Increased pheromone production/animal magnetism

[jvkohl]

Unpopular in the Animal Kingdom? Try Borrowing Another

Cologne
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/18/science/

18SMEL.html (\"http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/18/science/18SMEL.html\")

The above article requires a free subscription to the NY Times. The article details results

from an experiment in which male mice were made more attractive by increasing their scent production. I must first

acquire the full text of the journal article, but it appears that the methods used allow for a somewhat different

interpretation (than what is noted in the article) of the proposed causal relationship between increased masculine

scent and increased attractiveness of the male to the female.

[bjf]

Unpopular in the Animal Kingdom? Try Borrowing Another Cologne
By CAROL KAESUK YOON

Published: May

18, 2004


hen it comes to choosing a mate, animals — be they butterflies, frogs, elephants or humans — have

strong preferences. They gravitate to the one with the glittering scales, the warbling call, that ineffable

something.

Such predilections may seem harmless, except perhaps to those not preferred. But they can be major

obstacles to scientists trying to breed rare species back into abundance with just a few potential mates.



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Although Noah may have had no problems working with a single pair of every animal, researchers

often find that animals they try to mate will refuse to have anything to do with each other. What with famously

recalcitrant lovers like giant pandas (not to mention cloud leopards, an endangered species whose males sometimes

kill females presented to them), many animals simply cannot be enticed to love the one they\'re with.

Now

scientists working with a declining species, the harvest mouse, report that by using a few simple aromatic

manipulations they have taken males that were once entirely unappealing to some females, and have made them

altogether more alluring. The technique involves marking objects in the animals\' cages with scents given off by

the most appealing males.

\"It can be done and have real effects,\" said Dr. Craig Roberts, a behavioral

ecologist at the University of Newcastle in England, who wrote the new study along with his colleague Dr. Morris

Gosling. It appeared in the April issue of Conservation Biology.

Noting that scent-marked objects can also be

collected from other species, then stored and even frozen, Dr. Roberts added, \"And it\'s easy, practical and

very cheap.\"

Scientists say the research suggests that simple scent manipulations can be used in breeding a

wide range of animals, including other mammals, amphibians and reptiles, providing an alternative to expensive

artificial insemination in some cases and to total failure in others.

Researchers would not only have a greater

chance of success in using the few animals that they have, but could also help make wise mating choices for

animals.

Scientists could use the manipulations to increase the success of mating a particular male and female

whose young would greatly increase the genetic variation of a population or would be likely to have hearty immune

systems.

The harvest mouse, whose scientific name is Micromys minutus, is a two- to three-inch-long wheat-brown

creature with a prehensile tail. Scientists say that the species is in decline across much of its range in Europe

and Asia, and that efforts to breed it in captivity have suffered from the females\' tendency to fight, bite and

lunge viciously at males to which they are introduced.

As with many declining species, relatively little is known

of the mouse\'s biology. But scientists know from other more thoroughly studied rodents that dominant males often

do much more signaling — marking their territories with a spray of urine and a smear of their anal region and

surrounding scent glands, for instance — than less successful males.

Trying to turn their duds into studs, the

researchers exposed rejected males to scents from the preferred males. The smells of the other males charged up the

rejected males, and they responded to the scent intrusion by rapidly increasing the scent marking of their own

cages.

When the females were again presented with the choice of the same males, they invariably showed much more

interest in the former rejects and spent much more time with them than before. Still, the researchers noted that in

the end, many females continued to spend the most time with the males they had initially preferred.

Luckily,

females in some species are more accepting of males whose smells are familiar. So scientists exposed female harvest

mice to some male smells but not others. They found that females later preferred the males that smelled familiar,

and were much less aggressive toward those males.

Dr. Roberts said other researchers had begun using scent

manipulation with pandas, exposing them to one another\'s odors to help mating.

Scientists say transferred

smells may be important for other purposes as well, including enriching the habitats of captive animals with what

Dr. Roberts called a \"scent postcard\" — a mailed antidote to the misery of the ever-pacing zoo cat or

bear.

\"You might have a single pair of animals in London, but you create a system where you have a San Diego

animal\'s scent on one end and Paris at the other end of the enclosure,\" he said. \"They think they\'ve got

neighbors, and you\'re clearly going to maintain natural behavior in captivity, all for the price of a postage

stamp.\"

[nonscents]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Scientists say transferred

smells may be important for other purposes as well, including enriching the habitats of captive animals with what

Dr. Roberts called a \"scent postcard\" — a mailed antidote to the misery of the ever-pacing zoo cat or

bear.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'ve been to Tiger Mountain a few times at the Bronx Zoo.

The tigers are outdoors in a wild Bronx forest landscape and the people are protected behind glass barriers. Every

hour or so the keepers open a door and give the lions a piece of raw meat at the end of a pole. The keepers

mentioned that they take commercial perfumes and colognes and pour them in areas around the habitat. This is done to

give the tigers novel stimuli regularly.

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Trying

to turn their duds into studs, the researchers exposed rejected males to scents from the preferred males. The smells

of the other males charged up the rejected males, and they responded to the scent intrusion by rapidly increasing

the scent marking of their own cages.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Speaking of novel stimuli .

. . this is a causal explanation of pheromones that I\'ve never seen presented on this forum before. The narrative

goes something like this:

I am a beta male producing beta mones and, therefore, attracting the attention of no

fertile females. I start smearing my body or clothes with synthetic pheromones in the belief that those mones mimic

the mones of alpha males. What actually is happening is that my sense organs sense the mones of what seem to be an

alpha male. I have evolved in such a way that the only way I can spread my DNA around the gene pool is to compete

with the alpha male so my body modifies its mone output so as to transmit more natural alpha mones.

If this were

true, then virtually none of us are doing what we think we are doing. If the mone user is a male seeking a female,

the mone user is not attracting females with the synthetic mones. He is using the synthetic mones to alter his own

natural mone output.

Sounds farfetched and appears to conflict with many of the anecdotes on this

board.

Unfortunately the real world is always so complicated. What might be more likely is that the synthetic

mones do have a mimicry effect, where the female mistakes the beta male for the alpha male his synthetic mones

mimic. And also it may be the case that the beta male\'s natural mone output is modified over time. After all, if

synthetic mones can have such a powerful effect on the target surely they could have a powerful effect on the user,

including the effect to alter the user\'s pheromone output.

Thanks for the article JVK.

[jvkohl]

Typically, a subordinate male is \"chemically castrated\" by the pheromones of the dominant male,

which reduce testosterone levels in other males. From a quick read of the paper Dr. Roberts sent, this appears to

hold true in the harvest mice. I think that what\'s happening is the subordinates, placed in the odor environment

scented by the alphas, are doing their best to distribute more of their individual odor, thereby increasing the

olfactory appearance that they are the owners of the territory, and therefore the resident alpha male.

Under

typical conditions the comparatively testosterone deficient subordinates have little chance for mating, because they

are not preferred. But in the absence of the reigning alpha, they can distribute more of their testosterone related

scent and thereby become the preferred mate.

Accordingly, this is what can be expected by adding masculine

pheromones to your scent signature, like with SoE. You increase your testosterone related odor and this helps you to

become the preferred mate. The scenario where the dominant male\'s pheromones cause other males to increase their

testosterone production, is far less likely. So far, it is the pheromones of the opposite sex that raise

testosterone in males--like the copulins do. This opposite sex effect is typical of mammalian pheromones.

Of

interest is that Bruce and I discussed these two very different approaches last night. Also of some interest may be

that I have suggested to Dr. Roberts the more typical approach: inject the harvest mice with testosterone and see if

they become the preferred mate. If he doesn\'t do such a study, someone else will.

Dr. Roberts also has another

article in press that helps to link ovulatory phase pheromones to a woman\'s increased attractiveness as it is

visually perceived. Should be out soon, so I\'ll wait to comment further until the paper is available to others.

Meanwhile, I hope some of the ladies will find that SoE/w has the same effect that Dr. Roberts will detail.

[bjf]

JVK:

Is nol a metabolite of testesterone or estrogen, or do we not know?

Because swiping yourself

with a estrogen metabolite wouldn\'t seem to make one seem very alpha.

[jvkohl]

-nol is an androgen metabolite (masculine); I\'m not sure whether the pathway is directly or

indirectly linked to testosterone production--it\'s a steroid hormone biochemistry thing that requires me to look

at the metabolic chart each time the question arises.

[Sagacious1420]

If I understand this stuff correctly (which may or may not be

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif), then the 16-androstenes androstadienol and androstadienone are

both testosterone metabolites which are both precursors of androstenol and androstenone which, in turn, are

developed thru the activity of cornyform bacteria.

[bjf]

Hmmm, seems like all of the major mones we know about are primarily metabolines of masculine hormones.



Wonder why we don\'t know more about ones from more female-oriented hormones. Perhaps some are in wagg or

chikara though.

[einstein]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Hmmm, seems like all of the major

mones we know about are primarily metabolines of masculine hormones.
Wonder why we don\'t know more about ones

from more female-oriented hormones.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Erox products have

estratetraenol. Since we don\'t know the exact composition of thier colognes, and I have never seen a pure

estratetraenol product available to the general public its a little hard for us little people to test it. But

researchers like McClintock like playing with it.
I have an unscented cologne with A1 and estratetraenol, and it

seems to work wonders on the bitchy pregnant girl at work, but I don\'t know which chemical is responsible for

turning her into a nice person.

But I\'m gonna guess that the reason we don\'t know much about feminine mones

is because guys are more likely to spend money trying to get laid than girls. JVK probably has a better answer

though

[bigdog]

Realm seems to work well around women that are often bitchy IMO.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Hmmm, seems like all of the major mones we know about are primarily

metabolines of masculine hormones.
Wonder why we don\'t know more about ones from more female-oriented

hormones.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Erox products have estratetraenol. Since we

don\'t know the exact composition of thier colognes, and I have never seen a pure estratetraenol product available

to the general public its a little hard for us little people to test it. But researchers like McClintock like

playing with it.
I have an unscented cologne with A1 and estratetraenol, and it seems to work wonders on the

bitchy pregnant girl at work, but I don\'t know which chemical is responsible for turning her into a nice

person.

But I\'m gonna guess that the reason we don\'t know much about feminine mones is because guys are

more likely to spend money trying to get laid than girls. JVK probably has a better answer though

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

A-1 elicits elevated mood in women, that\'s why Erox puts it in

Realm/w as I understand it...also why some men put it in their mixes. The philosophy behind their products is to

have an effect on the person wearing them.

IIRC, Realm/m has E-1 which has the same effect on the men who

wear it. You say that you have something which contains both? Several men here have reported acute symptoms of

depression from exposure to A-1. Have you noticed this effect from the product you mentioned? Can\'t help but

wonder if including E-1 would temper the potential depressive effect of A-1.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Realm seems to work well

around women that are often bitchy IMO.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Are you referring to

Realm/m? That\'s interesting considering the Erox approach to phero products.

[einstein]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
IIRC, Realm/m has E-1 which has the same effect on

the men who wear it. You say that you have something which contains both? Several men here have reported acute

symptoms of depression from exposure to A-1. Have you noticed this effect from the product you mentioned? Can\'t

help but wonder if including E-1 would temper the potential depressive effect of A-1.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">


I\'ve only worn it a few times, got it around the same time as Chikara, and I\'ve been

busy wearing Chikara. But the first time I wore it there was no depression. The second time, after 2 or 3 hours I

was feeling pretty down, but I never thought to attribute that to A1. Don\'t think I should either, I\'m pretty

sure I know what caused it.
I know other people talk about headaches, but that wasn\'t a problem. I did seem

slightly more susceptible to headaches. There was several times when I started to get a headache, at reasonable

times to get one (high stress, physical activity), but I barely noticed it and a minute later it was gone. I still

have testing to do with this before I can make any conclusions.
This product was designed to attract gay men, but

worn by a straight guy(me), don\'t know if that tells you anything about the A/E ratio or not.