View Full Version : Science
Helsinki
04-22-2004, 01:39 PM
Just for info., I asked a
professor today who has a PhD in Zoology (he has studied quite a bit on sex selection, but mostly in reptiles) about
a vomeronasal organ in humans. He said it didn\'t exist. He said, \"some studies have argued that there is some
suggestive evidence for pheremone receptors, but there is any difinitive proof.\" He also said that there is
some evidence of a VNO in some primates, but that it is ONLY used for males sensing females in heat,
and never the other way around.
He obviously could be wrong, but he usually knows his stuff.
Today I\'ve TRIED
to OD on none, but the girls have been just as friendly as every other day.
Just putting it out there for info.
DrSmellThis
04-22-2004, 01:56 PM
You can tell your prof
he just hasn\'t kept up with the Erox/Berliner studies. Recently the VNO has been shown to be electrochemically
active in humans. What hasn\'t been determined is how important it is, practically speaking; absolutely, or
relative to standard olfaction.
Helsinki
04-22-2004, 02:09 PM
I would be fascinated to
read about this subject in a reputable journal somewhere. He would be too, can you tell me where to find the
research? There wasn\'t much that I could find through love-scent.com. Belgareth said:
\"Pheromone research is
in it\'s infancy and we are lucky enough to be involved with it here. How do we know that any of the mones bought
here or anywhere else really do what they are purported to do? I\'ve seen very little on this site that could not
be considered a placebo effect and very little has been demonstrated with good, tightly controlled research. Yet
some people on this forum take it as the holy grail. All the posted hit stories on this forum and any others mean
very little in the way of real proof.\"
I don\'t know, I just love the science of it. Link me to those reports,
that would seriously be awesome. Thank you so much for your help.
Mtnjim
04-22-2004, 02:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I would be fascinated to read about this subject in a reputable journal
somewhere. He would be too, can you tell me where to find the research? There wasn\'t much that I could find
through love-scent.com. Belgareth said:
\"Pheromone research is in it\'s infancy and we are lucky enough to be
involved with it here. How do we know that any of the mones bought here or anywhere else really do what they are
purported to do? I\'ve seen very little on this site that could not be considered a placebo effect and very little
has been demonstrated with good, tightly controlled research. Yet some people on this forum take it as the holy
grail. All the posted hit stories on this forum and any others mean very little in the way of real proof.\"
I
don\'t know, I just love the science of it. Link me to those reports, that would seriously be awesome. Thank you
so much for your help.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You might try James V. Kohl\'s
site, (\"http:// \") Tons of stuff there.
einstein
04-22-2004, 03:22 PM
If you\'re a university
student, your school library should give you access to some search engines like Ebscohost or Lexis-Nexis. These are
very useful in finding journal articles. Just search for \"human pheromone\" or the individual names of
pheromones. Some of them will have full text online, some just an abstract that you have to go find the hardcopy
for. Most of the articles are in somewhat obscure journals, my school doesn\'t have most of them. But Belgareth
is right, there isn\'t much research out there.
Helsinki
04-22-2004, 06:36 PM
Thank you. And ya, I\'ve
looked into those. Bio one is also very good. Nothing too \"hard\" as far as evidence goes. Oh well, it\'s still
fun.
DrSmellThis
04-22-2004, 08:02 PM
Are you telling us that
you checked out everything (studies, books) on JVK\'s site, and are dismissing it all as soft science? Bel\'s
above comments are sound when applied to forum \"hit stories\". But that\'s much different. He is also correct
about this being a young field. But it\'s not without some achievement.
If you finish looking at all the
easily accessible research, and still need more on this topic, I\'ll give you enough more to keep you busy for at
least a year. For now, I\'ll wager you still have enough to keep you busy, and will wait to post more references.
If your prof has a PhD, he knows very well how to look up Berliner and his Erox colleagues in the journals and books
referenced on JVK\'s site. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I summarized the bottom line of
those studies for you above.
BTW, I wouldn\'t count on your luck with -none OD\'s to continue.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
belgareth
04-22-2004, 08:14 PM
DST is correct about my
comments in reference to this forum. Information here ranges from truly superb to anecdotal to pure hogwash and
lousy science, depending on the writer. You have to be careful to consider who wrote the material before assuming
they had a clue what they were talking about. JVK\'s site has some really good information and the links provided
have mountains more. Another really good source of information is any university that has a med school or even a
school of nursing, the libraries and computer resource centers there are over-flowing with good data.
It is
a new science but there are some good researchers working in the field. I do not mean to discredit any of them. Like
any science, it takes time to produce a large body of relevant information if the research is done correctly.
jvkohl
04-22-2004, 08:24 PM
I\'m attending the
Association for Chemoreception Sciences conference in Sarasota Florida; lots of information on the VNO, little on
the human VNO. My position on this--as indicated several times in this forum--is that a human VNO, or its apparrent
lack of any known connection to a human accessory olfactory system (AOS) makes little difference to research on
human pheromones. The typical mammalian luteinizing hormone response to human pheromones has been demonstrated
repeatedly, and there is plenty of information on how this response may be generated via the main olfactory system.
Spoke with Celeste Wirsig earlier today about the gonadotropin releasing hormone neuronal innervation of the nervus
terminalis, which is one way to get from pheromonal input to the luteinizing hormone response. Still plenty of
people willing to debate VNO issues, but not many biologists who care whether or not it exists. Beliner\'s group
has marketing claims that depend on a functional VNO, but they are really the only ones interested in forcing the
issue with chemosensory researchers.
DrSmellThis
04-22-2004, 08:33 PM
Helsinki, just in case
you do finish with all those soon,
here (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=53349&Forum=UB B
5&Words=phero%20references&Match=Entire%20Phrase&S earchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=509
06&Search=true#Post53349\") is enough for the following month, assuming you explore the links, and
follow obvious leads contained therein. Besides the keywords I gave you, you also want to search for \"Pherin\".
To expand on what I said above vis a vis JVK\'s comments, Berliner and Erox did demonstrate the
basic functionality of the VNO satisfactorily, and have also shown that purported -mones that trigger the human VNO
also trigger activity in areas of the brain that process emotional content (etc.). However, they have not yet traced
and established a causal chain to link all this via an \"AOS\".
If they succeed in doing this, which I
might be more optimistic about than is JVK, it will still remain for researchers to deal with the other issues and
research gaps I mentioned in my first post above. JVK is correct that we need not get all worked up about the VNO,
on the other hand. The standard olfactory connection from purported pheromonal stimuli to GRH and leuteinizing
hormone change is probably good enough for establishing the existence of functional pheromones in mammalian
(including human) research. This claim is rendered more compelling by correlational, self-report studies that show
actual attraction and relevant behavioral responses to purported pheromones. This is because it is too common to
observe changes in hormones without concomitant, clinically significant changes in human behavior, due to the
extreme importance of higher-order, cognitive processing for humans. Notwithstanding, when you put all that together
in your background understanding, many of the anecdotes on this website don\'t sound so outlandish.
Yet
although humans have never needed the VNO to achieve pheromonal communication, the VNO is still potentially
important, as VNO driven reactions would theoretically bypass much of the \"biochemical and higher order
processing,\" and be more \"reptilian,\" so to speak. Such direct, \"more purely and simply neurological\"
responses should indeed be of interest to biologists and psychologists, were they shown to exist (and I think they
will be), as they would be more reflex-like and robust to hormonal fluctuations, and other of the greater number of
elements in the standard olfactory chain of events, as compared to an AOS.
Helsinki
04-23-2004, 01:01 PM
Thank you so much guys.
Very helpful and informative, it\'s great you\'ll help someone out.
Helsinki
04-23-2004, 01:03 PM
Oh, and I have continued
to TRY to OD on just about everything I have, but after a few days, I can\'t report any difference. (Other than
making my eyes water....)
DrSmellThis
04-23-2004, 09:05 PM
Addendum: Researchers
will need to modify their methods in order to establish the existence of VNO effects in the near future; independent
of standard olfactory effects. You can do this without first establishing the path, if your experimental design is
correct. I could easily design the correct method for doing this, as well as addressing the first issues I raised
above, if they have not already done so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Just a few studies would
be sufficient. (Someone would just have to make me a reasonable offer of support, since I\'m not hooked into a
university at this time.) But maybe nobody but Erox cares about the issue, as JVK says. I think this apathy is
\"misplaced\", assuming a long-term, big picture approach. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Perhaps the \"apathy\" is really resignation and resentment in disguise, since Pherin (formerly Erox) has
patents pending on everything under the sun related to this approach (e.g., the experimental procedure for detecting
VNO activity). But there are ways around that, if you know how to navigate the legal minefield while keeping your
balls intact.
jvkohl
04-24-2004, 08:56 PM
Conference follow-up: many
presentations this year focus on the main olfactory system processing of pheromones. Getting further and further
away from human VNO and accessory olfactory system, because the VNO is not required for pheromonal effects in other
mammals. Basically the VNO is one of two ways to get from pheromones to a hormone response. Since the hormone
response is demonstrated, there is no controversy this year about a human VNO.
Helsinki
04-26-2004, 08:18 PM
I agree, the science of it
all is the most fun. My thoughts include a) obviously the placebo effect b) \"hits\" may coincide with the
menstrual cycle c) when females are LOOKING for males (clubs, bars etc.) or are in such an environment, there may be
better effect.
James, correct me if I\'m wrong, but haven\'t most studies seen a better effect on males when
the females are wearing them? I mean obviously the male dog knows when the female is in heat, they\'re the ones
that respond.
jvkohl
04-28-2004, 05:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
James, correct me if I\'m wrong, but haven\'t most studies seen a better
effect on males when the females are wearing them? I mean obviously the male dog knows when the female is in heat,
they\'re the ones that respond.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Typically, the studies are of the
effect on women, though men find the scent associated with fertility more attractive. Matthias Laska presented at
AchemS reiterating that from what is already known about human olfactory acuity and specificity, there is no basis
for the claim that we are microsmatic (poor smellers) as compared to macrosmatic animals (like dogs and rats). In
this regard, I quoted George Dobb (not Dodd) in my book (from something published many years ago). Sooner or later,
people will quit making comparisons based upon what they think, and begin incorporating data from human studies, as
Dr. Laska has done.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.