heard come out of people\'s mouths after 9/11? \"Bomb them all. Just get rid of

all of them.\" How far-fetched is that, really? Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and we took a nuclear missle and

shoved it up their asses. What do you think would\'ve happened if another country hit home, huh? Is that so

inconceivable?

Yes, that is sad. Very sad.

In case you forgot, there are many ways to see the world...not

just one. If thinking differently and breaking society\'s assumptions is sad, then I\'m proud to be the

saddest mother to ever live .

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s good that you

have a goal Panch.

Pancho1188

05-25-2004, 08:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

It\'s good that you have a goal Panch.

<hr /></blockquote>

I thought so, too.

CJ01

05-25-2004, 10:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
----------

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If the American people hadn\'t been

given the sanitized version of ALL that went on during WWII, Franki and CJ would be Goose Steppin right now and

Europe would be in total darkness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn´t get that sorry

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the American

people had been shown the \"real battle and after battle\" film footage of WWII, during WWII, and been told the

truth about just how brutal the combat was, especially in East Asia, the anti-war movement would have grown in the

USA and we would have pulled out without winning WWII.

<hr /></blockquote> okay thanks

for elaborating. I suppose that´s true in a way. I´m sure it´s true also that if the majority of the population

had known what the Nazis were really doing there would have been way more resistance in Germany, and other countries

right from the start.
However I still don´t get why it took the americans so long to get their bums across the

atlantic. They knew what was happening but that´s a whole different complex issue I guess.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It was all very seriously orchestrated by the

Lizard people..... I mean Government/Lizard people.....

<hr /></blockquote> isn´t

everything? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bottle

05-25-2004, 11:08 AM

it

was an atom bomb not a nuke...and it was used to cut short a war that would continue to wage until both countries

where ruined.

BTW this tech (atom bomb) along with some essential raw materials to construct the bombs

was stolen from a German U boat near the end of WWII in Europe.*** The U boat was carrying the plans from Germany to

Japan. If it had reached Japan then NY would of been where those Atom Bombs would of been landing.

I wont

go into the conspiracies surrounding the Pearl Harbour bombing.

and I know it aint PC...but Pearl Harbour

was tactical genius. Its only luck that America didnt lose all its fleet ( or is it

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif - did the lizards know what was up )

***near the end of

WWII, the U boat set sail before the End...but was captured after the end of the War, the ship\'s crew had no idea

the War had ended and didnt know about the precious cargo it carried. The U boat was sent with the plans cos the

Germans new the end was near...and felt the plans would better serve the Japanese to complete the designs on the

first Atom Bomb. The Americans Intel new of this very important ship\'s journey...and sent a fleet out to

intercept this U Boat.

very dramatic huh

-------------------------------------------
anyone seen

DAS BOOT, great sound track isnt it

Pancho1188

05-25-2004, 11:48 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
it was an atom bomb not a nuke...and it was used to

cut short a war that would continue to wage until both countries where ruined.

BTW this tech (atom bomb) along

with some essential raw materials to construct the bombs was stolen from a German U boat near the end of WWII in

Europe.*** The U boat was carrying the plans from Germany to Japan. If it had reached Japan then NY would of been

where those Atom Bombs would of been landing.

I wont go into the conspiracies surrounding the Pearl Harbour

bombing.

and I know it aint PC...but Pearl Harbour was tactical genius. Its only luck that America didnt lose

all its fleet ( or is it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif - did the lizards know what was up )

***near the end of WWII, the U boat set sail before the End...but was captured after the end of the War, the

ship\'s crew had no idea the War had ended and didnt know about the precious cargo it carried. The U boat was sent

with the plans cos the Germans new the end was near...and felt the plans would better serve the Japanese to complete

the designs on the first Atom Bomb. The Americans Intel new of this very important ship\'s journey...and sent a

fleet out to intercept this U Boat.

very dramatic huh

-------------------------------------------
anyone seen

DAS BOOT, great sound track isnt it

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the correction. I

incorrectly use the two terms interchangeably sometimes, but at least I don\'t say, \"Nucular\"...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Good post. That whole disaster could\'ve been lessened in

severity had the guard known that they were enemy planes...it\'s a shame that they were expecting allied aircraft

around the same time they came or the damage wouldn\'t have been so devastating. But, as you said, it was a great

tactical move by Japan...although not a good long-term tactical move since it eventually led to its downfall, right?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

CJ, the United States waited so long because before

WWII...well, the best description of how the US was then is Canada now. It kept to itself and that was it. It

didn\'t meddle with the affairs of the \'outside world\'. The outcome of WWII gave the US recognition as a

\"superpower\", and since then it\'s gradually become the \"Big Brother\" of nations. I remember my history

teacher\'s rendition of the US government during WWII:

\"They just took over _(enter one of many locations

here)_! We must do something!\"
\"No, we must remain neutral! We can\'t get involved in this yet! Let\'s

wait until we absolutely have to get dragged into this war!\"

The President held off until the last possible

moment for various reasons. The US didn\'t have the military power it does now among other reasons.

Mtnjim

05-25-2004, 01:00 PM

\"The outcome of WWII gave the US recognition as a \"superpower\",...\"

Only because it was the only major

country whose infrastructure and manufacturing hadn\'t been devastated.

Pure \"luck\".

Elana

05-26-2004, 09:12 AM

I

found just the tail of a lizard in my house today. I think Michael Moore is trying to send me a message.

JustPeachy

05-26-2004, 12:22 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
\"The outcome of WWII gave the US recognition as a

\"superpower\",...\"

Only because it was the only major country whose infrastructure and manufacturing

hadn\'t been devastated.

Pure \"luck\".

<hr /></blockquote>

Uhhh, seems to

me, there mighta been a little \"superpower\" involved there, ya think? Ohhhh, right-o. It didn\'t have anything

to do with the fact that people in Germany were already using wheelbarrows to carry enough cash to buy a loaf of

bread when Hitler came to power. You\'re right. Evil Empire. We suck.

Mtnjim

05-26-2004, 01:03 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
\"The outcome of WWII gave the US recognition as a

\"superpower\",...\"

Only because it was the only major country whose infrastructure and manufacturing

hadn\'t been devastated.

Pure \"luck\".

<hr /></blockquote>

Uhhh, seems to

me, there mighta been a little \"superpower\" involved there, ya think? Ohhhh, right-o. It didn\'t have anything

to do with the fact that people in Germany were already using wheelbarrows to carry enough cash to buy a loaf of

bread when Hitler came to power. You\'re right. Evil Empire. We suck.

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m sorry you didn\'t \"get it\". It has nothing to do with \"we suck\", it\'s just

the way things were. England, France, Germany, Japan, and just about all of the other European and Asian nations had

been devastated. Russia with their \"revolution\" had killed or deported the people with the skills to run major

manufacturing and farming operations. In other words, they had to \"learn\" to become a \"superpower\". Were you

simply considering military might, the Chinese outnumbered us 4 to 1. Before the war, the US was very isolationist,

after the war, we were fortunate enough to be \"in the right place at the right time\" to fill a vacuum.

Just

MHO

Ash

06-17-2004, 10:19 PM

"Fahrenheit 9/11 gets help

offer from Hezbollah

Samantha Ellis
Thursday June 17, 2004
The Guardian

The controversy over Michael

Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 just won't go away. The film, which is being advertised with the strapline "Controversy?

What controversy?", has been rated R by the Motion Picture Association of America, meaning no one under 17 can see

it. Distributors Lions Gate Films and IFC Films, opening the film next week, are appealing against the decision. The

rating came partly because the film shows images of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, images Moore says he had

long before the scandal erupted. He told Associated Press he kept quiet because he thought he'd be accused of "just

putting this out for publicity for my movie".

Anger at Moore is building up, too. Pro-military lobby group Move

America Forward is campaigning to "Stop Michael Moore from profiting in his attacks on America and our military";

Michael Wilson is making a documentary called Michael Moore Hates America; and the website

www.moorelies.com (http://www.moorelies.com/) is out "to expose America's fakest pseudo-muckraker".

Meanwhile, in the United Arab Emirates, the film is being offered the kind of support it doesn't need.

According to Screen International, the UAE-based distributor Front Row Entertainment has been contacted by

organisations related to the Hezbollah in Lebanon with offers of help. All in all, Tony Blair must be relieved that

Moore is not going to make a film about him; Moore rebuffed the rumour in a message on his website headlined: "Sorry

to scare you, Tony. Michael Moore was just kidding." "

a.k.a.

06-19-2004, 02:07 PM

Well, Metro, part

of the problem is that people DO believe they are participating in a democracy, when in fact they live in a

republic.

Interestingly enough, although communications have improved, literacy rates haven\'t changed a

whole lot since back then, and considerably less since about 1870[/img]
Where do you get this,

Peachy? According to the National Center for Education Statistics there was a dramatic rise in literacy between 1870

and 1979 (from 80% to 99.4% overall and 21% to 98.4% for African Americans).
Back in colonial days, literacy rates

were established by the percentage of people that could sign their own wills. (Not very scientific.)

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/littrend.asp

JustPeachy

06-19-2004, 02:10 PM

Where do you get

this, Peachy? According to the National Center for Education Statistics there was a dramatic rise in literacy

between 1870 and 1979 (from 80% to 99.4% overall and 21% to 98.4% for African Americans).
Back in colonial days,

literacy rates were established by the percentage of people that could sign their own wills. (Not very

scientific.)

[url="http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/littrend.asp"]http://nces.ed.gov/naal/historicaldata/littrend.asp[/ur

l]
Heh. Consider YOUR source! :D My figures came from some independent historians who specialize in that

period.

a.k.a.

06-19-2004, 02:27 PM

Are you sure you´re

gonna get to see it? When exactly?
"Fahrenheit 9/11" was financed by Mirimax studios, owned by Disney

Co.. Disney didn’t want to distribute the film, so Mirimax founders Harvey and Bob Weinstein bought it at cost and

are going to show it through Lions Gate (a Canadian company) starting June 25.

Judging from Moore’s books,

the alleged connections between Bush and Bin Laden are probably going to be more of a spotlight on the business

agreements between the two families — not any kind of conspiracy theory. (Although I do hope Moore talks about how

Bush’s so-called “war on terrorism” is playing right into Al Qaida’s strategy.)

I expect the most shocking

part of this film will be coverage of the Iraq invasion. Moore managed to “embed” some of his people among the US

forces, which should provide an alternative view of what the troops think of their “commander in chief”. This may

well be why the film received an R rating.

a.k.a.

06-19-2004, 02:29 PM

My figures came

from some independent historians who specialize in that period.
So who are they? And where did they get

their data?

JustPeachy

06-19-2004, 02:33 PM

So who are they?

And where did they get their data?
Alright. I'll look up the references again. But not right now. I have

people coming over.

a.k.a.

06-19-2004, 02:38 PM

Alright. I'll

look up the references again. But not right now. I have people coming over.
No pressure, and I

suppose it doesn’t really matter (the important statistic is current literacy rates). I’m just shocked and amazed.

metroman

06-20-2004, 08:11 AM

Judging

from Moore’s books, the alleged connections between Bush and Bin Laden are probably going to be more of a spotlight

on the business agreements between the two families — not any kind of conspiracy theory.

Business

agreements between the Bush & Bin Laden families and no conspiracy...You must be joking...???

Fahrenheit 9/11" was financed by Mirimax studios, owned by Disney Co.. Disney didn’t want to

distribute the film.

Ever wonder why Disney didn't want to distribute "Fahrenheit 9/11" despite the

fact it's money in the bag...Michael Eisner, Disney CEO, is a pawn of the Bush Administration and does what he's

told by them despite the fact that Eisner is ultimately accountable to the shareholders of the Walt Disney

Company.

Bush has been an unmitigated disaster for the US, a total catastrophe! He is responsible for

incalculable damage to the reputation of the US around the world...Much of the world community no longer takes US

foreign policy seriously. There were no WMD (a child could figure that out) & now the 9/11 Commission has concluded

"no substantive ties between Al Qaeda & the Hussein regime"

I really dont know what keeps Colin Powell going

considering the extent he's been played by the neocons...

The people of the US are a wonderful, giving,

reasonable, peace loving people...but we keep electing total clowns to lead us...but then again we didn't really

elect this clown did we...