pheromone addiction/dependency issues...

[handtohandking]

I\'ve been viewing the topics in this forum, did my lil\' research on mones, and have come up with

a few issues. I\'m not tryin\' to criticize or anything, I just want to know your take on this...

1) I\'ve

noticed a HUGE range of results for mones: either (supposedly) very noticeable and even outrageously positive

responses...and then completely non-existent responses. Now, what EXACTLY does that mean? Is it because of the

individual\'s personal body chemistry, incorrect usage, or is it the person themself?

2) I believe a VERY

unhealthy dependence on pheromone usage is possible, especially for individuals who are desperate for a quick fix.

Now I know that these substances aren\'t SUPPOSED to be a quick fix and its been said before, but regardless there

are going to be many people who will use it as such. I\'ve seen posts (and no offense if it applies) of how

certain individuals have seen no results, plan on buying massive amounts of mones to test them all, spend all their

spare money on it, try extreme ways to increase their own natural pheromones, and in essence, becoming mentally

addicted and dependent on mones. I believe all these \"success\" stories on here are misleading a casual user and

making them expect women to lay down at their feet, when it\'s more than just chemicals. Yes, they may help, but

it\'s YOU.

3) Yes, the ethical question of mones in general has been brought up before. BUT...here\'s my take

on it. Why would you want to be with a female who is LITERALLY \"physically\" attracted to you and not physically,

mentally, and emotionally attracted to you? If these mones supposedly work like magic, these females will be

attracted to the MONES, not YOU. And what happens if you stop using them for some reason? Will insecurity and mental

dependency on mones affect you? If you\'re all about sleeping with as many women as possible, then I see you

wouldn\'t have a problem. And I know I will get responses about how it\'s only meant to enhance what you already

have, but so is plastic surgery...

Once again, no offense to anyone, just trying to bring up some issues which I

see. I\'m even thinking about experimenting with mones, I don\'t know, but I wanna know your opinions on the

above three points.

[koolking1]

my take is:

1. You get differing responses for all the reasons you mentioned and another one which

is that a few people have a better sense of smell and they are more affected by mones. a person with an exceptional

sense of smell may provide and exceptional response!!!

2. Yes, people might become too dependent on them and

spend too much money (especially the younger guys who are really longing for some female company without much

success). If one is wearing mones and is grossly out of shape though, they stand little chance of the mones being

the answer. It does take more to meet and keep a love interest. Success stories, hmmm, if I read a book on how to

make/save more money have I been mislead - I don\'t think so. People want to know what they are buying and by

reading this forum they are learning about the products that Bruce has for sale. They learn the good and the bad,

nothing is hidden - I call that an exceptionally honest business practice.

3. I see nothing wrong with

\"gaining an edge\" in one\'s endeavors to either meet people or perhaps prevail in a business situation. No

one would criticize a woman for wearing perfume, would they? - or working out, aren\'t those also \"edges\" in

our quest for affection and acceptance?

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I call that an exceptionally honest

business practice.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Me too.


Holmes

[Holmes]

Good posts, btw.


Holmes

[ironration]

1)
We do not know.

2)
True. If you cannot attract females without pheromone products the products

does not really help.

3)The effect is not that powerfull that you will become dependent on them. At the very

best is just a slight edge.

From a moral stanpoint: Why is wearing makeup, or good looking clothes or being

friendly any better. It is all things that you use in order to get what you want.

[handtohandking]

Thanks for the responses...

On the last point I made:

Perfume, working out, wearing nice clothes,

being friendly, are only PRESENTING yourself better on the outside. They all do bring some sort of biochemical

reactions on a real technical level with varying degrees, but when something purely physical (contact) compels a

person to react differently because of physiological manipulation, it doesn\'t seem like just an \"edge\". Once

again, I\'m not tryin\' to talk bad about pheromone usage, because I am interested, but I live by certain ideals

and it\'s conflicting...

I would like to clear up that I\'m not insinuating whatsoever that this site is some

sort of scam or deceptive, I\'m just sayin\' some of these success stories can alter a casual reader\'s

expectations of mones.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

In my humble opinion, the use of pheromones is no more than, for example, working out, dressing with

style or wearing a nice cologne. What is the purpose of using pheromones? Make ourselves more attractive, nothing

more. They won\'t put the ladies at our feet... they just make us more interesting, just like a good cologne

does.

I mean, for example, I am pretty sure that my muscle built body (without mones) achieves more than the use

of mones without the muscle built body (well, like I was before starting to work out). Well, this \"muscle built

body\" only exists cause I work \"hard\" at the gym, if I stopped doing that, I would slowly loose these

\"bigger than average\" muscles. So, it\'s the same as wearing mones and then stopping to wear them... you were

more attractive when you were using them, but when you stopped, you lost that advantage. It\'s exactly the same,

you stop working out and you\'ll also loose that advantage.

I hope you understand what I want to say...

English is not my native language...

Anyway, using pheromones is definitely not cheating!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
if I stopped doing that, I would

slowly loose these \"bigger than average\" muscles.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Don\'t

ever stop!

[handtohandking]

You see, there\'s a difference...

Working out, in the most general sense, is making your body

appear more attractive. YOU WORK FOR IT. You go the gym or train in your home, stay committed and sweat. Also you

probably change your diet to suit your needs and make sacrifices and take time out of your day. Even more material

things like cologne and clothes: clothes make the man, plain and simple, it shows you got style and take pride of

your appearance and that you\'re clean and have money to buy these clothes. Cologne, which is basically the

closest things you can get to mones because of this olfactory element, is NOT the same as using mones. Using cologne

is smelling nice, knowing what females want, your choice and ur knowledge of the brands and $$$ value, and again,

just making yourself presentable.

On the other hands, pheromones are chemicals made specifically to attract the

opposite sex...and that\'s it. No thought put into it other than \"This will MAKE them love me!\" and ingenuine

in a sense. A woman who comes up to and compliments you on how you work out and take care of your body, on your

smile, your humor, your fashion sense, or your new cologne is NOT the same as some random chick lookin\' your way

because your love potion is messin\' with her brain...

[ironration]

I do not see your point. Mones on a man does not mess with a womens brain anymore then tight clothes

on a women messes with a mans brain.

They are just tactics used with the hope of increasing attraction. And no,

there is no mone that will make a women love you, it does not work that way.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I do not see your point. Mones on a man

does not mess with a womens brain anymore then tight clothes on a women messes with a mans brain.

They are just

tactics used with the hope of increasing attraction. And no, there is no mone that will make a women love you, it

does not work that way.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I agree! By the way, mones make ppl

notice more than usual that you have been working out, for example. It helps to \"promote\" some of your

qualities.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I agree! By the way, mones make ppl

notice more than usual that you have been working out, for example. It helps to \"promote\" some of your

qualities.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Exactly. They \"advertise\" what\'s already there.

But if there ain\'t nothin\' to advertise...


Holmes

[CptKipling]

Just like women wearing push up bras, if there is nothing to advertise, you\'re stuffed.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
you\'re stuffed.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Holmes

[handtohandking]

Seeing tight clothes on a woman is visual, mones is physiological.

[Pancho1188]

The following is a dramatization:

Magically make men more attracted to you! Improve your

appearance and look better to all of the people around you! Make men notice you and women respect you! Get men to

fall at your feet and kiss the ground you walk on!!! Take years off of your appearance! Look sexy and stylish! Be

more attractive than you thought possible!

What is this magical product? Makeup
Did you notice how

you could easily interchange that with pheromones or many other \"attract-the-opposite-sex\"

products?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hav

e you ever slept with an attractive girl and woken up next to a goblin? It\'s called makeup. How\'s that any

different in trying to make yourself appear more attractive than you actually are?

The only difference is that

one is accepted and the other is almost taboo.

I won\'t go as far as to say it\'s proven because I,

personally, feel that women look better without makeup most of the time. All of my girlfriends hated makeup as much

as I did...and they were still the most beautiful girls to me.

If you didn\'t notice, I\'m not a fan of

makeup. Maybe it should be the same for me and pheromones...maybe women would prefer me without them...I don\'t

know. However, I use them because it seems to make the environment around me more sociable. Honestly, I haven\'t

felt any extra sexual attention from it...not that I would be able to tell sexual attention if someone smacked me in

the face with it...

[tallmacky]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Seeing tight clothes on a woman is

visual, mones is physiological.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I think your mindset on the

issue is a bit off, and you have a more unrealistic view of pheromones and their \"power\".

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How is a woman wearing tight clothes a visual effect? That

is impossible it is a physcological, it effects the minds of men. Men are hard wired to look at women and to

especailly take notice when they are revealing something. There is no such thing as a visual effect. When I,or just

about any guy here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif takes a look at one of Elana\'s pictures, it

is exploiting us I have no choice in the erection I get, hey where is our CONTROL?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif A bit off tangent

The comment about women appreciating a

man\'s style. That\'s bullshit, mate. Its not about his style but his ability to have a style, to afford one.

This is a satisfying effect of wealth. Same goes for nice clothes. By the way how come \"the clothes get to be the

man, to make him\"? Did he make them, did he design them, no he just wore them, same goes for those who wear

-mones. The guy who buys a certain pricey car or a nice shirt knows the subconcious effect it will have on women.

Nature itself is set up in exploitation, if -mones themselves caused a morality issue it would have been a solid

argument but as of now it has always been a passive one.

Besides we live in a cruel world, the dating scene

today is harsh, and unforgiving, people themselves are hedonistic, and not the most adoring and nice creatures in

this world. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Out of all this madness to worry about exploitation of

this degree is useless. It is a promotion tool as said above, besides if -mones were all that dangerous and powerful

don\'t you think ironation would have pussy packed up to his neck by now?....but NO!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[phinmone]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
stuffed.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

double ~ ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

no, serious.
i don\'t see

why do we have to argue about this subject.

<font color=\"red\"> let\'s all be friends here! </font>



what does it harm, if people are more talkative or chatty around you?! i don\'t see any problem with

that, it\'s fun!

[TopDawg2050]

Not only does it do all of the above, it helps me with my confidence too!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[tallmacky]

Its too good to be true, you can\'t lay down $50 bucks and be changed, its supply and demand if this

was, things would be different, eh? The world seems to have strict order the \"just my luck\" philosophy. Things

never work out like that the rules of life do not allow pheromones to turn your frown upside down, Maybe they can

give you a sort of sh*t-faced grin, but there are no miracles in life.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unknownshadown20]

I can almost guarantee right now that if we had more proof supporting \"mones\" and if it

meant that every women that use them would get far more attention. They would purchase them in a heart beat, are

saying they won\'t? Even if it was consider cheating like you might think, the universe doesn\'t care.

[Sexyredhead]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I can almost guarantee right now that

if we had more proof supporting \"mones\" and if it meant that every women that use them would get far more

attention. They would purchase them in a heart beat, are saying they won\'t? Even if it was consider cheating like

you might think, the universe doesn\'t care.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You could say the

same thing about Angel perfume--for men or women. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jvkohl]

Friends from the Ludwig Bolzman Institute in Vienna have detailed many aspects of sex differences in

courtship. Anyone who can read German, might do well to read their book chapter.

Grammer, K., Jutte, A., &amp;

Fischmann, B. (1996) The battle of the sexes and the war of the signals. In: Sexuality in the Mirror of Science:

University Edition. Hirzel: Stuttgart.
Excerpt: Translation by John Kohl
Human males who are exposed to female

\"copulins\" (15 minutes) appear to exhibit an increase in testosterone that lasts about 40 minutes. Less

attractive females appear more attractive and compare favorably with copulin presence. \"The mechanism seems to be

some chemical warefare induced by females which induces male sexual responsiveness or male competition and equals

out male attractiveness perception.\"
----------------------------------------------------------

Simply put,

women and men will use whatever means becomes available (and cost effective) to enhance their ability to attract the

opposite sex. Pheromones are just another means to an end. Personally, I\'m glad to take advantage of a rather

inexpensive (less costly than an Armani suit) way to help ensure availability of women who are above average. They

also are happy to take advantage of me, despite my use of \"bait,\" if not sexually, then certainly financially.

Could some women do better? Certainly, and the ones who can, typically, will. However, most women still do not know

enough about copulins to understand the terms of battle as I have come to know them. So, for this brief period of

time, we have men getting pheromone-enhanced attention, before the women turn the whole thing around and begin

manipulating men further through chemical enhancement of their natural charms. For those of you who don\'t know:

these charms are all of chemical origin. Estrogen levels manifest in female pheromone production condition the male

visual response so that we find more estrogenized women more attractive than those who are less estrogenized. This

explains male attraction to female facial features, breast size, waist to hip ratio, skin tone, skin

color--everything (because it\' the influence of estrogenic pheromones that conditions men to respond with a

testosterone increase to women\'s charms).
More estrogenized women get to choose whatever man they want, since

men almost always will respond to female pheromones with a testosterone increase. If a man wants to increase his

choices, he can only hope that there will be more ovulatory phase women available whose hormonal state lends them to

a more powerfull influence of male pheromones. Then, if he\'s smart, he adds some testosterone-linked pheromone

enhancement to his battle tactics. War is hell, but proper armament is still required to do battle.

[jamesdeanmartin]

I enjoy it when people who have never even tried the products or read through the research chime in and

pass judgment on everyone.


JDM

[Pancho1188]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I enjoy it when people who have never

even tried the products or read through the research chime in and pass judgment on everyone.

JDM

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

*Begin Dream Sequence*

\"Pheromones are wrong and dangerous. They

work to seduce women and render them helpless to your powers. The government should ban them immediately...and by

the way, you suck, JDM!\"

*End Dream Sequence*

Yeah, I hate when that happens.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[camusflage]

I have and love the men\'s flavor. Wearing it with his Cologne cuts down on the high notes well

enough to make it an everyday type of thing.

As for the women\'s, I like the original stuff, but REALLY like

Angel Innocent for more regular usage.

[oscar]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'ve been viewing the topics in this

forum, did my lil\' research on mones, and have come up with a few issues. I\'m not tryin\' to criticize or

anything, I just want to know your take on this...

1) I\'ve noticed a HUGE range of results for mones:

either (supposedly) very noticeable and even outrageously positive responses...and then completely non-existent

responses. Now, what EXACTLY does that mean? Is it because of the individual\'s personal body chemistry, incorrect

usage, or is it the person themself?

2) I believe a VERY unhealthy dependence on pheromone usage is possible,

especially for individuals who are desperate for a quick fix. Now I know that these substances aren\'t SUPPOSED to

be a quick fix and its been said before, but regardless there are going to be many people who will use it as such.

I\'ve seen posts (and no offense if it applies) of how certain individuals have seen no results, plan on buying

massive amounts of mones to test them all, spend all their spare money on it, try extreme ways to increase their own

natural pheromones, and in essence, becoming mentally addicted and dependent on mones. I believe all these

\"success\" stories on here are misleading a casual user and making them expect women to lay down at their feet,

when it\'s more than just chemicals. Yes, they may help, but it\'s YOU.

3) Yes, the ethical question of

mones in general has been brought up before. BUT...here\'s my take on it. Why would you want to be with a female

who is LITERALLY \"physically\" attracted to you and not physically, mentally, and emotionally attracted to you?

If these mones supposedly work like magic, these females will be attracted to the MONES, not YOU. And what happens

if you stop using them for some reason? Will insecurity and mental dependency on mones affect you? If you\'re all

about sleeping with as many women as possible, then I see you wouldn\'t have a problem. And I know I will get

responses about how it\'s only meant to enhance what you already have, but so is plastic surgery...

Once

again, no offense to anyone, just trying to bring up some issues which I see. I\'m even thinking about

experimenting with mones, I don\'t know, but I wanna know your opinions on the above three points.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

handtohandking,

On your first point I think it\'s necessary

to view both extremes with just a slight \"shadow of doubt\", taking much of what we see with the proverbial

\"grain of salt\".
In the cases of the most \"outrageously positive results\" being reported, we have to

consider among other things, that the target exhibiting the outrageous behavior may have done the same even without

exposure to pheromones due to any number of factors such as hormonal spikes or alcoholic disinhibition.
Humans

are complex creatures whose responses are a great deal more difficult to analyze in behavioral studies than rats or

mice. Short of being able to literally \"turn back the clock\", exposing the same target, to the same subject,

under the same conditions, at the same point in her menstrual cycle, once with pheromonal stimulation and once

without, we really can\'t make definitive statements on the efficacy of the products. \"Anecdotal evidence\" is

all we\'ve really got to work with, so we do our best with what we\'re given.
I might also add here that the

\"completely non-existent responses\" might be looked upon with a tinge of doubt as well, since one of the things

that I\'ve learned by reading these forums over the years is that there are many guys who routinely miss or

misinterpret blatant, obvious signals of interest from women.
One\'s body chemistry, usage methods, and

personality all will affect the degree of success one will likely achieve using pheromones, but I believe that how

well attuned one is to the responses has a lot to do with the wide variance of results we see posted that range so

drastically from \"astounding success\" to \"miserable failure\".

On your second point I can really only

see pheromone usage becoming an \"unhealthy dependence\" if someone is spending the money they\'d otherwise be

using for food, or shelter, or other necessities on pheromones instead. We\'re really NOT talking about that

expensive a habit here. If you\'re purchasing the products wisely, the average one-day pheromone application only

costs between $0.25 and $0.50 U.S.
I do see a concern in the cases of those who DON\'T see results wanting to

buy many more different products to see if there is something that WILL work for them. Hopefully these guys will

either find something that does work for them before exhausting the catalog of products (or their savings) or

they\'ll simply give up. Many have. Many have not.
I can\'t see that an unsucessful pheromone user would ever

become addicted to the use of the products; obsessed with the hope that the products will eventually benefit him

perhaps, but once someone\'s tried them all and still not noticed positive changes, I can\'t see that person

perservering in what appears to be a futile effort.
For those who have seen positive results I suppose there is

the possibility of a psychological addiction. But the vast majority of us who are mature reasonable beings know that

pheromones aren\'t the \"end all, be all\" products that some websites make them out to be.
If you\'ve got

the personality type that allows you to easily become psychologically dependent on something, you may want to take a

pass on pheromones.

You yourself answered in part to the third segment of your post when you wrote at

the end of the second segment, \"Yes, they may help, but it\'s YOU.\"
Pheromones are not knocking women

unconscious or brainwashing them. There is a guy that\'s going to be standing there in the aura of the synthesized

pheromone cloud, and that guy is either me or you, and neither of us is going to be able to \"put anything over\"

on the target female that she\'s unwilling to accept. We\'re just tweaking the initial perception.
Myself, I

don\'t think I would continue using pheromones in a potential long term relationship even if they had played a

part in the initial attracton. I believe I would want to know that I could sustain the bond without any artificial

means. But I would probably \"wean\" myself off them rather than going \"cold turkey\" just to be on the safe

side.
Your ethics are yours, and mine are mine. I\'d no sooner expect you to adapt mine than I would adapt

yours.
But something I noticed in a subsequent post of yours further down the thread struck me.
You wrote,

\"YOU WORK FOR IT\" in reference to the comparison of building up ones physique vs. pheromone usage. I think your

work ethic might be getting in your way here. You\'ve no doubt been brought up with the understanding that

\"there are no magical fixes\", \"you can\'t get success in a bottle\", and \"there\'s no such thing as a

Love Potion\".
And here you\'re presented with the possibility that all of that might not be entirely true. I

can\'t blame you at all for being skeptical.

I\'m guessing that your research took you to other

websites, because some of the phrases and concepts you used in your initial post don\'t look like claims that

people on this board make or take seriously: \"work like magic\", \"expect women to lay down at their feet\",

etc.

A guy who called himself \"golem\" once posted a

mantra (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB5&amp;Number=26093&amp;Forum=UB B

5&amp;Words=blade%20iceberg%20cake&amp;Match=And&amp;Searchpag e=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=26093&amp;S

earch=true#Post26093\") for phero users, and I think it much more accurately reflects the attitudes of

the majority of phero users on this board than do those colorful phrases above.

\"To gain confidence,

repeat this everyday when you put on pheros:

Pheromones are just the tip of the iceberg.
But I am the

ICEBERG!

Pheromones are just the icing on the cake.
But I am the CAKE!

Pheromones may give me an

edge.
But I am the BLADE! \" - golem

I think this outlines a healthy and reasonable mindset for

pheromone use.

The bad news is that as an Asian male you would be among that group of pheromone users who

have reported the least degree of success with the products.

The good news is that if you DO decide you want

to give them a shot, there are ways of trying a fairly broad range of different pheromones for relatively little

expense.
I\'d recommend you try the unscented SOE gel packs. SOE, which contains Androstenol and Androsterone,

seems to be one product that has performed well for Asian males. If you wish to try your luck with a bit more

\"risky\" a product, you could also try the TE gel packs, which contain Androstenone and a \"secret

ingredient\".
For about $20 you can get a pretty fair idea of whether or not the products will do anything for

you and be able to put those other issues into a \"first person\" perspective.

Your Call!
Good Luck!



Oscar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif