New to the forum...saying hello

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

I am the President of a company with a recent addition to the pheromone industry [Perception]. I\'ve

been working with Bruce on the product and we\'re almost ready for release. However, this is a new venture for us

as we\'ve been manufacturing fitness products (prohormone based) for about 2 years. Also, my VP and I are active

bodybuilders so I thought I\'d introduce myself to the health conscience folks!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

For those that are active on bodybuilding boards my screen name

is Chemo (or, Big Daddy Chemo) and I\'m the ADMIN/OWNER of

http://anabolicminds.com (\"http://anabolicminds.com\") Also, for those that are familiar with

prohormones I own BDC Nutrition. If you are familiar with either you will recognize that a quality product is

coming soon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since fitness is my lifestyle I\'ll try to field

any questions that are thrown my way.

Bobby

[DZorro]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I am the President of a company with a recent

addition to the pheromone industry [Perception]. I\'ve been working with Bruce on the product and we\'re almost

ready for release. However, this is a new venture for us as we\'ve been manufacturing fitness products

(prohormone based) for about 2 years. Also, my VP and I are active bodybuilders so I thought I\'d introduce

myself to the health conscience folks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

For those that are active

on bodybuilding boards my screen name is Chemo (or, Big Daddy Chemo) and I\'m the ADMIN/OWNER of

http://anabolicminds.com (\"http://anabolicminds.com\") Also, for those that are familiar with

prohormones I own BDC Nutrition. If you are familiar with either you will recognize that a quality product is

coming soon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since fitness is my lifestyle I\'ll try to field

any questions that are thrown my way.

Bobby

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Hi, and

thanks, for the link it really came in handy.
I just started my training to gain more musles, and have been using

creatine monohyfdrate.

So your link in your post came in really handy.

DZorro,

[DrSmellThis]

Welcome and congrats on your new product!

[bjf]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I am the President of a company with a recent

addition to the pheromone industry [Perception]. I\'ve been working with Bruce on the product and we\'re almost

ready for release. However, this is a new venture for us as we\'ve been manufacturing fitness products

(prohormone based) for about 2 years. Also, my VP and I are active bodybuilders so I thought I\'d introduce

myself to the health conscience folks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

For those that are active

on bodybuilding boards my screen name is Chemo (or, Big Daddy Chemo) and I\'m the ADMIN/OWNER of

http://anabolicminds.com (\"http://anabolicminds.com\") Also, for those that are familiar with

prohormones I own BDC Nutrition. If you are familiar with either you will recognize that a quality product is

coming soon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since fitness is my lifestyle I\'ll try to field

any questions that are thrown my way.

Bobby

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What process

are you embarking on to come up with the pheromone ratios in your formula?

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

What process are you embarking on to

come up with the pheromone ratios in your formula?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Good question!



We have been researching hormones/prohormones for 2 years in the nutrition industry and have many contacts in

the China rim for custom chemical manufacture. Typically, we develop the manufacture process for our hormones

in-house on a small scale and then subcontract large volume manufacture to one of 3 chemical houses. We maintain

close ties to the process and utilize strict quality controls on raw materials. We test each batch that we receive

and obtain COA\'s from a federally accredited laboratory as to purity and actual composition.

Once we receive

the raw materials and verify that it meets quality standards we then process according to GMP. Currently, we are

striving to meet ISO 9001:2000 registration. This is important to me as I am an ASQ (American Society of Quality)

Quality Manager, ASQ Quality Engineer, and a Lean Manufacture specialist.

Now, how did we come up with our ratio

in our formula? Simple: RESEARCH. We based our formula on current peer reviewed feedback and also objective

feedback from this forum and others. We looked at scientific studies to see what science tells us about ratios and

effects then reviewed that with current product offerings with their respective real world feedback.

Well, how

about our ground breaking formula? As anyone knows that is familiar with our nutrition products we support

homebrewers / home experimenters. We led the transdermal revolution with not only our high end transdermal but also

the fact that WE DID NOT HIDE OUR FORUMULA. When every other company was actively hiding their formula we released

it and instructed people on how to make it themselves! This is our operating philosophy: LEARN, TEACH, LEAD.

We

feel that our formula is ground breaking since it is COMPLETELY WATER BASED. For those that like to experiment this

will prove to be invaluable. See, we formulated Perception to be on the strong side. It is always better to have a

strong product that can be diluted than a weak product that cannot be tailored to individual tastes.

This is how

we envision Perception being used: a customer purchases a unit from Love-scent.com and applies their first

application (2 squirts). If they find it is a little strong then they decrease to 1 squirt. If it is still too

strong they have the option of simply adding WATER to dilute it...no messy chemicals like oils or alcohols...simply

WATER. The advantages to a water based formula are obvious especially with a potent product like

Perception!

Now, one thing I should mention here is that we are applying for a patent on our proprietary water

based formula. We cannot release the ingredients, other than the pheromone content and ratios, to ensure a

competitor does not steal our intellectual property. However, once we receive the patent we will release the

formula so that all home experimenters can take advatage of water based pheromones! It will truly revolutionize the

pheromone homebrew movement!

Hopefully I have answered your question to the fullest but if I left something out

don\'t hesitate to ask!

Bobby

[bjf]

Thanks

Bobby.

Interesting.

I take it we have to stick to squirting because if we dab (put our finger over bottle

opening) bacteria can get in with no alcohol to protect it from nasty pheromone-bacteria conversions?

Also, what

are your thoughts on Rone, and how much should be used with respect to Nol and None?

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Thanks Bobby.

Interesting.

I take

it we have to stick to squirting because if we dab (put our finger over bottle opening) bacteria can get in with no

alcohol to protect it from nasty pheromone-bacteria conversions?

Also, what are your thoughts on Rone, and how

much should be used with respect to Nol and None?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Bacteria

converting pheromones?? I\'ve been in the hormone business for years and this is the first time I\'ve heard of

that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif If someone has information contrary to my understanding

I\'d like to see their data / research / reference for such an assertion.

As for the actual ratio of

pheromones, I\'ll defer that to my VP who has much more extensive knowledge of the area. As lead chemist I\'m

responsible for the formula side of the house and Matt takes on the product development.

He has registered an

account and is awaiting activation.

Bobby

[CptKipling]

Bacterial conversion is a BIG issue.

The accepted knowledge is that androstenol is converted to androstenone by

bacterial action.

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bacterial conversion is a BIG

issue.

The accepted knowledge is that androstenol is converted to androstenone by bacterial action.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, let\'s examine the reaction: androstenol must oxidize to

androstenone. How does this happen? There are two pathways that this will occur. The first, and most prevalent,

is enzymatic oxidation by 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3-BHSD). This is a naturally occurring enzyme in the

body that is specific to this reaction. The second pathway is by metallic catalyst in the form of magnesium or

other suitable transition element (Pt, Pd, Al, etc). Of course, there is a third pathway which is spontaneous

oxidation but does not happen except under the most harsh condiitons (i.e. - temperature well over 800 degrees F).

For all the chem heads out there the very fact that -nol is a secodary alcohol on a saturated alpha ring lends more

stability. The fact is nol is a very stable compound.

To put this in terms of prohormones and nutrition: this

would be likened to 4-andostenediol (4-AD), the most mature and well known prohormone, converting or oxiding

directly to testosterone base. This is not the case as has been established by the patent holder, researchers

worldwide, and the federal government (via FDA and DEA).

So, what are the odds of a bacteria compromising the

structural integrity of a pheromone? Little to none as they utilize hexose based sugars for fuel...not steroidal

backbones.

Interesting discussion...

Bobby

[DrSmellThis]

I\'m a bit busy at the moment, but I\'d be happy to link a conversion study or two if no one else can find

them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif One study suggests -nol to none conversion starts in as soon

as 20 minutes on the skin, particularly on hairy, smelly areas; presumably due in part to aerobic cornyform

bacteria, some of which apparently love testosterone metabolites. Interestingly, a portion of conversions are

bidirectional. I don\'t know that the exact mechanisms are yet understood.

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'m a bit busy at the moment, but

I\'d be happy to link a conversion study or two if no one else can find them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif One study suggests -nol to none conversion starts in as soon as 20

minutes on the skin, particularly on hairy, smelly areas; presumably due in part to aerobic cornyform bacteria, some

of which apparently love testosterone metabolites. Interestingly, a portion of conversions are bidirectional. I

don\'t know that the exact mechanisms are yet understood.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">
Yes...please post the links!

As you are aware, that particular bacteria flourishes in moist

areas of the body such as arm pit and groin. I guess the take home lesson is don\'t use a pheromone deoderant?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bobby

[DrSmellThis]

...Or learn to surf the conversion wave! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'m a bit busy at the moment, but

I\'d be happy to link a conversion study or two if no one else can find them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif One study suggests -nol to none conversion starts in as soon as 20

minutes on the skin, particularly on hairy, smelly areas; presumably due in part to aerobic cornyform bacteria, some

of which apparently love testosterone metabolites. Interestingly, a portion of conversions are bidirectional. I

don\'t know that the exact mechanisms are yet understood.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Here is the study that your are surely citing:
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

It is still unknown how many different pheromones are produced in human

axillae, but some of them have been investigated in recent years. Most studies focused on the 16-androstenes,

metabolites of the characteristically male sexual hormones, the androgens, which are secreted by the apocrine

glands. Dorfman [47] assumes that the 16-androstenes develop with the metabolism of testosterone. Two of these

androstenes, the alcohol 5-androst-16en-3ol (androstenol) and the ketone 5a-androst-16en-3-one (androstenone) have

odorous characteristics that bear a similarity to the smell of male axillae. Androstenol has a musk-like scent,

while androstenone smells urinous. It is important to note that the odors arise only via the activity of

microorganisms [48]. Among these microorganisms are the aerobic bacteria Corynebacterium ssp., which transform the

odorless precursors androstadienol and androstadienone, into the odorous 5a-androstenone [49]. If the axillae are

treated with antibacterial detergents, the production of androstenone decreases significantly [50].
Male axillary

sweat contains approximately five times more androstenone than female sweat [51]. This sex difference can be

explained by sexually dimorphic levels of blood androgens, and by sex differences in the colonization of

microorganisms. For example, Jackman and Noble [52] investigated the axillary bacteria of 163 male and 122 female

subjects and were able to show that in most men the axillae were dominated by the bacteria Corynebacteria ssp.,

whereas in women they found the bacteria Micrococcaceae. Other putative human pheromones, whether secreted primarily

in the axillae, or in other areas, can be expected to be identified upon the examination of sexually dimorphic

adrenal hormone metabolites, and with the identification of other sexually dimorphic microorganism colonization.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
If you notice, it mentions bacterial transformation of

androstadienol and androstadienone -&gt; androstenone. As you know, these are precursors for BOTH androstenol and

androstenone and it suggests that the bacteria may shift the preference to the keto specie (androstenone) by some

unknown mechanism. However, this DOES NOT suggest there is a direct oxidation transformation from androstenol -&gt;

androstenone. Speaking from a purely chemical standpoint the amount of energy needed to directly oxidize ANYTHING

whether it be organic or inorganic is a tremendous amount. This usually happens due to an enzyme or transition

metal catalyst.

The study cited deals with very specific species and could be extrapolated to a general group of

(1) alpha ring unsaturated specie -&gt; (2) alpha ring saturated specie via bacterial pathway. What is being

proposed with the -nol direct to -none conversion is dealing with 2 species that are both saturated alpha rings.

The bacteria loses energy in this process and would therefore have an anti-bacterial process (it would kill the

bacteria). However, as the study suggests, if it were taking the precursors and gaining electrons during the

oxidation it has a net benefit which will help flourish the bacterial population.

For a more simple analogy: it

is like a precursor comes to a fork in the road and has to choose one path or the other. A bacteria comes along and

helps the precursor make up its mind to go the -none route instead of the -nol route. NOTICE: it says NOTHING about

going from -nol to -none

Bobby

[DrSmellThis]

* OK,

I have some time now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks. That was indeed one of the ones I

was thinking of, but this might be more relevant and basic:

Gower DB, Nixon A, Jackman PJH, Mallet AI.

Transformation of steroids by axillary coryneform bacteria. Int J Cosm Sci 1986; 8:149-58.

* This was the

one you referenced, of course:

Gower DB, Holland KT, Mallet AI, Rennie PJ, Watkins WJ. Comparison of

16-Androstene Steroid Concentrations in Sterile Apocrine Sweat and Axillary Secretions: Interconversions of

16-Androstenes by the Axillary Microflora-a Mechanism for Axillary Odor Production in Man? J Steroid Biochem Mol

Biol 1994; 48:409-18.

* Some others:

Bird S, Gower DB. Axillary androstenone, cholesterol and

squalene in men: preliminary evidence for androstenone being a product of bacterial action. J Steroid Biochem Mol

Biol 1982; 17:517-22.

Gower DB, Bird S, Sharma P, House FR. Axillary androstenone in men and women:

relationships with olfactory acuity to odorous 16-androstenes. Experientia 1985; 41:1134-6.

Jackman PJH,

Noble WC. Normal axillary skin microflora in various populations. Clin Exp Dermatol 1983; 8:259-68.

* I

believe the article about the oxidation of androstenol occuring at 20 minutes, is this one:

Labows JN, Preti

G, Hoelzle E, Leyden E, Kligman A. Steroid analysis of human apocrine secretion. Steroids 1979; 34:249-58.

*

I couldn\'t find URL links to them though Pub Med, unfortunately, except for the one you already found. However,

J. Kohl wrote a nice review of this literature, which can be found on his website, under a \"scientific evidence\"

link. The review, text and all, is then the first thing referenced after his

book:

http:/// (\"http:///\")

* As the good Cap\'t

said, conversions have been discussed a lot in the forum, mostly from direct experiences users have of phero

transformations and breakdowns. (Forum practitioners are sometimes a step ahead of researchers on some things,

IMHO.) I think -nol converts to more than just -none on your skin, things that stink as bad or worse; as I\'ve

gotten more experienced at recognizing the different smells of different pheromones. I\'ve begun to look at

conversions as \"our friend\", however, due to the vast number of reactions that must have to occur in order to

end up with something like a \"human musk\". Musks are typically very complex substances, and I think the concept

of \"musk\" speaks more to how humans attract each other than that of \"pheromone,\" which normally refers to a

very specific chemical that leads to a very specific change in a hormone level and/or behavior. Of course I\'m a

perfumer; so I\'m biased. But the concept of \"musk\" is much more compatible with the complex realities of

human relationship, and is capable of reflecting, or corresponding with, a multitude of factors that influence human

reproductive behavior. The concept of \"musk\", as used, is also pretty specific to mammals, is more holistic; and

is more compatible with new, \"vibratory\" theories of olfaction.

(Note to moderators: Does this

thread belong in the main forum section? Feel free to delete this question, BTW.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

DrSmellThis,

At least 2 of those studies support my view. The others I can\'t

reference.

Basically, what they are saying is that there is no significant interconversion between -nol and

-none.

For instance:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Comparison of

16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and axillary secretions: interconversions of

16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a mechanism for axillary odour production in man?

Gower DB, Holland

KT, Mallet AI, Rennie PJ, Watkins WJ.

Department of Clinical Biochemistry (Steroid Laboratory), London Hospital

Medical College, England.

The concentrations of five 16-androstene steroids were determined, by a GC-MS method,

in freshly-produced apocrine sweat (adrenaline-induced), in 8 men and 2 women. The ranges of concentrations

(nmol/microliter) in apocrine sweat were: 5 alpha-androst-16-en-3-one (5 alpha-A), 0.1-2.0 and

4,16-androstadien-3-one (androstadienone), 0-1.9, 5,16-Androstadien-3 beta-ol (androstadienol) was also found in 5

of the subjects (range 0.05-1.05). 5 alpha-Androst-16-en-3 alpha- or 3 beta-ols [3 alpha (beta)-androstenols] were

only found in small amounts (&lt; 0.1 nmol/microliters) in a few subjects. In the second study, prior to apocrine

sweat collection (adrenaline injection), the axillary skin of 6 of the male subjects was washed with diethyl ether

on an adjacent site of the axillary vault. The concentrations of 16-androstenes were compared in the ethereal

extracts and apocrine sweat. The former contained detectable levels (pmol/cm2) of androstadienone (17.9 +/- 2.4), 3

alpha-androstenol (6.9 +/- 3.7), 3 beta-androstenol (1.8 +/- 1.0) and androstadienol (1.9 +/- 0.5) (means +/- SEM)

in all 6 subjects. All but 1 subject also had 5 alpha-androstenone, the mean value for the others being 2.5 +/- 0.6.

The axillary skin levels of 3 alpha- and 3 beta-androstenols, androstadienol and, in 3 subjects, androstadienone

exceeded those in the apocrine sweat obtained from the same subjects, whereas levels of 5 alpha-androstenone in the

skin extracts were all lower than in apocrine sweat samples, when related to the corresponding areas of skin

sampled. The metabolism of 16-androstenes was studied in vitro in the presence of two aerobic coryneform bacteria,

previously shown to metabolize testosterone as well as being capable of producing odour from extracts of axillary

sweat in an odour-generation test. Although both coryneforms caused complex metabolic reactions and were capable

of oxidation or reduction at C-3 and C-4, the overall direction favoured reduction. For example, large

quantities of the more odorous 5 alpha-androstenone and 3 alpha-androstenol were formed from androstadienol and

androstadienone. In contrast, strains of corynebacteria, unable to produce odour and incapable of metabolizing

testosterone, were also unable to metabolize 16-androstenes.


<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">
Just as I was trying to get across, a specie that has an unsaturated alpha ring will be subject

to the corneyform bacterial transfomation but not saturated rings (like -nol).

Here\'s another that proves my

point:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Applications of gas chromatography-mass

spectrometry in the study of androgen and odorous 16-androstene metabolism by human axillary bacteria.

Mallet AI,

Holland KT, Rennie PJ, Watkins WJ, Gower DB.

Institute of Dermatology, U.M.D.S. Guy\'s Hospital, University of

London, U.K.

The known involvement of axillary microflora with under-arm odour (UAO) production led us to

determine whether the odorous 16-androstene steroids are formed in the axilla by bacterial metabolism of an

odourless precursor such as testosterone. Axillary bacteria from 34 men were selectively cultured for aerobic

coryneform bacteria (ACB), Micrococcaceae and propionibacteria. Overnight suspensions of bacteria were incubated

separately at 37 degrees C for two weeks with radiolabelled testosterone plus unlabelled testosterone (0.5 mg) and

0.5-mg quantities of 4,16-androstadien-3-one (androstadienone) and 5,16-androstadien-3 beta-ol (androstadienol).

After extraction and purification by Sep-Pak cartridges and thin-layer chromatography, the eluted steroids were

derivatised as the pentafluorobenzyl oximes (PFBO) and tert.-butyl dimethylsilyl (TBDMS) ethers. Saturated analogues

were used as internal standards. Selected-ion monitoring electron-impact mass spectrometry was performed at the m/z

corresponding to the M+.ion for the PFBO derivatives and the [M - 57]+ ion for the TBDMS ethers. Only ACB produced

classical musk-like UAO (UAO + ve) in an in vitro odour-producing system with 29% being UAO -ve. ACB (UAO +ve)

metabolised far more (p = 0.001) testosterone than ACB (UAO -ve), the principal metabolites being 5

alpha(beta)-dihydrotestosterone, 5 alpha(beta)-androstane-3,17-dione and 4-androstene-3,17-dione

(4-androstenedione). No non-polar 16-androstenes were formed. Micrococcus luteus (ten strains) metabolised

testosterone to 4-androstenedione only; propionibacterium spp. did not metabolise testosterone at all. However,

incubation of 16-androstenes with ACB gave evidence for 4-ene-5 alpha(beta)-reduction, 3 alpha(beta)-oxido-reduction

and epimerisation. In general the direction of transformations favoured formation of the more odorous 5

alpha-androst-16-en-3-one (5 alpha-androstenone) and 5 alpha-androst-16-en-3 alpha-ol (3 alpha-androstenol) from

less odorous steroids. Such transformations, in vivo, would not require de novo synthesis of 5

alpha-androstenone or 3 alpha-androstenol and would be consistent with utilisation by ACB of 16-androstenes already

present in small quantities in fresh apocrine secretions, which are odourless, to produce a more powerfully smelling

mixture on the axillary skin surface.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Notice, it also establishes

that formation of -nol and -none is from species that have unsaturated alpha rings.

As a logic check: if a

bacteria transforms ANYTHING it will do so for energy. When transforming unsaturated species there will be a net

energy gain by the baceria (in term sof electrons). However, if converting -nol to -none the bacteria would

LOSE energy while simultaneously creating a free -OH ion and would therefore kill or inhibit the growth of

bacteria. Ergo, the transformation of -nol to -none does not happen in significant

quantities.

Thoughts?

Bobby

[nonscents]

In the following review:


JVK et. al., Human Pheromones:

Integrating Neuroendocrinology and Ethology (\"http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00002164/00/NEL220501R01_.pdf \")

two claims are relevant to this discussion. First, on pages

313-4 and 316 the claim is made that nol oxidizes to none \"within 20 minutes\" [p. 316].

Bobby has given us

selections from some of the articles cited by JVK et. al. and these selections do not appear to support the claim of

nol conversion. I will state for the record that I have no expertise in chemistry. I am merely a layperson with

average intelligence sorting through the evidence. I obviously reserve the right to revise my beliefs as additional

evidence is proffered.

The second claim made by JVK et. al. in the same pages that is relevant to this thread is

that females find that males with nol are more attractive and males with none are more repellent. Ovulating females,

however, find none less repellent than nonovulating females.

I would be most curious if someone with access to

these papers and sufficient expertise to understand them agrees with the assertion that the current scientific

evidence shows none to be aversive to females.

Obviously the anecdotal evidence of this board shows that many

(though not all) males have success attracting human females with none. Likewise, many males use JVK\'s nol-based

SOE and have success. But anecdotal evidence, as we are all aware, can be subject to many distortions.

[DrSmellThis]

Bobby, chemistry is not my field, so I\'m not the best person for comparing relative stability of steroidal

molecules and their chemical bonds, or to critique chemical logic tracing transformations among them.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Your logic sound good to me, as far as it goes with bacteria not

wanting to kill itself. (Various enzymes, especially, and metals could be involved too, though, could they not?) On

the other hand, here is a direct link to JVK\'s well-known review article (You\'ll need Adobe Reader), which

clearly supports our \"current position\" (open to change, as always!). JVK is a regular contributor here, BTW,

and you would do well to run your analysis by him. He is not a biochemist either, but he is conversant, and knows

human pheromone research as well as anyone. I believe the article was peer-reviewed by steroidal biochemists

familiar with the research.



http://cogprints.ecs.soton

.ac.uk/archive/00002164/00/NEL220501R01_.pdf (\"http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00002164/00/NEL220501R01_.pdf\")

You might also at least check out the last article I

referenced, if you can get to the journal, as the two abstracts referred to above don\'t appear to me to address

the issue directly. I do know that long-time users of -nol here tend to agree that the smell turns to something else

with time, whether by direct transformation of -nol, or some other odor-producing process that the presence of -nol

supports. The chemistry of what happens there has not been fully articulated, unless Pherin has done it.

[CptKipling]

I have to admit that I have not had any concrete experiences that back up the nol--&gt;-none

conversion, but there are definately some unhelpful conversions going on.


*Any sweeping statements are to be

taken with a pinch of salt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Since fitness is my lifestyle I\'ll try to field

any questions that are thrown my way.

Bobby

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">




Hi Bobby.

Welcome to L-S.

I\'d like to take you up on your offer. I need to get the straight info on what Testosterone

supplement I should be taking. With the research I\'ve done I\'ve pretty much decided on Arimidex as my Estro.

blocker but I\'m totally lost about what would be the best way to go Test wise.

I\'m 53 and quite fit but I

can\'t win the Aromatase conversion battle and my little tight gut is going to get bigger if I don\'t do

something. I plan on doing an Estro/Test test in the not too distant future so I\'m not going to be tossing darts

at what my levels will be. What\'s my best approach to this? Is the Arimidex the way to go? Would Tamoxifen be a

better choice for the $ all things considered? Is there something else. 6-OXO didn\'t do squat for me and whenever

I get on a Forum like yours (great Forum BTW), I just get lost in all the opinions.

Please feel free to recommend

products from you Site. It will be good to be working with a reputable Web seller!

Thanks in advance for your

help!

BG

[DrSmellThis]

\'Xcuse me for butting in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif You know, if you want to go the

\"gentle\" natural route (always my preference), I found that Indolplex, a broccoli derivative which just

metabolizes already existing estrogen (easing that task for the liver), really made a noticeable physical difference

for me, (though it\'s not cheap) even to the point of getting better hits from younger women on days I took it

(due presumably to the younger, estrogen metabolite-free phero profile). I combine it with choline/inositol (or

triple strength lecithin) for maximum, synergistic effect, or take it alone. I\'m not at all knocking the product

you chose, but am just saying that estrogen metabolism is a part of the process that deserves attention.

[BigGulp]

Thanks Doc. I\'ve never heard of that approach. I\'ll look into it for sure. I like going natural too. I

don\'t like drug companies and their evil, Lizard like ways. Also, Pharmaceuticals give me constipation but I

think I found a natural way to take care of that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks

again!

BG

[DrSmellThis]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chemo (BDC Concepts)]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Hi Bobby. Welcome to L-S.

I\'d

like to take you up on your offer. I need to get the straight info on what Testosterone supplement I should be

taking. With the research I\'ve done I\'ve pretty much decided on Arimidex as my Estro. blocker but I\'m

totally lost about what would be the best way to go Test wise.

I\'m 53 and quite fit but I can\'t win the

Aromatase conversion battle and my little tight gut is going to get bigger if I don\'t do something. I plan on

doing an Estro/Test test in the not too distant future so I\'m not going to be tossing darts at what my levels

will be. What\'s my best approach to this? Is the Arimidex the way to go? Would Tamoxifen be a better choice for

the $ all things considered? Is there something else. 6-OXO didn\'t do squat for me and whenever I get on a Forum

like yours (great Forum BTW), I just get lost in all the opinions.

Please feel free to recommend products from

you Site. It will be good to be working with a reputable Web seller!

Thanks in advance for your help!

BG



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
As a primer, anti-e\'s are classified into two groups: aromatase

inhibitors and receptor blockers. They both work to the same end (prevention of gyno symptoms) but do it by

different mechanisms. Aromatase inhibitors (arimidex, letrozole) stop the conversion to estrogen. This is good for

some highly potent stacks where aromatization would be a problem. Receptor blockers (tamoxifen, clomid, 6-oxo) bind

to the estrogen receptor so that estrogen cannot exert its action. It does not eliminate estrogen like aromatase

inhibitors but merely keeps the estrogen from presenting symptoms.

Use of these compounds is varied and your

mileage may vary depending on your stack and desired end result. If you are simply using it to increase your

natural testosterone production I would recommend you look into other ancillaries. However, if you are considering

a test (or 4-AD) based cycle I would recommend getting BOTH products (tamoxifen and letrozole). Remember, estrogen

is not your enemy as most preach. If you lift heavy, like I do, the estrogen helps by keeping your joints

\"wet\".

Recommended use is like this: start cycle. If gyno symptoms present (like bloating, itchy nips, etc)

then IMMEDIATELY start dosing tamoxifen at 20-40 mg ED. This will stop the estrogen from exerting any more

potential. Also, start dosing letrozole at 1 mg ED. This will stop any further conversion to estrogen. Once

symptoms are under control reduce or eliminate dosing of ancillaries. For instance, for those prone to gyno

symptoms one might find that dosing tamoxifen 10-20 mg ED will effectively control gyno presentation for the

duration of the cycle.

In order for proper recommendations to be made I\'d have to know cycle specifics (such

as test dosing regime, cycle length, past history, etc). I understand that this type of subject might not be

appropriate on this forum so I welcome you to pose this question on AM (http://anabolicminds.com) where

you can receive peer feedback in an atmosphere of like minds. Also, PM me over on AM with a link to your thread and

I\'ll get in there and give feedback as well.

In addition, once you register on AM and post the question I

could refer you to a vendor that may send you a bottle of each FREE [of course, based on my referral

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif].

Bobby

[BigGulp]

GREAT info Bobby! Thanks! I will get my wimpy little ass over to where the BIG boys play and post my questions.